OT: A Song of Ice and Fire Series (spoilers inside)

[MrBug708]

MORE TALK ABOUT DANY PLZ K THNX!!!!

Her bewbs are funny and her nips point in different directions

[ISiddiqui]

But the white walker and the kid? Come on, the beauty of this series is that dragons aside, all the magic happens off-screen, so it's left to your imagination. Blech.

Eh... the magic with R'hillor (Lord of Light) happens 'on screen', so to speak. And, of course, what happens to Bran in Dance with Dragons. So I'm not entirely sure how valid that concern is.

[NobodyHere]

MORE TALK ABOUT DANY PLZ K THNX!!!!

I bet Dany would make a great dominatrix :p.

[Alan T]

I thought last night's episode was ok. Not the best yet as others are saying. It felt to me just as a way to connect the dots for non-book readers as well as provide for book readers the understanding of where the show was diverging from the books in a few story lines.

[ISiddiqui]

Oh apparently, the dude that transforms Craster's son was the Night's King (or at least an HBO staffer thought so):

'Game of Thrones' Season 4 'Oathkeeper' synopsis confirms major White Walker theory - Zap2it (http://www.zap2it.com/blogs/game_of_thrones_season_4_oathkeeper_synopsis_confirms_major_white_walker_theory-2014-04)

The crowned White Walker at the end of the episode that turns one of Craster's sons into a White Walker is the Night's King, according to the official HBO synopsis of the episode. That's pretty game-changing news for the TV series, as it is officially giving answers and exposition not in the George R.R. Martin "A Song of Ice and Fire" novels.

Update: HBO seems to have altered its posted synopsis and taken out the mention of the Night's King. Here is a screenshot of the original posting, which was posted to Reddit.

[ISiddiqui]

So, amusingly I was reading comments from people who didn't read the books and I saw a bunch of "Dany's story is boring now". They have NO idea! ;)

[Grover]

So, amusingly I was reading comments from people who didn't read the books and I saw a bunch of "Dany's story is boring now". They have NO idea! ;)

Wait until they meet all the Hizdahrs, whoooo

[JPhillips]

Szyslak Mo Szyslak is my favorite.

[Vince, Pt. II]

Not that I wanted the story to stray from the books, but it was nice to be sitting on the edge of my seat wondering what was going to happen next

This is actually a good point, and despite my complaints it was a new thing to be thinking "huh, what's this now?"

[Vince, Pt. II]

Eh... the magic with R'hillor (Lord of Light) happens 'on screen', so to speak. And, of course, what happens to Bran in Dance with Dragons. So I'm not entirely sure how valid that concern is.

Also a good point, I forgot about R'hllor, and even the warg thing with Bran etc.

The point still stands that the white walkers have been shrouded in tons of mystery and hearsay, and the show is stripping a little of that away.

[Coffee Warlord]

Yeah, just realized...90% of that episode basically dealt with the painful storylines.

Brienne, Bran, the start of Dany is Boring. Hell, all they needed to do is add Theon and the pain would be complete.

[ISiddiqui]

That much is true. Though it is a different medium and if you don't show the Others, the show watchers may be like "WTF, where did they come from", even though it was blatant foreshadowing for a while.

[cschex]

Am I the only one excited about Brienne + Pod on the show? I admit it's ponderous in the books but I really enjoy both show characters and can see a lot of potential

[Landshark44]

why do they need baby white-walkers....? they can't help much in a fight..


and do they grow up if they are dead? in the books they were inferred to be some kind of sacrifice, but..... what good do they serve the bad guys?

[ISiddiqui]

I think they are supposed to grow up. Maybe not necessarily 'dead' as much as magically animated ;).

[flere-imsaho]

Well, if you believe something like this (http://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/23p48r/the_true_nature_and_purpose_of_the_others_and_the/), the White Walkers are simply some sort of other race, and thus the "animation" or "conversion" of humans is merely one of the ways (or the way) they continue to exist.

[PilotMan]

A nice little primer if you are like me and some of this stuff has gotten muddled over the past few years.

“Well actually, in the books…â€� 15 differences from text to TV in Game Of Thrones · Inventory · The A.V. Club (http://www.avclub.com/article/well-actually-books-15-differences-text-tv-game-th-203713)

[PilotMan]

This is pretty cool. It contains potential spoilers for the books however, but even that makes the whole story more exciting.

This Accidental Game Of Thrones Spoiler Just. Changed. Everything. (http://io9.com/this-accidental-game-of-thrones-spoiler-just-changed-1568796246)

[ISiddiqui]

And if this legend is true, it potentially means a lot of the legends of the world of Westeros are true, which could have major implications down the line

Um... duh? ;) I think its been fairly well established that legends and prophecies in Westeros are based on truth and will occur in some form of another. After all, we've actually met the Children of the Forest.

[DaddyTorgo]

Yeah - I don't necessarily know that this "changes everything forever" or is going to take the tv show in a drastically different direction than the books.

I think it's mostly just book-geeks (which I am) overreacting (which I am not) to demonstrate their geek-cred.

[Coffee Warlord]

"Changes everything forever" is way way *way* over the top. At most, it's an, "oh, that's interesting." At most.

[DaddyTorgo]

"Changes everything forever" is way way *way* over the top. At most, it's an, "oh, that's interesting." At most.

Totally agree to be clear - was cribbing the "changes everything" from the title of that post, not my own opinion.

[Coffee Warlord]

Didn't think so.

Of course, I'm too tired to even try to read into anything, correctly or incorrectly. 9 day old kid will do that. :)

[saldana]

Didn't think so.

Of course, I'm too tired to even try to read into anything, correctly or incorrectly. 9 day old kid will do that. :)

you should probably have some coffee...it might help:D :D

congrats, btw!!!

[DaddyTorgo]

Of course, I'm too tired to even try to read into anything, correctly or incorrectly. 9 day old kid will do that. :)


:party:

[Breeze]

:party:

Keep it down...you'll wake the baby...

[flere-imsaho]

You wake the baby, you take the baby.

