WW United -- GAME OVER

[Passacaglia]

Think we can get this thing going for a Wednesday morning start? If not, Thursday will work. Rules should come up sometime this morning, unless work gives me the hassles, but the basic gist is that you are all players on a soccer squad.

Okay, here are the rules. This game is designed to play like basic werewolf, with a side game that you can choose your own involvement level in.


You are a player on a soccer squad. The season is about to begin, and this is the year for your team – all the pieces are in place to win the league, most likely to dominate for years to come. Unfortunately, other teams in the league are aware of this, and have put some pretty extreme measures in place to stop you. Their first step was the murder of the squad’s veteran manager, Passacaglia. Without his strong leadership, the squad will surely suffer. And in case that wasn’t enough, some member of the squad have been infected with a strange poison that turns them into werewolves at night! Each night, these werewolves will find an innocent member of the squad and consume their body. Each day, the members of the squad will discuss who the most likely werewolf is, put it to a vote, and whoever has the most votes will be killed. Votes of ‘no lynch’ will be accepted, and a tie vote will result in no lynch.



Private Good Roles:

Locker Room Captain – Will be able to change the outcome of one vote.
Tough Guy – Will be able to prevent one person per night from being consumed by wolves. May not choose the same person two nights in a row.
Wanderer – May follow one player each night, and see if they are a werewolf.
Jealous – If placed on the bench, this player may choose to kill one of the starters and take their position.



Public Good Role:

Manager – I’m accepting volunteers for this position, and will choose randomly from whoever volunteers. Each day, the manager will submit a lineup for the next day. The lineup will consist of:

1 Goalkeeper
2 Center Backs
2 Full Backs
2 Central Midfielders
2 Wingers
2 Strikers
5 Bench players (or less, if there are not enough players)

Anyone not named will not dress for the game.

Players will be able to send private messages to others at the same position as them. The 5 bench players will also be able to send private messages to each other. The Manager and Goalkeeper will be able to send private messages to each other.

Each player has a skill level (a random number from 1 to 100) at each position. The old Manager, Passacaglia, was very good at figuring out who was more skilled at each position, but as a rookie thrown in at the last minute, you’re going to have to figure it out on the fly. At the end of each day, a match report will be posted, showing how good each starter was at the position they played, and the average skill for the bench players.

Win, Lose, or Draw – The skill values of the starters at their position will be added up, plus the average skill scores for the highest three bench players. If the total is higher than 800, the squad wins. If the number is between 600 and 800, it’s a draw. If the number is less than 600, the squad loses. A win earns the squad three points, a draw gets one, and a loss nothing.



Victory Conditions

Squad – The squad can win in two ways. If it eliminates the wolves, it should be able to eventually recover from the ineptness of the new manager and take over the league. Also, if it can achieve ten points before it is destroyed by wolves, it shows that it can still dominate the league despite the wolf problem.

Wolves – The wolves win by obtaining a 1:1 ratio between wolves and non-wolves, while making sure the squad does not achieve ten points. Each night, instead of killing a squad member, they may plant evidence of league violations, which would give the squad a two-point penalty.

[Passacaglia]

1. claphamsa, Lynched Day 4, Wanderer
2. Telle, killed Night 9, Player
3. KWhit, Manager
4. PurdueBrad, surviving Wolf
5. JAG, killed by Wolves Night 8, Player
6. J23, Lynched Day 3, Wolf
7. lerriuqs, killed by Wolves Night 6, Player
8. The Jackal, Lynched Day 5, Wolf
9. DaddyTorgo, killed by wolves Night 4, Player
10. Schmidty, lynched Day 9
11. Lathum, killed by wolves Night 7, Locker Room Captain
12. Chief Rum, killed by wolves Night 2, Tough Guy
13. MartinD, Lynched Day 1, Player
14. Alan T, killed by wolves Night 3, Jealous player
15. GoldenEagle, Lynched by Lathum Day 6, Player
16. Darth Vilus, killed by wolves Night 5, Player
17. Mia Ow, lynched Day 8, Player
18. Danny, killed by Alan T, the Jealous Player, Night 1, Wolf
19. LoneStarGirl, Lynched Day 7, Player

[claphamsa]

center back!

[hoopsguy]

I'm opposed to the pairing of this theme with this thread title.

[claphamsa]

it really should be FCWW

[Passacaglia]

United is not meant to refer to any one particular team, FWIW. WWFC could have worked, I suppose.

[Passacaglia]

center back!

Also FWIW, you will have positions, but you will not get to choose them.

[Abe Sargent]

I don;t even know what this thread is for?

[Telle]

I'll play.

[KWhit]

I'll play.

[PurdueBrad]

I'm in

[JAG]

I'll give it another go.

[Autumn]

Looks like i"m going to be up next to GM, so I'm going to work on getting my rules set and written. So, I'll pass, Pass.

[Passacaglia]

Rules are up. If there are any questions, feel free to ask!

[J23]

I'll give it a go, and choose to believe it was named in honor of a United team not located in Manchester so that I can live with myself.

[claphamsa]

its DC united!

[lerriuqs]

in

[claphamsa]

where did you get the name lerriuqs? I get that its squirrl spelled backwards......

[Passacaglia]

I'll give it a go, and choose to believe it was named in honor of a United team not located in Manchester so that I can live with myself.

No worries -- I just chose a popular name without thinking of any particular team. Though my favorite 'United' is Newcastle, so you're okay on that front.

[lerriuqs]

where did you get the name lerriuqs? I get that its squirrl spelled backwards......

I've just always used it. It's kinda stuck.

[The Jackal]

Sure, I'm in.

[claphamsa]

I've just always used it. It's kinda stuck.
but how did you get it?

[lerriuqs]

but how did you get it?

In younger days, while looking at crazy conspiracy theories I found the one about the squirrels taking over the world. Nobody suspects the squirrel. And nobody suspects them when their name is written backwards...:cool:

[claphamsa]

oh, ok :)

do they fly black helicopters? and are they gonna take away our guns?

[The Jackal]

Squirrels don't need helicopter, they can fly.

[DaddyTorgo]

IN

[Schmidty]

I hate soccer, so I'm out.

[Schmidty]

Just kidding. I like soccer, and I'm in.

[Lathum]

in.

Will probably be a little quiet with my parents coming of Friday to visit.

FWIW I played striker and got accepted to college on a soccer scholarship.

I wlso will not be nominating myself for manager due to availability.

[Chief Rum]

Still room for more?

If so, I am in.

I will volunteer for Manager. Sounds like fun.

If not, I'll take whatever position, to fit in with the holes left after other preferences. Given a preference in leftover roles, I'll take winger, midfield, fullback, in that order, or of course, I'll be on the bench.

[Passacaglia]

Still room for more?

If so, I am in.

I will volunteer for Manager. Sounds like fun.

If not, I'll take whatever position, to fit in with the holes left after other preferences. Given a preference in leftover roles, I'll take winger, midfield, fullback, in that order, or of course, I'll be on the bench.

Definitely room for more -- there's no limit.

Also, if you're a player, you won't really have a permanent position -- it'll be up to the manager to decide where you're going to play each day.

[Passacaglia]

Oh, and glad we have at least one volunteer for Manager -- other people can still volunteer, and I'll choose randomly from all those who volunteer.

[Lathum]

apparently the west coasters all roll out of bed around the same time :)

[MartinD]

I would like to play.

[Alan T]

I'll play

[GoldenEagle]

I am in.

I would like to be the prima dona player. You know, the one who is better than everyone else (in his own mind).

[Passacaglia]

I am in.

I would like to be the prima dona player. You know, the one who is better than everyone else (in his own mind).

Isn't that what you are in every WW game? :p

[Darth Vilus]

I'll play

[Mia Ow]

My first game! <eep!>

[Darth Vilus]

My first game! <EEP!>

It'll be good

[KWhit]

I'll volunteer for manager.

[Danny]

I am in

[Darth Vilus]

I am in

Try to survive a little longer bra :lol: I know it wasn't your fault though!

[Passacaglia]

My first game! <eep!>

Great! Feel free to PM me if you have any questions but don't want other people in the game to know what you're asking.

[Mia Ow]

Thanks Passacaglia :)

[Darth Vilus]

seems like we have enough, when do we get are roles?

[Darth Vilus]

*our* roles

[LoneStarGirl]

I am in.

I would like to be the prima dona player. You know, the one who is better than everyone else (in his own mind).

Well if GoldenEagle is in then so am I!

[LoneStarGirl]

Lets get this thin started!

[Darth Vilus]

If LSG betrays us again it's going to be hell to pay

[Darth Vilus]

This isn't a bad size, 19 already

[Passacaglia]

seems like we have enough, when do we get are roles?

Probably tomorrow morning. I figure I'll give people who only sign on in the evenings a chance, plus I figure Lorena might want to play, since it's her friend's first game.

[Darth Vilus]

koo

[Lorena]

Probably tomorrow morning. I figure I'll give people who only sign on in the evenings a chance, plus I figure Lorena might want to play, since it's her friend's first game.

