Werewolf XXVI: The Thing - GAME OVER! THINGS WIN!!! [Archive] - Page 2

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Raiders Army

04-14-2006, 01:24 PM

RIP Qwik. I assume that was Barkeep's kill. Hmmmm....I guess since there was no description of a conversion, nothing happened last night and we can trust Jeebs?

Coffee Warlord

04-14-2006, 01:46 PM

path12

04-14-2006, 02:18 PM

RIP Qwik. I assume that was Barkeep's kill. Hmmmm....I guess since there was no description of a conversion, nothing happened last night and we can trust Jeebs?

I'm just assuming there is a conversion nightly. I don't see why it would be spelled out in the commentary.

dubb93

04-14-2006, 02:43 PM

UUHHHHHH....

Vote JeeberD

Schmidty

04-14-2006, 02:48 PM

What is everyone's opinion about the weekend schedule? Should we have the vote deadline tonight, or monday? If we end it tonight, then night actions will be due by tomorrow morning, and Day 3 will extend through monday.

st.cronin

04-14-2006, 02:48 PM

VOTE DUBB

He's who I would have tried to convert were I a thing. I would not have gone after Jeebs, since, if there is an 'herbalist' role, he would have been the most logical one to protect.

Raiders Army

04-14-2006, 03:01 PM

As we still have pretty much nothing to go on, and I think, at this point, a vote on Jeeber is a waste (we have to clear some more people first - we can't just do repeat votes on the same person)....

There are a few people I fear as "wolves" always. I want him either cleared or killed.

Vote Raiders Army
Why fear me? I'm practically nothing. :)

Anyhow, I vote for ending the voting tonight. I'm not sure what to make of dubb and st. cronin's votes without a little further analysis.

hoopsguy

04-14-2006, 03:03 PM

I'm worried about people being around between noon and the deadline today, in light of Good Friday/Easter. I'm fine either way, but hoping that if the deadline is tonight that we have good representation this evening.

I'll be out for the day sometime between 6-7 EST and not back until Sunday.

I was hoping there would be something in the description that would indicate if a conversion took place.

Without the benefit of that, I would like to have Barkeep pop in to confirm that he was responsible for killing Qwikshot. If so, then perhaps he has some idea if he killed a human or a Thing. Qwik is one of the people that was a little higher on my suspicious list than average by the end of the day.

hoopsguy

04-14-2006, 03:04 PM

CW - is your vote for Raiders based upon him as an original Thing or based on believing he was converted last night?

hoopsguy

04-14-2006, 03:06 PM

Inside you find a large black mass of burning flesh. At first, you assume it's a dog, but when you get closer you see that although having almost been reduce to cinders, there are what resemble the arms and legs of a human

OK, so since there was nothing here that looked like non-human parts I would initially suspect that Qwik was human.

Why would Qwik be in the kennel? Are there any roles from the movie that seem to click for anyone with this?

JeeberD

04-14-2006, 03:09 PM

Weekends are always busy for me, I would prefer if we suspended the game until Monday after tonight...

Vote dubb

I know I'm clean and I think the Thing(s) would know better than to go after me so soon. His vote for me seems kinda wasteful...

Coffee Warlord

04-14-2006, 03:09 PM

CW - is your vote for Raiders based upon him as an original Thing or based on believing he was converted last night?

To be honest? Neither. I'm shooting in the dark. Since people don't die this game, and continually become Things, it's REAL rough.

My only logic for voting Raiders is simply what I'm stating: Raiders is a quality player, I've played with him as a wolf, and know he's good at it. I'd like to see if he's human.

If he's cleared then converted, then, like everyone, his posting style will likely change.

Hi Raiders. :)

JeeberD

04-14-2006, 03:10 PM

Why would Qwik be in the kennel? Are there any roles from the movie that seem to click for anyone with this?

It's been a long time since I've seen the movie, but I remember there being one dude who was in charge of the dogs and was very protective of them. Of course, I think he was one of the first ones to be converted...

Coffee Warlord

04-14-2006, 03:11 PM

Btw hoops, ordinarily you'd be the one I'd shoot for first, but I think you're on the level this time around.

Raiders Army

04-14-2006, 03:14 PM

I'm gonna rent this movie tonight.

hoopsguy

04-14-2006, 03:16 PM

Jeebs, I think it is safe to say that he wasn't converted last night - perhaps an original thing, but not much in the description to make me lean that way.

Coffee - based on Day 1 posts, I don't think that Raiders started as a Thing.

Jeebs (directed at you since you are around and have seen the movie) - do the conversions in the movies involve an audible component? Or are they silent, giving the other scientists no clue when a conversion has taken place? Or was it some mixture of both? Just trying to understand if there is a game mechanic that I should be looking for in Schmidty's posts to understand if a conversion took place.

We've been making the assumption that they get a conversion every night. I'm going to be surprised at the end of the game if that is the case, unless the scientists have some pretty potent roles to help combat this. I think it is more likely they have a set number of conversions over the course of the game - perhaps one on even numbered days (starting with Day 2) or on even numbered days? If a scenario like this is the case then it would make sense that there was nothing in the description last night to indicate a conversion.

hoopsguy

04-14-2006, 03:18 PM

Coffee, I am "on the level" so far - depending on how conversions work I can't make any long-term promises ... but I'm definitely trying to advance the scientist cause for as long as the Things leave me alone.

Raiders Army

04-14-2006, 03:19 PM

We've been making the assumption that they get a conversion every night. I'm going to be surprised at the end of the game if that is the case, unless the scientists have some pretty potent roles to help combat this. I think it is more likely they have a set number of conversions over the course of the game - perhaps one on even numbered days (starting with Day 2) or on even numbered days? If a scenario like this is the case then it would make sense that there was nothing in the description last night to indicate a conversion.
Didn't I say that last page?

Anyhow, I think the conversions were silent.

Abe Sargent

04-14-2006, 03:21 PM

JeeberD

04-14-2006, 03:24 PM

Jeebs (directed at you since you are around and have seen the movie) - do the conversions in the movies involve an audible component? Or are they silent, giving the other scientists no clue when a conversion has taken place? Or was it some mixture of both? Just trying to understand if there is a game mechanic that I should be looking for in Schmidty's posts to understand if a conversion took place.

From what I remember there weren't really any clues. I remember they caught The Thing in the act of converting one guy and he was lying on the floor covered in goo with tentacles writhing over his body. But catching that was pure luck, they just happened to go into a storage room where it was happening.

But like I said earlier, it's been YEARS since I last saw the movie, so my memory could possibly be faulty.

dubb93

04-14-2006, 03:29 PM

Qwikshot

04-14-2006, 03:35 PM

I love that movie...sorry I'm dead.

st.cronin

04-14-2006, 03:38 PM

Vote me, it will just clear me and make for another wasted vote. If I was a thing last night, which I wasn't, I would have converted Jeebs. Why? Look at how the voting has swinged since I voted for him.

"They wouldn't be dumb enough to go after Jeebs." Of course they would on night 1. He was the only guy that was cleared to that point. With that said, if you guys think it is best to clear me, keep your votes on me. I'd be more than happy to be cleared.

I wasn't thinking it would be DUMB to go after jeebs, just that it would be a higher percentage play to go after somebody else. If there was a herbalist in the game, he's either going to protect jeebs or not. If not, who is he going to protect? Lots of good candidates - it's a better play to pick somebody other than jeebs, since we'd have to get real lucky to pick exactly the right guy.

I assume the badguys don't know either way if there's an herbalist or not.

All that said, I don't like the mini-bandwagon.

Schmidty

04-14-2006, 03:59 PM

Ok, I'm going to delay the day 2 vote until Monday night because of the holiday weekend.

Qwikshot

04-14-2006, 05:43 PM

http://homepage.powerup.com.au/~vampire/thing/thing.htm

This is a brush up on the movie. It evens has the short story in full.

Raiders Army

04-14-2006, 05:46 PM

I'm glad the vote got delayed now. Going to watch the movie in a little bit.

Schmidty

04-14-2006, 05:46 PM

http://homepage.powerup.com.au/~vampire/thing/thing.htm

This is a brush up on the movie. It evens has the short story in full.

I knew I mangled it in certain places, but it wouldn't have worked if it was exactly like the movie anyway (I think).

JeeberD

04-14-2006, 05:48 PM

Oh hell yeah, great find, Qwik!

Schmidty

04-14-2006, 05:58 PM

One rule clarification: In the case of a tie vote, no testing will occur that day.

dubb93

04-14-2006, 06:49 PM

:sigh: I'm getting tired of the bad weather this year. We are under a tornado warning for about the 5th time in the last 2 weeks.

dubb93

04-14-2006, 07:14 PM

That was a pretty mean storm. We missed the most of it, but about a mile away there was 100MPH winds. Still it looked like we got about golf size hail and the power went out for a couple of minutes.

Blade6119

04-14-2006, 08:22 PM

Vote Barkeep49

Blade6119

04-14-2006, 08:28 PM

RIP Qwik. I assume that was Barkeep's kill. Hmmmm....I guess since there was no description of a conversion, nothing happened last night and we can trust Jeebs?
To explain my vote for barkeep, we know of only one thing that happened last night. Qwikshot was killed. Barkeep called he would kill someone, and he says he knows he killed a thing. So either barkeep is a thing and lying, or barkeep has a special role and in my mind becomes conversion target#1 last night...id say in regards to dubb, raiders, and hoops...we know at least 2, prob. all 3 were villagers yesterday. Lets find the initial bad guys and work from there. I see it as either we clear him and find out through that qwik was bad and use that to find the others, or hes bad and we use that to find the others.

Barkeep49

04-14-2006, 08:40 PM

Fair enough. Test me and we find that I'm innocent which I like. However we don't nail a thing. As we now have a good amount of time I will gladly

Unvote Hoops

Barkeep49

04-15-2006, 10:58 PM

To bump this:

I could go and look, but to try and generate some activity who was on our cleared list from the "brilliant" quote from day 1?

Blade6119

04-16-2006, 05:14 AM

To bump this:

I could go and look, but to try and generate some activity who was on our cleared list from the "brilliant" quote from day 1?

I went back and tried to give the first post by every player after the reveal of the topic(and the two comments by swaggs and myself that triggered the topic) that addressed in any form the topic of the brilliant. At the bottom, i listed players that posted but with no mention of brilliant. Post #s are included for reference, and i hope this meets your requirements. Its interesting, as some of it seems 100% rock solid to me(dubb knowing the simple part that hadnt been said, raiders saying he trusted me on the brilliant thing before anyone brought it up), while others are a bit flakey and interesting. Qwikshot, who is now dead, is in red. Barkeep, can you confirm you killed qwikshot and he was a bad guy? Havent heared you make the leap from im going to kill, i did kill, i killed a thing, and finally the last leap i havent seen of i killed qwikshot, a thing.

#107Checking in and watching things closely.

BTW, Brilliant idea for a Werewolf game. Well done Schmidty.
#110Another game, another time for you all to be in reverance of how brilliant i am :)
#174I have a feeling about Blade that he's a good guy (again). hoops I have no idea about. FWIW, I feel about as good about Blade as I feel as bad about saldana. Blade said that he was brilliant like me. saldana said he was a regular scientist which rang a little strange to me.

As it stands right now, I'm not changing my vote. I'm out until after Survivor (it's over 9 EST).
#180Raiders, if we are coming out with the "brilliant" bit then you actually missed someone who said it - Swaggs.

I had seen this when I posted in #143 but didn't want to bring this out.

If you read between the lines, you can construe that I had some reads on who might be a scientist and it was because of the use of the word brilliant, which was found in my scientist description.

This type of hint is becoming the new "villager secret code" which I don't really think is 100% in the spirit of the game. I know that in the next game I run that I will make deliberate efforts to negate this type of play for all parties.
#183Actually I think this hurts you a little in my book Hoopsguy. If you don't quite get the "brilliant" blurb, that leads me to believe you didn't get a simliar PM to what some of the rest of us got. It refers to us as simple, but brilliant :). I didn't want to bring that up, but since it is already out in the open I see no problem with it.

