RFF's M22 32-man CFM USER v USER Sliders

[Aestis]

You should use these sliders IF:

• You are in a NEXTGEN CFM with other humans, preferably 32 but a few leagues of 4-10 do use these as well.
• You want gameplay to be as realistic as Madden can get--this means coverage is tougher, pass rush comes faster, and your INTs & sacks may be high if you are more aggressive than an NFL QB would be.
• You want sliders driven by actual data from hundreds of games (strictly User v User games from After Work Football League), and based on per-play efficiency metrics built by an analytics director IRL. This set is not based on how I personally feel after playing a handful of games.
• You are comfortable with the fact that these may not lead to a great User v CPU experience--these are entirely optimized for our 32-man league, not CPU games.
• You understand that unrealistic 'stats' (e.g. INTs) sometimes are the result of your unrealistic decision-making, not a flaw in gameplay. Own it & adjust.

The Methodology:

Spoiler

Dating back to M15, I've been measuring our league's User v User game stats & benchmarking against the NFL using per-play advanced metrics (e.g. Pts per Play, Net Pass Yds per Drop-back, Air & YAC Yds per Pass Comp, Sack & INT rates, 20+ yd run %, etc.) as well as NFL weekly medians (to understand volatility) to balance our sliders.

This means hard data from 32 humans across hundreds of games are what dictate my slider adjustments, NOT the subjective judgment by the slider creator on how they think they should be performing.

So if I'm personally having a hard time running the ball, but the league as a whole is tracking great vs NFL run success...the run game goes untouched. Without this visibility into league-wide stats in USER games only, there is no honest & objective way to balance a 32-man league.

Again, this is all benchmarked against NFL median per-play success, not just game-end point & yardage totals. Sim leagues who run 6-minute quarters where each team snaps 35-45 plays/game might end up with realistic looking 34-24 type scores, 280 yds passing by QBs, 90 yds rushing from RBs...but that's off 21 pass attempts and 13 rushes. Despite calling themselves "sim leagues," their actual gameplay is incredibly arcadey. Scoring is MUCH easier in these leagues. Scoring in the NFL is tough, teams have to punt often, and our sliders are designed to reflect this as completely as Madden is capable of doing.

If you run this set, to succeed you will have to:

Spoiler

- Stop throwing it into the middle of sagging coverage. Hardest thing for most Madden players to learn. NFL QBs don't force it, and they don't try to thread tight needles 15 yards downfield at a huge risk of INT. Madden players tend to force it downfield into coverage no matter what then complain about INTs. NFL QBs check down & live to fight another day--even if it means punting.
- Get the ball out quick. Pass rush can come quickly. You better actually read Ds & have a progression. The "drop back 10+ yds and wait for someone to come open" age-old video game approach won't work.
- ID & adjust to possible blitzes. All the pass block sliders in the world won't make your 5 blockers protect against 6 rushers. In the NFL, 5 man pressure vs 5 blockers reaches the QB in 2.5 seconds or less about half the time. 4 man rushes vs 5 blockers reach the QB in 3 seconds or less about half the time. Better have your "hot" read ready when the D dials up a blitz.
- Get in 3rd & manageable. 3rd & long is just really really tough on these sliders, as it is in the NFL. Don't anticipate converting a whole lot of 3rd & 8+ on these sliders.
- Stop assuming a route will always get open because it always got open in previous Maddens. E.g. corner routes & outs are no longer automatic wins on these sliders. (But they can still be highly effective vs the right coverages with the right matchups!)

tldr; Good defense + limiting turnovers + field position = winning, with these sliders.

ver 1.3 - 2023 / Season 3
Updated: Nov 26

Recent changes highlighted in yellow

[usdarkmanx]

Re: RFF's M22 32-man CFM USER v USER Sliders

looking forward to seeing these

[Aestis]

Re: RFF's M22 32-man CFM USER v USER Sliders

I'll be posting the 'beta' slider set soon, but in the meantime some player speed testing results for the purposes of establishing a SPD threshold baseline:

Spd Threshold: 50
Avg WR (90 spd, 90 acc, 90 agi): 4.80s to run 40 yds
Avg OL (65 spd, 77 acc, 62 agi): 5.87s (22.2% slower)


Benchmarked against NFL combine #s over a 10y stretch, we ideally want to see an avg OL run a 16.9% slower time than the avg WR. In other words, the gap between fast & slow players on default 50 is too high (could have told you that just from eyeballing it though).