I'm actually thinking of sitting this one out to sort of coach her. Not that I'm a good player or anything, but just give her some pointers or if she has any immediate questions, she knows where to find me.

I'm excited to see her starting a game with so many great players, she's gonna learn a lot.

[Darth Vilus]

I'm actually thinking of sitting this one out to sort of coach her. Not that I'm a good player or anything, but just give her some pointers or if she has any immediate questions, she knows where to find me.

I'm excited to see her starting a game with so many great players, she's gonna learn a lot.

aww let her learn the hard way! best way of teaching, i often employ it.

[GoldenEagle]

I'm actually thinking of sitting this one out to sort of coach her. Not that I'm a good player or anything, but just give her some pointers or if she has any immediate questions, she knows where to find me.

I'm excited to see her starting a game with so many great players, she's gonna learn a lot.

Your damn right I am great. Not only as footballer but also as a werewolf player. I should easily be elected team captain. If not, this manager knows nothing.

[The Jackal]

I must say, this has been a hell of a signup list in less than 24 hours.

[Darth Vilus]

everyone must have been waiting jack

[Lathum]

I must say, this has been a hell of a signup list in less than 24 hours.

I'm the resurector

[Darth Vilus]

I'm the resurector

There can be no return from death. For millenia my order has tried and failed to achieve mastery over death, and it can not be done. Nice try Lathum.

And it will be fun playing with you instead of having u moderate the entire time.

[Lathum]

And it will be fun playing with you instead of having u moderate the entire time.

this may not be accurate

[Darth Vilus]

Fair enough

[Danny]

this may not be accurate

Depends which side you are on ;)

[claphamsa]

this may not be accurate
lulz

[Passacaglia]

Roles are out. Deadline for Day 1 and Night 1 (i.e. a 24-hour clock), will be 2 PM Central Thursday.

[claphamsa]

2 pm central... thats 3pm real time! yay :D

[claphamsa]

I R Villegar!

[claphamsa]

and I have no interest in being manager, Im too busy with work.

[Passacaglia]

and I have no interest in being manager, Im too busy with work.

You're too late on that one anyway! The Manager is KWhit.

[Alan T]

Checking in as well. I honestly don't know much about soccer, but I'm hoping that doesn't cause the manager to keep me off of the team! :)

[claphamsa]

You're too late on that one anyway! The Manager is KWhit.
oh! well ok :)

[KWhit]

All right, you group of lugnuts!

Let's see what you got!

(watches 5 minutes of practice).

Can I resign?

[KWhit]

Your damn right I am great. Not only as footballer but also as a werewolf player. I should easily be elected team captain. If not, this manager knows nothing.

Benched.

[KWhit]

Checking in as well. I honestly don't know much about soccer, but I'm hoping that doesn't cause the manager to keep me off of the team! :)

Benched.

[Danny]

Well I'm glad the deadline is tomorrow. Today is my longest day of the week, so it saved me from having to get in a vote in now. I'll be out pretty much all day, but will be around in the evening and tomorrow during the morning/day.

I am not sure I completely understand the "getting 10 points is also a victory". It seems like it would be near impossible for the game to last long enough to win 10 games.

[GoldenEagle]

All right, you group of lugnuts!

Let's see what you got!

(watches 5 minutes of practice).

Can I resign?

You obviously have missed my skills, gaffer. Of course, I really was not put forward much effort. I don't have to. I am the best player on this team. No one can do what I can do with the ball.

By the way, I have volunteered to take set pieces this season. I have made your decision easy for you.

[Telle]

Villager checking in.

[JAG]

Lets kick some ass, and the ball as needed.

We'll have to see how match reports work to figure out how best to make use of the information, but my suspicion is it'll end up being a math or logic problem after we get 2-3 games' info to work with. One thing I thought was interesting from the rules that I missed on the first read-through:

Win, Lose, or Draw – The skill values of the starters at their position will be added up, plus the average skill scores for the highest three bench players. If the total is higher than 9, the squad wins. If the number is between 6 and 9, it’s a draw. If the number is less than 6, the squad loses. A win earns the squad three points, a draw gets one, and a loss nothing.

So basically we have 14 positions (11 on the field, 3 on the bench) where we need to get 10 points to get the full 3 points per match.

[lerriuqs]

Checking in - I want to play coach!!!

[JAG]

I am not sure I completely understand the "getting 10 points is also a victory". It seems like it would be near impossible for the game to last long enough to win 10 games.

We don't have to win 10 games. Each draw is worth 1 point but each win is worth 3 points, so we only need to win 4 games or win 3 and tie 1. Of course the wolves can extend that by penalizing us points, but at that point they aren't killing villagers, so it behooves us to sort out who should be playing where ASAP.

[KWhit]

I am assuming that you players don't have any indications in your role description as to what skills you may be good at, correct?

So it will be trial and error.

[lerriuqs]

I'd like to play Winger coach and no we didn't get anything as far as skills go.

[Chief Rum]

Checking in.

Shucks, too bad I didn't get manager. Oh well, KWhit, you better do a good job! :)

[claphamsa]

ok, looking over the rules, and questioning pass....the manager is known good, and cannot be nightkilled! so. i trust kwitt :D

this also makes the endgame interesting (when we get there) since the only way he can die is from a brutal wolf kill... thats a huge help to us :)

[Passacaglia]

ok, looking over the rules, and questioning pass....the manager is known good, and cannot be nightkilled! so. i trust kwitt :D

this also makes the endgame interesting (when we get there) since the only way he can die is from a brutal wolf kill... thats a huge help to us :)

There's no brutal wolf in this game -- but the manager does not count as being 'on the team' in the 1:1 ratio calculation.

[The Jackal]

Checking in. I played keeper for many years, but I have no idea how real life experience will translate into random numbers. :)

[GoldenEagle]

I did not get any skills, but if I did, they would have been massive. I am afraid I will be killed at night though. The wolves are going to target me because they know I am the best player.

I am thinking of turning in a transfer request, but I know I am so important to the club.

[KWhit]

There's no brutal wolf in this game -- but the manager does not count as being 'on the team' in the 1:1 ratio calculation.

Ah. That makes me feel a LOT better!

[KWhit]

I did not get any skills, but if I did, they would have been massive. I am afraid I will be killed at night though. The wolves are going to target me because they know I am the best player.

I am thinking of turning in a transfer request, but I know I am so important to the club.

Yes, very important.

Can you go fetch me a beer? Thanks.

[KWhit]

So, Pass. We're in the day phase now, right? So I will submit a lineup tomorrow after 2 sometime?

And between now and then we have a day one vote for "lynch?"

Is that correct?

Also, if a player on the roster is night-killed, can I replace him or does the 1st bench player move into that spot?

[PurdueBrad]

Checking in guys. I won't be around a ton tonight (softball and chiropractor) but am good the rest of the way.

[Passacaglia]

You will submit a lineup before 2 sometime. Anyone night-killed will not be replaced. You can send conditional orders so that you don't end up playing anyone who gets lynched.

[PurdueBrad]

All right, you group of lugnuts!

Let's see what you got!

(watches 5 minutes of practice).

Can I resign?

Ha, you should just wait to see how much PurdueBrad brings in in transfer fees. PB is the heart and soul of this team and PB will not be insulted like this. PB means, we're talking about practice...practice man...c'mon, PurdueBrad don't care about no practice...PRACTICE?!?

[claphamsa]

we need to vote for someone right?

vote mia ow!

welcome :D

[KWhit]

You will submit a lineup before 2 sometime. Anyone night-killed will not be replaced. You can send conditional orders so that you don't end up playing anyone who gets lynched.

And are we supposed to vote for lynch today? (Between now and 2 tomorrow)?

[Chief Rum]

Okay, this is a very interesting rule set.

Some food for thought...

1. Should the "Jealous" good role just announce himself? Or that person in some way find a way to let KWhit know his role? Not sure what good would come from placing this role on the bench and having him kill a starter, possibly a good one, to get on the pitch.

2. The PMing. There's a potential lot of it in this game, with the position PMing. The bench PM group is probably bigger (or as big) as the wolf group in this game. I am presuming the PM status will remain in place the entire next day following the match, since we don't know KWhit's lineup until the deadline. (Pass to confirm)

3. The non-specific position skill (at least to our knowledge). The fact anyone can be placed anywhere means that KWhit can orchestrate who PMs who, and also can put something together whereby messages can be passed along between different players through go-betweens by means of position movement.

4. The wolves can choose to set us up for league violations, with a 2 point penalty, instead of doing a kill. If they chose to do this every night, instead of a kill, we would have to win ten matches (3 per match; 30 points total; - 2points per night; 20 points total == 10 points). So the wolves can make it very difficult for us to reach 10 if they want (at a price, of course).

Question for Pass: Is our skill set overall general, or do we each have hidden individual skill levels for particular positions?