[flere-imsaho]

"Changes everything forever" is way way *way* over the top. At most, it's an, "oh, that's interesting." At most.

Yeah, I agree.

The episode confirmed two things that haven't been confirmed in the books, but could certainly be assumed:

1. The Others have a leader.
2. The Others increase their numbers by stealing and then converting babies.

On #1, it's hard to imagine people thinking the Others didn't have some sort of leader and/or hierarchy. They're not exactly zombies in that they've shown ample evidence of rational thought.

On #2, these are, again, rational beings. What do people think they had been doing with the babies? Eating them? One could have assumed a lot of things, but this conversion thing makes plenty of sense.

[flere-imsaho]

http://i.imgur.com/e2j7V6R.jpg

On the other hand, she did release 7 books in less than 10 years.

[Chief Rum]

http://i.imgur.com/e2j7V6R.jpg

On the other hand, she did release 7 books in less than 10 years.

She wrote the Battle of Hogwarts scene in early 1998?

Wasn't the 7th book released in 2007 or so? Maybe even later, 2008? So they had that one in the can some 8-10 years?

She's prolific. This only makes me more annoyed at Martin and his exhaustive writing process.

[NobodyHere]

Word count in Harry Potter series, approx 155k/book

For Game of Thrones? Approx 354k/book

[DaddyTorgo]

Haha - that's hilarious!!!

[DanGarion]

So now is this thread dead with no discussion about the current episode...?

[DaddyTorgo]

Old Nan FTW

[DaddyTorgo]

So now is this thread dead with no discussion about the current episode...?

We can discuss the current episode, by all means.

This is book+tv show discussion.

I've just been bonkers busy at work this week.

[DanGarion]

I'm getting confused what thread is what now...

[NobodyHere]

I've stopped watching because I don't have a good way to watch HBO and all the scenes I've wanted to see this season are at the very beginning and at the very end.

[DaddyTorgo]

I know people were saying they thought it was weak and all. I didn't think it was bad.

1. Scheming Cersei being nice to everyone...cool. Needed more Oberyn though!!
2. Sansa - I'm loving her arc in the TV show, it took me so long to warm up to her in the books, the fact that it seems to be moving faster as an arc in the TV show is great.
3. Arya & Hound - HILARIOUS STILL
4. Pod & Brienne - Kinda meh.
5. Night's Watch - I didn't dig the excuse of "there are hounds in there" for not going to the one building, it didn't make sense logically. And I totally called the whole "they're not going to meet, they'll end up basically passing in the night" aspect of it. Summer and Ghost were penned up together though right? So how did one get free without the other? Or if someone from the NW set them free how come they didn't tell Jon?

[Chief Rum]

5. Night's Watch - I didn't dig the excuse of "there are hounds in there" for not going to the one building, it didn't make sense logically. And I totally called the whole "they're not going to meet, they'll end up basically passing in the night" aspect of it. Summer and Ghost were penned up together though right? So how did one get free without the other? Or if someone from the NW set them free how come they didn't tell Jon?

Hodor freed Summer at Bran's command, and presumeably, freed Ghost as well. It was after Bran told Hodor to do this that we saw Ghost chase down the last oathbreaking Naight's Watch and then go to Jon. I actually thought that was pretty clear.

[Ronnie Dobbs3]

She wrote the Battle of Hogwarts scene in early 1998?

It takes place in early 1998.

[Chief Rum]

It takes place in early 1998.

The book content actually had a specific year attached to it? I didn't recall that. I just figured it was "present time".

[Ronnie Dobbs3]

Never read them, but the Potter wiki for the Battle says May 2, 1998.

[DaddyTorgo]

Hodor freed Summer at Bran's command, and presumeably, freed Ghost as well. It was after Bran told Hodor to do this that we saw Ghost chase down the last oathbreaking Naight's Watch and then go to Jon. I actually thought that was pretty clear.

Oh yeah, that's right. I forgot.

[flere-imsaho]

For Game of Thrones? Approx 354k/book

Yeah, but how much of that is Mereen?

[flere-imsaho]

5. Night's Watch - I didn't dig the excuse of "there are hounds in there" for not going to the one building, it didn't make sense logically.

I think it was "not to go by the building", based on the idea that if the hounds (actually wolves) smelled the men, they'd give them away by barking and the sneak attack wouldn't be so sneaky.

[JAG]

So now is this thread dead with no discussion about the current episode...?

What is dead may never die, but rises again harder and stronger.

This thread won't go away until Martin finishes the series, so another 5-8 years? Assuming he's still in good health, he might keep writing stories like the Dunk and Egg stuff too.

[NobodyHere]

Yeah, but how much of that is Mereen?

Well SoS has 6 Dany Chapters and DoD has 10 Dany chapters. Of course there's a couple Martell DoD chapters as well right?

[Ronnie Dobbs3]

The books are at least 15% food description too.

[NobodyHere]

The books are at least 15% food description too.

Well that's less than the Hannibal Lecter books right?

[Vince, Pt. II]

I think it was "not to go by the building", based on the idea that if the hounds (actually wolves) smelled the men, they'd give them away by barking and the sneak attack wouldn't be so sneaky.

This.

[BishopMVP]

Well that's less than the Hannibal Lecter books right?Or the guy who used to write the Redwall series.

[NobodyHere]

Or the guy who used to write the Redwall series.

RIP Brian Jacques

I loved those books

[Vince, Pt. II]

Yeah, the Redwall series probably has some cookbooks beat for amount of food described.

[NobodyHere]

Or just get the cookbook
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Z4M1K1YWL._SX258_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg


Or, sticking to the thread subject, get this cookbook!

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51io0QNtvmL._SX258_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg

[bronconick]

Well, Wyman Manderly had ..kinds of food in ASOIAF.

[ISiddiqui]

So I've heard some folks get really pissed about the fact that Lysa's revelation that she killed Jon happened now rather than during the "Only Cat" scene. I do think it would have been much more powerful then, but I don't think it entirely ruins that scene.

