Here's what needs to be done to fix presentation

[jfsolo]

Quote: Originally Posted by rgiles36

Yeah, the OP post is way too subjective and absolute. Having cutscenes themselves is not the problem (cough 2K5). I'm not going to put a megathread together of my own suggestions, but I don't feel as though the OP's ideas are the key to fixing presentation. Then again -- and I'll get roasted for this -- who's to say their presentation needs fixing? Hear me out: I'm starting to think that EA intentionally puts their own spin on presentation. In other words, they're aware that they're not following TV presentation to a T and that's their objective. They don't want their presentation exactly like TV's or 2K's past football games. Why else would they continue to fall flat? I can't see how we all can watch a broadcast and come up with a hundred different things that EA is not doing right. They watch football games too. So aside from the silly blunders (out of sequence cutscenes for example), I think it's their intention to have unique presentation regardless of how underwhelming it is.

I think its pretty clear that they are making a concerted effort to create their own presentation style. I think they have become quite enamored with their "EA Sports" presentation approach, and its unlikely that they going to be easily swayed into abandoning it for what I suspect they believe to be a "inferior" approach-i.e. broadcast style mimicry.

We never have any real data on these things, but I'd hazard a guess that they don't feel like their disdain for broadcast authenticity is costing them too many game sales.

The broadcast advocates are very passionate and quite vocal about what they want, but I don't believe their numbers to be legion.

Besides a sales increase, the only way that EA would make a change in their presentation style is to convince the big wigs that they would get a major bump in their Metacritic numbers by doing so.

[ODogg]

I actually posted this in another thread last year on how to do presentation. It wasn't quite so absolute but I did espouse the belief that we should be doing more actual scenes with the players on the field in the moment and not constant cutscenes.

However the problem isn't really cut scenes, it's EA's not using them in common sense ways. Like you throw an 80 yard bomb and then 2 seconds later your QB and linemen are there congratulating your WR. It'd make much more sense to have the cut scene show the WR walking upfield and them coming into the picture after a realistic amount of time. And also they'd have to have it varied so it wasn't always the same scene.

But then when you get into that you think, why not just do it in game? All of it. They could do window in window shots too, like ESPN did, where you see a coaches reaction to a missed FG...instead of cutting away, have it live, so it shows up right after you kick it. Things like that.

Honestly it seems as if the fans have a good grasp on this stuff and how it should go, the question is why can't EA fathom this sort of stuff???

[RGiles36]

Quote: Originally Posted by jfsolo

We never have any real data on these things, but I'd hazard a guess that they don't feel like their disdain for broadcast authenticity is costing them too many game sales.

Yeah agreed, and in some sense, the proof is in the pudding. Check the majority of the E3 vids (or almost all the ones I've seen). Almost every one of them features a user button mashing through the pre-and-post play action. I can't get a feel for what EA implemented b/c most people are so anxious to get back on the field. So while we ridicule EA for not spending enough time in this area, they could probably justify it with some examples and data.

Presentation will do its job when the game is demo-ing in your local Best Buy but when people get their hands on the game, I'm starting to see that many people could care less.

I'm not waving the proverbial white flag on any hopes of getting 100% broadcast presentation; just making sense out of the design decisions the team has made the past couple years.

[RGiles36]

Quote: Originally Posted by ODogg

Honestly it seems as if the fans have a good grasp on this stuff and how it should go, the question is why can't EA fathom this sort of stuff???

That's my point. Those guys aren't incompetent. So while I'm not breaking news or anything, I'm really starting to feel their style of presentation is intentional. They borrow some broadcast elements but that's as far as it goes.

[Segagendude]

Quote: Originally Posted by Netherscourge

Here's the tagline they can sell: "Never take the camera off the players. NEVER" What does that mean? It means from the coin flip to the final whistle, the camera never comes off the players. NEVER. No cut-scenes. Just non-stop cameras on players as they move around the field in real time before, during and after plays. Different, changing, boroadcast-style camera angles of course - but they must all be synched up to the players on the field. -No pre-animated cut-scenes. (Except for maybe the fans and stuff before and after games.) -No "skipping" from the end of a play right back to the line of scrimmage with everyone already lined up and ready to go. -Let the game engine automatically control the players after each play and follow them around as they mill around, chat with each other, get a quick drink from a water bottle, consult with coaches, wait for plays to come in, huddle up, etc... but do NOT take the camera off of them. Have overlays with playcalling and stuff - but make sure you can see the players and coaches in the background - NO CUT-SCENES. Let the game engine keep running the whole time and have the players and coaches and even the announcers discussing stuff as it would happen in real life on live TV. Replays are fine after plays too - but keep the players positioned and milling around in real-time so after the replay the players are still realistically simulated to where they were going to before the replay started. -Follow the players into and out of the lockeroom at halftime. Show them getting together and chatting with the coaches, stretching, getting wrapped up with tape, etc... Show them happy and upbeat when they are winning or tied. Show them downbeat and depressed with coaches really animated if they are getting killed by the other team. (no nudity of course) And then fade to a TV up in the corner of the lockeroom where the highlight show begins. But again - keep the TV monitor itself in view - allow the user to pan around the lockeroom at like lockers or players. Then when the user is ready, you follow the players and coaches BACK out onto the field. -If people don't want to wait for stuff - then allow a "Fast Foward" opton, sort of like the REWIND option in Madden 10, where everything moves in superfast speed, up to the next play. But DO NOT SKIP OVER anything - just have the game engine go high-speed to the next play or the end of halftime or whatever. -After touchdowns or any big play, show the players actually running up to the scoring player and celebrating - DO NOT CUT AWAY - just let everything flow in real-time, so that the actual players involved are seen realistically coming together and celebreating. Not just magically appearing in the endzone celebrating. Allow replays of course, but again - show the players relative to where they SHOULD be after the replay ends and the camera is back on the field - as if everything was moving in real time during the replay. Don't just cut-away and have players somewhere it's theoretically impossible to get to in such a period of time. See where I'm going here? Never take the gameplay camera off the players. No cut-scenes at all - just let everything happen in real time. Write a MASSIVE scripting engine to control the players in between plays so there is no cutting away or jumping from everyone being on the ground after a play to already being lined up at the line of scrimmage with a click of a button. Make it all 100% natural and real-time looking. And only allow the option of a high-speed FAST FORWARD to get things sped-up for people who are in a rush. That's how you fix on-the-field presentation IMO. [I know this is a pipe-dream, but this is what I would hope for is a true Football SIM]

