Breaking Down Sliders... How They Really Work

[DrewBledsoe]

Re: Breaking Down Sliders... How They Really Work

So where do we want the tackle slider? Is 5% (Tackle at 5) the rate we want?

To make sure I'm following the discussion...we want break tackle at 0 and Tackle at 5?

Yes to take those PRO-TAK breakaway runs down to more realistic levels. It seems a difference of 5 between the 2 sliders is adequate. e.g. I have my Human TKL at 35 and AI Break TKL at 30.

Though if you use 0 and 5, you'll be getting one fumble per 18 carries in dry conditions (god knows how many you'd get in a "wet" game)..so you'll need to raise the fumble slider to either 2 or 3 , at a quick estimate.

[sroz39]

Re: Breaking Down Sliders... How They Really Work

I just want to say you guys are doing great things here. I was ready to toss this game away, before I stumbled on DB's sliders. Like I mentioned, the best of the bunch on here, which is no small feat because there's some truly great sets. Then I came across billharris' thread about the game speed and that made me bump up the speed at which I play at and made DB's sliders play even better, imo.

Finally I came across this thread by bill and wow...what an eye opener. I've been silently testing some of your findings alongside you guys while I wait for a patch and I must say, bill, you've truly blown this game open "under the hood". I've got a mix of DB's and bill's sliders going right now with some zeroed out sliders and I must say, it's like night and day how this game plays out of the box and how it's playing now. Each small tweak brings the game closer and closer to playing a spectacular game of football, in spite of the crappy engine.

Thanks again guys, and I'm really encouraged to see DB "working" with bill and some of the other guys in this thread to come up with some theories and such. This game's faults don't stand a chance against you guys lol.

Thanks again

[shadox]

Re: Breaking Down Sliders... How They Really Work

Yes to take those PRO-TAK breakaway runs down to more realistic levels. It seems a difference of 5 between the 2 sliders is adequate. e.g. I have my Human TKL at 35 and AI Break TKL at 30.

Though if you use 0 and 5, you'll be getting one fumble per 18 carries in dry conditions (god knows how many you'd get in a "wet" game)..so you'll need to raise the fumble slider to either 2 or 3 , at a quick estimate.

Have you mixed them?
Do you mean 0 tackle and 5 break tackle = more fumbles or the other way around?

You would contradict your own statement with that

Reading your last statement with the numbers on your peterson test, it seems like a low brk tkle also determines how "strong" the RB can keep the ball.

The question still is, if they are independent or not....

Have you tested tkl at 5 (where you expect more fumbles) and brk tkl on 0,5,10,15 ?

The other problem is, we don't know if, and when which sliders have a balanced curve.

Damn, still 3 hrs untill I can test this stuff

[DrewBledsoe]

Re: Breaking Down Sliders... How They Really Work

Have you mixed them?
Do you mean 0 tackle and 5 break tackle = more fumbles or the other way around?

You would contradict your own statement with that

Reading your last statement with the numbers on your peterson test, it seems like a low brk tkle also determines how "strong" the RB can keep the ball.

The question still is, if they are independent or not....

Have you tested tkl at 5 (where you expect more fumbles) and brk tkl on 0,5,10,15 ?

The other problem is, we don't know if, and when which sliders have a balanced curve.

Damn, still 3 hrs untill I can test this stuff

I might have mixed them up, may be I didn't explain them well enough. (I've been awake for too long, need some sleep for a while after this).

I was basically answering to PB, who has "zero sliders" except passing and catching. If he uses 0 BRK TKL, and 5 TKL (to lessen the breakaway run chance), then he also needs to raise the FUMBLE slider, which he will presently have on zero. Otherwise he will fumble far too much. I suggest he tries out 2 or 3 instead of zero.

I don't really see BRK TKL effecting fumbles in any way (but of course not impossible). I think it's a direct mix of The Fumble slider and the TKL slider, which would make sense. I'm assuming that the fumbles started because they Opponents TKL slider was 5 higher than the RB's fumble slider (Although we can only guess how this relates). A RB's ability to break tackles, isn't related to his ability to hold on to the ball (Peterson is a bad fumbler, he's rated 69 Carry on Madden, he had 9 fumbles last season on 380 something carries).

[pbz06]

Re: Breaking Down Sliders... How They Really Work

So what I'm understanding from your tests is that the Tackle slider of the defender is tied into the Fumble slider (or ability to not fumble) of the offensive player.

So you're suggesting to first determine the best Tackle slider, and then match (or go higher) with the fumble slider.

Makes sense

[shadox]

Re: Breaking Down Sliders... How They Really Work

Thx DB

@pbz

I would see them still separatly.
The tackle slider determines the tolerance of the tackle.

E.g. on 100, any tackle will be perfect and enganged from a wider range, means the angle,momentum,position etc. won't have that much effect. This overall makes the tackles more powerfull and therefor makes fumbles more probable.

So, yes, with high tackle sliders, the fumble slider should maybe be adjusted, but we should see them as following problems and not something to fit into a ratio.

