Thoughts on NBA 2K14 Pick and Roll Improvements (Da_Czar)

[videlsports]

Good Stuff I need Plays. spacing, and Pick and Rolls

[Sam Marlowe]

Re: Thoughts on NBA 2K14 Pick and Roll Improvements (Da_Czar)

@DaCzar: great breakdown and giving basics of PNR spacing in offense and defense rotation.

But I don't share your opinion about better spacing in 2k14. It's better than 2k13 for sure, but it's not good spacing. As we can see in the first example, Bargniani is setting the screen on the top of the key. Watch Shumpert movement. He should stay on same position and not moving towards Bargniani. Why? Because one player (Nash in this case) can guard 2 players at the same time. Yes it's true that Shumpert is then moving away from Bargniani, but Nash can cover both players at the same time. He should decide to cover Bargniani or Shumpert...

Second worrying thing is Melo cutting. He should stay still in the corner in case his defender decides to help. Again when Melo cuts, his defender can help against rotating player and can cover Melo at the same time.

I hope 2K will fix this on release.

As long as we don't see those kinds of things "all the time" then we'll be fine. Players make those kinds of mistakes irl

[svit]

Re: Thoughts on NBA 2K14 Pick and Roll Improvements (Da_Czar)

@Da_Czar: Don't get me wrong. I agree there is a light years difference between spacing in 2k13 and 2k14, but it is still not perfect .

I have expressed my worries about spacing and player movement in 2k14 because I learned from the past that I can't trust 2K when they say they made some improvements.

For example:
- for 2k12 2K implemented play branching and you also made very good video about that, but in reality (read in match vs other user) opponent could break your play by simply changing the defense from man to man to zone.
- for 2k13 2K claimed that they implemented proper defense contacts and that they paid special attention to man-to-man defense and spacing. The outcome is known. We got random cuts by teammates and bad spacing.
- for 2k14 2K again claim that they implemented proper defense contacts and that they have improved spacing. As I can see from the gameplay videos it's true that they improve spacing, but I don't know it's really the A.I. which makes the difference or just play.

Example:
- in 2k12 when opponent is playing zone (or offball defense) with doubling your teammates tends to stick together on weak side, so the opponent is able to guard two of your teammates with one defender.
- in 2k13 when opponent is playing zone (of offball defense) with doubling your teammates also tends to stick together on weak side, so again the opponent is able to guard two of your teammates with one defender
- in 2k14 again the same story. Shumpert is moving towards Bargiani which allows defending team to defend two players with one guy. This happens again when Melo is cutting in the paint allowing one guy defends two players. Same story is happening in third PNR action in your video when you showed 4-1 situation when Shumpert is clearing right side of the court after the PNR has been executed.

I hope those three examples are just bad player spacing (like they happen in real world) and that the player ratings (such as offensive awareness) have an impact here.

Otherwise I agree. Spacing seems better in 2k14 than in 2k13.

[ffaacc03]

Re: Thoughts on NBA 2K14 Pick and Roll Improvements (Da_Czar)

Beyond fixing those ocurrences and recurrences, a thing I would appreciate to see is plays/freelance execution tied to ratings, specially to Offensive and Defensive awareness. I would love to experience further distinction from good and bad offenses and from great to awfull defenses.

Teams with players and coaches without any regards on D, should struggle: to rotate propperly, to know when to play tight and when to play loose, when and who to double, with whom and from where.

Teams with players and coaches with limited offensive awareness, should struggle: to complete the plays as intended, to create and exploit favorable matchups, to know when to cut, to create space, to keep the ball, etc.

I fear that they might go the "perfection" route and blurr the line that make teams be/feel/play/look different from one to another, that is why instead, I want it to be related to the awareness of players and coaches. I am in no way or form suggesting that bad teams always fail to do propper defense or offense, but that they get affected more regulary than the good teams, by those impropper ocurrences.

YET, all editable, not only as an inssurance, incase the new dynamic rosters are still flawed, but as this is the only way that we can all fit the game into each and everyone of our views. Here is to hope for that.

P.S:
Also, for 2k15, as we have been able to assign plays to teams on the O side, I would love to also assign specific plays (more, like the new d schemes, as ice and such) to teams on the D side. Hopefully we get them implemented.

