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-   -   Am I the only one who thinks EXP should be based on coaching, not stats? (/forums/showthread.php?t=895472)

ForUntoOblivionSoar∞ 10-25-2016 05:56 AM

Am I the only one who thinks EXP should be based on coaching, not stats?
 
There are two problems with the current player development system.

1. It pushes players to go stat hunting rather than playing football.

2. It isn't all that realistic. A player usually REGRESSES after he has his best statistical season, primarily because of regression to the mean, but also because usually a player has their best season when they've been experienced enough that they really understand the game, which usually means they are on the precipice of physical decline (since they've been playing long enough to grasp all the subtleties of their position).

It is my humble opinion that two things should be changed. First, coordinators and position coaches need to be revived. Second, player development needs to be a function of position coach, coordinator and head coach modifiers and of the player's own development traits.

There could certainly be variance tied to how the team is doing: for example players who zone out or lose confidence might not improve even with quality coaching. And assistant coaches overalls could fluctuate based on how the team does (say you go 4-12 and have a very bad offense: then maybe your offensive assistant coaches drop a bit in player development).


But chasing statistics to improve players is just not the best way this can be done. Make the game more realistic by returning position coaches/coordinators, and make them more than just a ratings increase. Make them integral to player development.

British Bronco 10-25-2016 07:58 AM

Re: Am I the only one who thinks EXP should be based on coaching, not stats?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ForUntoOblivionSoar∞ (Post 2048538763)
There are two problems with the current player development system.

1. It pushes players to go stat hunting rather than playing football.

2. It isn't all that realistic. A player usually REGRESSES after he has his best statistical season, primarily because of regression to the mean, but also because usually a player has their best season when they've been experienced enough that they really understand the game, which usually means they are on the precipice of physical decline (since they've been playing long enough to grasp all the subtleties of their position).

It is my humble opinion that two things should be changed. First, coordinators and position coaches need to be revived. Second, player development needs to be a function of position coach, coordinator and head coach modifiers and of the player's own development traits.

There could certainly be variance tied to how the team is doing: for example players who zone out or lose confidence might not improve even with quality coaching. And assistant coaches overalls could fluctuate based on how the team does (say you go 4-12 and have a very bad offense: then maybe your offensive assistant coaches drop a bit in player development).


But chasing statistics to improve players is just not the best way this can be done. Make the game more realistic by returning position coaches/coordinators, and make them more than just a ratings increase. Make them integral to player development.

Completely agree. The whole XP progression thing is nonsense.

EA seems to think life is like a game of Advanced Dungeons and Dragons - find the treasure and become a better wizard/paladin etc. And gamers raised on World of Warcraft seem to think this is acceptable.

What makes players actually better is a combination of playing time, film study, training camp, and of course skilled coaching as you point out.

Madden cannot be regarded as a serious simulation of sport while it carries on with this "score a TD and get XP" silliness.

If a single programmer over at decent management game Front Office Football 7 can manage a realistic training and progression system then so can EA.

Or of course they could look at the brilliant and very successful Football Manager franchise (huge soccer simulator) which has a realistic player progression model.

Mattanite 10-25-2016 08:12 AM

Re: Am I the only one who thinks EXP should be based on coaching, not stats?
 
Please someone tell me I am wrong if so, but I saw somewhere on here (dang, can't find the quote) that the Coaches union states that coaches cannot have ratings??


So until that changes (if true), then this great idea can't happen.


But yes, I would love to see ratings on coaches (like discipline, chemistry, play calling etc) and badges too (defensive Guru, QB whisperer), and have their ratings impact player development (a lot of players only blossom or bust based on coaching), FA, retention, team chemistry, individual chemistry and to have Coordinators who have lower ratings, but can rise up in a proper coaching carousel.


There should be a coach chemistry type factor/rating too... the more a team changes its coaches, the lower positive impact on the players as they have to keep learning new schemes, but then an incumbent coach (like BB) gets an impact boost for having schemes in place for so long.

Mattanite 10-25-2016 08:14 AM

Re: Am I the only one who thinks EXP should be based on coaching, not stats?
 
And they reaaaaaaaaaalllllly need to fix the current coaching carousel problems for this to work: recycling coaches constantly, and the CPU coaching scheme bug. A great idea like this can be ruined by poorly implemented UI or AI.

Cajungodfather 10-25-2016 10:15 AM

Re: Am I the only one who thinks EXP should be based on coaching, not stats?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Geodude (Post 2048538847)
Please someone tell me I am wrong if so, but I saw somewhere on here (dang, can't find the quote) that the Coaches union states that coaches cannot have ratings??


So until that changes (if true), then this great idea can't happen.


But yes, I would love to see ratings on coaches (like discipline, chemistry, play calling etc) and badges too (defensive Guru, QB whisperer), and have their ratings impact player development (a lot of players only blossom or bust based on coaching), FA, retention, team chemistry, individual chemistry and to have Coordinators who have lower ratings, but can rise up in a proper coaching carousel.


There should be a coach chemistry type factor/rating too... the more a team changes its coaches, the lower positive impact on the players as they have to keep learning new schemes, but then an incumbent coach (like BB) gets an impact boost for having schemes in place for so long.



