When will 2K have real time physics ?

[Kaanyr Vhok]

Re: When will 2K have real time physics ?

Uh, bull****. FIFA gets away with a TON of animation blend popping and foot sliding that the NBA games would get ROASTED for. They also have these sloppy physical interactions that don't line up that you can't see from the distance. Second place attitude my ***. You're sitting there IGNORING those artifacts in FIFA because they don't stand out as visibly as they would in basketball where the camera is MUCH closer to the action. In other words, FIFA cheats and you're ok with that. I get it, now.

Don't get me wrong. I'm ok with this cheating. Why? Because I don't see it when I play. If I did, it would break the illusion. The basketball games don't have that luxury. But! I'm sure you will disagree. Have at it. I'll say no more.

I dont have much of an issue with foot sliding in either game. I dont even know what blend popping is.

I'm saying Fifa is just better in the bigger obvious stuff like The movement in the defensive position, any type of contact, transitioning from a sprint to stance, a stance to a sprint, slow movement animations, bursting out of or tranistioning to slow movement animations and starting and stopping animations. In those areas its a wash. In my opinion the new UFC is the best fighting game ever and Physics play a roll in that assessment so I dont buy this different sport stuff entirely or even mostly. To me that is just an excuse. I dont even like EA so this is tough love and honesty. I played a lot of Fifa 14 and much of the 15 demo.

Almost all contact in NBA 2k is either scripted or ignored. Very little is ignored in Fifa. If two people bump in fifa you are going to get something that jives. Even little contact is a potential for a trip or a hindrance to one or both parties. You have unscripted fouls in Fifa and a lot of them. I never have the feeling that I have to get close to someone and work to avoid contact in NBA 2k14. Even if I did I would be playing against the defensive controls. I

The stance in Fifa transitions better in speed and when you flatten out and run with people. That is a legacy issue in NBA 2k. It always seems to lack directional degrees like I cant retreat diagonally. You also have the option to hand check. I would put that in NBA 2k16.


It happens in real life. Gauging it with control would give the user the option to use it a little for a small advantage or use it more at risk of a foul that you cant argue with. I would rather have choice and consequence over random effects.

In NBA 2k two players can run into eachother going for a loose ball and nothing happens. Its like there is a invisible wall and the game says hay "we dont calculate this stuff". Same is true with contact in the air. Ive seen two guys going for headers in Fifa 14 bang heads resulting in a physics based animation and a shoulder injury.

NBA 2k still doesnt have ratings for acceleration. It still allows you to stop on a dime periodically while running full speed. Thats what I mean about starting and stopping animations and movements.

The devs would be wise to not make excuses and take note. They did the same thing with PES last gen.

[Sundown]

When will 2K have real time physics ?

I dont have much of an issue with foot sliding in either game. I dont even know what blend popping is.

I'm saying Fifa is just better in the bigger obvious stuff like The movement in the defensive position, any type of contact, transitioning from a sprint to stance, a stance to a sprint, slow movement animations, bursting out of or tranistioning two slow movement animations and starting and stopping animations. In those areas its a wash. In my opinion the new UFC is the best fighting game ever and Physics play a roll in that assessment so I dont buy this different sport stuff entirely or even mostly. To me that is just an excuse. I dont even like EA so this is tough love and honesty. I played a lot of Fifa 14 and much of the 15 demo.

Almost all contact in NBA 2k is either scripted or ignored. Very little is ignored in Fifa. If two people bump in fifa you are going to get something that jives. Even little contact is a potential for a trip or a hindrance to one or both parties. You have unscripted fouls in Fifa and a lot of them. I never have the feeling that I have to get close to someone and work to avoid contact in NBA 2k14. Even if I did I would be playing against the defensive controls. I

Still not very good comparisons.

UFC only deals with contact between two possible opponents, who are almost always facing each other. It's significantly easier to layer inverse kinetics driven by physics on top of animations in that situation to get a convincing effect. And there is very little actual movement of the avatars in relation to each other in terms of differing speeds, angles, and what likely animation each fighter will be in.

And how are most of the hits and grapples not two-man animations? You know, the thing that's railed against continually?

In terms of comparisons to FIFA, if you expanded the 2K court 20 times and had possible player contact only intermittently instead of guaranteeing it constantly, you would also feel like you didn't have to work to avoid contact. That's what a soccer simulation gets to deal with. In basketball, you don't have occasional contact here and there. You have it constantly, and there can be contact with as many as 3 or more players at the same time. The issue becomes worse when we consider off ball players whose job is entirely to run into and avoid each other in tiny lanes and clusters of bodies, without the luxury of just taking other players or themselves out on contact like in football.

