Sim vs Cheese - Lets debate

[P Shirls]

Re: Sim vs Cheese - Lets debate

Don't get me wrong, I still think it should be onball defense most of the time. But 100% onball defense is handicapping yourself out of some defensive plays where you mentally read the play, but the CPU player didn't.

That's my point.....sometimes u will play great defense but still get scored on or someone will successfully run a play on you and I agree with u that the cpu might not read a random play.....the problem truly arises when u realize that by playing onball d this will happen every so often, but ur opponent decides to play offball and mess up the equal playing field....that opponent refuses to take the same risks u as the onball defender are taking which gives the offball defender the upper hand....that's when u question the integrity of the offball defensive player...esp if he clearly sees that u are tryna guard the ballhandler urself and not wimp out n let the cpu do it for u....

I just feel anybody who beats me with that offball defense ain't really better than me unless they beat me playing a mans game, but that don't really matter to ppl who only care about getting the win at any cost

[ManiacMatt1782]

Re: Sim vs Cheese - Lets debate

I hear you. Really the only time I go off ball is when I am guarding the ball handler, and I recognise a play usually using guys running off an off ball screen for a quick 3. If I see that I will icon switch as the guy is running so I can be in position to disrupt the shot or if I am early enough, jump the pass.

[MustangMan]

Re: Sim vs Cheese - Lets debate

I just cant stand people abusing kobe posting and spinning around. If u double they can get a three...oh Mario chalmers stealing my Chris Paul crossover...the game could give us tools to stop lebron or at least make him tired. Their are ways to cheese but 2k seems to encourage it in some sort of way. If your open take a shot but u definetely don't need to run plays all game like college basketball.

[TheKasmar]

Re: Sim vs Cheese - Lets debate

the problem truly arises when u realize that by playing onball d this will happen every so often, but ur opponent decides to play offball and mess up the equal playing field....that opponent refuses to take the same risks u as the onball defender are taking which gives the offball defender the upper hand

Playing off-ball is a an equal risk. If my opponent is going to take his chances then so be it. Even the worst off-ball defenders still have to control their defense and tempo, which often leads to their demise. Although, given all the sliding that occurs when playing on-ball, I do give on-ball defenders more credit.

[Knighttime24]

Re: Sim vs Cheese - Lets debate

That's my point.....sometimes u will play great defense but still get scored on or someone will successfully run a play on you and I agree with u that the cpu might not read a random play.....the problem truly arises when u realize that by playing onball d this will happen every so often, but ur opponent decides to play offball and mess up the equal playing field....that opponent refuses to take the same risks u as the onball defender are taking which gives the offball defender the upper hand....that's when u question the integrity of the offball defensive player...esp if he clearly sees that u are tryna guard the ballhandler urself and not wimp out n let the cpu do it for u....

I just feel anybody who beats me with that offball defense ain't really better than me unless they beat me playing a mans game, but that don't really matter to ppl who only care about getting the win at any cost

If you don't play on-ball in 2k12 ,then you risk getting destroyed by isos. In 2k11, if you didn't play off-ball ,then you risked getting destroyed by backdoor cuts. Either way, there is no reasont hat you should look down on someone who doesn't guard the ballhandler. In fact, I question your skills for not being able to beat the CPU defender.

[P Shirls]

Re: Sim vs Cheese - Lets debate

If you don't play on-ball in 2k12 ,then you risk getting destroyed by isos. In 2k11, if you didn't play off-ball ,then you risked getting destroyed by backdoor cuts. Either way, there is no reasont hat you should look down on someone who doesn't guard the ballhandler. In fact, I question your skills for not being able to beat the CPU defender.

Let's not act like the cpu doesn't mirror almost every move u make when u have the ball, that's common knowledge.....and online matchups are set on Allstar and many ppl complain tthat the cpu anticipates ur moves a lil too good, and I play on HOF when I'm not playin online so that makes it 10 times worse.....given that info, is it that hard to beat the ccpu? Not if u practice enough, but throw in the fact offball defenders just use zone and mash the steal button all game and its a fact that the passing this year is exponentially slower from ALL angles compared to the previous 2ks...this gives the offball defenders who know the game well the upper hand over the onball defender who knows the game just as well....

Don't get mee wrong tho, if u run into an offball defender,or a cheeser by all means, play offball d all u want if it stopps them from getting an unfair advantage....my only issue is when u see that ur opponent isn't a cheeser and he plays onball all game and u still playing offball defense....I can't tell u how to play but just kno u can't possiblyy think ur better than him cause ur picking off the slow passes playing offball or waiting in the paint to swat a shot while that person ur playing is being hindered by an unrealistically difficult cpu defender....

