NBA 2K16: The Contested Shot Conundrum (Part 2)

[ChaseB]

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In the first part of this feature I wrote a lot about how often NBA teams are making each type of contested shot in comparison to NBA 2K. The feedback has been great both on here and elsewhere, and today I want to talk more about the specifics of these contested shots.

What that means is plenty more GIFs, and also a look at some shot types (some contested, some uncontested) in NBA 2K and how they relate to the NBA. In addition, I want to talk more about contested shots in terms of the disconnect between video games and the actual NBA.

All in all, this will be slightly less nerdy and a little more philosophical than part one. However, let me make one thing clear before the jump: Contested shots are a fact of NBA life.

Great, now let me dive in here.

Read More - The Contested Shot Conundrum (Part 2)

[ChaseB]

Re: NBA 2K16: The Contested Shot Conundrum (Part 2)

If you folks feel like answering any of them, I ask a bunch of questions within the feature as well.

[ataman5]

Re: NBA 2K16: The Contested Shot Conundrum (Part 2)

Chase man!! I loved and co-sign every point you wanted make in this read just as the first part!

I can't think of a game w/o balancing on its own on every sequences there are two parts risk/reward. As 2j devs keep developping the branches from what i mean is the branch that step-backs are all natural on both end of the floors then we'll see much more Curry being Curry also with user input quality.

It's a very good read and just shows us how many big strides 2k16 have made and we're here to discuss these..

I'll try answering your questions later..



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[shayellis]

Simply amazing article. Very clear and concise and showcases the problems 2k has with shooting compared to real life. I really hope the devs are looking and taking this all into account. A couple of points:

1. Youre correct that the turbo contest without jumping while a player is shooting, still needs to be a foul, and shouldnt carry the same weight as contesting with your hands up.

2. those fall on block animations need to be fouls every time.

3. On the steph curry A- vs D- grade, i dont think that deserves a drop that significant.
I also think the grading system on decent shots like a face up mid range is too heavily penalized. For instance if i face up with AD and shoot a midrange, no matter the contest, im basically guranteed a d- rating, its absurd

[hanzsomehanz]

Re: NBA 2K16: The Contested Shot Conundrum (Part 2)

Moving shots to create space deserve C or better grades depending on which move you selected.

To me this is the whole point of being a shot creator and having the badge but it's penalized very harshly to the point users shy away from it. On the contrary, CPU seems to be graced with more favorable outcomes on these shot selections regardless of the characters rating in ability.

I definitely would like to see more mid range shots go. I also will be more sympathetic of my drive and kick wide open corner 3s that clank. 😔

Overall, all your points resonate with me in the OP. I'm continuing to already be more tolerable of the wtf moments because they do occur. As you poignantly pointed out: contested makes are a lively part of the NBA. *Perfect defense does not always generate perfect outcomes for the defense.


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[A6_Foul_Out]

Re: NBA 2K16: The Contested Shot Conundrum (Part 2)

If you folks feel like answering any of them, I ask a bunch of questions within the feature as well.

This is great but in the meta game, this would ruin the game.

Top level players Shoot Greens and dunks. Allowing them a higher percentage on shots that aren't green would make this problem even worse.

The 'green release' mechanic needs to be heavily reworked. There's no reason that 97% of corner threes should go in for top players. Mid-ranges should not be 97% either. Top players get greens most times.

[ffaacc03]

Re: NBA 2K16: The Contested Shot Conundrum (Part 2)

First of all, yet another excellent article ...

1. Community Question: Do you think there’s an A-minus to D-minus difference in these shots just because Steph is leaning in one, while sprinting and coming to a stop in the other?

2. Community Question: Would you like to see more stepback jumpers and leaning jumpers end in successful makes?

3. Community Question: With that in mind, do you think you come anywhere close to a third of your shots coming from mid-range in your average NBA 2K game?

4. Community Question: If the shot in the GIF above went in one out of three times in NBA 2K (assuming you’re using a viable 3-point shooter), would you be okay with it?

1. That is too much of a penalty considering Steph is among the above average moving shooters. However this should still be considered by the game on a player to player base as there are players that are good when set and others that are good when dont, a few are good at both.

2. The same as above, depends on the player, but yes ... then again, the still prevalent left, right, left, right, shoot tactic would be even more relevant, as relevant as it was before 16.