[KWhit]

we need to vote for someone right?

vote mia ow!

welcome :D

Whoa, Nelly.

I'm thinking we need to No Lynch today.

We need players in order to win games. A lynch of a good player could be disastrous for our chances on the field.

[Passacaglia]

And are we supposed to vote for lynch today? (Between now and 2 tomorrow)?

Yes.

[DaddyTorgo]

I got my PM, checking in. Haven't even looked at it yet so I have no idea who's side I'm on. Although I guess if I was a wolf I'd have more than 1 PM waiting for me as my fellow wolves said hello...

[DaddyTorgo]

surprise surprise...i'm a regular joe

[Passacaglia]

Okay, this is a very interesting rule set.

Some food for thought...

1. Should the "Jealous" good role just announce himself? Or that person in some way find a way to let KWhit know his role? Not sure what good would come from placing this role on the bench and having him kill a starter, possibly a good one, to get on the pitch.

2. The PMing. There's a potential lot of it in this game, with the position PMing. The bench PM group is probably bigger (or as big) as the wolf group in this game. I am presuming the PM status will remain in place the entire next day following the match, since we don't know KWhit's lineup until the deadline. (Pass to confirm)

3. The non-specific position skill (at least to our knowledge). The fact anyone can be placed anywhere means that KWhit can orchestrate who PMs who, and also can put something together whereby messages can be passed along between different players through go-betweens by means of position movement.

4. The wolves can choose to set us up for league violations, with a 2 point penalty, instead of doing a kill. If they chose to do this every night, instead of a kill, we would have to win ten matches (3 per match; 30 points total; - 2points per night; 20 points total == 10 points). So the wolves can make it very difficult for us to reach 10 if they want (at a price, of course).

Question for Pass: Is our skill set overall general, or do we each have hidden individual skill levels for particular positions?

2. Yes.

You have individual skill levels for each position.

[Telle]

Whoa, Nelly.

I'm thinking we need to No Lynch today.

We need players in order to win games. A lynch of a good player could be disastrous for our chances on the field.

I'm not a fan of not lynching. Makes for a very difficult game.

[KWhit]

All right guys.

As manager of this club, it is my duty to put the best team I can on the field. To do that, I want to begin evaluating talent before we start exterminating each other.

VOTE NO LYNCH

[KWhit]

Pass,

Do the wolves play just as well in the games as the normal players? Or do they have the ability to try to play poorly to keep us from winning?

[claphamsa]

All right guys.

As manager of this club, it is my duty to put the best team I can on the field. To do that, I want to begin evaluating talent before we start exterminating each other.

VOTE NO LYNCH


by the randomness of the talents, and the fact that you only get 1 agrregate for each game... it will take a ton of games (5-6 maybe?) before you can actually get any usefull estimates form this! do you propose we not find wolves until then?

[Chief Rum]

Pass,

Do the wolves play just as well in the games as the normal players? Or do they have the ability to try to play poorly to keep us from winning?

Good question, was wondering that myself.

I'm okay with a No Lynch, although I think that as long as we have more than 17 players (16 in the lineup, plus KWhit), we have some leeway on lynching without hurting the team.

The problem right now, of course, is lack of information on our specific player skills.

P.S. For those who don't know soccer, negative standings points is possible from violations. So even if we lose or draw in Game One, I would imagine Pass will keep to soccer rules if the wolves choose to go the league violation route, and we'll actually have negative points at that time.

[Passacaglia]

Pass,

Do the wolves play just as well in the games as the normal players? Or do they have the ability to try to play poorly to keep us from winning?

Yes, wolves play just as well. No, they have no ability to play poorly.

[GoldenEagle]

Yes, very important.

Can you go fetch me a beer? Thanks.

Gaffer,

With all due respect, one of the non-key squad players should be used to fetch your adult beverage of choice.

I am too busy practicing my embellishing tactics for tonight's match. It is unlikely (if not impossible) that I will lose the ball in the penalty area. However, if it does happen, I am willing to sell the call. You see, I am a team player.

[Alan T]

Kwhit, I'd like a shot to try out as goalie for the first game if possible! I might not know much about soccer, but I have great reflexes!

[DaddyTorgo]

i'm also busy as anything today, and tomorrow will be setting up our computers in our new office, but i'll do what i can to be around...and for sure will be around after work

[DaddyTorgo]

i'd like to play rather than sit on the bench, but it's obviously hit-or-miss where you play me, so i'm not going to be silly enough to pretend that i have a preference.

[GoldenEagle]

Kwhit, I'd like a shot to try out as goalie for the first game if possible! I might not know much about soccer, but I have great reflexes!

I, as the team's best player, have no problem with this. I could play goalkeeper, but then who would score the goals? I prefer to play up-top. I could play on the wing, but I am not really into tracking-back that often.

If you like, gaffer, I can go kick some balls at this lad who wants to play goalkeeper. But you probably will not be able determine much about his abilities, as it is unlikely he will be able to save any of my shots.

[JAG]

1. Should the "Jealous" good role just announce himself? Or that person in some way find a way to let KWhit know his role? Not sure what good would come from placing this role on the bench and having him kill a starter, possibly a good one, to get on the pitch.

I think there's more benefit in keeping quiet for now since we wouldn't need to make use of this role in the early going when we lack information and because it could be a NK target in the absence of anything else for the wolves to go after. It's possible we might clearly identify a wolf at some point and then KWhit could manipulate the lineup to have the wolf start and the jealous player sit the bench.

4. The wolves can choose to set us up for league violations, with a 2 point penalty, instead of doing a kill. If they chose to do this every night, instead of a kill, we would have to win ten matches (3 per match; 30 points total; - 2points per night; 20 points total == 10 points). So the wolves can make it very difficult for us to reach 10 if they want (at a price, of course).

I don't expect the wolves to forego night kills unless we get close to 10 points. It may take us quite some time to figure out a combination that wins us a match and they have the ability to kill players whom we figure out the right position to play.

[Lathum]

GE is cracking me up, glad he is back.

I am not a fan of no lynch.

As Clap pointed out, with all the combo's we have I'm not sure 1 day makes a huge difference.

[Chief Rum]

Actually, it wasn't all that clear in the rules that the Jealous player will pick which starter he kills. My impression reading it was that it was random.

Pass, does the Jealous player role select the starter he kills?

[KWhit]

Well, I thought it meant that the player had a choice to kill a starter, but it's not specifically stated as so. Pass, is this an action that the player can control? Or does his jealousy just MAKE him kill someone to get in the lineup?

[JAG]

Actually, it wasn't all that clear in the rules that the Jealous player will pick which starter he kills. My impression reading it was that it was random.

Pass, does the Jealous player role select the starter he kills?

Hm, good point. It said 'choose to kill one of the starters' and I think I read it as 'choose a starter to kill'. If it's random, that takes a lot of luster off using it.

Pass, while you're answering CR's question, is the Jealous ability a repeatable ability or one-time use?

[Mia Ow]

Got my PM. Checking in :)

[KWhit]

Well, I thought it meant that the player had a choice to kill a starter, but it's not specifically stated as so. Pass, is this an action that the player can control? Or does his jealousy just MAKE him kill someone to get in the lineup?

Jeez. And now that I reread it again, it does say "choose." So I guess he doesn't HAVE to use the ability if placed on the bench.

I would hope that he would use some restraint this early in the game.

I plan on getting everyone in one of the first two games so I can start to get some evaluation going of players.

[Darth Vilus]

Personally i believe it's easier to try to knock off wolves than to try and win by points. That's just me though.

[Darth Vilus]

So the manager can't be killed but doesn't count as a player either Pass?

[Lathum]

I plan on getting everyone in one of the first two games so I can start to get some evaluation going of players.

I think if we win the first game we stick with that lineup

[Passacaglia]

Actually, it wasn't all that clear in the rules that the Jealous player will pick which starter he kills. My impression reading it was that it was random.

Pass, does the Jealous player role select the starter he kills?

Yes. Each night, the Jealous player selects a target. If the conditions are met (the Jealous player is not a starter, and the target is a starter), then the Jealous player kills the target. Other conditional orders can be made as well. The Jealous player can selects a target each night, but will only be able to kill once (and after the kill happens, there's no point selecting targets anymore).

[Passacaglia]

So the manager can't be killed but doesn't count as a player either Pass?

Yes.

[Passacaglia]

Yes. Each night, the Jealous player selects a target. If the conditions are met (the Jealous player is not a starter, and the target is a starter), then the Jealous player kills the target. Other conditional orders can be made as well. The Jealous player can selects a target each night, but will only be able to kill once (and after the kill happens, there's no point selecting targets anymore).

Also, the Jealous player is not required to select a player each night. It's just an option.

[Darth Vilus]

So there are 4 wolves correct?

[claphamsa]

So there are 4 wolves correct?
only the wolves know that...

[Darth Vilus]

I still owe you from last time bro...

[claphamsa]

I still owe you from last time bro...
you owe me props and devotion? great!