As far as rating skill in this game, to me, its not about the most wins its about HOW u got them....when me and my boys have a cypher, we outlaww offball d cause we all kno it gives an unfair advantage....and as much as id hate to admit it, there is an art to playing great offball defense...but I don't wanna learn the art of how to successfully beat my opponent without guarding him myself.....that in itself is just a soft way to play (considering ur opponent isn't cheesing or isn't playing offball defense as well) and id rather not put time into learning how to constantly switch off the ball handler to get bs steals and paint camping blocks..but that's just me

[Knighttime24]

Re: Sim vs Cheese - Lets debate

Let's not act like the cpu doesn't mirror almost every move u make when u have the ball, that's common knowledge.....and online matchups are set on Allstar and many ppl complain tthat the cpu anticipates ur moves a lil too good, and I play on HOF when I'm not playin online so that makes it 10 times worse.....given that info, is it that hard to beat the ccpu? Not if u practice enough, but throw in the fact offball defenders just use zone and mash the steal button all game and its a fact that the passing this year is exponentially slower from ALL angels compared to the previous 2ks...this gives the offball defenders who know the game well the upper hand over the onball defender who knows the game just as well....

Don't get mee wrong tho, if u run into an offball defender,or a cheeser by all means, play offball d all u want if it stopps them from getting an unfair advantage....my only issue is when u see that ur opponent isn't a cheeser and he plays onball all game and u still playing offball defense....I can't tell u how to play but just kno u can't possiblyy think ur better than him cause ur picking off the slow passes playing offball or waiting in the paint to swat a shot while that person ur playing is being hindered by an unrealistically difficult cpu defender....

As far as rating skill in this game, to me, its not about the most wins its about HOW u got them....when me and my boys have a cypher, we outlaww offball d cause we all kno it gives an unfair advantage....and as much as id hate to admit it, there is an art to playing great offball defense...but I don't wanna learn the art of how to successfully beat my opponent without guarding him myself.....that in itself is just a soft way to play (considering ur opponent isn't cheesing or isn't playing offball defense as well) and id rather not pput time into learning about to constantly switch off the ball hanlder to get bs steals and paint camping blocks..but that's just me

In 2k12, you pretty much stand no chance playing off-ball 100% of the time against an experienced player. The CPU sucks at contesting, and you'll be missing out on the BONUS EFFECTIVENESS of USER contests. Therefore, playing off-ball 100% of the time should actually be more detrimental to your success rate against experienced players.

[P Shirls]

Re: Sim vs Cheese - Lets debate

In 2k12, you pretty much stand no chance playing off-ball 100% of the time against an experienced player. The CPU sucks at contesting, and you'll be missing out on the BONUS EFFECTIVENESS of USER contests. Therefore, playing off-ball 100% of the time should actually be more detrimental to your success rate against experienced players.

Yes the cpu may suck at contesting, on lower difficulties...i I'm a HOFer so its a bit different....but u have to get ur scorer in position to actually take the shot.....aside from the actual shot attempt itself, its common knowledge that the cpu rarely bites on moves that a human ccontrolled player would....and that's obviously the main reason why ppl go offball....yes the cpu contesting the shot isn't as effective, but not everybody in ur line up can actually shoot in most cases....and the movement leading up to the shot itself is constantly hindered by excessive zones and stealbutton mashing which makes running plays not as enjoyable as it should because everybody scared to give up points...

This all goes back to my main point....if everybody played onball d, we would all have the same disadvantages.....in the end it would be who could stop who the most, not who can play the passing lines the best or who can mash the steal button faster....that's lame to me....unless ur playing a chesser or offball defender, imo there's no reason to alter the balance by playing offball d to an onball defender other than being scared to give up points...

[LingeringRegime]

Re: Sim vs Cheese - Lets debate

Just play the game in the way you would want others to play against you. That is what I always do. Most of the time no one complains and bitches.

[DukeC]

Re: Sim vs Cheese - Lets debate

In 2k12, you pretty much stand no chance playing off-ball 100% of the time against an experienced player. The CPU sucks at contesting, and you'll be missing out on the BONUS EFFECTIVENESS of USER contests. Therefore, playing off-ball 100% of the time should actually be more detrimental to your success rate against experienced players.

This is true for the most part if you run plays...which I do. I can immediately tell if someone is playing off-ball just by the fact if I iso while holding down the turbo. If I see them mirror my moves then I know the CPU is the one guarding me. Once that happens I just destroy them in the post and run plays for the person they are likely guarding.