3. Attempts wise no, at least not when playing vs other hums, vs the AI maybe, but may venture to also say no.

4. 3 out of 10 times, yes, but as the other cases, depending on a player to player base. There are players that can knock contested shots more often than others and those I would like them to do so a bit more often than those who dont.

Then again, as you have described in your article, these situations arent on an island, arent isolated and are interwinded, related to others, and if altered my also alter the landscape of the game, all should be accounted to see the full scope of any alteration (open/contested shots, set/moving shots, onball d, close outs, fouls, etc). This type of feedback/articles go a long way into providing valuable info to the devs, here is to hope for further refinements to a great game.

P.S:
Hopefully we (the users) are given even more tools to finetune (edit) the gameplay on a individual/team base level (thinking on hotspots, hotzones, moving shots, etc).

[ChaseB]

Re: NBA 2K16: The Contested Shot Conundrum (Part 2)

3. On the steph curry A- vs D- grade, i dont think that deserves a drop that significant.
I also think the grading system on decent shots like a face up mid range is too heavily penalized. For instance if i face up with AD and shoot a midrange, no matter the contest, im basically guranteed a d- rating, its absurd

Thanks for the kind words shay.

As to this final point, I tend to agree with this as well, though this is a bit of a unique issue. With guys like Dirk or something, yeah they don't really have shots that can be blocked or contested in a perfect way. I also think, as I talk about a bit in the article, people would rather body someone like AD even at mid-range and force the drive rather than give a little space for a jump shot. It feels easier to come up on someone and stop them rather than give room a lot of the time -- hand checking/bodying up still feels like it's a bit of a thing at times in 2K when it's really not ever kosher anymore in NBA.

Overall, all your points resonate with me in the OP. I'm continuing to already be more tolerable of the wtf moments because they do occur. As you poignantly pointed out: contested makes are a lively part of the NBA. *Perfect defense does not always generate perfect outcomes for the defense.

Wishing I would have stolen this line already

This is great but in the meta game, this would ruin the game.

Top level players Shoot Greens and dunks. Allowing them a higher percentage on shots that aren't green would make this problem even worse.

The 'green release' mechanic needs to be heavily reworked. There's no reason that 97% of corner threes should go in for top players. Mid-ranges should not be 97% either. Top players get greens most times.

Are you saying in something like Pro-Am this is the expected outcome on these shot types, or even just Play Now Online "top level" players wind up with these results? I didn't talk about the green releases and such much here, but in part one I talked about how nobody wants the patch 4 green-release stuff to come back etc. Either way, I've never been crazy about "perfect" releases and all that. I understand it exists to add to the meta-game of adding "skill" to each shot, but I've felt more inclined to just worry about making sure you mostly release a shot at "about" the right time. It's a video game mechanic more than a basketball mechanic to me, but again, I get why it exists. But of course, that also means I would be open to the "release" system being tweaked.

[dema]

I think the reason they currently can't have contested jumpers going in at a realistic percentage is that it would be too easy to just jack them up all game and still have a decent offence. This is because what 2k doesn't really simulate is the footwork of a player before his shot. That means coming off screens, pulling up for shots off the dribble etc, Included in that equation should be the pass that a player gets as well, what angle his receiving it at and how accurate is it. In the NBA you can see there are some players who are much better at getting into their shot in various situations that other players would probably put up an awkward shot.
So what i'm saying pretty much is the bit before the actual shot isn't simulated well. (probably because it would hard for 2k to do) But making that pre-shot part of the game skill based on the in game player and the user would make hitting a contested jumper seem less "unrealistic", and it can't just be under the hood calculations, the game has to show it. Because then the player knows "oh, he got that in because he set his feet right, the pass was straight to his chest and he followed through and released above the defender".

[A6_Foul_Out]

Re: NBA 2K16: The Contested Shot Conundrum (Part 2)

I think the reason they currently can't have contested jumpers going in at a realistic percentage is that it would be too easy to just jack them up all game and still have a decent offence. This is because what 2k doesn't really simulate is the footwork of a player before his shot. That means coming off screens, pulling up for shots off the dribble etc, Included in that equation should be the pass that a player gets as well, what angle his receiving it at and how accurate is it. In the NBA you can see there are some players who are much better at getting into their shot in various situations that other players would probably put up an awkward shot.
So what i'm saying pretty much is the bit before the actual shot isn't simulated well. (probably because it would hard for 2k to do) But making that pre-shot part of the game skill based on the in game player and the user would make hitting a contested jumper seem less "unrealistic", and it can't just be under the hood calculations, the game has to show it. Because then the player knows "oh, he got that in because he set his feet right, the pass was straight to his chest and he followed through and released above the defender".