[GoldenEagle]

GoldenEagle denies transfer talk to Wolverhampton Wolves

Rumors floating around that Wolverhampton Wolves would be interesting in signing WW United striker are false, according to the player.

"Look, I can see why they are interested in me," said starlet GoldenEagle, "But I am fully committed to WW United and Kwhit at the time. Plus, why would I want to be play for a team called the Wolves?"

[JAG]

After thinking about it, I agree with KWhit that we shouldn't be lynching today. While there are risks with both approaches, right now our ratio is at its worst for picking a wolf out of the pool of players and it buys us more time to figure out player skills. By lynching, we would reduce the size of our squad (whether wolf or player) and make it harder to win games. Winning games puts the most pressure on the wolves because as soon as we get close to 10 points, they are forced to stop killing villagers.

VOTE NO LYNCH

[Passacaglia]

Vote count:


Mia Ow -- claphamsa (94)
No Lynch -- Kwhit (103) JAG (131)

[MartinD]

I think that the best option at this point is to keep as many players alive as possible - while this does have the disadvantage of not giving us any real information to work with in terms of finding out who the wolves are, it does give KWhit more players to work with from the point of view of trying to win matches.

VOTE NO LYNCH

[Passacaglia]

Small change to the rules. I made the skill levels to go from 1 to 100 instead of 0 to 1, to make them more "FOF-style" -- and now a total score of 600 to 800 is a draw, and higher than 800 is a win.

[Passacaglia]

Vote count:


Mia Ow 1 -- claphamsa (94)
No Lynch 3 -- Kwhit (103) JAG (131) MartinD (133)

[PurdueBrad]

Small change to the rules. I made the skill levels to go from 1 to 100 instead of 0 to 1, to make them more "FOF-style" -- and now a total score of 600 to 800 is a draw, and higher than 800 is a win.

If it is like OOTP, you don't have to show my ratings over 100, just leave them hidden. I know they are way up there.

[Schmidty]

I wanted to be special, but I'm not.

I want to be a center, but I probably won't get to. Woe is me.

[claphamsa]

busy day....

[claphamsa]

I wanted to be special, but I'm not.

I want to be a center, but I probably won't get to. Woe is me.


a center? lulz!

[Schmidty]

a center? lulz!

Isn't this basketball?

[Mia Ow]

Ok here goes nothing...I vote MartinD

[Mia Ow]

vote MartinD

[LoneStarGirl]

I really am not a fan of no lynch, my only problem is I can't get online from 7-5 central time, so my votes will be at night and some what uninformed.

And coach, I really want to play Sweeper! I am great at defense and roughing up the other team!

[Danny]

I am here for a brief moment at my dad's house before I have class. Am reading, but will need to wait until late tonight or tomorrow to give my thoughts.

[Danny]

Personally i believe it's easier to try to knock off wolves than to try and win by points. That's just me though.

I lied, there was a lot fewer posts than I thought, so I have a time to respond a bit.

I really don't know whether this is true or not, but it very well could be. And since we don't know how accomplishable winning the game by points is, it would be foolish to give the wolves free kills while we vote no lynch. I think we need to play this as regular werewolf and then after a game or two we might realize that the game is very winnable through points. But if you go with that strategy from the beginning we could dig ourselves a hole.

[J23]

Since we have 18 people signed up, and 16 positions listed + 1 coach. Is the extra person on the bench to bring it up to 6 bench players?

Just a heads up, being able to get on the boards around this deadline time is exceedingly hit or miss w/ work. I'll do what I can to stay active though.

[The Jackal]

I've got dinner plans for the next few hours but I'll check back later to see if there's any sort of consensus on lynch vs no lynch. It seems like no lynch could make sense for the first day because of the value of having a larger roster, but I don't particularly like not going after wolves.

[LoneStarGirl]

I just looked and saw that there was no sweeper! What a shame, so I guess I'll volunteer to be a center back.

[GoldenEagle]

I have often told the gaffer that he should lynch everyone on the squad except for me, but he is yet to heed my advice.

[Passacaglia]

Since we have 18 people signed up, and 16 positions listed + 1 coach. Is the extra person on the bench to bring it up to 6 bench players?

Just a heads up, being able to get on the boards around this deadline time is exceedingly hit or miss w/ work. I'll do what I can to stay active though.

Only 5 bench players. The rest don't dress for the game.

[LoneStarGirl]

Wow no help for me tonight... I guess I am going to wake up extra early tomorrow morning to see if we reached a verdict on the No lynch vs lynch situation. I hate first day randomness, but if we skip the first day and no lynch, then our second day will be plagued with first day randomness, so its a lose lose situation!

[Alan T]

Can someone who is on the side of "No Lynch" help give me a good reason for it in this game?

I'm well known for being a huge supporter of a No lynch in games where it makes the most mathematical sense (ie: games when the villagers have a large number of roles and a large number of information gathering roles). In those cases, keeping the villagers alive longer helps provide information faster to the village than early day lynches do, so it makes sense in those cases.

In this game's case, there really is not a large number of roles, there seems to not be any great number of ways to reach information. In most senses other than the soccer scoring aspect of the game, this is a fairly straight forward game it seems.

So as best I can tell, the only benefit to pushing no lynches early would be to keep more people alive longer for the purpose of scoring, but since there is a large number of us in each game, it is fairly difficult to get any read simply from the games on which ones are the better scorers. It would take many many days to narrow that down, and if we're actually holding off on lynches that long then this becomes some other type of game (not werewolf).

So it doesn't seem that I can find any good reason for a no lynch early in this game from a mathematical standpoint. That approach seems to favor the wolves more than the villagers in this particular setup. (It is not always this cut and dry in other games of course). Can anyone provide me a solid mathematical reason why no lynch makes sense today?

[Lathum]

Vote Clap

Pretty random, but not a fan of his early vote for Mia

[Schmidty]

I better make my vote now, since I'm a west-coaster who doesn't always get up on time when I have a day off. The leading idea is to no-vote to let KWhit make his choice, but I don't understand that since he knows nothing about the players ability scores anyway yet. All it would be is a wasted vote. So I'm going with someone who already has a vote (no offense to him):

Vote MartinD

[lerriuqs]

I won't be voting no lynch but I'm going to save my vote till morning.

Night all.

[LoneStarGirl]

I am afraid that I will not wake up early enough to get online and vote. And I would hate to be the person to skip a vote, they always seem to have a target on their backs, so

vote clap

Just because Martin has a vote already and I figured we could make this a race

[Darth Vilus]

vote MartinD

Please don't listen to Lorena anymore

[Darth Vilus]

And I'm not down with "No lynch". If the points work out then great but my main target is the wolves. If we keep our eyes on the points victory we're going to be gettig hit hard along the way. i don't really see the advantage to not lynching.

[Darth Vilus]

Vote Clap

[The Jackal]

Interesting late action there. I'd like someone to respond to Alan because I've been mulling over the pros and cons of a no lynch in this particular game as well. I'll check back in when I wake up.

[Darth Vilus]

If you're reffering to my late action Jack I just got home a little while ago:)

[Darth Vilus]

And LoneStarGirl, is your name a reference to Spaceballs?

[Schmidty]

Hey Darth, I'm watching Star Wars. It's good. Have you seen it before?

[Darth Vilus]

What's Star Wars?

[Darth Vilus]

Oh, and now that i think about it, well anyone let me know if the Sith stuff starts to get old. I'll tone it down then:D

[MartinD]

Looks like I'm a candidate on Day 1 - well, it had to happen at some point...

Not really much I can say or do to make a case for myself here, but you won't learn anything from lynching me.

[JAG]

Can someone who is on the side of "No Lynch" help give me a good reason for it in this game?

While there are risks with both approaches, right now our ratio is at its worst for picking a wolf out of the pool of players and it buys us more time to figure out player skills. By lynching, we would reduce the size of our squad (whether wolf or player) and make it harder to win games. Winning games puts the most pressure on the wolves because as soon as we get close to 10 points, they are forced to stop killing villagers.

Basically I think it's best to slow the game down so when we decide to lynch, we can make a more informed decision. By doing that, we increase our chances of putting together a winning soccer team and thus prevent the wolves from killing players as they are forced to penalize us points instead of killing villagers. At that later point, we can start lynching, but with superior odds (if there are 4 wolves for example, 4 out of 11 chance instead of 4 out of 14 chance) and more information about player skills. All things being equal, why would we kill our superstar goalie? How do you know today's lynch won't kill that person?

Lastly, we still have a seer who can gather information from us. The fewer villagers we kill off, the harder it is for the wolves to find that person. If we hold off lynching for now, we may have a wolf to lynch when we start or at least a CoT not to lynch.

since there is a large number of us in each game, it is fairly difficult to get any read simply from the games on which ones are the better scorers.

We honestly have no clue how that will shake out until we receive our first match report, but that's another reason to hold off lynching in my opinion. From the rules, it sounds like we'll get a position report so if a position is doing really well, we'll obviously leave those people where they are.