[saldana]

So I've heard some folks get really pissed about the fact that Lysa's revelation that she killed Jon happened now rather than during the "Only Cat" scene. I do think it would have been much more powerful then, but I don't think it entirely ruins that scene.

i couldnt remember if she every made this admission in the books...was wondering if it was a HBO created thing (like bran being captured)

[Alan T]

i couldnt remember if she every made this admission in the books...was wondering if it was a HBO created thing (like bran being captured)


Same here. My wife looked at me during that scene and I told her that I didn't remember that at all.

[MrBug708]

Me too. I must have totally missed that in books

[Vince, Pt. II]

Definitely happened in the books.

[Ronnie Dobbs3]

Reddit full explanation (http://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/1g1u9t/spoiler_all_explain_like_im_five_the_death_of_jon/)

Obviously book spoilers abound.

[ISiddiqui]

Definitely happened in the books.

Yep... right before Lysa was shoved through the Moon Door by Littlefinger.

[flere-imsaho]

Agree with this: How Game of Thrones the Show Is Telling a Better Story than the Books | Vanity Fair (http://www.vanityfair.com/vf-hollywood/game-of-thrones-show-better-than-books)

Quote:

As a Game of Thrones book reader, I’m often accused of being a purist. And I must admit that, in the past, I’ve believed that the HBO show is at its best when it sticks closely to the books.

...

But as much as I admire George R.R. Martin’s saga, turns of phrase, and dramatic highs, as we move forward in the series, it’s no longer possible to ignore the flaws in his books. Impossible for us to ignore, and impossible for the show to ignore. So what we’ve seen, increasingly, is a show going off-book. That is to say, almost every scene in this episode that wasn’t Tyrion’s trial? That was off-book. Yara going to rescue her brother Theon? Davos pleading Stannis’s case? Off-book. The small council meeting with the comedy stylings of Mace Tyrell? Off-book. That fantastic conversation between Varys and Oberyn? Off-book. Even Hizdahr’s speech to Dany about reclaiming the body of his father was off-book. And as much as the book purist in me wants to revolt, I can’t deny that what the show is doing here is very smart. In fact, they might be telling a better story than the books.

There's more.


But anyway, up until this point the changes have seemed relatively minor, and mainly in the service of a) cutting down on the number of characters or b) getting rid of stuff that wouldn't work on TV. But with the most recent episode we're seeing changes that are more significant. The Yarra / Asha storyline will now develop quite differently, and probably Theon as well, somewhat. Will Stannis end up doing his ill-fated march through the snow with the Northmen? Will Stannis even end up at the wall (well yes, probably).

Yes, there's still Cersei's shame, Margaery's imprisonment, episodes with the Sand Snakes in Dorne (maybe?), the Connington stuff, Mereen and Arya, etc....

But if you think about what's in the books, and the speed at which things are going, is there enough for more than one more season before they run out of book material (unless they slow way down)?

I suspect next season sees both Tyrion & Arya overseas, Dany faffing about more in Mereen, some stuff in Dorne to keep the sex on the screen, the only real martial stuff happening with Stannis both at the wall and campaigning in the north and Bran making it underground (though I could definitely see that happening this season, and if it does, then we almost certainly see stuff from Bran next season that is in no current book).

If all that goes that way, then, what ends up happening:

1. The next book gets released before Season 6 and all is cool.
2. The next book is further delayed so a Season 6 gets further delayed.
3. The series goes past the books.

I still think the series will end with the TV show first, then the books, and Martin will proclaim some sort of new content "paradigm". Which it will be, of course, though it was not intended to be, and certainly is no credit to him.

I also think it's interesting that as the series has headed into the books where the bloat really started, they've streamlined more-and-more.

Anyway, that's your rampant speculation for the day. :D

[ISiddiqui]

I don't think I agree with the article at all. I think the author misses why people fell in love with the books. It's not for the same reasons people watch the show - at least not specifically. Yes, book readers and show watchers both enjoy the political wheeling dealing in a fantasy realm, but the book readers love the backstory, the history, the lore. Yes, Feast for Crows and Dance with Dragons slowed down the story, but Feast for Crows also introduced Dorne and went deeper into the Iron Islands.

I mean, I'm reading the Tales of Dunk & Egg, which are short stories in other compilations because I want to know more of the background of Westeros (and I now somewhat know the lineage of the Mad King Aerys II - at least up to Daeron II, his great-great-grandfather, who survived the Blackfyre Rebellion, which btw, also included Bloodraven - who was the Hand of the King of Daeron, even though he was a Great Bastard as well.) Yes, some of us are as dorky as the Lord of the Rings fans who read the Silmarillion over and over again - but that's what we love about the books, the rich world it has created.

I really think that the author's ideas of how the show makes the watchers invested in Oberyn and Davos seems to infer that book readers weren't really invested in Oberyn or Davos, to which I would say... WTF?!!!

Also, I do think that the shows invention of plots are there because they know that they can't fill all of the plots from Feast and Dance in 1 season. At least in a few instances it will take a few seasons and therefore, they'll need to do "fill in" add ons.

[sabotai]

But as much as I admire George R.R. Martin’s saga, turns of phrase, and dramatic highs, as we move forward in the series, it’s no longer possible to ignore the flaws in his books. Impossible for us to ignore, and impossible for the show to ignore. So what we’ve seen, increasingly, is a show going off-book. That is to say, almost every scene in this episode that wasn’t Tyrion’s trial? That was off-book. Yara going to rescue her brother Theon? Davos pleading Stannis’s case? Off-book. The small council meeting with the comedy stylings of Mace Tyrell? Off-book. That fantastic conversation between Varys and Oberyn? Off-book. Even Hizdahr’s speech to Dany about reclaiming the body of his father was off-book. And as much as the book purist in me wants to revolt, I can’t deny that what the show is doing here is very smart. In fact, they might be telling a better story than the books.

This is funny considering how many of the non-book readers mentioned in the other thread that they were bored with the episode until the trial scene(s).

