NASCAR Heat Evolution Available, Post Your Impressions Here

[brandon27]

Re: NASCAR Heat Evolution Available, Post Your Impressions Here

Guess I'm getting Daytona fever, 'cause I've been playing a lot of this game recently. Going off what brandon27 said about the AI, I'm trying to figure out exactly how the AI settings work to get the best racing experience. I haven't come across anything definitive online so I'm going to do my best to detail it here (it would be nice if DMi explained these settings themselves). You guys let me know if this is way off base:

First off, as far as I can tell, AI adjustments only affect the top speed of the CPU cars, not their racing behavior. So you can't make the opposition race smarter or dumber, only faster or slower. I think we pretty much expect this with racing games though, and as brandon27 said, the built-in AI is actually good if you race at a decent length.

The default AI setting is Auto, which is basically rubberbanding AI at 100% top speed. This is where I was getting screwed up as it's the default setting. and where "20th Place Mode" kicks in. You'll notice an abrupt change in CPU speed as you as get close to this position, but if you're three laps down you'll blow by the lead car like it was standing still. You can slow the AI down (Auto -2%) or speed it up (Auto +2%), but the game is still using catch-up logic at certain intervals.

FWIW, I've seen people comment that Auto reads your track Speed Rating, but I don't believe this is the case. I have a 105 Speed Rating on many tracks and the Auto AI is as slow as it ever was on those tracks, until I reach 20th place that is. And besides, you can clearly see the dividing lines where the CPU evaluates your position and decides to make your competition faster, therefore the best thing to do is to disable Auto and find a Custom setting that suits your skill level.

The Custom settings range from 85-105. Again, this is only a governor of the CPU opponents' top speed. 85 means they'll reach 85% of top speed compared to your untuned (no setups) car, 105 means they'll reach 105% of top speed compared to the same car. This is immediately evident if you race at both settings, you'll be blowing by the opposition at 85 and will get left in the dust at 105, unless you find a killer setup and do plenty of drafting.

To test this out I ran two races at Darlington, one at 85 and the other at 105. The top CPU laps were:

85 = 37.692
105 = 30.113

As you can see, the AI is much faster at the top setting. It has nothing to do with actual racing intelligence, just a higher top speed.

So what does this all mean? It means that theoretically, you could race at Custom 100 and get a fair, balanced race. Unfortunately Career Mode is an entirely different beast. There are only Easy/Normal/Hard settings, all of which seem to tie into Auto. Which unless I'm mistaken, is the reason you can't run a non-rubberbanding race in Career Mode.

The dreaded "20th place mode" exists outside of career? To be honest, I've almost spend all my time inside of career mode, and yes, the AI while you were upgrading your team/car was maddening. You'd hit that sweet spot in the running order where the game decided to ratchet up the difficulty on you and that's it. You were destined to just ride around in that spot until the laps fell off. I didn't realize that happened outside of career mode as well?

So, what you're essentially saying is outside of career, if you set the AI to "auto" it does the same thing?

I've never ran outside of career with it set to Auto. Except maybe when I first got the game initially and I'm not sure I ran enough races, or long enough races to experience it. I went automatically to setting it to a certain number. I typically like it at a setting where I can work my way past the garbage at the back of the field, but at least have some good racing with the top of the pack.

That's a pretty dramatic difference in laptimes between 85 and 105. Just to compare to real laptimes I did some digging...

At a difficulty of 85 = 37.692
At a difficulty of 105 = 30.113

In 2015 (2016 qualifying appears to be rained out), Keselowski took the pole with a laptime of 27.492

Sure, we're comparing qualifying to race times, and I assume qualifying times are typically a bit better. Be curious to see how qualifying times worked out at 85 and 105 just to see how the AI laptimes, compare to the real laptimes. I can't seem to find laptimes for the race itself anywhere online, or even just the "best laptime" turned during the race day, but of course, those can be affected by draft etc, etc.

So, am I correct to assume then, what you're saying is essentially that using the "Auto" setting outside of career mode, the AI has the similar effect to career mode when you may get stuck in the field around 20th. However, if you use the custom AI settings to a specific value 85-105, that effect goes away, and you're left to just try and find the sweet spot that works for you? Which of course, unfortunately varies from track to track based on skill level.

I really don't understand why they couldn't use the same AI difficulty/rating settings between career and single race. If there's one thing I can't stand in my sports games, it's AI levels that change between game modes. When I fire up the game, I want the same challenge inside career or franchise, as I do in a quick race or play now event.