What you quoted has nothing to do with that.
#185could you at least try to put comments into context....blade never said he was a brillian scientist...in fact, he has never even posted the standard "scientist checking in" statement, brilliant or otherwise. all he said was that this game is another opportunity for us to bask in his brilliance.

so then, everyone that didnt say "brilliant" in their check in posts must be a thing....that means that anyone that said "regular", "clean", "simple" or just "scientist" must be a thing.....outstanding logic...by this reasoning, the following is a list of the things:

tanglewood - just said scientist
mckerney - just said scientist
hoops - just said scientist
wfu - said clean scientist
jeebs - said he was clean
path - said he was a thespian
saldana - said he was regular

this doesnt even account for the people that didnt say anything, used the word brilliant in another form, or didnt check in at all....nice logic...if we all learned anything from the Lost game, its that the DM should have sent out different PM's to everyone to stop this from happening...i know i did for starwars...every pm was different.
#190unvote hoops
vote cronin

At hoops request; I think you are reading far too into it...I mean, that's a lot of scrutinzing to catch brilliant and regular scientist...
#247As for the brilliant thing in the PM's, I didn't mention it because I'm in the camp that it's a little unbalancing. The main issue in the game as I see it is that once someone is cleared they can become converted that night.

I think the key is in the double vote days. For instance, if we can bag a thing on the first vote I'd go for one of the cleared people on the second in order to stop the spread.
#248I also didn't put anything in my first post as I see it as a kind of meta-gaming. No tthe more serious kind which I think people should be removed from playing for, but a slightly grey area over gaming ethics if it should be allowed IMHO.

Of course another reason is that I don't think it's all that usefull as major proponents want to make out. Firstly, it's quite possible that the Things can latch onto a group early on, an expereinced player could pick up on certain phrases or words and drop them into his post. Then we have 'cleared' a Thing for nothing more than doing a good job of straightowardly imitating someone else (I believe that a few games ago Blade complained that a wolf, AlanT IIRC, did this, simply imitating his posting style and use of phrase, thus Blade cleared him). Another is that it's not necessarily true that we all got the same PM, nor can we be certain that everything in our PM was not sent to the Things also. Of course, if the Things got the info in our PM then it all goes to hell as they jump in the 'cleared' group and all of us are pretty much walking blind. In that not unlikely scenario it's more helpful to [i]not[/i ] mention PMs at all.
WVU, CW, Mckerney, St. Cronin, Anxiety, Jeeber, Barkeep, and Qwikshot by my account made comments after the brilliant part was revealed that made no mention of the brilliant part in a PM or about the topic at all.

Raiders Army

04-16-2006, 07:14 AM

After watching the movie again, this was the best quote, which sums up WW games :) :

I know I'm human. And if you were all these things, then you'd just attack me right now, so some of you are still human. This thing doesn't want to show itself, it wants to hide inside an imitation. It'll fight if it has to, but it's vulnerable out in the open. If it takes us over, then it has no more enemies, nobody left to kill it. And then it's won.

From the movie, I can't discern if someone would make a noise if they got converted. When the dogs were being converted, they barked and whined and people heard them; however, when Garry got attacked at the end of the movie, MacReady didn't hear anything.

Qwikshot

04-16-2006, 08:11 AM

After watching the movie again, this was the best quote, which sums up WW games :) :

From the movie, I can't discern if someone would make a noise if they got converted. When the dogs were being converted, they barked and whined and people heard them; however, when Garry got attacked at the end of the movie, MacReady didn't hear anything.

That's because the Thing had his hand over the mouth.

Barkeep49

04-16-2006, 10:18 AM

So as far as I am concerned that means that Swaggs, Blade, Raiders, and Hoops are unlikely Day 1 things.

I know Qwikshot was and that I am not, though the rest of you do not know this. We tested JeeberD so he's also not a Day 1 thing.

That leaves:
2. st.cronin
3. tanglewood
6. dubb93
8. path12
9. saldana
12. mckerney
13. Coffee Warlord
14. Anxiety
16. WVUFAN

A 1 in 8 shot isn't so hot, but I don't know where else to go from here.

hoopsguy

04-16-2006, 10:57 AM

I think you can take Dubb off of that 'Day 1' list, based on Post #183 (referenced by Blade above).

Also, if we assume that Qwikshot was a Thing, it is important to note that he changed his vote from me to Cronin in Post #190 - this is not reflected in Schmidty's final vote shown in #216.

This makes me more likely to trust Cronin on this list. I accept that it is entirely possible for Qwikshot to have voted for a fellow Thing on Day 1, but he was Vote #3 on him and Jeebs only had four votes. I think the margin was too narrow for that play.

So I think we are narrowing the list to six people.

Raiders Army

04-16-2006, 11:18 AM

That's because the Thing had his hand over the mouth.
Actually, the Thing had its hand in his mouth. :)
We also don't know what happened to the other black dude with the headband.

Barkeep49

04-16-2006, 12:49 PM

Ok I will buy the idea that dubb and cronin should be safe, though by including dubb as safe you become suspicious again, as dubb was hinting at the idea that you didn't really know the code, but simply saw others doing it. I still think there was too little of it for someone to catch it, so for now let's say we have six:
tanglewood
path12
saldana
mckerney
Coffee Warlord
Anxiety
WVUFAN

Let's see what we find when looking at each person's posts:

Tanglewood:
88 - Checks in
159 As a Thing, a clear strategy is to try and get people on their side who are tested early. However, if we then take that to mean that we shouldn't regard testing as accurate then we throw away our only weapon and are down to flying on instinct, so we have to place some faith in the test results at least. I reckon that we will need wither a good slice of luck at a cruical point or a monumental performance from one or two peeps to win this.
161 - Does a supposedly random D1 vote for path
248 - Claims not to have put in brillaint due to metagaming concerns. Further states
Of course another reason is that I don't think it's all that usefull as major proponents want to make out. Firstly, it's quite possible that the Things can latch onto a group early on, an expereinced player could pick up on certain phrases or words and drop them into his post. Then we have 'cleared' a Thing for nothing more than doing a good job of straightowardly imitating someone else (I believe that a few games ago Blade complained that a wolf, AlanT IIRC, did this, simply imitating his posting style and use of phrase, thus Blade cleared him). Another is that it's not necessarily true that we all got the same PM, nor can we be certain that everything in our PM was not sent to the Things also. Of course, if the Things got the info in our PM then it all goes to hell as they jump in the 'cleared' group and all of us are pretty much walking blind. In that not unlikely scenario it's more helpful to not mention PMs at all.

Path
98- Checks in
102 - Responds to CW's path is a lesbian post
106 - Responds to cronin telling him to rent The Fog
160 - Votes cronin for admittedly no reason
247
As for the brilliant thing in the PM's, I didn't mention it because I'm in the camp that it's a little unbalancing. The main issue in the game as I see it is that once someone is cleared they can become converted that night.

I think the key is in the double vote days. For instance, if we can bag a thing on the first vote I'd go for one of the cleared people on the second in order to stop the spread.
253 - Doesn't believe conversion would be spelled out in nightly write-ups

Saldana
112 - Checks in as a "regular" scientist. This is two posts after Blade saying how brilliant he is. Also says he'd have voted for dubb if Schmidty allowed it.
134 - Votes for dubb as a "no brainer"
135 - Talks about the possiblity of running the table fairly quickly
136 - Replies to dubb's vote: "friggin amateur!"
141 - Comments on slow day, asking where blade and hoops are
146 - In response to raiders:
interesting, i always enjoy watching who the first person to put a second vote on someone is, especially iirc, you are usually one to avoid having your vote be significant on day one.[/i]
171 - Believes some have immunity from becoming Things. Thinks there are likely 2 and no more then 3 Things
185 - Responding to further pressure from Raiders:
[quote]could you at least try to put comments into context....blade never said he was a brillian scientist...in fact, he has never even posted the standard "scientist checking in" statement, brilliant or otherwise. all he said was that this game is another opportunity for us to bask in his brilliance.

so then, everyone that didnt say "brilliant" in their check in posts must be a thing....that means that anyone that said "regular", "clean", "simple" or just "scientist" must be a thing.....outstanding logic...by this reasoning, the following is a list of the things:

tanglewood - just said scientist
mckerney - just said scientist
hoops - just said scientist
wfu - said clean scientist
jeebs - said he was clean
path - said he was a thespian
saldana - said he was regular

this doesnt even account for the people that didnt say anything, used the word brilliant in another form, or didnt check in at all....nice logic...if we all learned anything from the Lost game, its that the DM should have sent out different PM's to everyone to stop this from happening...i know i did for starwars...every pm was different.
172 - Says he has no problem being tested
202 - Asks if I am in the game
243 -
1. i like the idea of looking for the orginal first, this is what i was talking about trying to do about 150 posts ago when i said we could run the table on the things in one night, depending on how many there are

2. regarding my reaction to RA,vanyone that has played enough of these games with me will see a familiarity with what i had to say and how i said it...the logic was deeply flawed, and i cant stand people basing their decisions on flawed logic...it irritates the crap out of me, not to mention that outing something like that on the first day is a bad move...iirc, the survivors kept it under their hats for 3 days and it worked alot more in their favor.

3. i will be out most of the day, driving to baltimore.
245 - Meaningless response about deadlines

mckerney
89 - Checks in as scientist
154 - Votes for CW for calling someone a TO lover (as in Terrell Owens)
242
We do have the ability to test a second person if we catch a thing, so maybe the best idea for now would be to try and go for an original at first, then a possible convert if we get one.

Coffee Warlord
97 - Asks not to be tested since he's afraid of needles
99 - Says Path is a lesbian and so we should kill him
101 - Reminds that it's Night 0 so no vote
104 - In response to Jeeber commenting on the needles says we shouldn't listen to Cowboys fans
139 - Votes for Jeeber for secretly loving TO
156 -
Which is also the problem. Do we waste votes the next day on people cleared, or do we go after others? Rough.
162 - Hopes that that we have ways of clearing people besides votes
169 - Wonders how a day's second vote will work
170 - Realizes that second vote is only if we get a Thing
207 - Meaningless
208 - Votes for me to see if I'm on the up and up
209 - Realizes vote for me doesn't count as it's after deadline
234 - Says it would hugely suck if I kill him
244 - Schedule question
252 -
As we still have pretty much nothing to go on, and I think, at this point, a vote on Jeeber is a waste (we have to clear some more people first - we can't just do repeat votes on the same person)....

There are a few people I fear as "wolves" always. I want him either cleared or killed.

Vote Raiders Army
262 - Says vote for Raiders is shot in the dark and is out of respect for his previous wolfing.
264 - Thinks hoops is on the level

Anxiety
85 - Says is first game and so will "stand back"
91 - Comments on the stupid ritual (my words not his) of claiming to be a villager regardless of actual role
115 - Officially declares he's not a thing
130 - Can't make sense of post, though it's in response to Blade telling him how to vote
132 - Votes for Tanglewood for being too eager
133 - Deleted and reposted something (I think it's Tangle's vote)
269 - Votes for dubb, following Jeeber's logic

WVU
94 - Clean scientist
114 - Says all non-Patriots' fans are things
149 - Votes for Jeeber because he was beating him in Civ4
189 -
As someone else has said, this game is heavily slanted to the Things, since no one will truly ever be safe. I just have the nagging feeling we're gonna wind up testing the same people over and over under the assumption that the Things will infect those pronounced "clean" on the prior night's test. We have no way to prounouncing anyone "safe", unlike prior games.

Tricky game. This is gonna be tough.

Abe Sargent

04-16-2006, 12:58 PM

My name should be bold too.

-Anxiety

Abe Sargent

04-16-2006, 12:59 PM

How are you guys not violating this?

THERE WILL BE NO MORE DISCUSSION OF PMs IN ANY FORM IN THIS GAME.

I thought you guys would know that, since it was considered dishonorable after the Lost game.

-Anxiety

st.cronin

04-16-2006, 01:17 PM

How are you guys not violating this?

-Anxiety

no kidding

I mean, wow ...

mckerney

04-16-2006, 01:29 PM

How are you guys not violating this?

-Anxiety

Agreed, though I think it'll wind up doing us more harm than good.

Also, I must apologize for my lack of posts so far in this game. Typing hasn't been real easy for me lately as I had injured my elbow a week ago and yesterday found out that it is broken, leaving it now immobalized in a sling. Will try to be as active as possible, though probably won't be as much as I usually would.

st.cronin

04-16-2006, 01:35 PM

I'm sorry, how do we know Qwik was a Thing?

hoopsguy

04-16-2006, 01:36 PM

I don't think you can undo what is already done - the posts that were already out there are now in the public domain. I took his statement to imply that we should not discuss anything in the original PMs or any PMs going forward that has not been released. For example, if I wanted to try and validate myself as a scientist, there are potentially other words in the role PM that I could post to do that. That won't be happening; Schmidty has made it crystal clear that this would be unacceptable behavior.

Discussing the posts in the thread (not private PMs) is part and parcel with werewolf games and there is really no point in trying to do analysis without making this part of the game.

hoopsguy

04-16-2006, 01:39 PM

We don't - Barkeep has said that he was but I haven't seen anything in the wrap-up message from Schmidty (post #250) that indicates that he was.