In short, real time presentation. The Show did this well, but not quite well enough. (I.e. the same "hold the helmet" trot after a HR, and no celebration at home plate).

But overall, they captured the feel of being at the ballpark.

[Netherscourge]

Quote: Originally Posted by Segagendude

In short, real time presentation. The Show did this well, but not quite well enough. (I.e. the same "hold the helmet" trot after a HR, and no celebration at home plate). But overall, they captured the feel of being at the ballpark.

EXACTLY!

There's just no need to pull away and queue up an out-of-synch cut-scene for everything in the game when the gameplay engine itself is good enough to just implement some scripted interactions right on the field after the whistle blows.

They have branching animations - why not just branch the whole game, before and after each play? Keep the cameras rolling and let the players act it out for us when we're not actually controlling them.

Plus - it might save some disc space getting rid of the animated cut-scene art/videos and just using scripted code in it's place.

[K_GUN]

Quote: Originally Posted by rgiles36

That's my point. Those guys aren't incompetent. So while I'm not breaking news or anything, I'm really starting to feel their style of presentation is intentional. They borrow some broadcast elements but that's as far as it goes.

and to piggyback....

if your EA and you 'emulate' 2k5 presentation then it's met with:

* that was done 6 years ago

-------------OR--------------

* that was done 6 years ago--but better

[johnprestonevans]

Quote: Originally Posted by Netherscourge

Here's the tagline they can sell: "Never take the camera off the players. NEVER" What does that mean?... Different, changing, boroadcast-style camera angles of course - but they must all be synched up to the players on the field. -No "skipping" from the end of a play right back to the line of scrimmage with everyone already lined up and ready to go. -Let the game engine automatically control the players after each play and follow them around as they mill around, chat with each other, get a quick drink from a water bottle, consult with coaches, wait for plays to come in, huddle up, etc... but do NOT take the camera off of them. Have overlays with playcalling and stuff - but make sure you can see the players and coaches in the background - NO CUT-SCENES. Let the game engine keep running the whole time and have the players and coaches and even the announcers discussing stuff as it would happen in real life on live TV. Replays are fine after plays too - but keep the players positioned and milling around in real-time so after the replay the players are still realistically simulated to where they were going to before the replay started. -If people don't want to wait for stuff - then allow a "Fast Foward" opton, sort of like the REWIND option in Madden 10, where everything moves in superfast speed, up to the next play. But DO NOT SKIP OVER anything - just have the game engine go high-speed to the next play or the end of halftime or whatever. (I think this could be better handled with a "Level" of Presentation selection in the game's menu - see below) Make it all 100% natural and real-time looking. And only allow the option of a high-speed FAST FORWARD to get things sped-up for people who are in a rush. That's how you fix on-the-field presentation IMO. [I know this is a pipe-dream, but this is what I would hope for is a true Football SIM]

EA are you listening?

Great post. I agree with most of what you said. I love the idea of REAL-TIME Presentation - much like NBA2K and MLB The Show does it. Using the game's engine to make things happen and using PROPER telecast/broadcast cameras and editing to capture it all in real time.

The game definitely needs an option to select the "Type" (In Stands, Telecast, On Field, Default) or "Level" (Full, Moderate, Few, None) of Presentation that you want. Not everyone likes watching the between the whistles stuff nor with the same camera options. But I want my games to look like they do on TV. I know EA Tiburon has their own idea of Presentation and that's great, but give us the option to see it how we see it every Sunday.

The only time I want the camera to cut away from players is to show me replays and highlights - not only from my own game, but other games around the league (Game Breaks). And of course for a commentated Sports Center halftime/postgame show that covers highlights, scores, stats and stories happening in the league and in our game.

I think the OP's idea is great and I would love it if EA took a year to really get their presentation fixed. I want to be immersed as if the game im playing looks exactly like a game id be watching on television.