[BishopMVP]

This is funny considering how many of the non-book readers mentioned in the other thread that they were bored with the episode until the trial scene(s).I absolutely loved that episode because it featured so much great dialogue from characters I love from the books. Oberyn has come off great on screen, but I had the sense most show viewers disliked Davos (and Salladhor Saan), and his speech might've been my favorite part of the episode or even season.

It's not telling a "better story" but rather expanding on one - knowing all the background from the books is the key to enjoying that scene as much.

[ISiddiqui]

This is hilarious:

George R. R. Martin Explains Why He Writes Game of Thrones in DOS (http://gizmodo.com/george-r-r-martin-explains-why-he-writes-game-of-thro-1576130349)

GRRM writes Song of Ice and Fire on a DOS machine!

[DaddyTorgo]

Anybody want to see a couple pages of the World of Ice & Fire?

Seemingly excerpted at random, so they don't string together into a coherent narrative necessarily, but they'll give you an idea of what it'll be like...

[DanGarion]

<iframe width="853" height="480" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/jvHK6blDJaQ" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[MrBug708]

I've been wondering this for a while, but who is Lord Paramount of the Stormlands? I know in spirit, it should be Stannis, but I'm assuming it's some lesser Lord who is pledged to the Iron Throne?

[Ronnie Dobbs3]

I don't believe it has been named since the war started. Perhaps it is the carrot to have someone take Storm's End.

[DaddyTorgo]

I don't believe it has been named since the war started.

Right. Wiki says Robert -> Renly -> Stannis.

[DaddyTorgo]

Oh, and FYI

Interesting post on Lena Hadley's Instagram last month (SFW, concerning a potential character).

http://instagram.com/p/nEeNM0PA3L/

[MrBug708]

I'm assuming that, as long as Stannis doesn't die, he'll likely end up back in the Stormlands? Unless Gendry ends up there first?

[Ronnie Dobbs3]

Right. Wiki says Robert -> Renly -> Stannis.

Is this accurate? I thought Stannis got passed over by Robert and it went to Renly. Renly died, and no one has since been named?

I mean I know Stannis has the castle, but we're talking official title.

[JPhillips]

Yeah, I'm not sure Stannis would use the title as he considers himself the King.

[ISiddiqui]

I'm assuming that, as long as Stannis doesn't die, he'll likely end up back in the Stormlands? Unless Gendry ends up there first?

If he doesn't win the whole thing ;) (Oh, the howling that would result... and I'd love it).

[MrBug708]

Well he hasn't been conquered yer so I'm assuming if he doesn't win the throne, he is either dead or bends the knee. If a Targ wins the throne, they probably want Dragonstone back. The Baratheon's, as I'm sure all of the houses, probably won't lose their Lord Paramount status. At least from where I'm sitting here

[ISiddiqui]

Have we considered that since Stannis's great grandfather was Aegon V Targaryen (why Robert got the throne after the rebellion, he was closest in line to the Targaryens once you take away Viserys and Daenerys), he could potentially be the 3rd dragon?

[DaddyTorgo]

Yeah, I'm not sure Stannis would use the title as he considers himself the King.

He wouldn't use it, but it passes back to him. It's not like it just sits there vacant.

[Coffee Warlord]

I'm guessing for now it's something like this.

Technically speaking, Stannis is the current Lord Paramount of the Stormlands still.

From the Crown's point of view, the current titleholder is in rebellion. As it's still an active conflict (well, active for Martin's standards these days), there's no reason/basis to grant the disputed titles to someone else. It maintains the possibility (however unlikely), that Stannis could surrender and keep his lands/titles.

Long story short, there's no political reason to transfer the title until the "rebellion" is settled. The North's title wasn't moved until that war was basically settled, with the claimants very dead.

[flere-imsaho]

Must read, especially if you like speculation of the sort of "how are they going to fit book content into the end of this season and the upcoming season?"

http://io9.com/whats-in-store-for-your-favorite-game-of-thrones-charac-1582878876/all

[ISiddiqui]

So, from what I understand, they changed Sansa's (and LF's) story. Sansa reveals herself, seemingly like she's finally grasped the political stuff that LF was trying to teach her - though it seems like she got that exceedingly quickly.

I'm not sure I like the change. I enjoyed LF's scheming with Lyn Cobray and to try to marry off "Alayne" to Harrold Hardyng and Sansa gradually figuring out what LF was trying to do - kind of a political awakening.

[flere-imsaho]

I'm betting Sansa + Young Griff before it's all over. Maybe Varys makes this happen by getting one over on his "auld enemy" LF when the latter is brought low by his one "irrationality", that being his infatuation for Cat/Sansa.

Taken in that context all the Harrold stuff is irrelevant filler from the books.

[ISiddiqui]

If that's the way it works out ;).

In any case, Hardyng allows Sansa to claim the Vale for herself and Winterfell (though that claim would be in dispute if Davos finds Rickon in Skagos). I mean there is nothing saying that after the marriage, Hardyng finds himself having an unfortunate accident either.

And Aegon is going to find Arienne ready and willing to wed him before he runs into Sansa.

Though it'd be utterly hilarious if in the end it ends up being Sansa and Tyrion again ;).

[Vince, Pt. II]

I don't like the show change because it forces Littlefinger's hand and outs him to the Lannisters before they have actually fallen. This doesn't seem to play well with his character at all, as someone who is extremely careful and plays the game well.

[NobodyHere]

Has Sansa's and Tyrion's marriage ever officially been annulled? Could that be a factor later on?

[Coffee Warlord]

It was never consumated. They mentioned in the books a few times that implied it was never "official".

[NobodyHere]

oic

[ISiddiqui]

Yeah, I think they can get out of it as both Sansa and Tyrion will indicate lack of consummation (of course, Tyrion is in Essos so can't be asked but I doubt that will much of a stumbling block). I am guessing that Cersei may try to advance the idea that the marriage was consummated, but no one will believe her (esp not after her Walk of Shame).

[Barkeep49]

The news yesterday that Martin needs (perhaps) an 8th book was not encouraging. It feels more and more that HBO is going to have the only complete telling of the story when all is said and done.

[Chief Rum]

The news yesterday that Martin needs (perhaps) an 8th book was not encouraging. It feels more and more that HBO is going to have the only complete telling of the story when all is said and done.