So it comes down to risk analysis - do you think that Barkeep is a Thing and is lying? Or do you think that he is telling the truth? Personally, I don't see a very positive risk/reward for Barkeep to be lying at this stage in the game but it probably makes sense to discuss this.

hoopsguy

04-16-2006, 01:43 PM

Dola - post #299 was a response to this question by Cronin
I'm sorry, how do we know Qwik was a Thing?

st.cronin

04-16-2006, 01:44 PM

How did Barkeep know Qwik was a Thing (if he's telling the truth)?

st.cronin

04-16-2006, 01:46 PM

dola

What I mean is, did BK just get lucky?

hoopsguy

04-16-2006, 01:47 PM

Cronin, I'm hoping that Barkeep will come forward with a little more info on this topic for us between now and Monday night. Without, of course, directly quoting a PM.

st.cronin

04-16-2006, 01:48 PM

Cronin, I'm hoping that Barkeep will come forward with a little more info on this topic for us between now and Monday night. Without, of course, directly quoting a PM.

I hope so too.

It looks to me like Barkeep definitely killed Qwik, but I think the circumstances are suspicious. I wonder if we could test Qwik's remains?

st.cronin

04-16-2006, 02:01 PM

dola

There is the assumption in a number of posts that it's preferable to finding 'Original Things' as opposed to 'converted Things.' I don't know if I disagree, but I think it's worth some discussion

hoopsguy

04-16-2006, 02:18 PM

I agree with revisiting this. If we take Barkeep at his word that we killed a Thing last night then the odds may not be as high at targeting an original versus trying to guess who was converted (assuming a conversion took place last night). When I had initially commented on this (post #239) I was working with the idea that there were at least two Things on Day 1 and that we had better odds of hitting an original than guessing the convert.

A lot of this conversation took place between posts #239 and 243.

Going to read the link that Qwikshot put up Friday night.

Raiders Army

04-16-2006, 03:38 PM

I hope so too.

It looks to me like Barkeep definitely killed Qwik, but I think the circumstances are suspicious. I wonder if we could test Qwik's remains?
Good point. I wonder this as well. In the movie MacReady tested the Doc and Clark's blood and they checked out. I think that at the very least we could open them up and see if there was anything alien in there. :)

Blade6119

04-16-2006, 03:40 PM

Good point. I wonder this as well. In the movie MacReady tested the Doc and Clark's blood and they checked out. I think that at the very least we could open them up and see if there was anything alien in there. :)
Would it not be better to test barkeep and that way clear him and find out on qwikshot...he says he knows he killed a thing, not he thought...i dont get why you would test the dead body instead of him

Blade6119

04-16-2006, 03:41 PM

dola, and barkeeps avoidance of my question for him in my massive points dissapoints me...and his immediate clearing of hoops and not dubb concerns me as well

Raiders Army

04-16-2006, 03:43 PM

Would it not be better to test barkeep and that way clear him and find out on qwikshot...he says he knows he killed a thing, not he thought...i dont get why you would test the dead body instead of him
/agree

Just stating that in the movie, the doc and Blair (Wilford Brimley, whom I didn't remember being in the movie) did the autopsies. Perhaps the doctor role can perform autopsies?

tanglewood

04-16-2006, 03:51 PM

hoopsguy

04-16-2006, 04:10 PM

In fairness, I don't think anyone is clear right now, assuming that a conversion took place last night. If there is a protector role out there, then they should know of two people that were not converted last night - said bodyguard and the person they protected. But the rest of us are flying blind. That is what is going to be one of the more interesting aspects of this game.

This is where I think it is still easier to go after an original Thing, rather than chasing after a possible conversion. If hunting an original, we are looking for 1-2 in a smaller group (6-9) versus 2-3 in a larger group (15).

st.cronin

04-16-2006, 04:23 PM

/agree

Just stating that in the movie, the doc and Blair (Wilford Brimley, whom I didn't remember being in the movie) did the autopsies. Perhaps the doctor role can perform autopsies?

Hadn't occured to me that that might be a special role. I understand the "playing the odds" reasoning for trying to hunt an original instead of a convert ... I just don't think we have the pool winnowed down quite THAT much.

The more I think about it, the more I think Barkeep is NOT the way to go (not that I think he's cleared - just that he's such an obvious play, that if he is a Thing, we're being played in some way that I can't quite see). I think it makes the most sense to go after the best player who we didn't test yesterday. That's why I voted for dubb - I think the Thing(s) would have tried to convert a strong, clever player.

Poli

04-16-2006, 04:40 PM

...

Raiders Army

04-16-2006, 04:42 PM

Thoughts about the game vs. movie:

Schmidty said he was going from memory on this game, so I don't think we can equate the game to the movie. That being said, I highly doubt there was a conversion on night 1. It didn't sound as if there was one, and I would guess that the Thing(s) would have a shot at doing it on Night 2.

If the game is different from the movie, then there is a possibilty (not probability) that the Original Thing(s) could be the only ones that could infect others. In that respect, I think it's more imperative to go after an original Thing and much easier to snag one as opposed to a converted person.

I doubt Jeebs and Barkeep are Things because of the arguments already made. I'd focus on Barkeep's posts #289 and #292 and pick someone from his list.

hoopsguy

04-16-2006, 05:05 PM

Forgot to type this earlier - sorry to hear about your elbow, mckerney. Hope it heals quickly.

Barkeep49

04-16-2006, 05:09 PM

How did Barkeep know Qwik was a Thing (if he's telling the truth)?
Cause when I killed the cunt I found out. Test me, test him whatever the fuck you want but if you're going to fucking prick me don't be a pussy about it. Put the god damn vote out there already so then we can waste another day and have found out nothing that a little bit of Keeping It Simple Shithead couldn't already tell you. You prick me and you find out that I'm telling the truth today, but then so fucking what? You, me, your whore of a mother, we all could be Things by tomorrow. I say we have six and it's a damn nice place to start.

And as for Blade listen closely cumguzzler: Qwik was a Thing. He was a wolf. Whatever the fuck you want to call it he was out to try and fucking screw us over like a .05 whore. And now he's dead because I killed him.

And let's just be clear. Next time you fucking want me to answer one of your pissant questions why don't you fucking ask it somewhere cleary instead of burying it in the middle of a 20 page post. Then you won't think I am ignoring you, because I ain't afraid of you or your brilliance one iota.

st.cronin

04-16-2006, 05:10 PM

Cause when I killed the cunt I found out. Test me, test him whatever the fuck you want but if you're going to fucking prick me don't be a pussy about it. Put the god damn vote out there already so then we can waste another day and have found out nothing that a little bit of Keeping It Simple Shithead couldn't already tell you. You prick me and you find out that I'm telling the truth today, but then so fucking what? You, me, your whore of a mother, we all could be Things by tomorrow. I say we have six and it's a damn nice place to start.

And as for Blade listen closely cumguzzler: Qwik was a Thing. He was a wolf. Whatever the fuck you want to call it he was out to try and fucking screw us over like a .05 whore. And now he's dead because I killed him.

And let's just be clear. Next time you fucking want me to answer one of your pissant questions why don't you fucking ask it somewhere cleary instead of burying it in the middle of a 20 page post. Then you won't think I am ignoring you, because I ain't afraid of you or your brilliance one iota.

I think somebody couldn't find all their eggs this morning.

tanglewood

04-16-2006, 05:11 PM

Barkeep49

04-16-2006, 05:20 PM

dola

What I mean is, did BK just get lucky?
Yeah sure I got a little lucky. But the signs were all there to be seen, once I decided to do it and so I felt no fucking regret at disposing of what needed be taken out.

Barkeep49

04-16-2006, 05:28 PM

:eek:

Angry much Barkeep?
Only at the sphincter licking Things.

st.cronin

04-16-2006, 05:30 PM

hoopsguy

04-16-2006, 05:41 PM

How much do you think Schmidty enjoyed sending Barkeep a role PM telling him to swear in every other post? LOL, one way to make sure someone else gets the "angriest man in WW" rep.

JeeberD

04-16-2006, 05:56 PM

Yeah, barkeep is definitely Childs... :D

Raiders Army

04-16-2006, 08:18 PM

Boy, don't make me open up a can of whoop-ass!
Oh man! How'd you get the beans above the frank?

Ooops. Wrong movie.

hoopsguy

04-17-2006, 07:51 AM

(taps microphone)

This thing on?

Qwikshot

04-17-2006, 07:58 AM

(taps microphone)

This thing on?

I'm here, but I'm dead.

Barkeep49

04-17-2006, 08:11 AM

Coffee how confident are you with your vote on Raiders?

Coffee Warlord

04-17-2006, 08:41 AM

Coffee how confident are you with your vote on Raiders?

Not. But, reading what's been said of late...I've see no reason to change at this point. Fairly certain hoops is alright, unless he's a convert. Any of the other people up for vote, I see no stellar reason why they are a better vote than RA at the moment.

Barkeep49

04-17-2006, 10:11 AM

Barkeep49

04-17-2006, 10:12 AM

Vote Saldana

Let that part out of the post above.

saldana

04-17-2006, 10:29 AM

After reading everything I think Raider's suspicion of saldana was spot on yesterday. Of the six ball sniffers I am looking at he seems to have attracted the most suspicion and for good reason. Let's nail this Thing loving bastard now.

suspect all you want jackass, you can buy into the raiders army school of logic all damn day, i know im a scientist.

as far as why i went back at RA so hard, history between us has me very wary of him....his little "i'm too drunk to read straight, but i ended up being right" nonsense from the lost game has me a little bit defensive when he starts pointing fingers.

i guess it doesnt matter though....we always have the same reactions to accusations in games that we dont actually die.

but since i still think his logic is bullshit

vote raiders army

Barkeep49

04-17-2006, 10:42 AM

I guess I would like to hear more of a rationale of why we should vary from the list of six today. I think tomorrow the list is exponentially less useful but it seems like today are best hope is with the list.

st.cronin

04-17-2006, 10:44 AM

I am uncomfortable with the assumption that there wasn't a conversion last night. Why in the world would we get told that there was one??

Blade6119

04-17-2006, 10:45 AM

Yeah sure I got a little lucky. But the signs were all there to be seen, once I decided to do it and so I felt no fucking regret at disposing of what needed be taken out.
What signs? It would help if we could see your train of thought.
Barkeep, care to answer this question...you keep avoiding answering questions, and somehow avoiding votes as well...

Blade6119

04-17-2006, 10:51 AM

I am uncomfortable with the assumption that there wasn't a conversion last night. Why in the world would we get told that there was one??
I see three scenarios:
1.No conversion last night, they can only do it every other night for balance reasons(doesnt mean they couldnt still kill last night cough cough barkeep)
2.Conversion last night, can do every night(would have had to start with 2 id say...if qwik was converting it kind of makes sense why he was in the kennel)
3.no conversion becuase qwik was going to do it and he got killed by barkeep\

am i missing anything? Of those 3 im currently hung up on #1, but yes i dont think people should discount a conversion last night. The thing is, people think they have better odds looking for an original and not a convert(they say less targets with original, making it easier)....(i say its barkeep and hoops pushing, and their #1/2 on my suspect list so i dont like it one bit)

Barkeep49

04-17-2006, 10:54 AM

I am uncomfortable with the assumption that there wasn't a conversion last night. Why in the world would we get told that there was one??
I agree. I think there was a conversion last night. In fact I don't see much how we can win as unless we nail a Thing each day they will grow pretty quickly into an unbeatable voting block. Never-the-less, I still think taking a shot at an original Thing makes sense on Day 2.

Barkeep49

04-17-2006, 10:58 AM

Barkeep, care to answer this question...you keep avoiding answering questions, and somehow avoiding votes as well...
You're right twithead I didn't answer that question. Missing your hidden question and not answering that one doesn't mean I'm avoiding answering questions. And the reason I didn't answer cronin's question is that I don't want to help the fuckers by giving away what helped me nail them. You won't like that, but I say tough shit.

Blade6119

04-17-2006, 11:00 AM

To me:You're right twithead I didn't answer that question. Missing your hidden question and not answering that one doesn't mean I'm avoiding answering questions. And the reason I didn't answer cronin's question is that I don't want to help the fuckers by giving away what helped me nail them. You won't like that, but I say tough shit.
To CroninI agree. I think there was a conversion last night. In fact I don't see much how we can win as unless we nail a Thing each day they will grow pretty quickly into an unbeatable voting block. Never-the-less, I still think taking a shot at an original Thing makes sense on Day 2.
So hes only mean to me, awesome...maybe schmidty made that his role...be mean to blade....:(

Barkeep49

04-17-2006, 11:05 AM

i say its barkeep and hoops pushing, and their #1/2 on my suspect list so i dont like it one bit)
So why don't you vote for me? I mean it's not like you're holding past games against us or anything. Go ahead vote for us and squander another chance for us to find a thing. You say that we're pushing for a small list? Damn straight. Why don't YOU come up with a reason why we should try and find a convert first. A convert that you admit might not even exist. So Blade or Coffee, or anyone else: Why is trying to find a convert a better idea on Day 2?