[Da_Czar]

Re: Thoughts on NBA 2K14 Pick and Roll Improvements (Da_Czar)

Beyond fixing those ocurrences and recurrences, a thing I would love to see is plays/freelance execution tied to ratings, specially to Offensive and Defensive awareness. I would love to see further distinction from good and bad offenses and from great to awfull defenses.

Teams with players and coaches without any regards on D, should struggle: to rotate propperly, to know when to play tight and when to play loose, when and who to double, with whom and from where.

Teams with players and coaches with limited offensive awareness, should struggle: to complete the plays as intended, to create and exploit favorable matchups, to know when to cut, to create space, to keep the ball, etc.

I fear that they might go the "perfection" route and blurr the line that make teams be/feel/play/look different from one to another, that is why instead, I want it to be related to the awareness of players and coaches. I am in no way or form suggesting that bad teams always fail to do propper defense or offense, but that they get affected more regulary than the good teams, by those impropper ocurrences.

YET, all editable, not only as an inssurance, incase the new dynamic rosters are still flawed, but as this is the only way that we can all fit the game into each and everyone of our views. Here is to hope for that.

P.S:
Also, for 2k15, as we have been able to assign plays to teams on the O side, I would love to also assign specific plays (more, like the new d schemes, as ice and such) to teams on the D side. Hopefully we get them implemented.

Love that. So far it's been hard enough to get perfect right. LOL. So for 2k at least, in my opinion, they need to perfect how it should work and function and then make those adjustments as you suggested.

[ffaacc03]

Re: Thoughts on NBA 2K14 Pick and Roll Improvements (Da_Czar)

Love that. So far it's been hard enough to get perfect right. LOL. So for 2k at least, in my opinion, they need to perfect how it should work and function and then make those adjustments as you suggested.

I know, I know ... but considering how far we have come since the days of double dribble to 2k13 (despite whatever its bugs, shortcommings or setbacks) and even narrowing it to just the 2k series; I think eventually (IMHO sooner rather than later), you will get it.

I am optimistic: based on the yearly effort put out by the devs and you; by how devs/2k seem to be not only listening to the community (yet we still want/need more, much more, specially looking at you: association) but also how they are integrating some prominent members of it/us (looking at you and Leftos); by considering the prowess of these next gen consoles and their supposedly ease to add content and without sacrificing graphics, simultaneously run multiple support programs such as physics, AI enhancers; etc ...

Then again, what I am also saying is that getting perfection, implies some imperfection within it and is that imperfection that may help to further distinct teams on both sides of the court (O & D).

Anyways, we should be in good hands and am looking forward to see some indepth insights and videos of 2k14, preferably next gen, but I´ll take anything right now, as the evident advancements made for current gen version just end equally hyping me for NG.

[Skopin]

Re: Thoughts on NBA 2K14 Pick and Roll Improvements (Da_Czar)

Czar, the best sim basketball consultant. Someone should hire him.

PS: I think in 2k13, if you call an iso play, the clogging paint and no spacing issue might not be as bad.

Sadly, calling an iso doesn't help (in 2k13), simply because of the 'uncoordinated movement'. Players will still run into the paint for no reason, drawing their defenders closer to the ball handler and cutting off the lane.

[StankonYa]

Re: Thoughts on NBA 2K14 Pick and Roll Improvements (Da_Czar)

Fantastic breakdown Czar

Shows what intricate work has been put in and how some little things go unnoticed in quick show videos

This...
took the words right out my mouth. Good work Czar.

[CK_ColdGame]

Re: Thoughts on NBA 2K14 Pick and Roll Improvements (Da_Czar)

Its crazy how most guys dont even notice these minor details. Glad you use your platform to school us all....

[raiderphantom]

Re: Thoughts on NBA 2K14 Pick and Roll Improvements (Da_Czar)

Sadly, calling an iso doesn't help (in 2k13), simply because of the 'uncoordinated movement'. Players will still run into the paint for no reason, drawing their defenders closer to the ball handler and cutting off the lane.

If you run an angled or corner pick and roll after calling an Iso, the other big loves post up on the strong side low block, getting directly in the way of the big rolling to the hoop. Even worse, the opposing big defending down low doesn't react to the rolling big so the 2 guys battling in the post act as a back screen for the roller to be wide open when the roller goes baseline. It's just ugly. I know it's happened to everyone, if you guys could follow what I was saying lol

[Earl1963]

The pick and roll is still crappy. There's another hoop game out there that nails it.