So for turnabout, can someone who is on the side of lynching give me a reason why we want to diminish our base of players, with the highest probability killing a player and not a wolf (and potentially killing a roled villager)? It seems to me you're turning this into a normal game of werewolf instead of one where the villagers have a mechanism to force wolves not to kill villagers and a chance to start lynching when the odds are more in our favor.

[JAG]

By the way, if others do support no lynch but have current votes on players out or haven't yet voted and will be around near the deadline today, the best thing to do would be to vote as if you're going to actually lynch someone and then change to no lynch at the last minute, so that we can potentially learn something from the vote in later days without actually killing a villager.

[Alan T]

Basically I think it's best to slow the game down so when we decide to lynch, we can make a more informed decision. By doing that, we increase our chances of putting together a winning soccer team and thus prevent the wolves from killing players as they are forced to penalize us points instead of killing villagers. At that later point, we can start lynching, but with superior odds (if there are 4 wolves for example, 4 out of 11 chance instead of 4 out of 14 chance) and more information about player skills. All things being equal, why would we kill our superstar goalie? How do you know today's lynch won't kill that person?

Lastly, we still have a seer who can gather information from us. The fewer villagers we kill off, the harder it is for the wolves to find that person. If we hold off lynching for now, we may have a wolf to lynch when we start or at least a CoT not to lynch.



We honestly have no clue how that will shake out until we receive our first match report, but that's another reason to hold off lynching in my opinion. From the rules, it sounds like we'll get a position report so if a position is doing really well, we'll obviously leave those people where they are.

So for turnabout, can someone who is on the side of lynching give me a reason why we want to diminish our base of players, with the highest probability killing a player and not a wolf (and potentially killing a roled villager)? It seems to me you're turning this into a normal game of werewolf instead of one where the villagers have a mechanism to force wolves not to kill villagers and a chance to start lynching when the odds are more in our favor.


I guess it is possible that you either have more knowledge of what is occurring behind the scenes in this game due to your role, or perhaps you have more knowledge of soccer than I do (easily possible). I do not see the odds are in our favor if both sides choose to play this as some game other than WW. They could easily apply -2 each night to us without any stopping if they want to, while we have to find the right combination of players that would result in enough points for a win. (Something that has already been stated will be tough for us to work out individually player by player unless we luck into a good combination some how). Maybe I am reading too much into things, but it seems like a pretty broken WW game if Pass designed it where it would easily be winnable by just that mechanism. (who knows, I've been wrong before though!)

The reality is that we don't have a ton of information roles out there. We have only the Wanderer and that is it. In games where there are 5 or 6 different ways to get information, slowing down the rate of kills to get that information makes complete sense. In this game however, all you are doing by no lynching is handing the tempo of the game over to the wolves. It then becomes their ability to decide to night kill or to incur sanctions.

Basically we've seen this time and time again in a game when only the seer is our information source, and they get killed, we end up with a huge void for the remainder of the game. In the games that happens and there has been a solid voting history, the games often end up well for the village. I've seen very few games where a seer gets killed, the voting has been all over the place that ended well for the village. People rely too much on the crutch of the seer in these games when instead they should encourage discussion/debate and have a trail of conversation and votes to determine where to go.

A voting history is the true weapon for the village in a game where there are very few roles such as this one.

[claphamsa]

Wow no help for me tonight... I guess I am going to wake up extra early tomorrow morning to see if we reached a verdict on the No lynch vs lynch situation. I hate first day randomness, but if we skip the first day and no lynch, then our second day will be plagued with first day randomness, so its a lose lose situation!
so vote for someone!

[claphamsa]

wow! i wake up to 3 votes.....

[claphamsa]

Latum votes for me since he doesnt like a random vote, LSG votes for me since.... (maybe i didnt put out enough at the prom). and darth votes for me becasue he couldnt beat out my fake reveal last game!

dont vote for me im good!

[claphamsa]

O crap, also jsut realized I have a staff meeting from 12-430 today :(

[KWhit]

I guess it is possible that you either have more knowledge of what is occurring behind the scenes in this game due to your role, or perhaps you have more knowledge of soccer than I do (easily possible). I do not see the odds are in our favor if both sides choose to play this as some game other than WW. They could easily apply -2 each night to us without any stopping if they want to, while we have to find the right combination of players that would result in enough points for a win. (Something that has already been stated will be tough for us to work out individually player by player unless we luck into a good combination some how). Maybe I am reading too much into things, but it seems like a pretty broken WW game if Pass designed it where it would easily be winnable by just that mechanism. (who knows, I've been wrong before though!)

The reality is that we don't have a ton of information roles out there. We have only the Wanderer and that is it. In games where there are 5 or 6 different ways to get information, slowing down the rate of kills to get that information makes complete sense. In this game however, all you are doing by no lynching is handing the tempo of the game over to the wolves. It then becomes their ability to decide to night kill or to incur sanctions.

Basically we've seen this time and time again in a game when only the seer is our information source, and they get killed, we end up with a huge void for the remainder of the game. In the games that happens and there has been a solid voting history, the games often end up well for the village. I've seen very few games where a seer gets killed, the voting has been all over the place that ended well for the village. People rely too much on the crutch of the seer in these games when instead they should encourage discussion/debate and have a trail of conversation and votes to determine where to go.

A voting history is the true weapon for the village in a game where there are very few roles such as this one.

I think the game playing mechanic is an advantage to the good guys. Once we find a winning combination of players, we will win every game as long as we keep that combination of players out there (there is no random factor to it). So the wolves will be forced to go after those players in that group, and I think it will become clear who the star players are, which will make them prime targets to go after - letting the bodyguard have a smaller group from which to guard and potentially net us a wolf.

If we start winning games, the wolves will be forced into a specific strategy to keep us from winning. And if they want to give us a -2 point penalty, that's fine. We can just keep right on winning and seer scanning.

[JAG]

I do not see the odds are in our favor if both sides choose to play this as some game other than WW. They could easily apply -2 each night to us without any stopping if they want to, while we have to find the right combination of players that would result in enough points for a win.

They can't do that because while they're applying -2 to us, the seer continues to scan players and gather information. In the long run we'll find a combination of players that gets us 3 points per game and their -2 can't overcome that (net +1 per day for us).

The -2 points is a red herring. The wolves are forced to kill people, preferably the ones that we find the right position for. They have to kill us as fast as possible before we can put together a winning team. Once we get to 7 points, they still have to gamble on killing a star player and hoping we can't replace them because if they dock us -2 points, we field the same team and get up to 8 points and they face the same situation.

Basically we're not refusing to play the WW aspect of the game, we're just delaying it so we can start when it's more in our favor. There are risks for sure, if we can't figure out a combination of players to win, we've wasted some days where we may have gotten lucky and killed wolves with lynches. But there are risks in playing this as a straight up WW game as well. The village sometimes lynches roled players. The village doesn't always win with the regular set of rules.

As I said earlier this morning, the best thing we can do is have people who decide this is optimal strategy vote to lynch someone, then near deadline change their votes to No Lynch so it's not a completely wasted day of voting (I don't see a point in my doing so since I've made my point enough).

Basically we've seen this time and time again in a game when only the seer is our information source, and they get killed, we end up with a huge void for the remainder of the game. In the games that happens and there has been a solid voting history, the games often end up well for the village. I've seen very few games where a seer gets killed, the voting has been all over the place that ended well for the village. People rely too much on the crutch of the seer in these games when instead they should encourage discussion/debate and have a trail of conversation and votes to determine where to go.

Well, I bow to your experience in this regard because I haven't been in or seen many games where no lynch is an option. I have, however, seen games where wolves have been successful in manipulating voting records.

[Alan T]

Well, if winning games is as easy as Kwhit and you suggest.. I guess you are right, we would be foolish to even try it any other way.

I can't help but think that things usually aren't quite that easy though. I don't see why the wolves would allow us to keep rolling a "winning" lineup out day after day without picking off players and forcing us to change things up. I also would guess if we have several roles, the wolves likely have some kind of role that would hamper our ability to score points as well.

I guess I'll consider your point some here, it just doesn't really pass the sniff test for me right now though. I can't see how a WW game would be that easy of a set up. I honestly feel that you all are taking the best case scenerio for winning games and placing too much assumption on that ending up being the norm.

[KWhit]

Well, if winning games is as easy as Kwhit and you suggest.. I guess you are right, we would be foolish to even try it any other way.

I can't help but think that things usually aren't quite that easy though. I don't see why the wolves would allow us to keep rolling a "winning" lineup out day after day without picking off players and forcing us to change things up. I also would guess if we have several roles, the wolves likely have some kind of role that would hamper our ability to score points as well.

I guess I'll consider your point some here, it just doesn't really pass the sniff test for me right now though. I can't see how a WW game would be that easy of a set up. I honestly feel that you all are taking the best case scenerio for winning games and placing too much assumption on that ending up being the norm.