Barkeep49

04-17-2006, 11:07 AM

So hes only mean to me, awesome...maybe schmidty made that his role...be mean to blade....:(
He didn't come after me. I see no reason to be pointlessly rude.

Blade6119

04-17-2006, 11:07 AM

So why don't you vote for me?

POST #282Vote Barkeep49
I made that move long ago...now im just feeling around for what pressure points i can find

st.cronin

04-17-2006, 11:09 AM

So why don't you vote for me? I mean it's not like you're holding past games against us or anything. Go ahead vote for us and squander another chance for us to find a thing. You say that we're pushing for a small list? Damn straight. Why don't YOU come up with a reason why we should try and find a convert first. A convert that you admit might not even exist. So Blade or Coffee, or anyone else: Why is trying to find a convert a better idea on Day 2?

Because the list of suspects from day 1 is bullshit. It's just a wag based on nothing substantial. We don't even know if Qwik was a Thing or not, so we can't make any connections to him.

UNVOTE DUBB

VOTE BARKEEP

Blade6119

04-17-2006, 11:10 AM

You say that we're pushing for a small list? Damn straight. Why don't YOU come up with a reason why we should try and find a convert first. A convert that you admit might not even exist. So Blade or Coffee, or anyone else: Why is trying to find a convert a better idea on Day 2?
I just dont like your list since you and hoops arent on it. Neither of you cleared yourself in the brilliant ordeal, but yet conveniently neither of you has said anything but nice about the other...despite you yourself saying you wanted target the uncleared(by cleared i see raiders, dubb, myself, and swaggs...and jeeber)

Coffee Warlord

04-17-2006, 11:11 AM

A convert that you admit might not even exist. So Blade or Coffee, or anyone else: Why is trying to find a convert a better idea on Day 2?

I don't recall *ever* saying going after a convert over an/the original. If I implied it somewhere, whoops.

But then again, I'm not particularly targeting EITHER side. Shooting in the dark, seeing what happens. I'm hoping after another day of talking/voting patterns, I can make a more informed judgement.

Barkeep49

04-17-2006, 11:11 AM

POST #282
I made that move long ago...now im just feeling around for what pressure points i can find
Good. I'm glad to take the votes. I mean it wastes a fucking day, but so what? People don't seem want to find a thing, so might as well clear me for a day. Still don't get why I'm better then the list of six, but if people are going to not vote for the list of six, then I'm as pleased as a pig in shit. Just to ask again: Why is trying to find a convert better then an initial thing?

Barkeep49

04-17-2006, 11:12 AM

I don't recall *ever* saying going after a convert over an/the original. If I implied it somewhere, whoops.

But then again, I'm not particularly targeting EITHER side. Shooting in the dark, seeing what happens. I'm hoping after another day of talking/voting patterns, I can make a more informed judgement.
Coffee I only included you because of your vote on a non-list person.

st.cronin

04-17-2006, 11:12 AM

I don't recall *ever* saying going after a convert over an/the original. If I implied it somewhere, whoops.

But then again, I'm not particularly targeting EITHER side. Shooting in the dark, seeing what happens. I'm hoping after another day of talking/voting patterns, I can make a more informed judgement.

Exactly. Finding an original or convert would be an equally good thing at this point. But there's not enough information to rule out anybody, even Jeebs, who could have been converted.

Barkeep49

04-17-2006, 11:13 AM

Because the list of suspects from day 1 is bullshit. It's just a wag based on nothing substantial. We don't even know if Qwik was a Thing or not, so we can't make any connections to him.

UNVOTE DUBB

VOTE BARKEEP
Yeah but voting for the only fucker to find a Thing? That's substantial. But like I said bring em on. I got 2 votes. Who's next?

Blade6119

04-17-2006, 11:14 AM

Good. I'm glad to take the votes. I mean it wastes a fucking day, but so what? People don't seem want to find a thing, so might as well clear me for a day. Still don't get why I'm better then the list of six, but if people are going to not vote for the list of six, then I'm as pleased as a pig in shit. Just to ask again: Why is trying to find a convert better then an initial thing?
In my mind, i think taking a stab in the dark is a bad move when we have you claiming you killed qwikshot, and he was a thing. We dont know if he was a thing, or even if you are a good guy. So in my mind, clearing you today and therefore damning qwik will give us a set trail to follow. Taking a random stab at your list will likely clear a random person for one day. I see a vote for you being far more productive. Is that a good reason buddy?

Coffee Warlord

04-17-2006, 11:16 AM

Coffee I only included you because of your vote on a non-list person.

Not to be assholish, but what makes "the list" so all powerful?

Barkeep49

04-17-2006, 11:16 AM

Yeah that's an A fucking OK reason. Like I said I couldn't be mroe pleased then to be cleared for a 12 hour cycle.

Barkeep49

04-17-2006, 11:18 AM

Not to be assholish, but what makes "the list" so all powerful?
Because by hook and crook we got a list of people who we can reasonably state got the same PM. Is it all Kosher how we got it? Not really but it's fucking out there and I think we're dumb not to use what we have before the info sours.

Blade6119

04-17-2006, 11:19 AM

Yeah that's an A fucking OK reason. Like I said I couldn't be mroe pleased then to be cleared for a 12 hour cycle.
Its not so much to clear you then to assure that qwikshot was bad...EVERYONE alive right now has fairly equal odds of being bad, clear or not...so knowing qwik was an original thing should give us a base to move forward instead of a random stab that leaves us in the same boat tomorrow were in today if you take the odds.

hoopsguy

04-17-2006, 11:20 AM

Blade, I'm fine with whatever course you want to take in pursuing me this game since getting the most votes doesn't mean instant death. But I would rather we get a Thing on the first try so we can take a stab at another Thing on attempt #2 for the day. With that in mind, I would prefer not to be tested. I recognize that I'm always a top suspect, until proven otherwise, with you in these games and I'm fine with that.

I am surprised that Raiders has gotten multiple votes at this point - I have to believe that people are trying to get the convert without explicit knowledge that a conversion has taken place (seems like a bad strategy). Or that someone has access to more information than I do, which makes them comfortable going down this path (better strategy).

Here is my relative level of worry at this point:
1.) Coffee Warlord - early Day 2 vote for Raiders (talked about this above), general sense of unease with people who express trust in me early in games - possibly because it happens so rarely
2.) Saldana - vociferous attack on Raiders after the brilliant thing came out
3.) Barkeep - I can come up with a scenario where he is playing very aggressive early as the Things attempt to build their numbers. But this seems overly elaborate and doesn't fit with my impressions of his play from previous games
4.) Jeeber - converting the known good ASAP makes sense to me

This list is very subject to change after today - if we don't see any evidence of a conversion during Night 2 then I'm much more worried about how the end game plays out. And I think I'll look harder at deceptive players like Dubb and Blade. But for now I'm looking primarily at the list above.

Blade6119

04-17-2006, 11:22 AM

Because by hook and crook we got a list of people who we can reasonably state got the same PM. Is it all Kosher how we got it? Not really but it's fucking out there and I think we're dumb not to use what we have before the info sours.
And why are you and hoops not on that list of 6? The list, as you stated, was people cleared by the brilliant thing. You were not, and i dont believe hoops was(he commented, but as dubb stated at the time he didnt do anything to clear himself, or reveal any other info.). Just wondering why these omissions were made if you want your list to be legit

Blade6119

04-17-2006, 11:26 AM

Blade, I'm fine with whatever course you want to take in pursuing me this game since getting the most votes doesn't mean instant death.
Dubb seemed to feel the same way...its not that you did anything to earn it, but more so since im not trusting of barkeep yet and he seems overly ready to add you to the cleared list when you didnt do anything to merit it other then agree with raiders. Your play so far has been totally norm, but barkeeps trust of you is worth watching to me.

If i was a wolf, i would have converted someone like WVU or Anxiety last night...just like i expected they arent even being looked at..BUT, often times wolves do exactly the opposite of what i would do, so i dont know...just saying i dont think hoops/barkeep/dubb/raiders/jeeber were converts...id go under the radar at first just to build #s

Barkeep49

04-17-2006, 11:28 AM

Blade6119

04-17-2006, 11:32 AM

So Blade the more I think about it the more you're right. I just can't stomache not trying to find a Thing so my vote will not come to me, but I agree that the rest of you fuckers should seriously decide if finding out that I'm on the up and up about Qwik being a thing is worth it. It's not like there's much of anything there in terms of people dealing with him, but sure if that would make people sleep better at night I can understand the logic.
Well, assuming we take a stab at your list and trust qwik was bad we have at best a 1/6-2/6 chance your saying? And if we miss, we have exactly the same odds tomorrow due to conversion threat...so i just wonder short of getting lucky how it improves our situation. Any ideas?

hoopsguy

04-17-2006, 11:33 AM

Blade, I agree with your logic on targeting a lower profile player, but with one additional reason - by ignoring the "brilliant bloc" they have a better chance of hitting a special role with a convert. Add in the inherent suspicion of the higher profile players alive and I think that is definitely the way I would play it as a Thing.

By the way, I just went back to "the list" and I think Barkeep mis-counted when he said 8 since I saw nine names there. I argued to cross two of them off (Dubb and Cronin) which dropped the list to seven, not six.

The seven (listed in the order Barkeep had them in post #292):
1. tanglewood
2. path12
3. saldana
4. mckerney
5. coffee warlord
6. anxiety
7. wvufan

Barkeep49

04-17-2006, 11:34 AM

See by tomorrow there could have been 2 conversions. Today at worse we have 1. I think today the odds of finding someone outside the list is worse then 1/6.

Blade6119

04-17-2006, 11:37 AM

See by tomorrow there could have been 2 conversions. Today at worse we have 1. I think today the odds of finding someone outside the list is worse then 1/6.
Ok, so its basically come down for me to comparing the odds of hitting a random person and getting lucky, or the odds of you bluffing and hoping the qwikshot thing would clear you(the aggressive play might have been in response to fear over the brilliant thing). Just thinking out loud before i leave.

Hoops, i agree with you here...still thinking as i leave for class now

Barkeep49

04-17-2006, 11:37 AM

Well it's good to know I can't fucking count. Good thing my skills lie in other areas.

saldana

04-17-2006, 11:39 AM

allow me to elaborate a bit on why i voted for raiders.

1. i always find fault with his logic, his accusation of me in this game is no exception, as i think i have already shown

2. i was a little annoyed that he announced the brilliant thing so freaking fast...if you notice a code that allows you to build a circle of trust...why announce it...why not keep it under your hat on the chance that others havent noticed it(which i did), so that you have a group you can trust that may or may not be public knowledge. thats not something a scientist would do, imo. if we remember the lost game, that time, the code stayed hidden for 3 days, and ended up being a complete road map to the others...this time, it got pulled into the open so fast that it isnt nearly as damning.....imo, only a thing would have wanted that exposed so fast.

my vote stays where it is.

barkeep, i don't know what to tell you as far as your suspicions of me go, i dont really understand them other than you are supporting RA from yesterday

hoopsguy

04-17-2006, 11:40 AM

The other part to consider is that there may not have been a conversion last night. Or (remote possibility) that Qwikshot was converted prior to Barkeep killing him - strange things like that seem to happen in werewolf all the time, especially to first-time moderators :)

But that is a big part of why I want to go for an original instead of shooting for a convert - because we don't know if a conversion took place last night or not.

Barkeep, not asking you to share PMs or anything like that, but do you think you would know if you killed an original Thing as opposed to a freshly minted convert?

Barkeep49

04-17-2006, 11:44 AM

I don't think I'd have had any sort of idea about that hoops.

Saldana you claim it's good to keep the code quiet so it's useful and then don't use it yourself when you supposedly saw it? Come on you can do better then that.

saldana

04-17-2006, 11:44 AM

saldana

04-17-2006, 11:45 AM

Barkeep49

04-17-2006, 11:46 AM

and since so much is being made of the list, lets please acknowledge who made the list in the first place...me...and i included myself because i know i have nothing to hide, but realize i have to prove it.
Actually FWIW when I was making my list I went off of what Blade had posted with his recount of the discussion.