[MrBallaBoy21]

Re: Sim vs Cheese - Lets debate

In 2k12, you pretty much stand no chance playing off-ball 100% of the time against an experienced player. The CPU sucks at contesting, and you'll be missing out on the BONUS EFFECTIVENESS of USER contests. Therefore, playing off-ball 100% of the time should actually be more detrimental to your success rate against experienced players.

This was what I was worried about when that defense insight came out. Why can't bad defenders play bad D and good defenders play good D?

[VDusen04]

Re: Sim vs Cheese - Lets debate

My issue does not come with people who don't run plays all the time or those who always shoot when they're open. My biggest issues arise from exploits, which I'm pretty sure have all been mentioned in this thread at one point or another. And I get this feeling exploits may be able to be counter-exploited in same cases but the truth is, at that point the experience no longer feels like basketball, but a game of frustration management. As such, I rarely play online. It's the opposite of what I'm looking for out of a video game. But last night I decided to venture, to see if it'd ever be possible to pick up all the online achievements. In four games, these were the issues I encountered:

1) Opponent Using Every Player the Entire Length of the Floor to Attempt Charge: This move was often avoidable. I could see the defender standing still with his arms down. It sometimes led to baskets. Other times, it was fool's gold, as my guard would weave around five stationary charge takers only to be chased down and blocked when attempting an open layup. What's worse, the charge attempts over the entire length of the court were probably successful 5-8 times over the course of the game. The majority of these plays came from a defender suddenly appearing on-screen from the left. More troubling, three or four occurred with no turbo or running start. They happened while on the wing running my offense. Merely changing direction was enough to knock over my charge-animation defender and draw a frantic whistle.

2. Opponent Driving Directly At Defender Until Something Good Happens Without Any Negative Repercussions: One opponent literally did the same thing with the same player every trip down the floor. They'd take their power forward and just plow toward the basket. No crossovers or anything. They'd get bodied by their defender (or a slew of defenders) and they'd just recharge and try again until they were able to get to the basket where the power forward's finishing ability would lead to a very reliable layup or dunk. On-ball D, off-ball D and double teams all seemed to make little difference. I mean, it'd lead to a poke-away every now and again, but more often it just made things more frantic, playing to what they were looking for.

Further, they'd often streak their power forward after I'd scored. They'd inbound to a guard who'd throw a bomb downcourt that'd land in the hands of their PF, who'd then run past my not-quite retreated defense and score again. The computer defense could not break up the 60 foot pass nor could I, as I couldn't even see that far down floor. The ability to make such accurate passes over the entire length of the floor at such a rate of speed often meant my defense had no chance of recovering in time.

3) Spin Move: From what I'd heard, the unstoppable spin move had been cured. And maybe it's better than last year (you guys would know better than I). But one of my opponents was able to parlay this maneuver into a dunk, layup, or open jumper whenever he wanted. Thankfully, he didn't do this move every time down the floor. But likely 15-20 times he did. And each time, MJ was able to get an easy basket.

4) Zone Defense: This is the one frustrating thing I played against that I could understand the most. As in, I don't see zones when I play the computer, so I understood that perhaps my ineffectiveness was due to my own inability (whereas the previous issues seemed to be largely out of my control).

With all that said, I didn't really feel like I had an offensive set that could take advantage of their zone. They'd frequently double team the ball-handler at the top of the key, which in real life would be just asking for trouble. However, my teammates didn't seem to be able to recognize open spaces on the floor. And when they were open, initiating a pass to them (or a pass leading to a pass) ended up being ten times more complicated than it ever should be. While intentionally attempting not to lead pass (because I'd see someone is very open in a stationary position), the receiver would still move to receive said pass, often taking them into the path of a waiting defender.

Other times, it seemed my players would willingly run away from the open spots on the floor. Running offense against this particular zone also seemed moot as again, many passes lacked the sharpness and accuracy to be effective against my opponent. On top of everything else, their double teaming of the ballhandler would not allow me to set up an offense (because you have to stand in a stationary position at least for a moment) and repeatedly pressing the steal button with a doubling Jordan and Pippen would often yield a successful on-ball steal animation. Which leads me to...

5) Steal Abusers: I understand this issue brings up the "if you can, why not?" theory. And maybe that's true. If I knew I could poke the ball away all the time, where would I draw the line, if I drew it at all? Either way, it appears much too easy to pick-pocket on-the-ball dribbles online. As mentioned above, even initiating an offense became a legitimate issue, for there was a very good chance Scottie Pippen would be able to rip my point guard and explode into the open floor. Unfortunately, I found even turning my back to the defense was ineffective, as this would instead just initiate one of those "picked from behind" animations. I felt my best counter was to run around wildly, something I'm not much interested in doing.