I'm certainly not saying it's easy. But while we have the numbers to field a strong team, it benefits us to be conservative with out lynches (in other words, don't just blindly vote for someone on day 1). The wolves will make night kills to get rid of our players for sure (especially once we start winning).

[KWhit]

I'm certainly not saying it's easy. But while we have the numbers to field a strong team, it benefits us to be conservative with out lynches (in other words, don't just blindly vote for someone on day 1). The wolves will make night kills to get rid of our players for sure (especially once we start winning).

That should say "be conservative with our lynchings."

[KWhit]

And I don't think it makes sense to vote No Lynch more than once (and maybe twice maximum). But for day 1 it seems to make sense to me.

[Passacaglia]

How about a morning vote count?


Mia Ow 1 -- claphamsa (94)
No Lynch 3 -- Kwhit (103) JAG (131) MartinD (133)
MartinD 2 -- Mia Ow (142) Schmidty (154)
claphamsa 3 -- Lathum (153) LoneStarGirl (156) Darth Vilus (159)

[DaddyTorgo]

what's up?

[DaddyTorgo]

VOTE NO LYNCH

[Telle]

vote MartinD

Just evening up the field, and I am in favor of lynching over not lynching. The vote history is one of the most important tools we have as a village.

[Lathum]

No lynch to me is a terrible idea.

Jag suggested we get down to 15 players, he mentioned an 11-4 ratio. To me that is insanity.

At that point we would have given the wolves 4 free kills, have no voting record, and while we would have a greater chance to hit a wolf when we do vote, we also have a chance to hit on a rolled villager.

We would basically be starting day 1 on day 5 with the hopes the seer may have some information and possibly down 4 villagers since I have a feeling the wolves early on will be more concerned with killing at night to try and hit a rolled villager.

[PurdueBrad]

I'll follow the current line of thought although it isn't one I normally prescribe to. My thoughts are that I would like to see day 1's lineup performance and maybe pick from that list rather than continue to no lynch. If they do really well, probably don't take the risk but if they do poorly, then I would likely pick from someone there.

vote no lynch

[Lathum]

dola- I think this may turn into a run off of lynch vs. no lynch with those of us in favor of a lynch having to consolodate our vote onto one person.

[Lathum]

I'll follow the current line of thought although it isn't one I normally prescribe to. My thoughts are that I would like to see day 1's lineup performance and maybe pick from that list rather than continue to no lynch. If they do really well, probably don't take the risk but if they do poorly, then I would likely pick from someone there.



and if we win the wolves will kill someone from that squad, forcing us to start over with a new lineup anyway on D2.

[Alan T]

I'll follow the current line of thought although it isn't one I normally prescribe to. My thoughts are that I would like to see day 1's lineup performance and maybe pick from that list rather than continue to no lynch. If they do really well, probably don't take the risk but if they do poorly, then I would likely pick from someone there.

vote no lynch


It is pretty easy for Kwhit to pick players not on the block to be lynched for the starting lineup. I don't see any reason for him to put someone in the starting lineup who he thinks has a good chance of being lynched today.

[Lathum]

OK, I am a little confused how the deadline works.

Deadline is a 2 PM CST.

At that deadline KWhit submits the lineup, the game is played, there is a lynch and night actions are processed. IS this a 24 hour clock?

Is this correct? And if so what is the order this all happens?

Id the person who is night killed counted for the game?

Are lineups made public, and if so when?

When can we begin PMing?

[KWhit]

and if we win the wolves will kill someone from that squad, forcing us to start over with a new lineup anyway on D2.

If we win, we have a smaller group to bodyguard and will be slightly more likely to catch a wolf. And the wolves can only kill one player. We don't need to start with a brand new lineup, just replace one player. And we'll have a match report to go by as well so I can tweak the lineup to be even more effective for game 2 by changing out the worst performers.

[lerriuqs]

Vote Clap

I've never seen No lynch be effective and even with the games I don't see it starting onw...

[claphamsa]

dola- I think this may turn into a run off of lynch vs. no lynch with those of us in favor of a lynch having to consolodate our vote onto one person.
I agre

unvote miaow
vote martin!

sorry dawg.

[KWhit]

I have a lineup ready to submit, with conditionals that should take care of any strangeness that happens between now and 2.

[Lathum]

If we win, we have a smaller group to bodyguard and will be slightly more likely to catch a wolf. And the wolves can only kill one player. We don't need to start with a brand new lineup, just replace one player. And we'll have a match report to go by as well so I can tweak the lineup to be even more effective for game 2 by changing out the worst performers.

Replacing one person is starting with a brand new lineup.

And if we lose we give the wolves a free kill, not to mention the wolves may decide to take out a bench player, knowing it is essentialy a free kill. Also the BG cold be on the bench protecting themselves. Then we start over a player down tomorrow.

I think the people who are voting no lynch are assuming it will be to easy to win games.

[Telle]

Votes as of post #194:

5 - no lynch - KWhit (103), JAG (131), MartinD (133), DaddyTorgo (182). PurdueBrad (185)
4 - MartinD - Mia Ow (142), Schmidty (154), Telle (183). claphamsa (192)
4 - claphamsa - Lathum (153), LSG (156), Darth (159), lerriuqs (191)

Yet to vote: J23, The Jackal, Chief Rum, Alan T, GoldenEagle, Danny

Yet to check in: J23

[KWhit]

Replacing one person is starting with a brand new lineup.


Whatever. Semantics.

We have 11 starters and 3 bench players whose skills factor into the game. So we'd be turning over 1/14th of our lineup due to a wolf lynch. That's just a 7% difference. Call it brand new if you want, but the implication you're making is that it will be a crapshoot to see if we win a second game if one player is changed out. That's just not true. The effectiveness of the other players will still be there and I will have further information to use to improve the lineup and can switch out the worst performers - improving the lineup.

And if the wolves want to take out a bench player, that's fine. We will just keep winning games if no change is made.

Now, I don't think it will be easy to get that first win, but once we do, we will be in the driver's seat and making the wolves react to us - not the other way around.

[Alan T]

dola- I think this may turn into a run off of lynch vs. no lynch with those of us in favor of a lynch having to consolodate our vote onto one person.


Here is the problem with this. Even though I am arguing for a lynch here, having enough people argue for no lynch vs everyone wanting a lynch voting for one person, it still does not provide the voting record that we want.

The voting records only really matter when we can pit a wolf vs someone in the vote. Having people commit their votes to either condemn or lynch the wolf will eventually come out at some point in the game, even if 2-3 days later.

When forcing everyone to vote for one person just to get a lynch done, there is no person to run off and you cut in half your chances of having a wolf on the block. Unfortunately with as many people voting no lynch as they have been here, the wolves have an effective place to hide I fear.

[Lathum]

hmm, i can get behind a switch to J23, even though it is almost never a wolf not checking in

[Lathum]

Whatever. Semantics.

We have 11 starters and 3 bench players whose skills factor into the game. So we'd be turning over 1/14th of our lineup due to a wolf lynch. That's just a 7% difference. Call it brand new if you want, but the implication you're making is that it will be a crapshoot to see if we win a second game if one player is changed out. That's just not true. The effectiveness of the other players will still be there and I will have further information to use to improve the lineup and can switch out the worst performers - improving the lineup.

And if the wolves want to take out a bench player, that's fine. We will just keep winning games if no change is made.

Now, I don't think it will be easy to get that first win, but once we do, we will be in the driver's seat and making the wolves react to us - not the other way around.

And the people behind no lynch are saying keep as many people around as possible as long as possible and that is symantics as well. So we don't lynch today. We then have 17 people instead of 18 to make a lineup from, not a huge improvment and we still have no voting info.

And if we lose then the wolves can go for a bench player assuming they have higher skills.

[KWhit]

And the people behind no lynch are saying keep as many people around as possible as long as possible and that is symantics as well. So we don't lynch today. We then have 17 people instead of 18 to make a lineup from, not a huge improvment and we still have no voting info.

And if we lose then the wolves can go for a bench player assuming they have higher skills.

I'm mainly worried about 3-4 days from now when we don't have enough players to field a full team (with a full bench). If we get a solid lineup together early in the game, it becomes really hard for the wolves to stop us racking up wins and we can win a race to 10 points.

[lerriuqs]

I'm mainly worried about 3-4 days from now when we don't have enough players to field a full team (with a full bench). If we get a solid lineup together early in the game, it becomes really hard for the wolves to stop us racking up wins and we can win a race to 10 points.

That's a really big if IMO. You pretty much need to hit it today or we have no shot as it's going to go downhill fast and I don't see that happening (no offense). The no lynch is not going to work the way you think it is and we'll be stuck in a no information scenario in Day 2 short one guy.

[Lathum]

I'm mainly worried about 3-4 days from now when we don't have enough players to field a full team (with a full bench). If we get a solid lineup together early in the game, it becomes really hard for the wolves to stop us racking up wins and we can win a race to 10 points.

and if we don't the wolves begin with a huge advantage

[JAG]

Replacing one person is starting with a brand new lineup.