Barkeep49

04-17-2006, 11:47 AM

when did i ignore it?
You said you realized the brilliance code. Why didn't you get in on that action then? I mean I agree we shouldn't shout it from roof tops but there were ways for you to have done it, if you were truly in the know.

saldana

04-17-2006, 11:55 AM

You said you realized the brilliance code. Why didn't you get in on that action then? I mean I agree we shouldn't shout it from roof tops but there were ways for you to have done it, if you were truly in the know.

if you go back and look at when i posted my "regular" post, it was after swaggs' comment, which game before the Game Post 1, and after blades'. it wasnt until raiders made his much more obvious comment "simple, but brilliant scientist" that it set off bells and i went back and reread the entire game and noticed the pattern. if i had come back and posted about my brilliance at that point, it would have looked very obvious, more so than raiders, and i didnt want to draw attention to it.

hoopsguy

04-17-2006, 11:56 AM

Saldana, fwiw it was Dubb who validated the "simple" part of the message as well as the "brilliant" which Raiders was the first to use publicly to clear someone.

Raiders - post #123
Simple, but extremely brilliant scientist checking in.

Raiders - post #174
FWIW, I feel about as good about Blade as I feel as bad about saldana. Blade said that he was brilliant like me.

Me - post #180
Raiders, if we are coming out with the "brilliant" bit then you actually missed someone who said it - Swaggs.

Dubb - post #183 (note - posted in its entirety so I'm not accused of shaping posts casting suspicion on me)
Actually I think this hurts you a little in my book Hoopsguy. If you don't quite get the "brilliant" blurb, that leads me to believe you didn't get a simliar PM to what some of the rest of us got. It refers to us as simple, but brilliant http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/images/smilies/smile.gif. I didn't want to bring that up, but since it is already out in the open I see no problem with it.

What you quoted has nothing to do with that.

Saldana - post #185 (long post, just including his list and commentary)
so then, everyone that didnt say "brilliant" in their check in posts must be a thing....that means that anyone that said "regular", "clean", "simple" or just "scientist" must be a thing.....outstanding logic...by this reasoning, the following is a list of the things:

tanglewood - just said scientist
mckerney - just said scientist
hoops - just said scientist
wfu - said clean scientist
jeebs - said he was clean
path - said he was a thespian
saldana - said he was regular

this doesnt even account for the people that didnt say anything, used the word brilliant in another form, or didnt check in at all....nice logic...

hoopsguy

04-17-2006, 12:03 PM

Here are what I have for the current vote counts:

Raiders - CW (252), Saldana (332)
JeeberD - Dubb (254)
Dubb - JeeberD (261), Anxiety (269)
Barkeep - Blade (282), Cronin (343)
Saldana - Barkeep (331)

I'm going to be out for most of the afternoon, but without any further evidence emerging between now and when I check in tonight I won't be voting for either Dubb or Raiders. Maybe Barkeep by following Blade's line of thought (makes sense, but right now I believe him and I don't want to lose a chance at a Thing today) but more likely CW or Saldana.

Raiders Army

04-17-2006, 12:14 PM

as far as why i went back at RA so hard, history between us has me very wary of him....his little "i'm too drunk to read straight, but i ended up being right" nonsense from the lost game has me a little bit defensive when he starts pointing fingers.
LOL. That was great!

Anyhow, again my suspicion of you was not much at all. Enough for a day 1 vote, but I'm not sure about a Day 2 vote based upon the whole "Regular" thing. Looking back, I worded my posts incorrectly; I was far less certain of you being a Thing than you thought I thought. Your reaction was a little strange, but whatever... :)

Raiders Army

04-17-2006, 12:24 PM

VOTE SALDANA

Sorry man. I just don't follow your logic (but maybe that's because I'm illogical). I welcome any votes against me so I know I'm cleared; however, if I am cleared tonight, then it will waste a day of voting. I don't agree with voting for Barkeep, since he does seem to be on the level. You're on his list of six, so I'm going for you.

saldana

04-17-2006, 12:25 PM

LOL. That was great!

Anyhow, again my suspicion of you was not much at all. Enough for a day 1 vote, but I'm not sure about a Day 2 vote based upon the whole "Regular" thing. Looking back, I worded my posts incorrectly; I was far less certain of you being a Thing than you thought I thought. Your reaction was a little strange, but whatever... :)

i agree that my reaction was a bit strange...like i said earlier, its hard to realize in these "no death with the most votes" games that the most votes isnt necessarily a bad thing...i didnt want to die on day one, and keep forgetting that most votes doesnt equal death. (unless youre a thing, which i'm not)

saldana

04-17-2006, 12:27 PM

VOTE SALDANA

You're on his list of six, so I'm going for you.

thats fine, i almost welcome it, since i did make myself a bit of a target on day 1 with my reaction (see post above this one). but can we please stop calling it HIS list....i wrote the damn list!!!

and you arent the only one with logic problems.;)

Abe Sargent

04-17-2006, 01:06 PM

Can't have ties and I find Barkeep way too abusive.

Unvote Dubb

Vote Barkeep

-Anxiety

Blade6119

04-17-2006, 02:10 PM

thats fine, i almost welcome it, since i did make myself a bit of a target on day 1 with my reaction (see post above this one). but can we please stop calling it HIS list....i wrote the damn list!!!

and you arent the only one with logic problems.;)
Do you mean the list of people who didnt check in under brilliant you made? We arent using that list, so stop arguing over it. Barkeep is going off a post he made in response to one of mine that had combined like 50 quotes...back to the game.

path12

04-17-2006, 02:20 PM

I've got a bad tooth and am wrecked on Percoset today, so don't expect any logic to come with this:

VOTE JEEBER

hoopsguy

04-17-2006, 02:44 PM

Cancelled meeting = afternoon that has opened up for werewolf.

Updated vote counts, as of Post #380:

Raiders - CW (252), Saldana (332)
JeeberD - Dubb (254), Path (380)
Dubb - JeeberD (261)
Barkeep - Blade (282), Cronin (343), Anxiety (378)
Saldana - Barkeep (331), Raiders (375)

dubb93

04-17-2006, 03:09 PM

UNVOTE JEEBER

VOTE HOOPSGUY

I want to get an original thing, and I just really feel like Hoopsguy is, to take a phrase from Barkeep, cockslapping us.

hoopsguy

04-17-2006, 03:21 PM

Dubb, you have about as much chance of getting an original thing with this vote as you did when it was on Jeebs.

Seriously, I think you are giving me too much credit for picking up on the "brilliant" thing - those things are very easy to pick up on when you have the message, but much more challenging when you don't. I had the PM, saw the message, but was keeping it close to the vest prior to Raiders spelling it out.

I'll look forward to cockslapping you guys if/when they convert me, but not before that time.

Qwikshot

04-17-2006, 03:27 PM

mckerney

04-17-2006, 03:29 PM

Vote Saldana

Don't think that Barkeep is a thing, would rather go with testing saldana than raiders right now. Realize I'm moving it to a tie, but there's plenty of time left and I'll leave it up to others to break the tie, hopefully in favor of saldana being tested.

hoopsguy

04-17-2006, 03:42 PM

Nah, not pissed at all. Just don't think that A = B in Dubbs stated goal and vote. But I recognize that everyone will interpret the 300 or so posts of information in a way that makes sense to them. And the penalty for accumulating votes isn't as harsh here as it normally is.

BTW, who is the dude in the pic?

I'll follow mckerney on his vote, since it doesn't look like my other candidate (Coffee Warlord) is generating much discussion up to this point.

VOTE SALDANA

Coffee Warlord

04-17-2006, 04:11 PM

Unvote RA

Coffee Warlord

04-17-2006, 04:13 PM

Something feels wrong here. I know I said I was pretty sure hoops was okay, but something seems wrong.

Vote Hoops

hoopsguy

04-17-2006, 04:29 PM

Coffee, what seems wrong? That I thought your vote for Raiders made no sense? I've been trying to give you the benefit of the doubt on it, even going as far as to vote for the other guy who voted for him instead.

Updated votes, as of Post #388:
Raiders - Saldana (332)
JeeberD - Path (380)
Dubb - JeeberD (261)
Barkeep - Blade (282), Cronin (343), Anxiety (378)
Saldana - Barkeep (331), Raiders (375), mckerney (385), Hoopsguy (386)
Hoopsguy - Dubb (382), Coffee (388)

st.cronin

04-17-2006, 04:32 PM

I still don't really have my head around this game. There are too many possibilities for special roles, plus something occured to me today that will probably make it next to impossible for the Things to lose (unless Schmidty thought of it as well, and inserted a balance).

Qwikshot

04-17-2006, 04:34 PM

BTW, who is the dude in the pic?

The dude in the pic is Kurt Russel, star of "The Thing".

Barkeep49

04-17-2006, 04:35 PM

Coffee Warlord

04-17-2006, 04:45 PM

Coffee, what seems wrong? That I thought your vote for Raiders made no sense? I've been trying to give you the benefit of the doubt on it, even going as far as to vote for the other guy who voted for him instead.

I had good vibes from you to begin with, you said it scared you and made you worry about me more than anything. Which, to me, makes no sense. You are casting a lot of suspicion on someone I KNOW is kosher (me), for no particular reason. Some of your posts are just a wee bit out of character (I could be out of my mind on that last one, I acknowledge.)

Raiders Army

04-17-2006, 04:45 PM

Oops someone is pissed

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i107/qwikshot1975/thething.jpg
That's awesome. Had I not seen the movie this weekend, I wouldn't have gotten it.

Barkeep49

04-17-2006, 04:48 PM

I had good vibes from you to begin with, you said it scared you and made you worry about me more than anything. Which, to me, makes no sense. You are casting a lot of suspicion on someone I KNOW is kosher (me), for no particular reason. Some of your posts are just a wee bit out of character (I could be out of my mind on that last one, I acknowledge.)
So last game when I pegged Hoops early on as a baddie I felt that there was an employment of his be useful without being useful tactic. I just don't see it here. What strikes you as different in his gameplay?

Raiders Army

04-17-2006, 04:50 PM

I had good vibes from you to begin with, you said it scared you and made you worry about me more than anything. Which, to me, makes no sense. You are casting a lot of suspicion on someone I KNOW is kosher (me), for no particular reason. Some of your posts are just a wee bit out of character (I could be out of my mind on that last one, I acknowledge.)
I didn't see him casting suspicion on you any more than anyone else, FWIW.

Coffee Warlord

04-17-2006, 04:54 PM

Shrug. Gut feeling that I'm not going to vehemently support, because, as I said, I've got scant little to go on. Looking like my vote is going to be harmless today anyway. Die is cast to saldana.

Raiders Army

04-17-2006, 04:57 PM

interesting, i always enjoy watching who the first person to put a second vote on someone is, especially iirc, you are usually one to avoid having your vote be significant on day one.
Just wondering, but weren't you the first person to put a second vote on someone?

Raiders Army

04-17-2006, 05:00 PM

Just wondering, but weren't you the first person to put a second vote on someone?
Ooops. It was Jeebs who put a second vote on dubb after st. cronin. Nevermind.

hoopsguy

04-17-2006, 05:00 PM

Coffee, just to give you an example from this game on why I worry when people seem to sympathize with me early in werewolf games:

Post #190 - I ask Qwikshot to move his vote off of me because of the "brilliant" thing. He falls in line, is dead the next day as an apparent Thing (per Barkeep). This is after a complimentary out-of-game comment in Post #179.

Basically, I try to go into every game equally suspicious of everyone. If I have done something to earn trust, I hope to get it. If I haven't done something to really distinguish myself, I worry if trust seems too easily given. I know that Blade has commented on this in the past after feeling like he was maneuvered by wolves in past games.

It is in this sick and twisted way of thinking that I trust Dubb more when he is questioning me this game than I trust people who are nodding their head at my statements.

Now in terms of harping on your Raiders vote, I already had you on my semi-short list on Day 1. I had already started noting the "brilliant" stuff, as well as other comments from people that seemed to dovetail with my PM. I didn't have that info on you. This isn't damning, but it does put you on my list of players who are more scrutinized.

Beyond that, I start to put together what I consider a "relative threat" level of the players, with the intent to work harder on analyzing the guys I consider the biggest threats. So going into Day 2 I was already going to look at you. You then come out of the gates voting for someone that made very little sense to me. I asked you directly about it; you answered it. I shelved my concerns at the time when I heard that votes weren't going to take place this weekend.

Today I bring it back up because there was not much conversation at all. However, it doesn't seem like my concern resonated with the rest of the board. At that point, I'm pretty inclined to back-burner the issue. So I voted with the other guy who I consider equally suspicious.