[bravesfan1984]

Re: NASCAR Heat Evolution Available, Post Your Impressions Here

I know this would take some time and effort, but maybe we could get an excel sheet or something worked up with lap times at each track based on AI setting (85-105) that would help fit our driving skill. Do you think it'd be possible to get something like this started?

[Turbojugend]

Re: NASCAR Heat Evolution Available, Post Your Impressions Here

So, what you're essentially saying is outside of career, if you set the AI to "auto" it does the same thing?

Exactly. I don't have solid proof, but I believe the Career Mode AI settings directly correspond to the following Auto settings:

Easy = Auto (-2%)
Normal = Auto
Hard = Auto (+2%)

So, am I correct to assume then, what you're saying is essentially that using the "Auto" setting outside of career mode, the AI has the similar effect to career mode when you may get stuck in the field around 20th. However, if you use the custom AI settings to a specific value 85-105, that effect goes away, and you're left to just try and find the sweet spot that works for you? Which of course, unfortunately varies from track to track based on skill level.

Yes. The frustrating thing about is that Auto is the default setting, so you actually have to go in and disable rubberbanding to get a good racing experience in Race Now and Season Mode. For what it's worth, it seems as though the Challenges are at Custom 100, which is why they are actually reasonable.

I really don't understand why they couldn't use the same AI difficulty/rating settings between career and single race.

Again, I have a theory for this. As there are no lower circuits to work your way through in NHE, Career Mode is built upon a shallow "upgrade your car to get faster and win more races" premise. Which makes absolutely no sense from a realism standpoint, if you're on the Sprint Cup circuit and having to purchase upgrades to make your car faster, well, you wouldn't have made it here in the first place. But without the Xfinity and Truck series, it's the only way to add any sense of strategy or depth with this amount of content.

Having said this, if the standard AI settings applied to Career Mode, you could simply lower the AI setting to make it slower, thereby defeating the need to purchase upgrades, thereby killing any sense of progression. It's a lousy way of going about things but I can see why they did it.

[Turbojugend]

Re: NASCAR Heat Evolution Available, Post Your Impressions Here

I know this would take some time and effort, but maybe we could get an excel sheet or something worked up with lap times at each track based on AI setting (85-105) that would help fit our driving skill. Do you think it'd be possible to get something like this started?

Maybe it's just me, but I think it might be better to just find an overall Custom setting that suits your general skill level and stick with that. Use Custom 100 as the yardstick and race a few quick races on every type of track (superspeedway, speedway, short track, road course), then tweak the AI number up or down depending on how you fare and use that number as your overall AI setting.

For instance, I'm currently racing at Custom 98 in my Carl Edwards season (did I mention that I suck at racing games?), I manage to place high and win a few at this level but definitely not every race. At the same time, I'm not great on road courses so I know that I'm probably not going to win any of those races, maybe not even place in the Top 10. But I think this keeps things somewhat realistic, not every driver excels on every type of track.

[bravesfan1984]

Re: NASCAR Heat Evolution Available, Post Your Impressions Here

Maybe it's just me, but I think it might be better to just find an overall Custom setting that suits your general skill level and stick with that. Use Custom 100 as the yardstick and race a few quick races on every type of track (superspeedway, speedway, short track, road course), then tweak the AI number up or down depending on how you fare and use that number as your overall AI setting.

For instance, I'm currently racing at Custom 98 in my Carl Edwards season (did I mention that I suck at racing games?), I manage to place high and win a few at this level but definitely not every race. At the same time, I'm not great on road courses so I know that I'm probably not going to win any of those races, maybe not even place in the Top 10. But I think this keeps things somewhat realistic, not every driver excels on every type of track.

I'm terrible with setups and racing on sim mode in this game, so I'll stick with the assists on which will make it a little easier, so I may need to use a higher AI setting. That's my thinking anyway.

[brandon27]

Re: NASCAR Heat Evolution Available, Post Your Impressions Here

I know this would take some time and effort, but maybe we could get an excel sheet or something worked up with lap times at each track based on AI setting (85-105) that would help fit our driving skill. Do you think it'd be possible to get something like this started?

Personally, I don't think it's a bad idea, but it's not the greatest either. It's time consuming however. That's 20 different sets of times, at 23 different tracks, or even more tracks if they differ between day/night events at each track.

Even if you had a spreadsheet with the approximate lap times of the AI at each setting, you'd still need to know your own personal lap times at each track in order to dial in a difficulty setting prior to starting the race.