After testing across various spots, tentatively I find 95 to be the closest to the NFL:

Spd Threshold: 95
Avg WR (90 spd, 90 acc, 90 agi): 4.70s
Avg OL (65 spd, 77 acc, 62 agi): 5.50s
17.0% gap

While the timing isn't exact science (reliant on my hand-timed self), keep in mind I timed each sprint 5-10x to make sure I was taking the midpoint of my hand times instead of something flukishly fast/slow. So I feel this is overall fairly reliable even if there could be variance by a few hundredths of a second.

For context, last year we landed around 70-75. So, 95 would be the highest setting we've ever used. A few years ago I think 85-90 ended up being a sweet spot but recently it's been closer to 70-75.

Will continue to think/observe to make sure I'm not missing anything, but most likely this is what we'll be rocking with.

One note on the 'raw' time, namely an avg WR taking 4.7s to get 40 yds. That doesn't mean the game is too slow. We don't have exact translation from 40 time in shorts with a sprinter's release (which makes a huge diff btw, prospects train JUST on their sprint release technique which of course has nothing to do with an NFL skill), but the estimates I've found online range from a ~4.45 probably being closer to 4.65ish in game. So ballpark, a 4.7 in-game time a 90 spd WR is in the ballpark of what an NFL target might be, based on my research. Obviously the game is moving more toward MPH than 40 times, but let me know if you have read otherwise RE: the above assumptions!

[Aestis]

Re: RFF's M22 32-man CFM USER v USER Sliders

This is JUST a beta set, but for everyone to start getting used to it, I imagine what we run with after some user game data won't be too different from this:




The sliders most likely to change once we get some data:

QB Acc - IDK if this is low enough
RBK/TKL - Run game feels ok from eyeballing some user scrimmages but need data here to tell us across several dozen user games if it's too tough or too easy
FUM - Even at 52 from the eyeball test it seems like fumbles are happening a bit too often, but IDK really
FG POW - ?? 47 may be a point low
FG Acc - ?? Ideally would like this to come down a bit more, but if you drop too low, then things really glitch out in rain games at least in M21


As a reminder, we're waiting for the Scouting update so it'll be a while before we kickoff the league and get some real data. But in the meantime here you go!

Also just a note, I don't know that it would change sliders but we are playing with SS/XF abilities OFF, be aware.

[RogueHominid]

Re: RFF's M22 32-man CFM USER v USER Sliders

Aestis, if I may ask: is the decision to play with SS/XF off an aesthetic choice, or is it based on an analysis of how these impact game play, or some combination of other factors?

[Aestis]

Re: RFF's M22 32-man CFM USER v USER Sliders

Aestis, if I may ask: is the decision to play with SS/XF off an aesthetic choice, or is it based on an analysis of how these impact game play, or some combination of other factors?

Somewhere in between.

M20-M21 we ran with abilities ON as it was a new feature, wanted to give it its due. Even last year with the impact muted a bit, I don't feel they added a positive value to gameplay. I think there are some positives to abilities in differentiation, but also some negatives from OP abilities that are too arcade. The best I can describe them in terms of gameplay is net neutral and I'm not convinced they aren't closer to a slight negative.

However, outside of direct gameplay, I feel there are also clearly negative indirect consequences. We had members start to trade for abilities instead of players, the way you might approach a MUT team. If you're running with breakout scenarios on (we are turning them OFF this year for the first time), then abilities up the stakes even higher to where guys will spam stats even more to ensure they get that SS ability. All the things that might happen in terms of emphasizing stats for development/progression are amplified even further when abilities are another benefit you get.