=> Low Tackle slider will make the criteria to engage a tackle more strict = momentum,angle,speed,position coubnt more= chances of "perfect fumble" are lower= lower chance for a fumble.

[bill2451]

Re: Breaking Down Sliders... How They Really Work

tackle slider should be the first thing you set, w/out a doubt... set that so that you get the most realistic animation selections at the appropriate disance...

after that set the other sliders related to takles so that the game plays realistic

the same goes for blocking, first set the animation slider so its realistic situations, then set the result slider so it's realistic results from those situations...

first set Pass Block, then set Pass Rush

first set Run Block... then set Run Block Shed

when I assemble my slider set, this is basically how it will be done

[bill2451]

Re: Breaking Down Sliders... How They Really Work

if you do it the other way, say I set Pass Rush first then Pass Block, I could easily get the average time I feel pressure on my QB to be what I want based just on the pass rush... but then i will have to put the Pass Block to whatever fits my Pass Rush... meaning the blocking could look weird, suction blocking, not forming as good a pocket, etc

sp while the result may be the same, that 4/5 seconds of gameplay will play/look/feel vastly different

[Justin Clark]

Re: Breaking Down Sliders... How They Really Work

tackle slider should be the first thing you set, w/out a doubt... set that so that you get the most realistic animation selections at the appropriate disance...

after that set the other sliders related to takles so that the game plays realistic

the same goes for blocking, first set the animation slider so its realistic situations, then set the result slider so it's realistic results from those situations...

first set Pass Block, then set Pass Rush

first set Run Block... then set Run Block Shed

when I assemble my slider set, this is basically how it will be done

Hey bill, hows it coming with your official sliders?

[pbz06]

Re: Breaking Down Sliders... How They Really Work

thanks bill, shadox, and DB

[jshrop16]

Re: Breaking Down Sliders... How They Really Work

Taking bills ideas into account I started working on my own sliders this morning before work. This is what I came up with so far. I started everything at 50, except the attribute I was working started at 0. Did all my testing during practice mode, looking for the most realistic consistent animations. I was set up as the SS but did not use.

(1) CPU Rush Block:
Used Giants vs Giants- Good OL and DL
Offensive Play- Ace Dive
Defense Play- Man to Man
Performed 25 plays for each setting
-CPU Rush Block at 0- Took away too long for the guards or center to get to the LB and the OL took awful angles to set up the block
- at 5 OL still making crazy angle to get to LB consistently
-at 10-30 OL makes much better angles just the amount of time for the animation changed
->30 consistent Suction blocking
-I decided to go with 20 because OL take better angles to get to the LBs and more realistic timing

(2) Human Block Shredding
Used Giants vs Giants- Good OL and DL
Offensive Play- Ace Dive
Defense Play- Man to Man
Performed 25 plays for each setting

-At 0-5 DL dont make aggressive attempts to get off block even when they have the advantage on blocking Olineman
-at 10-20 consistently DL made good decisions with swim moves and came off blocks when they had the positional advantage.
->25 players seemed to spontaneously get off block for no reason.

(3) Human Reaction-
Used Giants vs Giants- Good OL and DL;Changed to Ravens since I did not see much difference
Offensive Play- Ace Dive
Defense Play- Man to Man
Performed 25 plays for each setting

-The main difference I saw during reaction setting was the FS and SS seem to hit their lanes faster with higher settings.

-Human Tackling-
Used Ravens (D) vs Vikings (O)- Good Run D vs Good Run O
Offensive Play- Ace Dive
Defense Play- Man to Man
Performed 25 plays for each setting

-at 0-5 The safeties seemed to have to come up and make the tackle
-at 5-20 seemed to all have consistent tackling animation. The main difference which I saw is Peterson seemed to average about 5 yards at (5) and gained about 3-4 yards consistently at (20).
-at 10-20 LBs seem to be the main tackler
->25 Began to see one arm tackles and unrealistic tackling.

Plan on working on more after work

[bill2451]

Re: Breaking Down Sliders... How They Really Work

really nice job jshrop...

every test that all you guys have been doing seems to be confirming my thoughts/theories and solidifying where my sliders seem to be going

finally done with work for the week, so i should have a good chunk of time to test stuff out I havent really looked at yet (mainly speed threshold) and then finally bring it all together

[shadox]

Re: Breaking Down Sliders... How They Really Work

well,thx.

But that's actually not the approached on this thread

If everything is working as it should, the slider settings for realistic animations/odds will cause a realistig gameplay.
Good stats are reachable with nearly any slider setting.

[yopis]

Re: Breaking Down Sliders... How They Really Work

Hey bill i just gotta say great work on this thread and all others that helped i cant wait for your slider set.

[bravesfan1984]

Re: Breaking Down Sliders... How They Really Work

bill, are the sliders you posted a while back from work anywhere close to what you are testing/using right now? i was just curious..i know you haven't made a final set yet but just thought i'd ask, cause i had a few good games with those. appreciate everyone's hard work in trying to break these down!