Maybe instead of doing them at 85-105. Do them in intervals of 5. I'd be willing to bet the difference between 85 and 86 is pretty minor, but 85-90 you'd probably notice.

[brandon27]

Re: NASCAR Heat Evolution Available, Post Your Impressions Here

Just to give an idea on the spread of lap times at certain difficulties I just did some quick testing at Vegas. I ran 3 qualifying sessions per difficulty level. I started at 85, then went up to 86, then jumped to 90. At each level, for each run, I recorded the top AI time, and the last place AI time. Here's what I can report: (my apologies if the chart doesn't show up the way it should)

<table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0" width="576"><colgroup><col style="width:48pt" span="9" width="64"> </colgroup><tbody><tr style="height:15.0pt" height="20"> <td class="xl66" style="height:15.0pt;width:48pt" height="20" width="64">Track</td> <td class="xl67" style="width:48pt" width="64"> 85H</td> <td class="xl67" style="width:48pt" width="64"> 85L</td> <td class="xl68" style="width:48pt" width="64">
</td> <td class="xl67" style="width:48pt" width="64"> 86H
</td> <td class="xl67" style="width:48pt" width="64"> 86L</td> <td class="xl68" style="width:48pt" width="64">
</td> <td class="xl67" style="width:48pt" width="64"> 90H</td> <td class="xl67" style="width:48pt" width="64"> 90L</td> </tr> <tr style="height:15.0pt" height="20"> <td class="xl66" style="height:15.0pt" height="20">
</td> <td class="xl67">
</td> <td class="xl67">
</td> <td class="xl68">
</td> <td class="xl67">
</td> <td class="xl67">
</td> <td class="xl68">
</td> <td class="xl67">
</td> <td class="xl67">
</td> </tr> <tr style="height:15.0pt" height="20"> <td class="xl65" style="height:15.0pt" height="20">Vegas</td> <td class="xl65" align="right">33.435</td> <td class="xl65" align="right">36.492</td> <td class="xl65">
</td> <td class="xl65" align="right">33.190</td> <td class="xl65" align="right">35.992</td> <td class="xl65">
</td> <td class="xl65" align="right">32.181</td> <td class="xl65" align="right">34.256</td> </tr> <tr style="height:15.0pt" height="20"> <td class="xl65" style="height:15.0pt" height="20">
</td> <td class="xl65" align="right">33.430</td> <td class="xl65" align="right">36.583</td> <td class="xl65">
</td> <td class="xl65" align="right">33.043</td> <td class="xl65" align="right">35.902</td> <td class="xl65">
</td> <td class="xl65" align="right">32.217</td> <td class="xl65" align="right">34.289</td> </tr> <tr style="height:15.0pt" height="20"> <td class="xl65" style="height:15.0pt" height="20">
</td> <td class="xl65" align="right">33.361</td> <td class="xl65" align="right">36.510</td> <td class="xl65">
</td> <td class="xl65" align="right">33.085</td> <td class="xl65" align="right">36.028</td> <td class="xl65">
</td> <td class="xl65" align="right">32.303</td> <td class="xl65" align="right">34.313</td> </tr> <tr style="height:15.0pt" height="20"> <td class="xl65" style="height:15.0pt" height="20">
</td> <td class="xl65">
</td> <td class="xl65">
</td> <td class="xl65">
</td> <td class="xl65">
</td> <td class="xl65">
</td> <td class="xl65">
</td> <td class="xl65">
</td> <td class="xl65">
</td> </tr> <tr style="height:15.0pt" height="20"> <td class="xl66" style="height:15.0pt" height="20">Average:</td> <td class="xl66" align="right">33.409</td> <td class="xl66" align="right">36.528</td> <td class="xl66">
</td> <td class="xl66" align="right">33.106</td> <td class="xl66" align="right">35.974</td> <td class="xl66">
</td> <td class="xl66" align="right">32.234</td> <td class="xl66" align="right">34.286</td> </tr> </tbody></table>

There's a bit more spread between 85 and 86 than I anticipated there would be. Quite the jump from 85 to 90. However, it seems that the qualifying times and race lap times differ. Now, the game of course shows you no way to see in-race AI laptimes, so it's hard to compare. So, I ran 10 laps of the race, at AI level 90. I ran laptimes myself as the leader between 31.600 and 31.800. After 10 laps, I had opened a 5.7 second lead. So, if you say I ran my best laptime of 31.6 all 10 laps, and the AI ran it's best 90 OVR laptime of 32.181 each of the 10 laps, I should have gained 0.511 seconds per lap, or 5.1 seconds in total. So, seeing as I had a 5.7 second lead, and that assumes I ran my best time every lap (I did not btw, I was usually about a tenth higher) and it assumes the AI ran their best time. Someone is off, and it's likely to be the AI times since mine were slower than my best lap time, which is the one I used in the calculation.