In short: we call ourselves a realism league. I couldn't in good conscience pretend abilities were bringing our league closer to that ideal. We ran with them because they were in the game, but that's not a good enough reason to continue.

Just my 2c but there you go.

[AlessandroTaballione]

Re: RFF's M22 32-man CFM USER v USER Sliders

Hy Aestis,

Thanks for the great work. We are probably the best Madden League in Europe, Italian Madden league and we run the show from 10 years, always with 32 human coaches eager to play and grow their team

We think your slider set the most realistic in the madden paramount.
Hope you will keep it updated once EA start to drop updates.
For example, the coverages, all at 100, can ben reviewed once the zone will work properly.

Some questions: why you put Pass Block at 0 and run at 30? I noticed a lot of sack, once the growth of the DL is much more faster than the OL. Could be important to evaluate this voice once the teams start progressing.
Probably the kick at 47 is one or two points below the perfect range.

We are testing your sliders massively in our test league, and i will keep you updated if you want.

Really great great work. Thank You for this sliders

[Aestis]

Re: RFF's M22 32-man CFM USER v USER Sliders

Hy Aestis,

Thanks for the great work. We are probably the best Madden League in Europe, Italian Madden league and we run the show from 10 years, always with 32 human coaches eager to play and grow their team

We think your slider set the most realistic in the madden paramount.
Hope you will keep it updated once EA start to drop updates.
For example, the coverages, all at 100, can ben reviewed once the zone will work properly.

Some questions: why you put Pass Block at 0 and run at 30? I noticed a lot of sack, once the growth of the DL is much more faster than the OL. Could be important to evaluate this voice once the teams start progressing.
Probably the kick at 47 is one or two points below the perfect range.

We are testing your sliders massively in our test league, and i will keep you updated if you want.

Really great great work. Thank You for this sliders

Awesome, love to hear it! There's a long-running German league I believe who uses them too.

You may be right on some of the notes, I definitely don't claim the Beta set is accurate. Just I think it's a good starting point until data starts rolling in. For instance, FG Power may be a point or two low but I doubt we'll suddenly be rolling with 55 or 42.

RE: RBK, that's just based on feel so far. Data will inform that one after we kick off user games.

0 PBK & 100 Cov, pass rush is not faster than last year and is still slow especially around the edge. I would be shocked if we upped PBK beyond 0 in the near term. Ditto for coverage, zone re-works usually fix specific AI breakdowns around missed coverage rather than make zones play tighter across the board, but we shall see. Also don't forget MCV which is tough to use without Coverage/PRC jumped up, especially when pass rush is slow.


Your point about XP/progression impacting sliders is spot-on. Most don't appreciate that, and it's why I update the set as we go. My XP recommendations will be designed to stick as close to file start talent distribution as possible, but it's not possible to get that fully right. A great RBK setting in season 1 may not be a great setting in season 5.

[grilled_rooster]

Re: RFF's M22 32-man CFM USER v USER Sliders

Awesome, love to hear it! There's a long-running German league I believe who uses them too.

While i was commish of this league, it does ;-) Not sure what they're doing in M22. I left the league by the end of M21. I referred the new commishs to your slider set. But it's up to them if they use them or not. They better should to keep the high standard of the league

[Mattanite]

Re: RFF's M22 32-man CFM USER v USER Sliders

While i was commish of this league, it does ;-) Not sure what they're doing in M22. I left the league by the end of M21. I referred the new commishs to your slider set. But it's up to them if they use them or not. They better should to keep the high standard of the league

Nice to see a lot of European leagues about! (I'm from Sim Madden League Europe). This thread is invaluable as it's usually one of the few discussing sliders in a full user league.