To be fair, late last week, his publisher said Winds of Winter was coming "soon", which is a good deal faster than expected, based on past performance. I think the presence of the HBO show is pushing Martin abit (finally).

[DaddyTorgo]

To be fair, late last week, his publisher said Winds of Winter was coming "soon", which is a good deal faster than expected, based on past performance. I think the presence of the HBO show is pushing Martin abit (finally).

I dunno - I read that article by his publisher and soon was basically a BS word. Summarizing, from what I remember, she said basically: "It's coming soon. I haven't seen anymore of it to proof in a long time, but it's coming soon."

Which tells me nothing. Actually, edit: it tells me it's farther away then we think, or else she'd have significantly more of it edited and ready to go by now. Or at least would have freaking seen it.

[ISiddiqui]

The news yesterday that Martin needs (perhaps) an 8th book was not encouraging. It feels more and more that HBO is going to have the only complete telling of the story when all is said and done.

It was basically rumor nonsense. His publisher was asked if it'd go more than 7 books and she said, well they said Seven Books for Seven Kingdoms and then when going over the Worlds of Ice and Fire book, she noticed 8 kingdoms (which is false - the Riverlands were not a Kingdom but under the rulership of the Iron Islands at the time of Aegon's Conquest.

Here is her (the publisher's) interview:
George R.R. Martin’s book editor hints at eighth book in fantasy epic - Salon.com (http://www.salon.com/2014/06/03/george_r_r_martins_book_editor_hints_at_eighth_book_in_fantasy_epic/)

Here is Martin saying he is still planning on 7 books:
George R.R. Martin clarifies his publishing plan | Inside TV | EW.com (http://insidetv.ew.com/2014/06/03/george-r-r-martin-ice-and-fire-publishing-plan-game-of-thrones/)

[flere-imsaho]

Yeah, whatever. I'm sticking with my prediction that HBO finishes the story, some other writer does a novelization of the unwritten books (which, heck, could be way more than 7 because why not cash in), and GRRM proclaims GoT an exciting new paradigm in multi-media storytelling.

[ISiddiqui]

There is no way in Hell that GRRM allows another writer to finish his story (in book form). The only way that could happen is if Martin dies.

[flere-imsaho]

Well, I don't know GRRM personally, but I contend it's not outside the realm of possibility that he could eventually come around to the idea that someone else could ghost write significant sections of the remaining books that he could then "finish" and/or "edit". I say this because it has been clear for ages that he's suffering from considerable writer's block, due to many reasons. Having someone else do the heavy lifting that he then finishes off could be tempting.

And it's not without precedent, as in some cases that's what the screenwriters have been doing already, with what content has made it to the screen which is not in a written book. It's still a jump, but then again, I'm just speculating.

And then yes, another option is that this would happen if he were to lamentably pass before completing the books.

Which furthers my point, to be honest. Even if GRRM plan to finish all the books, if he thinks of his mortality at all, wouldn't he want some "control" should he shuffle off the mortal coil early? Specifically, pick the person who would finish the books? And if he does that, would it be a big step to maybe have that person help now, proactively?

Again, speculation, and probably not going to happen.

But if it does I'm going to quote this post and say "neener-neener." :D

[ISiddiqui]

Recall this was the guy who rejected movie offers for Song of Ice and Fire because they couldn't do it justice. He accepted HBO's offer because he felt that 10 eps a season actually could do it justice and even then the deal had to include bringing GRRM on for stuff (how many other authors become co-executive producers of an adaptation of their works).

He's not one that gives away control that easily.

[flere-imsaho]

I am not, at all, denying that you have a point, Imran. And your scenario is still the far more likely eventuality. Besides indulging in random speculation, what I think I'm doing is outlining the second-most-likely option at this point, which could become more likely if either a) the show really outstrips the books and/or b) Martin starts worrying about his mortality.



But on the same topic, given how fast the show has gone and how slow the books are to come, isn't it now more-or-less a certainty that they'll catch up in a season or two? This is an honest question, not a sarcastic one. I've read a lot of criticism & analysis, but no one's really laid out when and how they'd run out of written content. Anyone want to take a stab?

[ISiddiqui]

I have a feeling, based on some publisher comments, that Winds of Winter shows up by 2015 (and likely right before or right after Season 6 of the show).

There is more than enough material for 2 seasons from combining Feast for Crows and Dance with Dragons (the people who say nothing happens haven't particularly thought that through - also there are lots of minor storylines they could milk).

I think the issue becomes when the 7th book comes out. Winds of Winter will make it in time to make a few season out of it (I mean apparently three major battles were shuffled to early in Winds from Dance - because Dance was getting a bit big).

Though if Winds comes out soon, GRRM may be determined to work double (triple?) time to get Dream of Summer out by the start of Season 8 or 9, depending (maybe even the same day the season starts the book comes out?)

[bronconick]

I am not, at all, denying that you have a point, Imran. And your scenario is still the far more likely eventuality. Besides indulging in random speculation, what I think I'm doing is outlining the second-most-likely option at this point, which could become more likely if either a) the show really outstrips the books and/or b) Martin starts worrying about his mortality.



But on the same topic, given how fast the show has gone and how slow the books are to come, isn't it now more-or-less a certainty that they'll catch up in a season or two? This is an honest question, not a sarcastic one. I've read a lot of criticism & analysis, but no one's really laid out when and how they'd run out of written content. Anyone want to take a stab?

Honestly, i think the next season will finish with a spoiler of book 6 unless it's released before then.He has two battles that he pushed from 5 to 6, and HBO is going to want one of them to end next season.

[flere-imsaho]

Apparently they're casting for a "young Cersei" and thus may be showing, next season, some of the backstory to the current story. Since I can't remember exactly where I got that rumor in my reading, take that as a big grain of salt.

But in other news, there's this from Entertainment Weekly:


George R.R. Martin is on board with most of the changes the show has made to the story this season, although he misses the stuff that's been removed:

It's been a great season. Though by and large we are seeing more differences from the books and I've been predicting that from the beginning. There's a certain snowball effect of making changes and I think that will continue.