And if we lose we give the wolves a free kill, not to mention the wolves may decide to take out a bench player, knowing it is essentialy a free kill. Also the BG cold be on the bench protecting themselves. Then we start over a player down tomorrow.

I think the people who are voting no lynch are assuming it will be to easy to win games.

My understanding how the lineup works is you have a rating at the different positions, maybe you're a 30 at keeper, 70 at defender, 70 at forward. We get a match report and it gives some feedback as to who did well and who did poorly. If we have 5 people that did well, it's because their ratings are in those positions so their value won't change as the days go on. The wolves choose to pick off one (presumably) and then we have 4 people set up for the next match and KWhit will tinker with the other 7 starting positions to find more value. My thinking is we'll be able to sort out who should go where faster than the wolves will be able to kill them off. If we figure out a winning lineup within a couple days, they will be under tremendous pressure because we would only need a couple days more to get to 10 points, unless they want to forego killing players which I think would be poor strategy on their part. As KWhit has said, it also forces them to target specific players which makes it easier for the BG to select a target to block.

Right now we have no information whether or not it will be easy to win games. We don't know about how the ratings are spread out (if they were random 1-100 rolls for every position, everyone should average a 50 at each spot). We're not going to understand this until we get a match report and then we can begin to evaluate. But I would rather wait a day and find this out. We might not kill off someone who we find is good at a position. We can at least eliminate those people from the prospective lynch list on day 2 because they're providing some value to us in winning games until we have reason to doubt their allegiance.

Worst case scenario on D2 we might find that we can't figure out where anyone should play and we suck much more than expected, at which point we might conclude we're forced to play a regular WW game but having lost one player. That to me is worth the risk.

[KWhit]

and if we don't the wolves begin with a huge advantage

What is that big advantage exactly?

[lerriuqs]

What is that big advantage exactly?

No voting record available, they can begin picking off known good players before they become effective in too many games. They'd begin way ahead. As always, the argument for no lynch is very strong if you're a wolf...

[KWhit]

What is that big advantage exactly?

Kind of a rhetorical question, as I think I know what you'd say - "We don't have a voting record." Right?

But we do.

People are still voting between a candidate (even if you guys consolidate votes on one player) and No Lynch. If the candidate turns out to be a wolf, you still have a record of who voted for him and who didn't. Just the same as any day one. Right now, No Lynch is just taking the place of another candidate. We will all still have voting records to look at later on.

[The Jackal]

Sorry no lynch folks, but I do think the voting record is essential, and no lynch has way too much potential to muddle things up in the first few days. There seems to be a fair amount of hidden info in this game (for instance, how difficult it will be for us to actually win - it seems unlikely that random numbers are going to give us 4 wins very quickly). I don't have a leaning one way or the other on the two candidates so I'll just tack one on.

VOTE MARTIN

[Lathum]

What is that big advantage exactly?

you don't think 3-4 days of no voting record, and 3-4 night kills doesn't give them a huge advantage?

[Passacaglia]

OK, I am a little confused how the deadline works.

Deadline is a 2 PM CST.

At that deadline KWhit submits the lineup, the game is played, there is a lynch and night actions are processed. IS this a 24 hour clock?

Is this correct? And if so what is the order this all happens?

Id the person who is night killed counted for the game?

Are lineups made public, and if so when?

When can we begin PMing?

Yes -- lynch happens, and by this time, KWhit has already submitted a lineup (hopefully with conditional orders in there). The night-kill is made, then the match is played -- lineups are made public, and the relevant skill level is revealed for each player. The night-killed player is not counted for the game. The next day begins immediately (so yes, a 24-hour clock) and you can begin PMing then.

[KWhit]

No voting record available, they can begin picking off known good players before they become effective in too many games. They'd begin way ahead. As always, the argument for no lynch is very strong if you're a wolf...

I completely disagree. Knowledge is power - in this game especially as we learn who is good at which positions. The longer we keep the game going the better off we'll be, especially at the expense of lynching a villager (which is what almost always happens on day 1).

[Passacaglia]

By the way, votes will be accepted on the :59, but not on the :00.

[JAG]

you don't think 3-4 days of no voting record, and 3-4 night kills doesn't give them a huge advantage?

FYI, I don't advocate this unless we get a totally kickass match result. My argument is for a D1 no lynch and then see what we learn from the match before deciding on a further course.

[KWhit]

you don't think 3-4 days of no voting record, and 3-4 night kills doesn't give them a huge advantage?

Like I said, we will have a voting record.

And I don't think we should wait 3-4 days. One for sure. Maybe 2 max. Then lynch like crazy.

[claphamsa]

do we have a recent count? I have to leave in 30, and dont want to get lynched!

[Lathum]

Yes -- lynch happens, and by this time, KWhit has already submitted a lineup (hopefully with conditional orders in there). The night-kill is made, then the match is played -- lineups are made public, and the relevant skill level is revealed for each player. The night-killed player is not counted for the game. The next day begins immediately (so yes, a 24-hour clock) and you can begin PMing then.

so I am assuming KWhit should leave the leading vote getters out of the lineup

[claphamsa]

I completely disagree. Knowledge is power - in this game especially as we learn who is good at which positions. The longer we keep the game going the better off we'll be, especially at the expense of lynching a villager (which is what almost always happens on day 1).

I agree with this... but how will you tell who is good at what? all well be given is you score 800... how will you determine who is good wat what from this? it will take 7-8 GAMES before you can even make an educated guess about this!!!!

its an interesting side game.... but when it gets down to it, well either lynch the wolves, or get blindly lucky and win games.

[Lathum]

Since we have 18 people signed up, and 16 positions listed + 1 coach. Is the extra person on the bench to bring it up to 6 bench players?

Just a heads up, being able to get on the boards around this deadline time is exceedingly hit or miss w/ work. I'll do what I can to stay active though.

I guess Telle missed this when indicating J23 didnt check in

[KWhit]

I agree with this... but how will you tell who is good at what? all well be given is you score 800... how will you determine who is good wat what from this? it will take 7-8 GAMES before you can even make an educated guess about this!!!!

its an interesting side game.... but when it gets down to it, well either lynch the wolves, or get blindly lucky and win games.

No. Pass said we'll be told what everyone's skill at their current position is. We'll know immediately who was a top performer at their position and who needs to be moved.

[claphamsa]

o, well i missed that, can you quote it?

[JAG]

clap:

Yes -- lynch happens, and by this time, KWhit has already submitted a lineup (hopefully with conditional orders in there). The night-kill is made, then the match is played -- lineups are made public, and the relevant skill level is revealed for each player. The night-killed player is not counted for the game. The next day begins immediately (so yes, a 24-hour clock) and you can begin PMing then.

[claphamsa]

thanks

[claphamsa]

can we get a vote count?

[Telle]

I guess Telle missed this when indicating J23 didnt check in

Was that after the game started? If so, then yeah I missed it.

[Lathum]

Basically I think it's best to slow the game down so when we decide to lynch, we can make a more informed decision. By doing that, we increase our chances of putting together a winning soccer team and thus prevent the wolves from killing players as they are forced to penalize us points instead of killing villagers. At that later point, we can start lynching, but with superior odds (if there are 4 wolves for example, 4 out of 11 chance instead of 4 out of 14 chance) and more information about player skills. All things being equal, why would we kill our superstar goalie? How do you know today's lynch won't kill that person?

.

FYI, I don't advocate this unless we get a totally kickass match result. My argument is for a D1 no lynch and then see what we learn from the match before deciding on a further course.

so why did your story change?

Yesterday you say 4/11, or 15 total players, which means 4 players eliminated by night kill.

Now you are saying no lynch day 1 and lets see what happens?

[Telle]

Votes as of posts #223:

5 - no lynch - KWhit (103), JAG (131), MartinD (133), DaddyTorgo (182), PurdueBrad (185)
5 - MartinD - Mia Ow (142), Schmidty (154), Telle (183), claphamsa (192), The Jackal (207)
4 - claphamsa - Lathum (153), LSG (156), Darth (159), lerriuqs (191)

Yet to vote: J23, Chief Rum, Alan T, GoldenEagle, Danny

[Passacaglia]

Here's the vote count I have:


Mia Ow 0 --
No Lynch 5 -- Kwhit (103) JAG (131) MartinD (133) DaddyTorgo (182) PurdueBrad (185)
MartinD 5 -- Mia Ow (142) Schmidty (154) Telle (183) claphamsa (192) The Jackal (207)
claphamsa 4 -- Lathum (153) LoneStarGirl (156) Darth Vilus (159) lerriuqs (191)

[JAG]

No voting record available, they can begin picking off known good players before they become effective in too many games. They'd begin way ahead. As always, the argument for no lynch is very strong if you're a wolf...

I find that an amusing argument. If I were a wolf, I'd be arguing to kill off as many people as possible, even if it meant lynching wolves (especially if they're found to be superstar players), because it reduces the odds of fielding a winning team.