I guess technically coaches don't have "ratings", but they do have levels in the game. I'm it sure how that's different than a rating. I dont know, if seems like if you base progression off of just coaches, then teams with the best coaches, would have a significant advantage over teams with lesser coaches in terms of player development. That would be a huge flaw in a 32 man CFM.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

threattonature 10-25-2016 10:45 AM

Re: Am I the only one who thinks EXP should be based on coaching, not stats?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ForUntoOblivionSoar∞ (Post 2048538763)
There are two problems with the current player development system.

1. It pushes players to go stat hunting rather than playing football.

2. It isn't all that realistic. A player usually REGRESSES after he has his best statistical season, primarily because of regression to the mean, but also because usually a player has their best season when they've been experienced enough that they really understand the game, which usually means they are on the precipice of physical decline (since they've been playing long enough to grasp all the subtleties of their position).

It is my humble opinion that two things should be changed. First, coordinators and position coaches need to be revived. Second, player development needs to be a function of position coach, coordinator and head coach modifiers and of the player's own development traits.

There could certainly be variance tied to how the team is doing: for example players who zone out or lose confidence might not improve even with quality coaching. And assistant coaches overalls could fluctuate based on how the team does (say you go 4-12 and have a very bad offense: then maybe your offensive assistant coaches drop a bit in player development).


But chasing statistics to improve players is just not the best way this can be done. Make the game more realistic by returning position coaches/coordinators, and make them more than just a ratings increase. Make them integral to player development.

Agree fully. I had to drop out of CFM league that I was doing with some friends because they would stat chase to try and win the different awards for the huge XP boosts. I prefer playing a more realistic style and would miss out on creating the overpowered players due to not chasing stats.

There should be a hidden progression engine for the different players with factors like playing time, coaching, focused individual training that would automatically progress the players.

Mattanite 10-25-2016 11:07 AM

Re: Am I the only one who thinks EXP should be based on coaching, not stats?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Cajungodfather (Post 2048539027)
I guess technically coaches don't have "ratings", but they do have levels in the game. I'm it sure how that's different than a rating. I dont know, if seems like if you base progression off of just coaches, then teams with the best coaches, would have a significant advantage over teams with lesser coaches in terms of player development. That would be a huge flaw in a 32 man CFM.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yes, whilst better coaches can make better players, which reflects the true nature of the NFL, for 32 user online CFM you would be forced to create 32 user coaches all with similar ratings.


Levels are based purely on goals/accomplishment, they're not saying this coach is better than that coach at playcalling etc

British Bronco 10-25-2016 11:31 AM

Re: Am I the only one who thinks EXP should be based on coaching, not stats?
 
Front Office Football does a nice simple system for coaches which EA could easily implement for Madden if they chose to.

It rates all coaches for

1. Player Development
2. Youth Development
3. Player Scouting
4. Interview Ability (for the draft)
5. Motivation
6. Discipline (affects penalty rate)

So as the GM you get to chose which coach to hire based on what sort of skills you think are more important for your coaches.

Linked to this is the fact that Front Office Football uses hidden real ability ratings for all the players. So you have to rely and sometimes trust your coaches as to a players true ability.

A text based management system, written by a one man company, that delivers realism and is somehow light years ahead of Madden...

Ueauvan 10-25-2016 12:16 PM

Re: Am I the only one who thinks EXP should be based on coaching, not stats?
 
or hc09 with chemistry or hc06 for development ... lots of options
big thing for me is do you win, did i contribute to win etc.

BleedGreen710 10-25-2016 12:30 PM

Re: Am I the only one who thinks EXP should be based on coaching, not stats?
 
If u do auto progress and don't look under the hood at all the xp gains and stuff it plays out very similarly to the old, non xp based progression. So there's always that. That's what I do on my franchises. And it's cool that if I want to I do have the ability to look at how my player gained or lost each of his xp and confidence. I still don't think I'm a fan of the xp system but I've come to dislike it a lot less then I initially did.

Sent from my HTC Desire 625 using Tapatalk

CM Hooe 10-25-2016 12:39 PM

Re: Am I the only one who thinks EXP should be based on coaching, not stats?
 
I understand where this complaint is coming from given how XP was handled in previous Madden games, but the complaint feels misplaced this year. The vast majority of XP for players who don't win awards comes from coaching now, via Training. Simply racking up stats has taken a backseat to drafting well and team development.

You still get some XP for reaching weekly and season goals, but it's greatly reduced compared to what you get over the course of a season as a result of Training, especially for players with Quick and Superstar development traits. Further, there are coach traits per-position to increase the XP yield of practice drills.

There are still in-game XP rewards for statistics accomplishments, but the thresholds for earning in-game XP awards are by-and-large much lower than before, so padding stats is far less effective than in years' past. In the last game I played, for example, my tight end earned one of his weekly goals for catching all of two passes. You still get XP for reaching season and milestone goals - 1000 yards rushing on the season, for example - but likewise the XP yield for these accomplishments is reduced as well.

End-of-season awards such as Pro Bowl, MVP, and Best QB / RB / WR / etc. yield a bunch of XP now, but those are not directly tied to statistical performance. For example, to win MVP you almost must be playing on a great team (by record), or at least make the playoffs, on top of being a statistically great player.


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