Madden NFL 17 Video - Pocket Disengage and Ball Physics

[ggsimmonds]

Re: Madden NFL 17 Video - Pocket Disengage and Ball Physics

Unfortunately, it still seems to be the case. Always looking forward to how the team implements defensive line rush vs offensive line block every year, but I'm always disappointed unfortunately. Disappointed because you do see it done properly to a certain extent very, very infrequently and so you know it can be done. But disappointed that you don't see it either more frequently or always.

They can add in more animations all they want, but it looks as if the entire pocket isn't going to look organic or natural until they change the way they decide to program how the defensive lineman rush. Mentioned this in another thread ...

Madden right now:
Defensive lineman = heat seeking missiles (target: Offensive lineman)

Wishlist for future Madden installments:
Defensive lineman = heat seeking missiles (target: quarterback)

If the defensive lineman (DL) is programmed to actually rush the target quarterback, then the offensive lineman will automatically do it's job to finally block and protect the QB. The DL should be coded primarily to seek out it's primary target, the quarterback, by whatever means necessary. The OL would be the roadblock, and the DL will use whatever means necessary to get pass this roadblock. In turn, you wouldn't see pattycakes or stalemates ever again because the DL will always, always be looking to get to the QB as opposed to playing pattycake or stalemate chess with the OL. As it stands right now, it looks as if the DL is prorammed to target the OL first and foremost leaving the QB as an afterthought.

I agree but I would go a step further. The problem is not that they don't rush the QB, thew problem is that they don't work as a unit or in consort with the rest of the defense.

It is almost as if the problem is the exact opposite of what you say, they do go after the QB like a heat seeking missile and follow the idea of the shortest distance between two points is a straight line, even though the blocker is right in the middle. The result is the pass rusher often charging head on to the blocker. Also the neutral animation (pattycake) seems to be the same across the entire line.

So instead of a pocket forming we get more of a wall.

I think what they need is a neutral animation that is different for interior linemen and edge rushers that triggers more often. Watch a real game and notice how many times the edge rusher ends up behind the QB. Now think of how often that happens in Madden.

[strawberryshortcake]

Re: Madden NFL 17 Video - Pocket Disengage and Ball Physics

I agree but I would go a step further. The problem is not that they don't rush the QB, thew problem is that they don't work as a unit or in consort with the rest of the defense.

It is almost as if the problem is the exact opposite of what you say, they do go after the QB like a heat seeking missile and follow the idea of the shortest distance between two points is a straight line, even though the blocker is right in the middle. The result is the pass rusher often charging head on to the blocker. Also the neutral animation (pattycake) seems to be the same across the entire line.

So instead of a pocket forming we get more of a wall.

I think what they need is a neutral animation that is different for interior linemen and edge rushers that triggers more often. Watch a real game and notice how many times the edge rusher ends up behind the QB. Now think of how often that happens in Madden.

Look at the following two items (screen capture "designer blitz improvement" and the youtube DL vs OL 1 on 1 battle) and tell me the crux of the problem does not solely fall back on the DL heat seeking the OL as primary target. It is still the predominant problem.

Sure, the DL needs to work together in concert, but even in a one on one situation if the edge rush is programmed to actually seek out the quarterback as the primary target by any means necessary, you will naturally get the curved arc pass rush. The first thing that still needs to be done is for the DL heat seeking missile target to be the QB. Fix this, then you can start programming the DL to work together as a cohort. Madden's existing foundation is still the DL's primary target being the OL first with the QB being an afterthought.

Designer Blitz Improvement:
If my theory on "heat seeking missile" is wrong, then the following should never happen. Why are the DL rushing east to west when the QB is clearly in the south position? Because the DL's heat seeking missile primary target in the current Madden is still the OL and unfortunately not the QB.

The DL isn't even tracking the location of the quaterback. They're still attacking the OL because that's their primary target with QB being a complete afterthought. That is a DL heat seeking OL problem first and foremost and has nothing to do with working as a team. Yes, they need to work as a team ultimately, but when the foundation backbone (DL heat seeking missile primary target needs to be the QB) isn't programmed properly, you get stuff like.

http://amp.twimg.com/v/1bc0c09a-fab9-466e-9371-a6b242bcbd39

DL vs OL one on one battles:
Here, it's not a team working together because the foundation of a DL rushing the QB doesn't need all 5 DL to work together. Yes, the unit needs to eventually work together during game time, but the DL's skills and ability from an individual standpoint isn't even replicated well in Madden yet. The problem still falls on the fact that Madden's DL's primary target is the OL and not the QB.

The following is a one versus one battle. A real DL's primary target is the QB by any means necessary. The natural arc curvature will natural happen if the Madden's DL primary target is the QB.





<iframe src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/SJfFv_ryHvI" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" width="560"></iframe>

[4thQtrStre5S]

Re: Madden NFL 17 Video - Pocket Disengage and Ball Physics

Look at the following two items (screen capture "designer blitz improvement" and the youtube DL vs OL 1 on 1 battle) and tell me the crux of the problem does not solely fall back on the DL heat seeking the OL as primary target. It is still the predominant problem.