He also believes that the show will not be able to follow the producers' seven-season plan, given how much of the story is left to tell. And to deal with the fact that the show may run out of published material to adapt, Martin advocates capping the series with staggered feature films. This would give him more time and give the big final set pieces a larger budget. Of course, HBO sees itself as primarily a TV company and is on record as not endorsing this option. and Martin himself believes this is unlikely, because movies based on The Sopranos and Deadwood have never materialized.

And finally, Martin's still being firm-but-hedging about whether the series will be finished after book seven:

My plan is to finish in seven. But my original plan was to finish in three. I write the stories and they grow. I deal with certain things and sometimes I find myself not at the end of a story. My plan right now is still seven. But first I have to finish Book Six. Get back to me when I'm half-way through Book Seven and then maybe I'll tell you something more meaningful.

[Ronnie Dobbs3]

Apparently they're casting for a "young Cersei" and thus may be showing, next season, some of the backstory to the current story. Since I can't remember exactly where I got that rumor in my reading, take that as a big grain of salt.


http://winteriscoming.net/2014/06/05/characters-rumored-cast/

[ISiddiqui]

Well, it'd be good to have a young Cersei so they could show the fortune teller telling her that one of her brothers would kill her - I think that while she's been focusing on Tyrion doing it, it'll end up being Jamie.

[flere-imsaho]

There is more than enough material for 2 seasons from combining Feast for Crows and Dance with Dragons (the people who say nothing happens haven't particularly thought that through - also there are lots of minor storylines they could milk).

Thanks for taking a crack at it, and I think much of your speculation is probably spot on.

One thing that's interesting, however, is the idea of "milking" the minor storylines for extra content while they wait for Martin. You're absolutely right that there's plenty of content there if they do so, but also note that to do their avoidance of many of the minor storylines has, in general, been praised as keeping things more on track / interesting / compelling / etc.... So, say, wallowing around in Mereen politics or spending too much time on Quentyn, etc... could cause the show to lose interest. If they have to go that way, it'll be a tightrope to walk.

[ISiddiqui]

Honestly, i think the next season will finish with a spoiler of book 6 unless it's released before then.He has two battles that he pushed from 5 to 6, and HBO is going to want one of them to end next season.

You wouldn't need a battle as much as a big shock. I don't think Cersei being thrown in jail by the High Septon would necessarily qualify, but joining it with Aegon still being alive may.

[Ronnie Dobbs3]

Also, if a leaked audition tape for Obara Sand is accurate (but might be false dialogue merely for the audition)

Season 5 and possibly future book spoilers
Jaime Lannister has been sighted sneaking into Dorne. Could be fake, could be replacing Balon Swann, or (unlikely) could be future Jamie plot we've yet to read

http://winteriscoming.net/2014/06/04/game-of-thrones-audition-tape-leaks-hinting-at-season-five-changes/

[ISiddiqui]

Thanks for taking a crack at it, and I think much of your speculation is probably spot on.

One thing that's interesting, however, is the idea of "milking" the minor storylines for extra content while they wait for Martin. You're absolutely right that there's plenty of content there if they do so, but also note that to do their avoidance of many of the minor storylines has, in general, been praised as keeping things more on track / interesting / compelling / etc.... So, say, wallowing around in Mereen politics or spending too much time on Quentyn, etc... could cause the show to lose interest. If they have to go that way, it'll be a tightrope to walk.

I don't mean THOSE minor storylines ;). I mean the fun ones - like Tyrion & Penny and the Ser Robert Strong stuff (though I guess Ser Robert Strong could be a major player later on).

[Coffee Warlord]

I think you're the first person I've heard call the Tyrion/Penny stuff 'fun'.

[ISiddiqui]

It amused me.

I think people were more about the "let's get on with it" because they thought that Dance would end with the Second Battle of Meereen. In re-reading Dance, it is much more amusing because you realize that Battle will be in Winds.

[Ronnie Dobbs3]

A Reddit thread Dicussing how S5 will likely look, germane to this discussion. The top two comments by BryndenBFish in particular.

What changes would you make to A Feast for Crows and A Dance with Dragons while adapting them for the show? (http://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/27dfhd/what_changes_would_you_make_to_a_feast_for_crows/)

[GrantDawg]

I think you're the first person I've heard call the Tyrion/Penny stuff 'fun'.


You bringing this up makes me think I need to re-read the series, or at least the last two books. I've read through book three about 6 times, but I've only read book 4 twice, and book five once. I couldn't for the life of me think of who Penny was, then reading her wikki makes me realize I don't remember crap about the last book.

[ISiddiqui]

The last 3rd of Book 5 was pretty awesome. Unfortunately the first 2/3rds was like Book 1 exposition Hell most of the time.

[DaddyTorgo]

I'm rereading Feast and then Dance at the moment.

[flere-imsaho]

The last 3rd of Book 5 was pretty awesome. Unfortunately the first 2/3rds was like Book 1 exposition Hell most of the time.

I'd agree with this. It definitely started getting better again.

[Thomkal]

Want to be a character in the series and killed off in an horrible way? Got $20,000?

George RR Martin Wants To Write You Into Game Of Thrones, Kill You Off (http://www.cinemablend.com/pop/George-RR-Martin-Wants-Write-You-Game-Thrones-Kill-You-Off-64506.html)

One person at random who donates anything will get the chance to fly (with a friend) to New Mexico to have dinner with GRRM and ask any and all Game of Thrones questions.

[sabotai]

Some departures from the book in that last episode, although I did enjoy the Brienne vs. The Hound fight.

I'm on book 5 now (~10% into it) and I'm guessing they jumped deeper into book 5 with Bran's storyline there at the end?

[NobodyHere]

Any details for non-HBO watchers?

[ISiddiqui]

I heard there was no Lady Stoneheart. Leaving it for next season it seems (well it was at the end of A Feast for Crows).

[sabotai]

Nope, no Lady Stoneheart yet.