This is what dimer and pass accuracy stats are supposed to be good for.

[dema]

This is what dimer and pass accuracy stats are supposed to be good for.

Yeh but i think often that stuff happens without any visual representation, if you've got a really bad passer you get the tough catch animation but otherwise its pretty hard to tell that it was good pass that let the guy get straight into his shot. Also footwork still isn't really apart of the game shooting wise.

[JoFri]

Re: NBA 2K16: The Contested Shot Conundrum (Part 2)

absolutely agree with this writeup. this stmt is just so well made, "but if we want “sim-oriented” games, we also have to accept that "perfect" defense can still be trumped at times." the shooting % having one out of 3 with "fake" contest by defenders is fine imo. for real fake contest, if i can propose using the jump button, should lower the success rate. why? its a choice to make. when playing defense irl, i pick my poise whether to jump to try blocking the shot or just raise my hand. in video gaming if i choose to jump contest bcos i want to play better defense, then i need to be mentally prepared for jump ball fakes foul. i need to be smarter when playing defense. having hand raise using the right stick or like what u illustrated running towards the shooter should have less effect to alter the success rate of making that shot.

[2_headedmonster]

Re: NBA 2K16: The Contested Shot Conundrum (Part 2)

Great write up man. Enjoyed the read.

-One thing i found odd, is when you talked about the contested shots you mentioned how the shots go in at a 30% clip, maybe less above the arch ( sub 30%), then rounded the percentage up to 33%. I didn't get that reasoning.

- There should definitely be shooting fouls for running into shooters, great point there, i've always felt that way.

- I like how you mentioned the defensive give and take. I feel contested shots and the mid-range game are heavily effected by the backwards implementation of on-ball defense currently in 2k. The game rewards defenders for getting far too close with bumping animations, Mario runs and by forcing hesitations on the ball-handler.
In addition, turning, planting and their effects on elevation when contesting shots aren't done well, so as a result created space isnt as “true” as it is in real life. For example Look at the way Hibbert moved when trying to contain McCollum off the pick and roll in your gif and how 2k represents that and you will see a stark contrast. 2k still has warping, sliding, defenders going forward rather than giving ground and an over-use of their high-speed, crab-shuffle defensive movement rather than proper foot-work. All these advantages afforded to the defense lead to the over use of the Limit Perimeter IMO.

[Oldhead80]

Re: NBA 2K16: The Contested Shot Conundrum (Part 2)

Great write up man. Enjoyed the read.

-One thing i found odd, is when you talked about the contested shots you mentioned how the shots go in at a 30% clip, maybe less above the arch ( sub 30%), then rounded the percentage up to 33%. I didn't get that reasoning.

- There should definitely be shooting fouls for running into shooters, great point there, i've always felt that way.

- I like how you mentioned the defensive give and take. I feel contested shots and the mid-range game are heavily effected by the backwards implementation of on-ball defense currently in 2k. The game rewards defenders for getting far too close with bumping animations, Mario runs and by forcing hesitations on the ball-handler.
In addition, turning, planting and their effects on elevation when contesting shots aren't done well, so as a result created space isnt as “true” as it is in real life. For example Look at the way Hibbert moved when trying to contain McCollum off the pick and roll in your gif and how 2k represents that and you will see a stark contrast. 2k still has warping, sliding, defenders going forward rather than giving ground and an over-use of their high-speed, crab-shuffle defensive movement rather than proper foot-work. All these advantages afforded to the defense lead to the over use of the Limit Perimeter IMO.

One of the big reasons why the footwork and overall defensive posture on defense needs to be completely redone. This hunchback, crouched posture with big steps not only looks ridiculous but it's not a representation of the movement and quick footwork NBA players use on defense.

[Baebae32]

Exactly. Defender in 2K arent capable of the short backwards strides necessary to contain the ball so they have to overdo the bumping (which is a foul every single time in the NBA)