In addition, you would NOT want every little contact being potential for a trip in a basketball simulation. It is so much easier to register any contact to produce a very visible and obvious collision where you lose control of the player (the result of a trip or a flop) than it is to simulate subtle and constant contact between 2-4 players that redirects each of their paths in a very confined space-- all the while trying to maintain a believable dribble, which may be more difficult in some respects than dribbling in soccer. The last time a game tried to base their game entirely around a dribble engine, we got "Ball-Tek". And Elite before that.

The same applies with your header vs loose ball example. Most contact in basketball does not take players out of the play-- especially since players are trying to scramble through contact. The fact that almost any contact in soccer leads to a flop is actually a godsend for developers. Play a collision animation (probably a 2-man one), call it a day.

I don't know that much about soccer and I can already surmise how some of the interactions and physics may be implemented. I am much more intimately familiar with basketball and have been thinking about this issue for years and I still don't have solid answers on how certain interactions would be best dealt with and solved. Basketball is simply one of the most dynamic sports in terms of physical contact-- in terms of direction and facing that contact can come from, in terms of when that contact can come and what state a player might be in, and in terms of the constraints the results of that contact have to fall in (the player can't simply be out of the play but still responsive within a very small section of court and with just the right loss of responsiveness).

I can guarantee you that if you take 10 FIFA players, put them in the space the size of a few goal boxes, and then shrink the goal itself to a player's body width and have them try to score on that with all the contact that would cause, FIFA would look and play as bad as 2K and likely worse.

Those are simply the facts. And pointing to one game that limits contact to two players with predictable orientations to each other in a tiny space-- and another where contact is intermittent over a large playfield rather than practically how the game is played does not change those realities. Because the reality is that 2K has to deal with some of the worst of those two situations without the benefits and simplifications either of those two situations might provide.

At any rate, it looks like 2K is taking small strides in the physics department. No one has mentioned that the clip of Curry being subtly bumped by Melo looks driven by physics. That sort of thing is too unpredictable to script. And people used to complain about limbs clipping through other players bodies-- but next gen 2K had already started to address that, again, to no one's applause. I hope better ragdolls are next, but it seems like 2K is just about to take a foray into this with contact in the paint.

I absolutely agree that 2K needs to focus on the momentum and foot planting aspects of the game, and when that happens, the game will take a transcendental leap-- but the solution is not to point to other games that deal with completely different constraints and call it an excuse if 2K has not solved their own particular problem in its own unique context yet.

[JasonMartin]

Re: When will 2K have real time physics ?

real time physics is going to require an entirely new game engine (i believe) and at that point we are getting an essentially 100% new game.

You make it sound like it's a problem?

If anyting, 2K should strive for that and should actually be working on it, right now. They need to take the step sometime. Or are they going to wait again until the NEXT generation of consoles gets released, which will be in 2021. That's too long.

The current 2K game is still influenced by what we had on the old consoles. They changed a lot but there is still a part of DNA that they kept.

[luda06]

Re: When will 2K have real time physics ?

I don't believe the game needs real-time physics. 2K needs more simplification, if anything. Greater control comes in the form of the game mechanics being less complex.

Isomotion should be in consideration of being canned. How about a one button cross-over, like the old days? A defender should be susceptible to a cross-over if he's out of position. Period. Oh, is that person a poor ball-handler? Well, press the steal button. Poorly timed steal? The defender is now either out of position, or picks up a foul. End of story.

There won't be any need to wonder where the foul was, or watch an instant replay and see a defender's hand clip through body parts, or even the ball. Why? Because everything will be sewn up nicely by animations that signal the player as to what his or her limitations are in every scenario.

Here's an analogy: Developed societies have given up some of their freedoms in exchange for security. In turn, that added security allowed for societies to turn to what's important in their lives. In other words, 2K should consider restricting or cutting down unnecessary gameplay mechanics in order for everyone to focus on the bigger picture, because animations and physics aren't it.

[Kaanyr Vhok]

Re: When will 2K have real time physics ?

Still not very good comparisons.

UFC only deals with contact between two possible opponents, who are almost always facing each other. It's significantly easier to layer inverse kinetics driven by physics on top of animations in that situation to get a convincing effect. And there is very little actual movement of the avatars in relation to each other in terms of differing speeds, angles, and what likely animation each fighter will be in.

UFC's physics and animation system gives it a unique edge over every fighting game. Its little things but its a lot to build on. This is the only UFC game where if you are posturing against the cage limbs will bend to gain leverage on the cage instead of sliding both parties closer to the middle so the feet are on the floor.

Its not common but I have seen guys land in an unscripted position while the game continues-to-play on allowing you to posture to a scripted position or fight in some rare odd unscripted tangle. This is something they can build on. If EA is ambitious enough (loaded question) they would have the means to increase the amount of possible animations to the point where the entire ground game feels unscripted.

Ive also grappled people in mid high kick pinning their leg in the grapple leaving them on one leg making for an extremely easy trip.