[RainMaker]

Are they definitely going to do Lady Stoneheart or is there a chance the character will be completely skipped over?

[ISiddiqui]

I can't imagine that GRRM wrote Lady Stoneheart in the series to have her do nothing important. And since she likely will do something important, they have to have her in the series, right?

[Chief Rum]

Wasn't Lady Stoneheart at the end of Storm of Swords? Her part at the end of A Feast For Crows was where she and the Brotherhood encountered Brienne if I recall correctly.

[flere-imsaho]

I personally suspect they're not going to do Lady Stoneheart. I think the character is one GRRM created because it was neat, but ended up not having a significant role for in the rest of his roadmap for the story. As in, she'll be a catalyst for certain actions, but not a major player. And if that's the case, there are plenty of other characters being used by the show that could provide that catalyst function.

[Coffee Warlord]

I'm suspecting the same, though they left it at a point where it'd be easy for Brienne to encounter her at the start of next season.

RIP Hound and Ayra Show. You were fun, though I'm ready for some House of Black and White.

[DaddyTorgo]

My thoughts on the last few weeks:

-Hound vs. Brienne was fun. Gives Brienne more of a badass vibe, which is why I suppose they made the change.

-Don't like what they changed with Sansa's story personally. I guess they're just trying to simplify it for viewers and all, but eh. She was looking very fetching in that dress backlit by the light though. And it definitely enables them to go faster on skeezy-Littlefinger I guess.

-I liked that we got basically a full episode at the Wall (or so it felt like). Appropriate gravitas.

-Byebye Tywin.

-Dragons!!

-Ummm - Children of the Forest & Bloodraven!! Fuck yeah!

[bronconick]

If Varys stays on the boat, I wonder if they're cutting that (clunky to me) revelation at the epilogue of book 5.

[Coffee Warlord]

Given his love for writing about boat travel, clearly Martin just used his influence to make the showmakers put even MORE people on boats. :)

[ISiddiqui]

Varys will just come back at some point. Besides, that scene is one of my favorite scenes in the enter books - it better not be cut!! :mad:

Anyways, my fears with the 9th episode and moving Stannis's salvation of the Night's Watch to the 10th episode are realized. Stannis's heroism gets lost in the Tywin dying, Arya leaving plots. Oh well. In the books, Stannis is an unyielding legalistic, but generally respectable guy. In the series, he seems like a villain.

[JPhillips]

Varys will just come back at some point. Besides, that scene is one of my favorite scenes in the enter books - it better not be cut!! :mad:

Anyways, my fears with the 9th episode and moving Stannis's salvation of the Night's Watch to the 10th episode are realized. Stannis's heroism gets lost in the Tywin dying, Arya leaving plots. Oh well. In the books, Stannis is an unyielding legalistic, but generally respectable guy. In the series, he seems like a villain.

Yeah, the way Stannis arrived after Mance had offered peace really changed the character of Stannis' attack. His army slaughtered some free folk rather than saved the realm.

[DaddyTorgo]

Yeah, the way Stannis arrived after Mance had offered peace really changed the character of Stannis' attack. His army slaughtered some free folk rather than saved the realm.

Good point.

[Ronnie Dobbs3]

I wonder if the portrayal of Stannis is because they know where this is headed; shading him appropriately for the heel turn? Though this would be complicated by the Battle of Winterfell I would think.

[ISiddiqui]

I wonder if the portrayal of Stannis is because they know where this is headed; shading him appropriately for the heel turn? Though this would be complicated by the Battle of Winterfell I would think.

True. Stannis vs. the Boltons... the way the show has Stannis portrayed now, a lot of the unsullied may just want both of them to die and thus not care. Perhaps Stannis does do something horrid in the end game and that view is shading his character now, but until then, you are just going to make viewers not care about what is going on up North.

[Vince, Pt. II]

...Oh well. In the books, Stannis is an unyielding legalistic, but generally respectable guy. In the series, he seems like a villain.

Do people just want to overlook the fact that he willfully slept with Melisandre and kept his wife around? He's kind of a dick, and not really all that great a ruler. He has a self imposed legalistic/moralistic code, but he ignores it when it suits him. He's personally overseen people who were loyal to him burned alive.

When you're trying to pick between the different rulers still alive in Westeros sure, he's not bad. But that's like saying that the guy who shoved grandma down the stairs for her welfare check is a pretty cool guy when you're looking at the inmates of San Quentin.

[flere-imsaho]

True. Stannis vs. the Boltons... the way the show has Stannis portrayed now, a lot of the unsullied may just want both of them to die and thus not care. Perhaps Stannis does do something horrid in the end game and that view is shading his character now, but until then, you are just going to make viewers not care about what is going on up North.

I'll bet they solve that problem (at least temporarily, so that Stannis-vs-Boltons isn't a case of "we hate them both, who cares") by playing up Stannis' support for Jon Snow as much as humanly possible.

Do people just want to overlook the fact that he willfully slept with Melisandre and kept his wife around? He's kind of a dick, and not really all that great a ruler. He has a self imposed legalistic/moralistic code, but he ignores it when it suits him. He's personally overseen people who were loyal to him burned alive.

Yeah, it was probably Renly who would have made the best king, as he understood the whole point of winning the people's trust/support as a key element of "kinging". Made him a good complement to Margaery (or vice versa) and it was a good bit of writing by GRRM to overturn that particular trope by killing him.


Edit: It may be overlooked (I don't know), but two of Renly's scenes served as great foils to point out how bad most of the leaders are. First his outburst at Robert about why war sucks, while they were hunting, and the later his 1:1 meeting with Stannis trying to explain to him why he'll be such a bad king (just before getting killed).

[flere-imsaho]

Commentary / speculation from a book reader on another board I frequent. I agree with much of this, though I still suspect Lady Stoneheart may not be in the show:

Alright, so the things I have to say about Ep 9, Ep 10, and Season 4 kind of blur together so bear with me.