Now, as for making a sheet of these times at every difficulty level, or even in 5 level increments(85, 90, 95, 100, 105) it's going to be extremely time consuming. I'd suggest doing it as I did here with a 3 run sample of first AI time, and last AI time for each level. The problem is, in order to see the qualifying times, you've actually got to run a qualifying session yourself since you can't sim qualifying, and see the qualifying results. Only way to see them is to load the race, run qualifying, view results, then exit the race... rinse and repeat 3 times to get an average high & low. Three runs is a small sample size of course, but it at least gives you an idea.

For the record... I did this in simulation physics model. Using a controller, and the default Vegas car setup. I doubt any of that matters though.

I do though think it's an interesting venture to put a full list together. For the sake of saving time, I guess you don't NEED a sample size of at least 3, I mean, there is a difference between the 3 highest/lowest times in each qualifying session, but I guess it's not that big of a gap it would have an effect.

That being said, you'd still need to know your own lap times ahead of time in order to know what setting to use. Again, stat tracking is pretty horrible in the game, so there's really no way to know your own historical or average times unless you track them yourself somewhere.

Seems like it could be a long road that would just lead to a ton of work. I'm just not sure it's worth it.

[Turbojugend]

Re: NASCAR Heat Evolution Available, Post Your Impressions Here

There's a bit more spread between 85 and 86 than I anticipated there would be. Quite the jump from 85 to 90. However, it seems that the qualifying times and race lap times differ. Now, the game of course shows you no way to see in-race AI laptimes, so it's hard to compare.

What I did for the lower AI benchmarks was race reaaalllly slow so that I wouldn't end up with the fastest lap time. Then the AI's fastest lap shows up at the end of the race

[brandon27]

Re: NASCAR Heat Evolution Available, Post Your Impressions Here

What I did for the lower AI benchmarks was race reaaalllly slow so that I wouldn't end up with the fastest lap time. Then the AI's fastest lap shows up at the end of the race

That's a good idea, but if were going to try and build some sort of spreadsheet around this, that's even less practical, and more time consuming than doing it through qualifying. Did you happen to notice the difference between the qualifying and race laptimes of the AI?

[Turbojugend]

Re: NASCAR Heat Evolution Available, Post Your Impressions Here

That's a good idea, but if were going to try and build some sort of spreadsheet around this, that's even less practical, and more time consuming than doing it through qualifying. Did you happen to notice the difference between the qualifying and race laptimes of the AI?

No, I was actually skipping qualifying. But you're right, if you want to gather data the fastest way, qualifying is the way to do it.

BTW, this is why I love communities like this. Pre-OS I would have labeled this game worthless and gave up on it within a couple of days. But here it is six months later and we're still trying to find out what this game has to offer and how to get the most out of it.

[brandon27]

Re: NASCAR Heat Evolution Available, Post Your Impressions Here

No, I was actually skipping qualifying. But you're right, if you want to gather data the fastest way, qualifying is the way to do it.

BTW, this is why I love communities like this. Pre-OS I would have labeled this game worthless and gave up on it within a couple of days. But here it is six months later and we're still trying to find out what this game has to offer and how to get the most out of it.

I was thinking that too actually last night when I was compiling that Vegas data. First it was... Why am I wasting my time with this? Then I thought to myself, I'm going to see it through and do this whole sheet for every track, in 5 AI level increments in the hope that the devs will see that people actually care, and hope that they'd see some of the other comments here on how they can make the next one better. However, than it took me about a half hour just to gather that Vegas data for 3 AI levels, at one track.. and all hope was lost.

You're right though, that's the cool thing about this community. I remember with other Nascar games here the awesome setup threads we used to have too where people would share their great setups. Unfortunately this game just never gathered enough traction and interest to get that going. Which is sad, because even the NTG series earned itself a setups thread here for a while.

The AI issue for racing games to me is a tough one. Because I think as the player, you want a challenge, but at the same time you want the ability to win. I've almost never found a setting in any racing game that's allowed me to be able to compete for the win and get it, and not get it all on the same AI setting. It's always one or the other. I find this game very much that way too. For example, at AI90 (just pulling numbers out of the air) you might always win by a second or two. At AI 95 though, you may never stand a chance and always finish top 10 only. There never seems to be a setting that just works and gives a good mix. Luckily they gave the option to increase one at a time from 85-105 which helps, but still there is always that breaking point. At 100 you might always be 20th. 95 you're 10th, 90 you're winning by 5 seconds. There's always a threshold in your speed and AI speed that you break or cant break. Sure, varying laptimes and your consistency help and play into it, but that's still usually been my experience.