Conclusion: In many of these cases, with time, I could probably learn how to set up charge takers like landmines over the entire length of the floor, or how to take a specifically skilled forward and repeatedly drive directly at a defense until I succeed, or how to spin every trip down floor to yield an open shot, or correctly implement a zone where I could double the ball-handler and create steals because I knew there's not an effective zone counter in 2K. But all of those prospects make me want to vomit.

Many posters are right, we're all looking for something different from NBA2K and who's to say which playing style is correct and which style isn't? I just know what I'm looking for versus what many online opponents are looking for are from two completely different planets. I find no redeeming qualities in random online play. It appears to be composed of two things: prayer beforehand that my opponent will be legit and inevitable frustration - whether I win or lose (contrary to popular belief, it's not satisfying for me to defeat exploiters, it's exhausting).

For me, online play will likely never rival playing against my friends or the computer. At least in my friend's case, if they begin trying to take charges the entire length of the floor, I can just pause the game, look at them, and say, "Dude, stop being a douche." Then he'll laugh in acknowledgement and we'll go back to playing like normal.

[youALREADYknow]

Re: Sim vs Cheese - Lets debate

User/User gaming will never be sim until they take much more control away from the User and/or you're both playing Coach Mode or Player Lock.

That's the bottom line and people are fooling themselves if they honestly believe they can get a simulation experience against ANYONE online. I don't care if you and your opponent think you're both sim gamers, it's not sim. If you can switch players mid-play and take over the actions of another body like an agent in the Matrix, then how do you consider that sim?

It's herky jerky button mashing at it's finest and the best you can hope for is a challenging, competitive, and fun game. For some, that challenge and competitiveness is what makes gaming fun.

If both users are trying to replicate every player's real life tendencies, then you're both highly unlikely to do a better job than the CPU AI using a properly configured roster and challenging sliders. In which case, why not just play the CPU?

Sim vs Cheese is literally a CPU vs User debate to me. I know many of you will disagree, but one environment is "controlled" while the other is the wild west. Users are cheese by their very nature and left to their own will always push the boundaries and limits to some extent to get the win. This applies to every game known to man.

When I want sim, I usually play Coach Mode or Player Lock. When I want to have fun without caring what happens on the court, I play a friend.

[ManiacMatt1782]

Re: Sim vs Cheese - Lets debate

User/User gaming will never be sim until they take much more control away from the User and/or you're both playing Coach Mode or Player Lock.

That's the bottom line and people are fooling themselves if they honestly believe they can get a simulation experience against ANYONE online. I don't care if you and your opponent think you're both sim gamers, it's not sim. If you can switch players mid-play and take over the actions of another body like an agent in the Matrix, then how do you consider that sim?

It's herky jerky button mashing at it's finest and the best you can hope for is a challenging, competitive, and fun game. For some, that challenge and competitiveness is what makes gaming fun.

If both users are trying to replicate every player's real life tendencies, then you're both highly unlikely to do a better job than the CPU AI using a properly configured roster and challenging sliders. In which case, why not just play the CPU?

Sim vs Cheese is literally a CPU vs User debate to me. I know many of you will disagree, but one environment is "controlled" while the other is the wild west. Users are cheese by their very nature and left to their own will always push the boundaries and limits to some extent to get the win. This applies to every game known to man.

When I want sim, I usually play Coach Mode or Player Lock. When I want to have fun without caring what happens on the court, I play a friend.

I don't think the problem is so much bad or unrealistic play. The problem is bad and unrealistic play being rewarded. Every basketball game I have ever played has had people playing bad defense and sailing at the ball constantly. But in most games reaches were called more consistently, and defenders didn't recover super fast so missed steals lead to an easy drive. If you make bad play get punished. Players will have to play more realistically or lose consistently.

[youALREADYknow]

Re: Sim vs Cheese - Lets debate

I don't think the problem is so much bad or unrealistic play. The problem is bad and unrealistic play being rewarded. Every basketball game I have ever played has had people playing bad defense and sailing at the ball constantly. But in most games reaches were called more consistently, and defenders didn't recover super fast so missed steals lead to an easy drive. If you make bad play get punished. Players will have to play more realistically or lose consistently.

Some issues are simple slider adjustments and will probably be patched. At that point, people will then move on to the next "advantage" they can exploit. The problem is that no sports game is currently sophisticated enough to provide an ultra-realistic game while simultaneously allowing a User to control any action at any time by any player on the court. You have to choose between realism and control and apparently some people refuse to accept this.