[claphamsa]

I actually agree with Lerrigus for a different reason, with no lynches we get no closer to finding who wolves are, except for the random chance of a seer scan! when it gets down to it, more wolves are lynched becasue of voting patterns than by seer scans. Ideally you want to combine them... but it is what it is.

[JAG]

so why did your story change?

Yesterday you say 4/11, or 15 total players, which means 4 players eliminated by night kill.

Now you are saying no lynch day 1 and lets see what happens?

First, that's actually 3 players eliminated by NK because KWhit doesn't count in the winning conditions so I am working with a pool of 18 players. Second, my story changed because I thought the idea through further. If we can't figure out where anyone is supposed to go D1 and/or ratings are low across the board instead of being average across the board, we would deduce that we won't be able to put together a winning team soon enough and then we are forced to win by lynching all the wolves as per a regular WW game with the game just being a sideshow instead of a strong tool for winning and forcing the wolves' hands.

[claphamsa]

ok, im off! dont lynch me, but its better to lynch me than no one!

[GoldenEagle]

can we get a vote count?

Clap, mate, what is up with your vote for Mia Ow?

[Lathum]

First, that's actually 3 players eliminated by NK because KWhit doesn't count in the winning conditions so I am working with a pool of 18 players. Second, my story changed because I thought the idea through further. If we can't figure out where anyone is supposed to go D1 and/or ratings are low across the board instead of being average across the board, we would deduce that we won't be able to put together a winning team soon enough and then we are forced to win by lynching all the wolves as per a regular WW game with the game just being a sideshow instead of a strong tool for winning and forcing the wolves' hands.

so lets say we lose today, do we lynch tomorrow?

[The Jackal]

Clap, mate, what is up with your vote for Mia Ow?

He switched to Martin for self-preservation earlier today

[GoldenEagle]

Look, we can win all of our games if you wankers just give me the ball. It is really that simple. Give the ball to me, watch me score. After I score 3 or 4 goals, I will drop back and defend. I might even play keeper for a few minutes, yea?

I think we need to cut some of the deadwood around here. Look, these mates are just sitting on our squad eating wages, which could be used to pay me more money.

Yea?

[GoldenEagle]

He switched to Martin for self-preservation earlier today

Right, mate. But that was a bit of an odd vote. The player is brand new to the game (which I know, she could still be on of the wolves) but it seems like an odd little vote.

Was his plan all along to create some distance between himself and Mia Ow? I just think it was odd time to speak up in the locker room.

[Darth Vilus]

If GEs skill level is low I'm gonna laugh my ass off. Hard :lol:

[lerriuqs]

I find that an amusing argument. If I were a wolf, I'd be arguing to kill off as many people as possible, even if it meant lynching wolves (especially if they're found to be superstar players), because it reduces the odds of fielding a winning team.

But to hide as a wolf you don't want a lynch on Day 1 cause you have confusion and a lack of a real voting record. The early chances of 1 point or no points for the team is going to be higher than 3 points so why bother worrying about it? There'll be plenty of time for them to kill off the main players, IMO. This belief that we'll just start winning and clean up based on points is misplaced IMO.

[Darth Vilus]

Right, mate. But that was a bit of an odd vote. The player is brand new to the game (which I know, she could still be on of the wolves) but it seems like an odd little vote.

Was his plan all along to create some distance between himself and Mia Ow? I just think it was odd time to speak up in the locker room.

That's the main reason I voted Clap. Even if he is a player weird and off-thewall votes like that are going to throw everyone off.

[GoldenEagle]

If GEs skill level is low I'm gonna laugh my ass off. Hard :lol:

Look mate, it that is the case, its just the scouts are simply wrong. The gaffer knows how much quality I possess. I have already been linked to several clubs. I can also ensure my agent did not start these rumors, like some of my peers have suggested.

[Darth Vilus]

we'll see

[Lathum]

Darth Vilus= thread killer

[Chief Rum]

I can't stand this vote.

There is always someone willing to do a run on clap because he isn't the typical player. It's annoying. He's almost always a villager in these situations, so we're basically doing a number on ourselves by always going after him. So I would lean for the alternative, because voting clap is like voting for no one, if he's a wolf, hey, you knew what you were doing, if he's not, hey, it's clap. What a cop out. I guess that's the result when people don't want to put any thought into it.

But why is Martin the other candidate? Here's a guy who lives overseas, so he can't even be around to defend himself, and he's the other candidate. Why?

I believe we should lynch someone, because, in the end, I think achieving the 10 points is going to be very hard, with player attrition and the activities of the wolves. So we should stick with basic werewolf, and a no lynch doesn't make sense in basic werewolf.

But then you get a vote like this, where, for God knows what reason why, we have two candidates that probably shouldn't be candidates. Yes, I know Day One votes are a crapshoot, but do we always have to vote for "the weird guy" and "the guy who won't be around"?

Although I side with them on the "lynch"/"no lynch" thing, I did not like the illogical arguments used at points by Lathum (hyperbole) and lerriuqs (fearmongering), so I am going to vote for one of them. I refuse to accept the village vote, because I don't think people are using anything rational to pick out Martin and clap over others.

I know if I vote Lathum, he'll blow his top, so I'll vote lerriuqs. Feel free to follow me if you want.

VOTE LERRIUQS

[JAG]

This belief that we'll just start winning and clean up based on points is misplaced IMO.

How do you know this?

[KWhit]

I know if I vote Lathum, he'll blow his top...

What a terrible reason not to vote for someone.

[GoldenEagle]

Chief, mate, I tend to agree with you. Clap was probably just trying to get some sort of conversation going. While he is not the most intelligent lad on the team (that would be me, in my opinion), I don't suspect he is a wolf. Who knows, perhaps in his first game, someone voted from him on the first day with no explanation. So to welcome a new player to the game, he votes for that person on day 1. Karma, maybe.

So I am going to hop on your train for now. But I assume you will pass the ball in tonight's game, yea?

VOTE LERRIUQS

[Chief Rum]

What a terrible reason not to vote for someone.

If there was a really good reason to vote for him, this would not stop me. When I'm picking out of a hat, basically, though, I am within my rights to just not want to deal with it.

[lerriuqs]

I can't stand this vote.

There is always someone willing to do a run on clap because he isn't the typical player. It's annoying. He's almost always a villager in these situations, so we're basically doing a number on ourselves by always going after him. So I would lean for the alternative, because voting clap is like voting for no one, if he's a wolf, hey, you knew what you were doing, if he's not, hey, it's clap. What a cop out. I guess that's the result when people don't want to put any thought into it.

But why is Martin the other candidate? Here's a guy who lives overseas, so he can't even be around to defend himself, and he's the other candidate. Why?

I believe we should lynch someone, because, in the end, I think achieving the 10 points is going to be very hard, with player attrition and the activities of the wolves. So we should stick with basic werewolf, and a no lynch doesn't make sense in basic werewolf.

But then you get a vote like this, where, for God knows what reason why, we have two candidates that probably shouldn't be candidates. Yes, I know Day One votes are a crapshoot, but do we always have to vote for "the weird guy" and "the guy who won't be around"?

Although I side with them on the "lynch"/"no lynch" thing, I did not like the illogical arguments used at points by Lathum (hyperbole) and lerriuqs (fearmongering), so I am going to vote for one of them. I refuse to accept the village vote, because I don't think people are using anything rational to pick out Martin and clap over others.

I know if I vote Lathum, he'll blow his top, so I'll vote lerriuqs. Feel free to follow me if you want.

VOTE LERRIUQS

I was with you right up to the two comments in bold...Funny that you shrug off the other votes as irrational and then make one of your own.

Also considering you said the exact same thing about a no lynch as Lathum and myself - how can you dismiss our arguments at illogical??

As for clap, I think he got lots of traction this time because the no lynch has ramped up so quickly. Also he was just a wolf last game and didn't get voted out early so I don't buy the "don't vote for clap" speech. We needed a viable option or two to the no lynch. We have that in place and you throw out a fourth option less than two hours before deadline? How is that going against the no lynch at all??

[JAG]

so lets say we lose today, do we lynch tomorrow?

It depends, but the answer is probably yes. If we lose and we have horrible ratings all over the place, I would definitely side with lynching tomorrow and just treat the soccer game as a sideshow because I would lack confidence in us being able to solve it in time. If we lose or tie but have good ratings in say 4 or more places, and the average rating seems to be around 50ish, I would be more inclined to go no lynch again.

[lerriuqs]

How do you know this?

What part of IMO has you confused?

[Lathum]

What a terrible reason not to vote for someone.

It really is and why would I blow my top over a random day 1 vote? Would I defend myself, certainly, but to say I would blow my top is borderline insulting.

Just don't duke it to me, then I would blow my top.

And I don't buy your poor old clap argument. He voted for a first time player for no reason, and left it there for a day, it wasn't just some vote/ unvote joke. Seems like a good place for a wolf to hide a vote on a player they know has zero chance of being eliminated.