The other problem I have with the AI in this game though, even if you do get that setting that lets you run around other cars and fight for position, the AI too often wrecks you. They did a good job not having the AI riding on rails, or specific lines. They do shift around their lines. However the problem it does have is if I don't run a line similar to the AI, it's as if they have no awareness that I'm there, and they're going to drive their line. They're always all take, no give, that's just not the case in Nascar.


Too often I've seen a car behind me put their nose on my rear fender and just stay there until I either spin out, or get out of the way and drop 10 spots. Sure, on Sundays you may see Harvick put a fender on Logano and send him spinning. I get that, but that's not what I'm talking about. I expect that if I cut across the AI's line that I might spin out. I'm talking about the times where were in close quarters, not making contact, but the AI just keeps driving up under you, and eventually into you, and they don't let up until you've spun, and on simulation mode your car appears to be driving on an oil slick, but theirs is stuck to the track like glue. That's what bothers me. In those situations you'd expect a driver to take care of their own car too, not just plow through you with no repercussions.

The AI cars for me when it comes to contact with the player are too unaware still, and they drive like tanks that cant be moved, yet the slightest touch, even side to side and the player's car is slippin and slidin all over the place while the AI drives on as if you never touched them. You've got to hit them pretty darn good to get them to spin, as opposed to them feathering you and you're gone.

[Turbojugend]

Re: NASCAR Heat Evolution Available, Post Your Impressions Here

Y'know, it would be really nice if DMi had some type of presence on this board, much like the NBA 2K and The Show devs. I wonder if we made some attempt to reach out to them via social media if they would be responsive to having someone check this forum every now and then. What we are currently doing is definitely more productive than the usual Twitter "UR GAME SUX FIX IT" drivel.

I usually stay away from social media for just that reason, but I may try to reach out to DMi through their web portal just to see how responsive they are to this idea. I do believe they are passionate about making great NASCAR games, maybe we can help out.

[bravesfan1984]

Re: NASCAR Heat Evolution Available, Post Your Impressions Here

Y'know, it would be really nice if DMi had some type of presence on this board, much like the NBA 2K and The Show devs. I wonder if we made some attempt to reach out to them via social media if they would be responsive to having someone check this forum every now and then. What we are currently doing is definitely more productive than the usual Twitter "UR GAME SUX FIX IT" drivel.

I usually stay away from social media for just that reason, but I may try to reach out to DMi through their web portal just to see how responsive they are to this idea. I do believe they are passionate about making great NASCAR games, maybe we can help out.

I'd also suggest reaching out to Sean Wilson, he seems pretty responsive to everyone from what I can tell. It would be great if they'd become a presence here. Maybe they could find some beta testers here that could help out. I'd consider doing that if they offered.

[longranger]

Re: NASCAR Heat Evolution Available, Post Your Impressions Here

Only 19 bucks on amazon for ps4 right now......

[Turbojugend]

Re: NASCAR Heat Evolution Available, Post Your Impressions Here

I'd also suggest reaching out to Sean Wilson, he seems pretty responsive to everyone from what I can tell. It would be great if they'd become a presence here. Maybe they could find some beta testers here that could help out. I'd consider doing that if they offered.

I don't do Twitter, but if someone here has an account and can reach out to him that would be great. We've got 2K and SDS guys on this board, I don't see why DMi couldn't join the fun as well.

Here's a copy of the e-mail I fired off to DMi:

Dear DMi,

I just wanted to make you aware that there is a great community over at Operation Sports that is committed to playing and getting the best out of NASCAR Heat Evolution. Operation Sports is one of the most popular sports gaming sites on the web today, the forums are usually populated with extremely positive gamers as well as company spokespersons and devs.

As fans and purchasers of your product, we'd love to see someone like Sean Wilson pop in every now and then to interact with our community. Several devs from 2K Sports (NBA 2K) and Sony San Diego (MLB The Show) frequent these forums and are constantly listening to and implementing the feedback that this mature gaming community provides.

We currently have a lengthy topic on NHE AI and exactly how the various settings work. There is very little information about this on the web so we are doing the research and analysis ourselves.

http://www.operationsports.com/forums/racing/