[Aestis]

Re: RFF's M22 32-man CFM USER v USER Sliders

We are going to *try* to start our league this week when wk 1 rosters hit (and figure out how to re-start/re-construct after Scouting Update releases which could be OCT+ for all we know). So I hope to have some real data informing these sliders in the next 10-14 days. There are critical bugs so TBD on whether we'll be able to actually start. :-/

In the meantime, a couple of small tweaks to the Beta ver opening set:



QB Acc at 35 I don't see too many WTF throws... goal here is almost always to drop as far as we can given Madden default makes downfield throwing so accurate vs NFL. But too far down and suddenly guys throw too many way-way-off-target checkdowns. I started to see more of that when I dropped Acc to 30 in a very limited sample size.

One other note, I actually see the occasional Holding call now at 80, so upping to 90. I know penalties in franchise/sim mode are effectively bugged to hardly ever get called, so I suspect when that gets patched these sliders may end up being too high. But for now perhaps at 90+ we at least get the occasional call? Better than zero?

Would love to play with Fatigue more but I'm a little afraid of tinkering with this slider given Progressive Fatigue impacts this year, without heavy testing that I haven't done.

[Aestis]

Re: RFF's M22 32-man CFM USER v USER Sliders

We finally kicked off the league tonight.

Here's two SB champs from last cycle facing off in week 1. Offense is a bit too easy but game came down to a final drive to make it 30-27 on a 110 snap game. 0 combined INTs, so having one team barely hit 30 pts isn't terrible for how rough defense can be. For what this game is right now, not a terrible first showing.

Weak points, as always edge rush is way too slow. There was a respectable pass rush but it was almost entirely interior, which sucks. Both guys made mostly good decisions especially with underneath throws which just generate too many yards for low risk high % passes, compared to the NFL.

Not a ton that can be done with sliders to address these 'big' issues of pass rush & coverage. But we'll tweak the stuff we can control. Overall, glad we didn't see an absurd result from two recent SB winners.

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1149741470

Actual data coming in the next few days.

[zten11]

Re: RFF's M22 32-man CFM USER v USER Sliders

Auto subs?

[Aestis]

Re: RFF's M22 32-man CFM USER v USER Sliders

We're in business!

Unfortunately that business is ALL THE OFFENSE forever and always.

Even with beta slider set of 35 QB acc, 95 threshold, 0 PBK, 100 coverage/PDRT and 25 RBK, offense is off the charts:
- Median 67% completion rate despite those completions coming on passes that travel 40% further in the air than the NFL (!!!)
- Median of 5.1 YPC (NFL median target is 4.1)
- Median 3rd Down Conversion 47%, target is 39%

No surprise that scoring, when controlled for snap count, is approximately 50% higher than the NFL. Seriously, that is terrible. In past cycles our target has been around 10-15% higher than NFL on a per-snap basis. Imagine the offense in stock slider leagues! Wow.

Here are updates for week 2 (OP updated), this can be considered the version 1.0. As you can see... there's only so much we can do from here. At some point sliders are at 0 or 100 and you're at the mercy of the devs. I enjoy the feel of M22 quite a bit, but the balance is... well the only Madden since M15 this offensive was last year. Sadly the game is moving in the WRONG direction.

Two other minor tweaks
- Lost Fumble rate was very low vs NFL, so bringing that slider a bit closer to 50.
- FG success was slightly high, dropping accuracy a bit more and will monitor to ensure this doesn't start to invoke glitches. Last year the ideal slider was below 40, but kickers started to glitch out in rain games so we couldn't use it.
- Net Punt Yds was right around NFL median

Fatigue
I saw too many RBs with every carry or nearly every carry on their team. Been hesitant to mess with the Fatigue slider due to Progressive, but monitoring other popular slider sets on here, 60 seems to be a well-tested midpoint between the 50-75 crowd. Fatigue is one slider that shouldn't be different from CPU games, so we'll see how 60 goes.

[Mattanite]

Re: RFF's M22 32-man CFM USER v USER Sliders

There could be some merit for tweaking speed slider down to try and generate more pass rush. The assumption there is that DL generally come with much higher speed that OL and therefore a greater disparity in speed could generate more pressure... at the cost of coverage though. If the pressure generated was around equal to that of the coverage lost then it would be a decent offset but turn into a "sack or td" type offensive game. Just an untested theory.