And how are most of the hits and grapples not two-man animations? You know, the thing that's railed against continually?

Agreed

In terms of comparisons to FIFA, if you expanded the 2K court 20 times and had possible player contact only intermittently instead of guaranteeing it constantly, you would also feel like you didn't have to work to avoid contact.

You are making both games to be more different than they really are. FIFA doesnt have better contact physics because its on a field or its soccer it has better contact physics because it has better contact physics. If Fifa was an indoor gym soccer game it would still have better physics.

That's what a soccer simulation gets to deal with. In basketball, you don't have occasional contact here and there. You have it constantly, and there can be contact with as many as 3 or more players at the same time. The issue becomes worse when we consider off ball players whose job is entirely to run into and avoid each other in tiny lanes and clusters of bodies, without the luxury of just taking other players or themselves out on contact like in football.

Have you played the Fifa demo? Players are posting up and jostling for position besides while offball defensive contact is a legacy issue in 2k hoops its not what I was referring to and it looks like it was addressed in 2k15.

In addition, you would NOT want every little contact being potential for a trip in a basketball simulation. It is so much easier to register any contact to produce a very visible and obvious collision where you lose control of the player (the result of a trip or a flop) than it is to simulate subtle and constant contact between 2-4 players that redirects each of their paths in a very confined space-- all the while trying to maintain a believable dribble, which may be more difficult in some respects than dribbling in soccer. The last time a game tried to base their game entirely around a dribble engine, we got "Ball-Tek". And Elite before that.

If guys are running full speed veering into their path should result in a possible trip scenario even if the contact is light. If this happens at a realistic rate its good. It never happens in 2k hoops. Its not even a foul unless the offensive player brings them into a scripted shooting animation.

I did not mention anything about ball physics. Thats not to say Visual Concepts cant learn from Fifa's ball physics. Improving dribble physics is more of a process. I have more patience in that area. Its easier to program a genius chess AI than it is to program real time dribbling, with ball protection.

The same applies with your header vs loose ball example. Most contact in basketball does not take players out of the play-- especially since players are trying to scramble through contact. The fact that almost any contact in soccer leads to a flop is actually a godsend for developers. Play a collision animation (probably a 2-man one), call it a day.

Most contact in soccer does not end in a flop. Major contact maybe.. yeah. What I'm saying is Fifa calculates all contact including the majority of the little stuff that either does not take players to the grass or if it does its not major enough to milk so they hop right up. The animation doesn't always represent the the physics well but its better than clipping and invisible walls.

I don't know that much about soccer and I can already surmise how some of the interactions and physics may be implemented. I am much more intimately familiar with basketball and have been thinking about this issue for years and I still don't have solid answers on how certain interactions would be best dealt with and solved. Basketball is simply one of the most dynamic sports in terms of physical contact-- in terms of direction and facing that contact can come from, in terms of when that contact can come and what state a player might be in, and in terms of the constraints the results of that contact have to fall in (the player can't simply be out of the play but still responsive within a very small section of court and with just the right loss of responsiveness).

I can guarantee you that if you take 10 FIFA players, put them in the space the size of a few goal boxes, and then shrink the goal itself to a player's body width and have them try to score on that with all the contact that would cause, FIFA would look and play as bad as 2K and likely worse.

Those are simply the facts. And pointing to one game that limits contact to two players with predictable orientations to each other in a tiny space-- and another where contact is intermittent over a large playfield rather than practically how the game is played does not change those realities. Because the reality is that 2K has to deal with some of the worst of those two situations without the benefits and simplifications either of those two situations might provide.

At any rate, it looks like 2K is taking small strides in the physics department. No one has mentioned that the clip of Curry being subtly bumped by Melo looks driven by physics. That sort of thing is too unpredictable to script. And people used to complain about limbs clipping through other players bodies-- but next gen 2K had already started to address that, again, to no one's applause. I hope better ragdolls are next, but it seems like 2K is just about to take a foray into this with contact in the paint.

I absolutely agree that 2K needs to focus on the momentum and foot planting aspects of the game, and when that happens, the game will take a transcendental leap-- but the solution is not to point to other games that deal with completely different constraints and call it an excuse if 2K has not solved their own particular problem in its own unique context yet.

Play the demo. It has nothing to do with the size of the field. Fifa has better defensive controls, movement animations that are easier to control and gauge. It calculates minor contact. The officials call fouls on, ignore or card you for unscripted contact. This ref AI is transferable into a basketball game.

We would need strong enough defensive controls so the defensive players have the ability to not just stay in front of their opponent but also to avoid initiating contact with them.

[Sports fanantic]

Re: When will 2K have real time physics ?

Dnt EA make this game? If so feel cheated on Madden

This is EA Crown jewels when it comes to any Game that EA produce. So of course they are going to put more effort into this than Madden

[Boilerbuzz]

When will 2K have real time physics ?

