[Kaanyr Vhok]

Quote: Originally Posted by Sundown

Still not very good comparisons. UFC only deals with contact between two possible opponents, who are almost always facing each other. It's significantly easier to layer inverse kinetics driven by physics on top of animations in that situation to get a convincing effect. And there is very little actual movement of the avatars in relation to each other in terms of differing speeds, angles, and what likely animation each fighter will be in.

UFC's physics and animation system gives it a unique edge over every fighting game. Its little things but its a lot to build on. This is the only UFC game where if you are posturing against the cage limbs will bend to gain leverage on the cage instead of sliding both parties closer to the middle so the feet are on the floor.

Its not common but I have seen guys land in an unscripted position while the game continues-to-play on allowing you to posture to a scripted position or fight in some rare odd unscripted tangle. This is something they can build on. If EA is ambitious enough (loaded question) they would have the means to increase the amount of possible animations to the point where the entire ground game feels unscripted.

Ive also grappled people in mid high kick pinning their leg in the grapple leaving them on one leg making for an extremely easy trip.

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And how are most of the hits and grapples not two-man animations? You know, the thing that's railed against continually?

Agreed

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In terms of comparisons to FIFA, if you expanded the 2K court 20 times and had possible player contact only intermittently instead of guaranteeing it constantly, you would also feel like you didn't have to work to avoid contact.

You are making both games to be more different than they really are. FIFA doesnt have better contact physics because its on a field or its soccer it has better contact physics because it has better contact physics. If Fifa was an indoor gym soccer game it would still have better physics.

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That's what a soccer simulation gets to deal with. In basketball, you don't have occasional contact here and there. You have it constantly, and there can be contact with as many as 3 or more players at the same time. The issue becomes worse when we consider off ball players whose job is entirely to run into and avoid each other in tiny lanes and clusters of bodies, without the luxury of just taking other players or themselves out on contact like in football.

Have you played the Fifa demo? Players are posting up and jostling for position besides while offball defensive contact is a legacy issue in 2k hoops its not what I was referring to and it looks like it was addressed in 2k15.

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In addition, you would NOT want every little contact being potential for a trip in a basketball simulation. It is so much easier to register any contact to produce a very visible and obvious collision where you lose control of the player (the result of a trip or a flop) than it is to simulate subtle and constant contact between 2-4 players that redirects each of their paths in a very confined space-- all the while trying to maintain a believable dribble, which may be more difficult in some respects than dribbling in soccer. The last time a game tried to base their game entirely around a dribble engine, we got "Ball-Tek". And Elite before that.

If guys are running full speed veering into their path should result in a possible trip scenario even if the contact is light. If this happens at a realistic rate its good. It never happens in 2k hoops. Its not even a foul unless the offensive player brings them into a scripted shooting animation.

I did not mention anything about ball physics. Thats not to say Visual Concepts cant learn from Fifa's ball physics. Improving dribble physics is more of a process. I have more patience in that area. Its easier to program a genius chess AI than it is to program real time dribbling, with ball protection.

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The same applies with your header vs loose ball example. Most contact in basketball does not take players out of the play-- especially since players are trying to scramble through contact. The fact that almost any contact in soccer leads to a flop is actually a godsend for developers. Play a collision animation (probably a 2-man one), call it a day.

Most contact in soccer does not end in a flop. Major contact maybe.. yeah. What I'm saying is Fifa calculates all contact including the majority of the little stuff that either does not take players to the grass or if it does its not major enough to milk so they hop right up. The animation doesn't always represent the the physics well but its better than clipping and invisible walls.

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I don't know that much about soccer and I can already surmise how some of the interactions and physics may be implemented. I am much more intimately familiar with basketball and have been thinking about this issue for years and I still don't have solid answers on how certain interactions would be best dealt with and solved. Basketball is simply one of the most dynamic sports in terms of physical contact-- in terms of direction and facing that contact can come from, in terms of when that contact can come and what state a player might be in, and in terms of the constraints the results of that contact have to fall in (the player can't simply be out of the play but still responsive within a very small section of court and with just the right loss of responsiveness). I can guarantee you that if you take 10 FIFA players, put them in the space the size of a few goal boxes, and then shrink the goal itself to a player's body width and have them try to score on that with all the contact that would cause, FIFA would look and play as bad as 2K and likely worse. Those are simply the facts. And pointing to one game that limits contact to two players with predictable orientations to each other in a tiny space-- and another where contact is intermittent over a large playfield rather than practically how the game is played does not change those realities. Because the reality is that 2K has to deal with some of the worst of those two situations without the benefits and simplifications either of those two situations might provide. At any rate, it looks like 2K is taking small strides in the physics department. No one has mentioned that the clip of Curry being subtly bumped by Melo looks driven by physics. That sort of thing is too unpredictable to script. And people used to complain about limbs clipping through other players bodies-- but next gen 2K had already started to address that, again, to no one's applause. I hope better ragdolls are next, but it seems like 2K is just about to take a foray into this with contact in the paint. I absolutely agree that 2K needs to focus on the momentum and foot planting aspects of the game, and when that happens, the game will take a transcendental leap-- but the solution is not to point to other games that deal with completely different constraints and call it an excuse if 2K has not solved their own particular problem in its own unique context yet.

Play the demo. It has nothing to do with the size of the field. Fifa has better defensive controls, movement animations that are easier to control and gauge. It calculates minor contact. The officials call fouls on, ignore or card you for unscripted contact. This ref AI is transferable into a basketball game.

We would need strong enough defensive controls so the defensive players have the ability to not just stay in front of their opponent but also to avoid initiating contact with them.