The one thing that concerns me about voting Saldana instead of you (not that those are the only two choices, just the two I've spent the most time considering) is that if Saldana was a Thing why would he go after Raiders in such a direct fashion? I don't think that the Things are looking to draw attention; they have enough to worry about with no lynchings ever taking place. Their best bet is to survive and advance with conversions and night kills. I think Saldana is an experienced enough player to know this, although I've certainly applied the "he couldn't be dumb enough to do this" logic before and been burned by my analysis.

st.cronin

04-17-2006, 05:04 PM

I have a hypothesis, but it requires us to test Barkeep. His behavior has been pretty odd. I encourage those of you who don't feel solid to change their vote to BK.

hoopsguy

04-17-2006, 05:47 PM

Cronin, care to share a little more on the hypothesis?

I think the risk/reward ratio on voting for Barkeep to be tested today is pretty good, but if he is telling the truth (and I believe he is) then we are basically forfeiting our chances to get a Thing today.

Lets say that we started with two things, and that they do get to convert every day:

Night 0: 14-2 ratio
Day 1: test JeeberD, revealed scientist (14-2)
Night 1: Barkeep kills Thing, Things convert (13-2)
Day 2: test Barkeep, revealed scientist (13-2)
Night 2: Things convert again (12-3)

POSITIVES:
At that point we are in better shape than we were if Barkeep didn't kill a Thing, plus we have knowledge about two people starting as scientists. Heck, more when you take the "brilliant" thing into play as original scientists.

NEGATIVES:
We are basically forfeiting our chance to be up 13-1 or win the game outright at the end of today's action.

st.cronin

04-17-2006, 05:50 PM

Would rather not say more just yet, but I think there is more to his role than you suppose.

Blade6119

04-17-2006, 05:53 PM

im happy with saldana or barkeep, but would prefer barkeep

hoopsguy

04-17-2006, 05:58 PM

"Barkeep as a Thing" scenario (using same numbers from above):

Night 0: 14-2 ratio
Day 1: test JeeberD, revealed scientist (14-2)
Night 1: Things kill Qwikshot, no conversion (13-2)
Day 2: test someone besides Barkeep who is revealed as scientist (13-2)
Night 2: Things convert for first time (12-3)

We are in the same place going this route as if we test Barkeep, except we don't have the information if he was telling the truth about killing a Thing on Night 1.

But, why would Barkeep make this play? There doesn't seem to be much reason for him to fake a role reveal from the outset of the game, particularly if it seems like a role that might actually be assigned to another player in the game. I don't think that he has bought himself all kinds of clearance through this play. Would he put himself in the limelight like this as a Thing? Put yourself in the position of playing as a "Thing" - under what circumstances would you make a play like this on Day 1?

I can only see it if they start with 3+ players and get to convert every night. Perhaps by being a lightning rod for conversation early he buys time and possibly flushes out a role reveal while the Things mount silent conversions every night. But I don't think Schmidty would set the game up with those parameters.

Barkeep49

04-17-2006, 05:58 PM

Would rather not say more just yet, but I think there is more to his role than you suppose.
I hope you're not talking about me because I'm nothing but a crotchlicking motherfucking killer.

Barkeep49

04-17-2006, 05:59 PM

And with that I'm out until after the test. Good luck all.

saldana

04-17-2006, 06:03 PM

The one thing that concerns me about voting Saldana instead of you (not that those are the only two choices, just the two I've spent the most time considering) is that if Saldana was a Thing why would he go after Raiders in such a direct fashion?
only have a second to check in while i am at work, but i wanted to comment on this...i can understand the people that think i went strong at raiders and why that draws suspicion on me.. the only answer i have for that is that i, like others in the past, and probably others in this game, forgot that i didnt die when i get the most votes. if you put my reaction into typical werewolf game perspective, instead of in the testing perspective, i think my reaction is totally normal...no one wants to die on day one....put that in comparison to my attitude today, and it is totally different, or indifferent if you would like, because i realized that getting the most votes is not necessarily a bad thing ( it could be bad if the things are using the "convert whoever is tested" plan)

as far as my vote for the day, i know absolutely nothing about this theme, so if cronin has some kind of theory that will help us with the barkeep issue, i will

unvote raiders
vote barkeep

Raiders Army

04-17-2006, 06:13 PM

I'm gone until the deadline. Either way, someone will either check out or die as a Thing. One is a very good thing, the other is good, but a temporary goodness.

st.cronin

04-17-2006, 06:14 PM

I'm out for the night. My vote stays on Barkeep. I urge others to vote for him - it's a win-win, whereas if we test somebody else and get nothing, we're nowhere.

Plus I think stuff will happen tonight or tomorrow that will make whatever we learn from testing BK quite valuable.

JeeberD

04-17-2006, 06:15 PM

I skimmed over the thread pretty quickly, but did we ever figure out why barkeep thinks that Qwik was a Thing?

I'm about to go to the gym and I'm not sure if I'll be back before the vote is final. So unless I hear something good before I take off, I'm leaving my vote on dubb...

hoopsguy

04-17-2006, 06:19 PM

I'll be around up until the deadline and won't leave my vote on Saldana if it is going to result in a tie (no testing at all).

That said, I would like to go for a win today instead of just validating that Barkeep is human.

hoopsguy

04-17-2006, 06:20 PM

did we ever figure out why barkeep thinks that Qwik was a Thing?

He answered this in Post #317.

JeeberD

04-17-2006, 06:23 PM

Thanks, hoops. I really don't like his explanation, though...

saldana

04-17-2006, 07:00 PM

all i can say at this point is what i have already said several times, i am a scientist, not a thing...voting for me wont help us get the things, however, i think we should examine cronin's posts...if he is saying a test of barkeep may have further benefits other than clearing him, assuming he is a good guy, that is a bigger benefit than testing me and having me cleared for 12 hours.

thats all i got.

saldana

04-17-2006, 07:02 PM

dola, anyone got a vote count?

hoopsguy

04-17-2006, 07:09 PM

Here is what I have - would love if someone would double-check it ...

JeeberD - Path (380)
Dubb - JeeberD (261)
Barkeep - Blade (282), Cronin (343), Anxiety (378), Saldana (408)
Saldana - Barkeep (331), Raiders (375), mckerney (385), Hoopsguy (386)
Hoopsguy - Dubb (382), Coffee (388)

Not voted: Swaggs, Tanglewood, WVUFan

path12

04-17-2006, 07:17 PM

So ties mean no test and are therefore something to be avoided. I'm not sold on Barkeep being bad yet just because his role is so out of character and my understanding (from others, I haven't seen the movie) is that his likely character is one of the good guys. So:

UNVOTE JEEBER
VOTE SALDANA

Kind of funny to have a game where you're not stressed about being voted. Though that might just be the medication.

hoopsguy

04-17-2006, 07:55 PM

Boy, I really have not figured out the ebb-and-flow of this game. Figured we would have some people around near the end to generate some conversation.

I can flip votes to Barkeep and change this result, but I believe him and I suspect Saldana. Saldana, any last words before testing here?

hoopsguy

04-17-2006, 07:55 PM

Tanglewood - any comments?

hoopsguy

04-17-2006, 08:00 PM

Off to see 24, hope that results are posted in an hour and that we have one more vote as part of this day.

Swaggs

04-17-2006, 08:16 PM

Crap... sorry I missed the vote.

Long day. :(

dubb93

04-17-2006, 08:33 PM

So no testing tonight?

dubb93

04-17-2006, 08:33 PM

So no testing tonight?

dubb93

04-17-2006, 08:34 PM

Nothing but trouble with this damn board recently.

Schmidty

04-17-2006, 08:41 PM

After the death of Qwikshot, everyone's nerves are frayed beyond belief. The challenges, denials, and arguments fly.

It is finally decided that saldana will be the target of the test. You all get up from the table and give saldana some room. For what seems like forever, saldana just sits and stares at the razor without moving. Everyone begins to get tense. Finally, the tension breaks into anger, and several of you move in on saldana. Two of you grab his arm and hold it down, but it is apparant that he is giving no signs of struggle. One of you grabs the razor, and without hesitation, slices into saldana's thumb. No sooner than the razor tears the skin, saldana explodes from his chair, throwing those of you nearest to him across the room. His mouth widens to freakish proportions and some type of disgusting appendage shoots from it toward the center of your group, but it never reaches you as a plume of flame engulfs him and tosses him to the floor. It seems that someone has fashioned a makeshift flame-thrower out of the blowtorch.

Writhing in agony, saldana slowing burns to ashes before your eyes.

You have tested and killed a Thing, and may now vote for another person to be tested before the day is over.

tanglewood

04-17-2006, 08:42 PM

Well, I would think it useful to test Barkeep and see if he is being straight with us, but as I suspect that he is and his weird acting is some special role (I haven't seen the movie but suspect that Barkeep is playing one of the characters in it. Can anyone confim?) and therefore would rather test somone that I think could be a Thing.

Regarding the whole brilliant thing again, I am very weary of how it has been presented so far by/surrounding one player in particular: Hoopsguy. This is farily long, but I am trying to be exhaustive in proving my point, no matter how minor it may seem to some, and want to get a consensus on exactly who was cleared by the PM business on day one and why.

Guys that said brilliant in their posts that I believe has cleared them on Day 1
Swaggs - post #107 (slips brilliant into conversation in a deliberate way, would only be picked up on if you got brilliant in PM)
Blade - post #110 (as above, only more explicit as it is openly self referential)
Raiders Army - post #123 (explicit quotation of part of the PM)

RA says he thinks Blade is on his side because of his brilliance in #174, essentially bringing the whole brilliance in PMs issue into the open. From this point on anyone who uses brilliant could easily be a thing, it is from post #174 useless.

Then, in post #183 Dubb confirms that he also got 'simple but brilliant' in his PM. He was the first to confirm this part, so he is cleared. However, as with 'brilliant', as soon as it is openly confirmed it is now obsolete so cannot be used to cofirm anyone beyond post #183.

So, the main point of this post: why are we (or at least some of us) clearing Hoopsguy along with them? Here is Hoops' first, and therefore most important, reference to brilliant:

Raiders, if we are coming out with the "brilliant" bit then you actually missed someone who said it - Swaggs.

The first time Hoops mentions brilliant is after three players have already hid it in their posts, which, as I said in my previous post RE: this whole brilliant buisness, an experienced wolf/thing could easily pick up on and imitate. All he mentions is the single word with no reference to "simple, but brilliant", the explicit quote, even though that is what Raider's used in his post so had already been out in the open. Dubb was the first to confirm 'simple but brilliant', and did so after Hoops' post here. Additionally, (although not necessarily to Hoops' inditement) The phrasing "'brilliant' bit" is very vague. Hoops' could argue that he was trying to 'protect' the exact PM wording and keep it useful, but it was already out in the open. If he had used it here, he would have been the one to at one make 'simple but...' obsolete but simultaneously clear himself, unlike Dubb who did so. It would have not changed our situation at all, perhaps have even been beneficial.

His post continues thusly, the self-quotation he makes I have underlined:

I had seen this when I posted in #143 but didn't want to bring this out.

but I don't have any good "reads" at this point (at least on who might be a "thing).

If you read between the lines, you can construe that I had some reads on who might be a scientist and it was because of the use of the word brilliant, which was found in my scientist description.

To me, this could well be some good wolfish bullshitting. Hoops has laid these types of false 'textual clues' before to great effect when a bad guy, notably the Star Wars game, where an ambiguos sentence of two can then be twisted post-facto to appear as a reference to something which the bad guy has only become aware of recently.

Therefore, I do not see any reason that Hoops was part of the brilliant group, so he is not one of the confirmed clear on Day one and should not get the special protection afforded the others (Swaggs, Blade, RA and Dubb).

I am by no means accusing Hoops of being a thing, only that it is not a 100% lock he wasn't a thing on day one, as some seem to have suggested by including him in the 'brilliant' group.

Therefore, I am not accusing Hoops but am not writing him out of possibilties either. Due to my strong hunch that Barkeep is good, and agreeing partly with RA's logic of going for Saldana (but only in a 'well, it's as good as any other reason at this point' kind of way), especially since he was 100% guarenteed clean when he made the accusation, I will:

Vote Saldana

Coffee Warlord

04-17-2006, 08:42 PM

Well then.

Schmidty

04-17-2006, 08:44 PM

Day 1 is being extended until 9 p.m. EST tomorrow, or until everyone votes.

tanglewood

04-17-2006, 08:47 PM

Tanglewood - any comments?