Sure, the DL needs to work together in concert, but even in a one on one situation if the edge rush is programmed to actually seek out the quarterback as the primary target by any means necessary, you will naturally get the curved arc pass rush. The first thing that still needs to be done is for the DL heat seeking missile target to be the QB. Fix this, then you can start programming the DL to work together as a cohort. Madden's existing foundation is still the DL's primary target being the OL first with the QB being an afterthought.

Designer Blitz Improvement:
If my theory on "heat seeking missile" is wrong, then the following should never happen. Why are the DL rushing east to west when the QB is clearly in the south position? Because the DL's heat seeking missile primary target in the current Madden is still the OL and unfortunately not the QB.

The DL isn't even tracking the location of the quaterback. They're still attacking the OL because that's their primary target with QB being a complete afterthought. That is a DL heat seeking OL problem first and foremost and has nothing to do with working as a team. Yes, they need to work as a team ultimately, but when the foundation backbone (DL heat seeking missile primary target needs to be the QB) isn't programmed properly, you get stuff like.

http://amp.twimg.com/v/1bc0c09a-fab9-466e-9371-a6b242bcbd39

DL vs OL one on one battles:
Here, it's not a team working together because the foundation of a DL rushing the QB doesn't need all 5 DL to work together. Yes, the unit needs to eventually work together during game time, but the DL's skills and ability from an individual standpoint isn't even replicated well in Madden yet. The problem still falls on the fact that Madden's DL's primary target is the OL and not the QB.

The following is a one versus one battle. A real DL's primary target is the QB by any means necessary. The natural arc curvature will natural happen if the Madden's DL primary target is the QB.





<iframe src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/SJfFv_ryHvI" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" width="560"></iframe>

I think there needs to be more done than having DL target the QB; that is for pass rushers only, we agree? There needs to be positional assignment logic, IMO; so that a 3-4 plays as such and a 4-3 plays as it should; each base formation obviously has different pass rushers. A 3-4 NT primarily is not focused on the QB, for example; though the type of defensive play called dictates a role.

Traits and ratings should also determine how a DL player attacks; thus a player with higher pass rush targets the QB while a Run Stopper engages an offensive lineman more directly, while keeping focus on the ball location and gap responsibility; of course just my 2 cents on this topic.

At this point though, considering how it may be rather difficult to use micro-logic assignments to each lineman, a simpler system of focusing on the Ball(QB), may be best...I would still like to see a double team on a DL based on their strength and block shed, not just because they are the NT, for example; or a double team on a top pass rusher.

[ggsimmonds]

Re: Madden NFL 17 Video - Pocket Disengage and Ball Physics

Look at the following two items (screen capture "designer blitz improvement" and the youtube DL vs OL 1 on 1 battle) and tell me the crux of the problem does not solely fall back on the DL heat seeking the OL as primary target. It is still the predominant problem.

Sure, the DL needs to work together in concert, but even in a one on one situation if the edge rush is programmed to actually seek out the quarterback as the primary target by any means necessary, you will naturally get the curved arc pass rush. The first thing that still needs to be done is for the DL heat seeking missile target to be the QB. Fix this, then you can start programming the DL to work together as a cohort. Madden's existing foundation is still the DL's primary target being the OL first with the QB being an afterthought.

Designer Blitz Improvement:
If my theory on "heat seeking missile" is wrong, then the following should never happen. Why are the DL rushing east to west when the QB is clearly in the south position? Because the DL's heat seeking missile primary target in the current Madden is still the OL and unfortunately not the QB.

The DL isn't even tracking the location of the quaterback. They're still attacking the OL because that's their primary target with QB being a complete afterthought. That is a DL heat seeking OL problem first and foremost and has nothing to do with working as a team. Yes, they need to work as a team ultimately, but when the foundation backbone (DL heat seeking missile primary target needs to be the QB) isn't programmed properly, you get stuff like.

http://amp.twimg.com/v/1bc0c09a-fab9-466e-9371-a6b242bcbd39

DL vs OL one on one battles:
Here, it's not a team working together because the foundation of a DL rushing the QB doesn't need all 5 DL to work together. Yes, the unit needs to eventually work together during game time, but the DL's skills and ability from an individual standpoint isn't even replicated well in Madden yet. The problem still falls on the fact that Madden's DL's primary target is the OL and not the QB.

The following is a one versus one battle. A real DL's primary target is the QB by any means necessary. The natural arc curvature will natural happen if the Madden's DL primary target is the QB.





<iframe src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/SJfFv_ryHvI" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" width="560"></iframe>

I think you may be mistaking poor animations and transitions for programmed logic.
I don't think the defenders are programmed to go after the blocker, but what does happen is that when a rusher enters a linemen's sphere of influence it triggers a head on blocking animation.
The designer blitz illustrates this well. In the first play the rusher going against the LT did a proper animation where he continued attacking the outside shoulder and getting up field. That is good, but more often we see animations trigger where they do not do this, as evidenced by play number 2. We see it all the time where a rusher starts for the QB, then encounters a blocker on his left and gets "sucked into" a blocking animations that results in him turning away from the QB and towards the blocker.

Outside of that you and I are saying the same thing, and so is 4th qtr. The animations, particularly the transitions, are not very good.