You are making both games to be more different than they really are. FIFA doesnt have better contact physics because its on a field or its soccer it has better contact physics because it has better contact physics. If Fifa was an indoor gym soccer game it would still have better physics.

What does "better contact physics" mean? More accurate? More varied responses? The fact that basketball has to deal with a tighter view means it can get away with collisions that's don't line up like they do in FIFA. And as precise as the movement needs to be in basketball, you can't get away with the limited steering you get in the FIFA jostling cases. Then there is the vertical plane that basketball has to deal with SIGNIFICANTLY more than soccer.

You make a good and fair case for your point, so I won't beat this to the ground. I just want to reiterate that the differences in the dynamics of the sport and video game lends FIFA quite a few advantages. But if you don't agree, that's fine.

[Kaanyr Vhok]

Re: When will 2K have real time physics ?

What does "better contact physics" mean? More accurate? More varied responses? The fact that basketball has to deal with a tighter view means it can get away with collisions that's don't line up like they do in FIFA. And as precise as the movement needs to be in basketball, you can't get away with the limited steering you get in the FIFA jostling cases. Then there is the vertical plane that basketball has to deal with SIGNIFICANTLY more than soccer.

You make a good and fair case for your point, so I won't beat this to the ground. I just want to reiterate that the differences in the dynamics of the sport and video game lends FIFA quite a few advantages. But if you don't agree, that's fine.

What does "better contact physics" mean? More accurate? More varied responses? The fact that basketball has to deal with a tighter view means it can get away with collisions that's don't line up like they do in FIFA. And as precise as the movement needs to be in basketball, you can't get away with the limited steering you get in the FIFA jostling cases. Then there is the vertical plane that basketball has to deal with SIGNIFICANTLY more than soccer.

You make a good and fair case for your point, so I won't beat this to the ground. I just want to reiterate that the differences in the dynamics of the sport and video game lends FIFA quite a few advantages. But if you don't agree, that's fine.

I’ll give some detailed examples. This is the forum for constructive criticism and the more I examine what Fifa does well the more im reminded about how NBA 2k14 has tools that Fifa doesn’t.

There are three areas in Fifa’s gameplay that are pacing NBA 2k in quality, contact, defensive controls and acceleration.


Fifa has big collisions, in air collisions, lose ball collisions, the contact with players who are on the ground. Those are the obvious examples because they are all but missing from NBA 2k14

When a defensive player trails an offensive player in 2k14 and collides with them from behind while they are both moving in the same direction the defensive player will get bumped backwards and there is never a foul. This could not be handled any worse. If the same occurs in Fifa it could be a foul if there is a significant tripping collision otherwise they ride with them while the defender has the option to grab jersey.

If the defensive player approaches from the side in 2k14 they won’t engage contact and ride with the offensive player like the picture of George and Durant. If the defensive player moves into their path with any amount of speed there is not threat of a foul. If the defensive player is giving ground and there is contact of the sort that rarely warrants a whistle its either a restrictive scripted bump that prevents the offensive player from moving or the defensive player bounces off. This is why running through the baseline behind the basket like Steve Nash is impossible.

In Fifa the defender has their shoulders facing the offensive player from many angles and many speeds. When they come in to contact if its subtle. The offensive player will fend them off with their hands and the defensive player has the option to grab slightly or excessively depending on how long you tap the button. Defensive players can usually get away with hand contact in the NBA when they are giving ground and offensive players are always pushing off. This could translate better in NBA 2k which actually uses its right stick on defense. The problem with 2k14 was the stance didn’t turn its hips and give ground with the player driving well. That’s where the defensive controls come into play.

Both games have the same basic philosophy with the stance. Both stances are bouncier and faster at a distance before you hold the stance button. Both games allow you to Turbo in the stance. The difference with Fifa is that players transition better at different speeds and angles out and into the stance. Also in Fifa the control is adjusted based on distance and not holding the button. On face I would say that isn’t the best way to animate the defender but it works for Fifa. By narrowing the controls based on distance it means you have more time to recover when you are faked out from further away and you are more likely to stay close to someone when they beat you in a phone booth. Its easier to stick with someone and it does not feel cheap.

Defenders turn their shoulders and exploded backwards faster and at more angles in Fifa. In comparison NBA 2k has always felt sluggish in this area.

We need an acceleration rating. If taller athletes had the faster speed ratings they deserve smaller athletes would need that relative acceleration advantage to distinguish their advantage. High acceleration players in Fifa feel more explosive. Imagine the difference between a Bill Russell with a high acceleration rating in respect to his height and a generic Bill Russell.

[DesiMundha]

Re: When will 2K have real time physics ?

It would be amazing if they had real time physics, could only imagine how much better it would make the game.