1. WOO HOO WE GOT A THING!

2. DAMN I THOUGHT THE DEADLINE WAS 3AM GMT AGAIN!!!!

Well, as you can see from my post it was horrendously long and I spent ages writing it especialy considering time hunting for posts etc. and chekcing numbers. It took me at least half an hour to write, so I essentially made up my mind to vote Saldana before I knew the result.

I am truly very sorry I missed the vote, especially sinc ethis is not the first time it has happened due to not doing the timezone conversion correctly (it doesn't help that some games are CST and some EST, but nevermind...). The whole living in the UK thing has caused a lot of difficulty with my participation in WW on this board in the past both with regard to participation and missing vote deadlines. However, I really hope you can all bear patience with me at times as I really enjoy playing the WW games here.

Schmidty

04-17-2006, 08:47 PM

Another note: I am going to start using actual names in my write-ups to add more flavor (and mak it easier for me), but note that it is just that: Flavor.

tanglewood

04-17-2006, 08:49 PM

Dola

I guess that Hoopsguy voting for Saldana also invalidates my whole 'don't clear Hoops just yet' post too. Great success that was then...

dubb93

04-17-2006, 08:51 PM

VOTE HOOPSGUY

dubb93

04-17-2006, 08:53 PM

Dola

I guess that Hoopsguy voting for Saldana also invalidates my whole 'don't clear Hoops just yet' post too. Great success that was then...

He can be devious. I wouldn't put it past him, just like I wouldn't be suprised it both Hoops and Barkeep are things. They seem to be protecting each other quite well while trying to dictate the flow of the game.

Barkeep49

04-17-2006, 08:55 PM

And that is why you go for the fucking victory my friends. Go for the fucking victory. Job well done, well done indeed. I just want to point out that I'm 2 for fucking 2 in this game at finding the shitbags we call Things. I have no further suspect at this time, as I feel it's likely a convert so I don't fucking know where to go. I think, however, it would be instructive to either:
*Test me to confirm once and fucking all that Qwik was a bad guy. I mean I went hard after saldana who proved to be one, but maybe some of you still think I'm just a douchebag.
*Go for Jeeber. He seems a likely convert target having been cleared and all yesterday.

But really I'm of open mind now.

Barkeep49

04-17-2006, 08:56 PM

He can be devious. I wouldn't put it past him, just like I wouldn't be suprised it both Hoops and Barkeep are things. They seem to be protecting each other quite well while trying to dictate the flow of the game.
Give me a fucking break. If Schmidty had 3 things to start, as you're suggesting, we're more fucked then a giggilo introduced to a tribe of Amazons.

Barkeep49

04-17-2006, 08:57 PM

Dola -- So one of us, but not both, can be a Thing. Really my actions today should clear me for today. I went fucking hard after a Thing. What else would you like?

saldana

04-17-2006, 08:59 PM

you bastages....my disgusting appendage almost had one of you bastages....go things!!!!

dubb93

04-17-2006, 09:01 PM

Give me a fucking break. If Schmidty had 3 things to start, as you're suggesting, we're more fucked then a giggilo introduced to a tribe of Amazons.

Was qwik not a thing now?

tanglewood

04-17-2006, 09:03 PM

Was qwik not a thing now?

Start: 2 Things
Night 1: 1 killed (Quik), 1 convert = 2 things
Day 2: 1 lynched = 1 thing

Barkeep49

04-17-2006, 09:04 PM

No Qwik was a thing. 3 things to start according to your lame theory:

1. Qwik

And then 2 from the grouping of
Barkeep
Hoops
Saldana

with the remaining being a convert. That's 3 fuckers to start plus 1 convert. Give me a break. You should know better. So you've floated you're theory and it's crap. I'm all for testing me, but the idea that I'm protecting Hoops because we're both things is something that just isn't plausible on Day 2. I fucking led the charge on a Thing. If you want test me and I'll prove innocent so you know that Qwik was a thing. But more then that I want to know what I could fucking do to prove to you that I am just a man trying to destroy evil.

dubb93

04-17-2006, 09:07 PM

Barkeep49

04-17-2006, 09:09 PM

EEEHHHHH....I'm still not convinced.
Why not. Let's give some reasons. You can do better.

Screw testing Jeeber, I think it's time I followed his vote.

Vote Dubb

Why play it safe when we can nail a possible cuntrag in Dubb?

hoopsguy

04-17-2006, 09:24 PM

So just want to make sure that I'm clear on the argument that I'm a Thing - I voted for Saldana to make the vote 4-3, then didn't change the vote to Barkeep at the end and make the score 5-4 to keep him alive another day and convert another scientist?

Do you really suspect that both Barkeep and I are things? That is the only way that scenario makes any sense to me.

I think that a Thing could afford to be devious if they had not lost one of their members on Day 1. But no way would they play that way and risk losing players the first two days. The people who voted for Saldana, particularly those who were around late (that includes me) vault way up my trust list.

Trusted:
Barkeep (directly related to killing of two Things)
Path (tie-breaking vote to kill a Thing)

Mostly Trusted:
Mckerney (3rd vote on Saldana)
Raiders (Scientist Day 1, voted for Thing on Day 2, posted relatively late and didn't move away from Thing in 5-4 vote)
Cronin (targeted by Thing yesterday)

Somewhat Trusted
Dubb
Swaggs
Blade - all three among simple/brilliant group from Day 1, at most one has been converted
JeeberD - cleared on day one, at most one has been converted among 4 on this somewhat trusted list
Tanglewood - post-deadline vote for Saldana didn't impact the vote, but at least gives some surface area to review. Initial vibe = not Thing

Remaining Players
Anxiety
Coffee
WVUFan

hoopsguy

04-17-2006, 09:27 PM

Judging by the reaction from Saldana on Day 1, I believe he was an original Thing and not a convert.

If there was a conversion last night, we are hunting for the convert.

If there was no conversion last night, then they started out with three Things (potentially with Barkeep playing a very dangerous game as a Thing).

I'll be looking at the "Somewhat Trusted" and "Remaining Players" lists that I published for my vote.

Barkeep49

04-17-2006, 09:29 PM

Since it worked well before let's look at dubb's posts

Dubb
95 -- Asks to be tested
96 -- Realizes only 1 test a day so thinks we shouldn't test him
100 -- Throws out first overall vote for saldana
111 -- Finds out that vote for saldana doesn't count
120 -- Attempts to vote for saldana
121 -- Really votes for saldana
183 --
Actually I think this hurts you a little in my book Hoopsguy. If you don't quite get the "brilliant" blurb, that leads me to believe you didn't get a simliar PM to what some of the rest of us got. It refers to us as simple, but brilliant . I didn't want to bring that up, but since it is already out in the open I see no problem with it.

What you quoted has nothing to do with that.
191 -- Reminds us all what a bitch it is to edit versus write
198 -- Finds my post stating that I am going to kill someone funny and wonders what everyone else is supposed to do
201 -- Tells me that I'm the man
220 -- Wonders if I'm in the game
223 -- Thanks Schmidty for confirming I'm in the game
254 -- Votes for JeeberD
271 -- Says it's a wasted vote to go after him. Jeebs is more likely convert.
280 -- Hates tornados (I am not making that up, I promise)
281 -- Tells us about the bad storm
382 -- Wants to get an original thing and thinks hoops is it
423 -- Wonders about testing today
424 -- Has the exact same wonder about testing today
425 -- Calls the board "Nothing but trouble"
433 -- Votes for hoopsguy with no explanation
439 -- Asks if I still am saying Qwik was a thing
442 -- Is not convinced by my logic

Abe Sargent

04-17-2006, 09:33 PM

Regarding the whole brilliant thing again, I am very weary of how it has been presented so far by/surrounding one player in particular: Hoopsguy. This is farily long, but I am trying to be exhaustive in proving my point, no matter how minor it may seem to some, and want to get a consensus on exactly who was cleared by the PM business on day one and why.

I am tired of people continuing to talk about stuff that the GM specifically not to talk about when he said, "THERE WILL BE NO MORE DISCUSSION OF PMs IN ANY FORM IN THIS GAME." This is discussion of a form. Maybe you are violating the GM rule because you are trying to throw a monkey wrench into people's thinking and you know that other real scientists can't challenge you without violating the GM's rule.

Vote Tanglewood

-Anxiety

Barkeep49

04-17-2006, 09:34 PM

I agree with the idea, based on posts, after my quick review just now, that saldana was an original Thing, henceforth to always be referred to by me as Shitface.

I believe based on the nature of the game we only had 2 shitfaces to start. I honestly believe we got them both.

I also think that it's pretty clear dubb was not a shitface to start. So I'll try and forgive his inability to look at things logically and ask myself "Did he act like he was converted today" and the fact is we just don't fucking now. He's been pretty consistent with his suspsicion of hoops and so I guess it kind of sort of makes sense that he would be suspicious of me. I put him on my cleared list which he doesn't like. At this point I think Dubb is either a converted thing or suffering from tunnel vision. I can't decide which but don't feel comfortable with my vote on him.

Unvote Dubb

It could easly go back, but I think there might be better pickings out there.

Barkeep49

04-17-2006, 09:36 PM

I am tired of people continuing to talk about stuff that the GM specifically not to talk about when he said, "THERE WILL BE NO MORE DISCUSSION OF PMs IN ANY FORM IN THIS GAME." This is discussion of a form. Maybe you are violating the GM rule because you are trying to throw a monkey wrench into people's thinking and you know that other real scientists can't challenge you without violating the GM's rule.

Vote Tanglewood

-Anxiety
Schmidty can you clarify what you meant by your post? Anxiety has been looking at it in a pretty literal way, which makes sense, while many of us have taken it more to mean "Don't discuss anything new about PMs." Could you clarify what you want?

hoopsguy

04-17-2006, 09:39 PM

The only posts of Dubb's that I would look at in terms of "Thing" are the ones from Day 2. I believe that Post #183 is pretty compelling for him being a scientist initially.

Without knowing for sure that there was a conversion on Night 1 (possible three Things) I'm not convinced that going after someone who was a scientist on Day 1 is the direction I want to go.

I think that Things either had two to start, with relatively unchecked conversions or three to start and were forced to make decisions on when to use a limited supply. After not getting caught in the vote on Day 1 I think it is entirely possible they banked one. But then they lost a Thing on Night 1 and another one on Day 2.

If we don't catch a Thing on this next vote I'm sure they would convert. We should be able to learn from Schmidty's Night 2 results post ... if it spells out that there was a conversion then we can make the intellectual leap that none transpired on Night 1.

Barkeep49

04-17-2006, 09:41 PM

Hoops I agree with all of what you just said. So where is that leading you for our current vote?

Barkeep49

04-17-2006, 09:42 PM

I still think 2 starters with generous conversions with a few blesseds out there is the likely way of the world.

hoopsguy

04-17-2006, 09:46 PM

I think that I start with the "Remaining Players" list - Anxiety, Coffee Warlord, and WVUFan.

The other option would be to vote for you to clear you initially and validate that you were a human Day 1 and did kill a Thing on Night 1. But I want to play for the win tonight and I believe what you have posted. So while I understand the appeal of going that way I don't think I'll cast my vote in that direction.

I'm hoping for a little more conversation in the thread before voting but may not have that luxury with a 9AM deadline ...

Barkeep49

04-17-2006, 09:48 PM

It's a 9 PM or sooner deadline.

Barkeep49

04-17-2006, 09:49 PM

Hoops:

Does starting there make sense if it's equally as likely that there was a conversion as there is that there were 3 starting Things? I don't quite think it does.

Barkeep49

04-17-2006, 09:51 PM

Also the more I think about it, the more your vote does NOT clear you. I know you've thrown your fellow wolves under the bus before in a dire situation, in the Treasure Hunt game. So voting for a fellow wolf on a close vote is a weapon in your arsenal. I still think you're innocent for the time being, but I think it's worth pointing out for others.

Schmidty

04-17-2006, 09:54 PM

Schmidty can you clarify what you meant by your post? Anxiety has been looking at it in a pretty literal way, which makes sense, while many of us have taken it more to mean "Don't discuss anything new about PMs." Could you clarify what you want?

What's out there is out there. I won't comment on specifics until after the game.

I asked people to stop discussing PMs. Period. I thought it was quite obvious. I didn't say future and I didn't say past, I said PM FROM ME.

Barkeep49

04-17-2006, 09:55 PM

Thanks for the clarification of the obvious.

saldana

04-17-2006, 09:57 PM

i hope this game lasts a while, just so i can keep reading Barkeep's rants. he's freakin hilarious...is there actually a character in the movie that acts like that?

hoopsguy

04-17-2006, 09:57 PM

Well, it kind of plays into the same logic that I used for the "original Thing" play with today's vote.

1.) Possible there was no conversion
2.) If there was a conversion, it is possible that it wasn't one of the 5 on the "Somewhat Trusted" list. Doubtful, but possible
3.) If we are hunting one remaining Thing either way, the 1 in 3 are the best odds
4.) If I was playing as a Thing, I would probably have converted a lower profile guy and let the more frequent posters finger-point at each other while swelling my numbers. Plus there is a better chance to hit a special role (for better or worse) in the "Remaining Players" group than with the ordinary scientists. We don't know if there are seer/bodyguard roles out there but this is a werewolf game so there are likely some ... you know me, I like to play high risk/high reward as a wolf but I definitely know that isn't how everyone approaches that role.

I'm happy that we have a full 24 hours to work through this.

hoopsguy

04-17-2006, 10:01 PM

As far as being willing to ship a fellow "wolf" off to his death - yep, I'll do it if I feel like I'm boxed and and think it advances the cause. Just as I would be willing to take the noose to help out the rest of the team.

But in this case I would have just moved the vote to you (or not voted for him in the first place at a point when the outcome was clearly in doubt) to end the day cycle and look for a night conversion. If there is only one wolf left they may not get to a night cycle for their conversion.

Barkeep49

04-17-2006, 10:12 PM

To play the Devil's Advocate:
You're a Shitface
The day starts to shape up and it's going to be me or saldana. If I'm tested everyone still knows I'm clear and you're not clean.
You know I'm a fucking hero and if I am tested everyone will know that I wasn't promising them pussy and giving them cock when I was talking about Qwik. And it still might be saldana tomorrow.
If saldana is tested and you were there on a close vote you are suddenly cleared temporarily. You can then convert someone, who will also be thought of as cleared temporarily, and suddenly you've got the Shitfaces back in a better position then titties at the Bada Bing.

Blade6119

04-17-2006, 10:13 PM

VOTE RAIDERS ARMY

Barkeep49

04-17-2006, 10:17 PM

VOTE RAIDERS ARMY
Well a cousin-lusting dispshit could see the logic behind the vote you just cast Blade. Sadly I'm not that kind of sicko, so maybe you could tell me why you're voting for Raiders at this point. I mean the guy did sort of put saldana under the initial pressure that caused him to crack.

Blade6119

04-17-2006, 10:20 PM

Well a cousin-lusting dispshit could see the logic behind the vote you just cast Blade. Sadly I'm not that kind of sicko, so maybe you could tell me why you're voting for Raiders at this point. I mean the guy did sort of put saldana under the initial pressure that caused him to crack.
Kind of like the big fight/accusations that occured between hoops and i during the treasure hunter game? Where he tried to damn me, i tried to damn him, and we were both bad. I died, came up bad, and hoops went on to victory?

That kind of pressure?

Blade6119

04-17-2006, 10:22 PM

dola, he was one of the cleared, he was the one most against saldana, and hes a vet...all 3 would be great criteria for a convert if saldana was an original...do you not think so?

dubb93

04-17-2006, 10:31 PM

dola, he was one of the cleared, he was the one most against saldana, and hes a vet...all 3 would be great criteria for a convert if saldana was an original...do you not think so?

We haven't converted since Saldana just died.

Blade6119

04-17-2006, 10:32 PM

We haven't converted since Saldana just died.
Im talking night one...everyone assumes he was an original thing, and if so then converting raiders night one makes sense to me

tanglewood

04-17-2006, 10:32 PM

Just some quick thougts before I go to bed.

I would definitley like to test Barkeep at somepoint, just because he is acting so goddamn strange. I think he is good, but would like have it confirmed. However, I do not think now is the best time to do so, perhaps tommorrow or the day after.

I think hoops is clear until this evening. If he did throw saldana under the train then he's either got balls of steel or an acorn for a brain (possibly both). I just do not see it as very likely.

I think today's second vote should go on someone who hasn't said much as of yet as they strike me as the likely type for converstions. Possibly Mckerny or penywise. This is not final, just some musings.

dubb93

04-17-2006, 10:35 PM

Im talking night one...everyone assumes he was an original thing, and if so then converting raiders night one makes sense to me

Ahhh...I see.

Blade6119

04-17-2006, 10:39 PM

Ahhh...I see.
Back in X-com WW, i was the alien leader...day one hoops(my first game) was on to me, so we had neon chaos convert him. Second day i got voted and went down as a bad guy, but the team used hoopsguy to come soo close to a a victory except for that backstabbing fouts...i hate fouts...hes sooo stupid....what was i talking about? Oh, ok...well, that game is just what could be happening here...id say its raiders or a quiet player, but who knows

JeeberD

04-17-2006, 10:39 PM

I gotta agree with much tangle's thoughts. Barkeep needs to be tested sooner or later, though his track record is looking really good right now. And I'm also thinking that a quieter person would be a good candidate to have been converted.

Coffee Warlord

04-17-2006, 10:59 PM

Despite the fact I am on it, I'm going to resume my trust of hoops, and go with his list for Vote 2. The winner? WVUFan. He almost ALWAYS successfully comes in under the radar, and would be a smart case for the first conversion.

Vote WVUFan

mckerney

04-18-2006, 02:24 AM

Vote Dubb

Blade6119

04-18-2006, 03:45 AM

So anyone around tonight for a discussion? Hoops, BK? Dubb is usually on in like 2 hours...im bored, and i want to get back into my talkative groove...ive been wayyy to quiet

Fouts

04-18-2006, 04:04 AM

Back in X-com WW, i was the alien leader...day one hoops(my first game) was on to me, so we had neon chaos convert him. Second day i got voted and went down as a bad guy, but the team used hoopsguy to come soo close to a a victory except for that backstabbing fouts...i hate fouts...hes sooo stupid....what was i talking about? Oh, ok...well, that game is just what could be happening here...id say its raiders or a quiet player, but who knows

"Every baller on the streets is searchin' fortune and fame
Some come up, some get done up, except the twist
If you out for mega cheddar, you got to go high risk
Don't hate the player, hate the game"

:)

Raiders Army

04-18-2006, 05:09 AM

Mostly Trusted:
Mckerney (3rd vote on Saldana)
Raiders (Scientist Day 1, voted for Thing on Day 2, posted relatively late and didn't move away from Thing in 5-4 vote)
Cronin (targeted by Thing yesterday)

I voted for saldana both days.

Raiders Army

04-18-2006, 05:11 AM

We haven't converted since Saldana just died.
Who's we?

Raiders Army

04-18-2006, 05:13 AM

i hope this game lasts a while, just so i can keep reading Barkeep's rants. he's freakin hilarious...is there actually a character in the movie that acts like that?
Everyone seems to think he's Childs, but Childs didn't swear that much. He's more like Dr. Blair when he's tearing up the radios with an axe.

hoopsguy

04-18-2006, 05:17 AM

Top of the morning, Raiders.

Early votes are pretty spread out:
Hoopsguy - Dubb (433)
Tanglewood - Anxiety (447)
Raiders - Blade (463)
WVU - Coffee (473)
Dubb - mckerney (474)

Raiders Army

04-18-2006, 05:19 AM

Maybe we should look at this whole thing as a freebie vote. While I'd certainly like to get a Thing, at the very least we'll clear someone. In that respect, I'm not sure that going for an Under the Radar guy will help us as much as going for someone who's more verbose. The counter to that argument is that if we vote for someone who's verbose (Barkeep and hoops look like the logical candidates) then we're probably only sure they're human then and are in the same boat the next voting cycle.

Chances are, we won't get a Thing. I'm all for validating what Barkeep has done so far.

VOTE BARKEEP49

Raiders Army

04-18-2006, 05:21 AM

Hell, I'll switch my vote to me to avoid a tie as well. At least you guys will know I'm on the side of angels. :)

Anyhow, another thing we have to sort of think about is that whomever we test for the 2nd test (if they turn out to be human) has a huge target on their back for conversion. Hopefully the bodyguard role is out there as well.

hoopsguy

04-18-2006, 05:22 AM

I'm leaning towards joining CW on a vote for WVUfan right now. He fits the profile of where I would probably have gone with a Day 1 conversion (historically quiet player, chance to hit a special role while playing from ahead).

But if he does end up being the convert I'll be a little disappointed. To the best of my knowledge, he wasn't in this thread yesterday. I would hope that in a 5-4 vote that a wolf would at least show up and try to impact the game (assuming real life didn't throw a serious curveball).

JeeberD

04-18-2006, 08:28 AM

I'm still disturbed that Barkeep claims that he knows that Qwik was a thing despite there being no other proof that he was. I would think if a Thing was lit on fire it would start to change before it died. Of course, in Schmidty's description we can only see human arms and legs, so other parts of it might have started to change...I dunno. Still, I think that we need to clear Barkeep one way or another...

Vote Barkeep

Barkeep49

04-18-2006, 09:01 AM

Oh let's be clear football fucker: what I saw left it quite clear that Qwik is a Shitface. How I knew to find him as a Shitface? Well that's not something that can be explained at this point, especially after a similar method netted us another Shitface.

path12

04-18-2006, 09:38 AM

Apparently it seems too obvious to everyone else, but sometimes that's the best way to hide.....convert Jeeber after the first test.

VOTE JEEBER

Barkeep49

04-18-2006, 09:40 AM

Let's take an early look at the vote count:

Hoops - Dubb
Tanglewood - Anxiety
Raiders - Blade
WVU - Coffee
Dubb - Mckerney
Barkeep - Raiders, Jeeber
Jeeber - Path

Left to vote: Barkeep, hoops, Blade, cronin, Swaggs, WVU

So far it's looking like a Day 1 vote to me.

Barkeep49

04-18-2006, 09:43 AM

Ok I think it's time we stop adding more people with 1 vote and start to consolodate votes a bit. I really think voting for me is a mistake and a waste of time, but I understand and accept that votes are likely to consolodate on me. Taking a look at the 7 with votes already I would be happy to vote for WVU, Jeeber in my first tier with Dubb and Raiders in my second tier of preference.

JeeberD

04-18-2006, 09:44 AM

I really think voting for me is a mistake and a waste of time

I feel the exact same way, but I know that there's no way that I can prove to you that I'm still clean...

Swaggs

04-18-2006, 09:45 AM

I can't wait to see Barkeep's "job description" when this is over. :)

Barkeep49

04-18-2006, 10:07 AM

I can't wait to see Barkeep's "job description" when this is over. :)
Doesn't look like you're still around but I would love to hear where you're at.

Swaggs

04-18-2006, 10:12 AM

Doesn't look like you're still around but I would love to hear where you're at.

Huh?

Barkeep49

04-18-2006, 10:16 AM

Huh?
Who do you think looks good at the moment? Who are you leaning towards voting for? Any observations or insight is what I mean when I said "where you're at"

Swaggs

04-18-2006, 10:20 AM

ah.. when you said "doesn't look like you aren't around anymore," I thought you meant that I got killed or something. :)

Barkeep49

04-18-2006, 10:21 AM

ah.. when you said "doesn't look like you aren't around anymore," I thought you meant that I got killed or something. :)
Nope I meant that you weren't listed as a Currently Active User Viewing This Thread

So now that we've straightened that out where you at?

Swaggs

04-18-2006, 10:38 AM

For starters, I initially trusted Blade and Raiders because they also appeared to be brilliant (and Raiders has a pretty good voting history), before others realized what that might mean. I also think dubb was initially a simple scientist, like myself. Of course, all four of us become subject to scrutiny after hoopsguy pointed this out.

I also believe that you (Barkeep49) are not a Thing, based both on votes and the night kill.

Since I have no special powers or insight, that leaves me looking at voting patterns and past tests. Right now, I am leaning towards voting for Jeeber. He was cleared early on, but has made some suspicious votes since then. He also makes sense as a conversion target, since he was cleared. If I had to vote right now, it would be for Jeeber.

I am hoping that, as the day goes on, someone a little more specilized might reveal some clues that could help.

dubb93

04-18-2006, 12:16 PM

Who's we?

we would be the game as a whole, but if you seriously feel it was some kind of stupid slip-up, by all means vote me for, but I warn you, it would kind of like voting for the green party candidate in the presidential race. You would be throwing your vote away.

st.cronin

04-18-2006, 12:36 PM

Vote Raider's Army

saldana

04-18-2006, 12:37 PM

being dead on day 2 sucks...now i know how alan t feels every game.

Barkeep49

04-18-2006, 12:42 PM

being dead on day 2 sucks...now i know how alan t feels every game.
I have liked being killed early since it'll give me a chance to recharge my WW batteries. Of course since we had a month to do so, if you hadn't been a baddie I'd feel some sympathy for you.