King's Landing: The non-combat trial, buildup, combat trial, and Jaime's farewell to his brother all feel executed perfectly to me. Tyrion's finale could've stood some more buildup, but I'm rather good with the speed of it. I, for one, don't need or even particularly want the "where do whores go" existential drugery. So much of that thread going forward is internal. Not only did that make for slooooooow reading, conveying that to a visual medium would likely turn off viewers faster than these slight differences start ruffling the feathers of my fellow literati. Tyrion strangling Shae still made sense (from a plot perspective...it was kind of fast from a physical perspective), given he's already pushed to the brink and given up on his family and the Seven Kingdoms.

On a side note, Cersei's threat to Tywin makes Tywin's death just that much more painful. The look on his face after she tells him shows that Tywin realizes his "legacy" completely unravels itself soon. So Tywin leads his death scene with the typical commanding, dismissal tone he always gives his children. His backpedaling grows in desperation as he realizes Tyrion refuses to recognize his authority anymore.

Varys's departure from King's Landing with Tyrion works well in a lot of ways, since we're never certain what Varys went about doing after Tywin's death. This carries a few side-effects intended primarily for the show/illiterati, but could also prove a boon to literati: we get more screen-time with Varys, which is a great thing. I enjoy the performance for the acting's sake itself and I always feel even Varys's appearance tells me something important is happening...and if you're not seeing it, then it's happening in the shadows. We'll also see the connection between Varys and Magister Illyrio. The link to the east will help set things up so much better when "Aegon" and Danerys start to move west.

The Wall: The biggest complaints stem from how this got dragged out. This could have been due to which actors they had on contract and what needed to happen with them. I'm not sure. But between Stannis dragging his feet to get north and the bizarre storming of Craster's Keep, this thread felt completely off-pace. Ygritte's fury and death may have hit harder had the battle taken place much sooner in the season. I feel like the battle needed to sit in at the mid-season and not take an entire episode. Cutting the entire Craster's Keep portion would've allowed for the arrival of Stannis in episode 6 or 7, allow Stannis to do something other than refinance and relocate, and given us time for at least the 998th Lord Commander Campaign Season...if not the election itself. Arguably, the extra time wasted on The Wall built up more resentment for the Jon Snow/Wall thread and took away time from other much-needed threads (the start of the Mereen Insurgency/Operation Slave Freedom, Who Cares About the Iron Islanders).

Bran and the Far North: It's about time! Seeing a Child and magic certainly remind us that there's more to this world than politics, sex, and gruesome deaths. I couldn't really tell if those skeletons were wights per se, but seeing them in combat for once really puts the danger in the North in perspective. Also, seeing them hostile and not under the control of the Old Man or the Child tells me that the Old Man doesn't necessarily represent The Other. I'm looking forward to seeing exactly what the Old Man teaches Bran, since I imagine it'll develop a bit faster than the books. Jojen's death really didn't do much for me, as I felt like he was just an exposition fairy that showed up right from nowhere. Jojen could've been Bran's Tyler Durden for all I cared. Might've actually made the thread more interesting.

Danerys and Mereen: Is it me, or was the goat-roasting wasting time? Couldn't they have just skipped to the little girl? Danerys's story came grinding down to slowness before she even set foot in Mereen...one change I didn't welcome from the books. Ah well. Hopefully, season 5 delivers on its promise of a heavily edited AFFC/ADWD combination and gets us all the way to her first dragon ride with reclaiming her true Khaleesi respect.

Brienne/Arya intersection: probably the absolute most welcome change from the book. Brienne's fight with The Hound was both brutal and yet surprisingly (and refreshingly) not gruesome for this show. The Hound's defense of her does seem a bit out of place, but he knows someone will pay serious money for her. Whoever made the decision to combine these together needs a decent bonus and pat on the back. Not only do we finally get to see a liberated Arya free to pursue her Faceless career aspirations, but we also see Brienne's desperation and guilt of her failures (Renly, Catelyn, accepting Jaime Lannister's aid, and now Arya). This buildup will actually make Stoneheart's appearance just that much more vicious.

Speaking of which...yeah. Stoneheart didn't appear. Get over it. We've got enough threads going on that the last thing we needed was a cliffhanger of another thread tangent. Remember how the cliffhanger of season 2 got resolved? (Sam surrounded by wights and White Walkers to Sam rejoining the remaining Night's Watch after a major off-screen battle) I'd rather not have another major cliffhanger tied up by so much off-screen development, thank you. We also need to get Jaime moving out of King's Landing before Stoneheart's appearance really feels threatening to sympathetic characters. I'm not sure how they'll do that now, unless the Blackfish is maintaining an army in counter-siege mode in Riverrun for some reason.

Season 4 took some weird detours of filler. While not as egregious as some of the Season 3 filler, still too much. One thing that both helps and hurts this show is the lack of any date/hard passage of time reference. It helps the show because the plot isn't restricted the intricate puzzling together of threads based on logical timing. It hurts because keeping track of what's happening when is pretty fuzzy. For instance, I feel like maybe a month of time passed at The Wall for the whole season...but somewhere between one and three months passed in Mereen. The Purple Wedding buildup might've taken a month, but the trial up to Tyrion's escape could've only been two weeks. I have no reference to know. This combination of filler and relativistic time leaves me spinning a bit on event progression in Season 4.

[ISiddiqui]

Do people just want to overlook the fact that he willfully slept with Melisandre and kept his wife around?

On the advice of his wife, mind. Selyse was the R'hillor devotee who converted her husband.

He's kind of a dick, and not really all that great a ruler. He has a self imposed legalistic/moralistic code, but he ignores it when it suits him. He's personally overseen people who were loyal to him burned alive.

How do we know he isn't that great of a ruler? After all, Storm's End held out for a year of siege under him. He seems to inspire great loyalty in those under his command (it doesn't hurt that he is the best battle commander in Westeros).

When you're trying to pick between the different rulers still alive in Westeros sure, he's not bad. But that's like saying that the guy who shoved grandma down the stairs for her welfare check is a pretty cool guy when you're looking at the inmates of San Quentin.

Personally, I root for Stannis. The guy is concerned with doing his duty and saving the realm from the Lannister scum - and Ned Stark trusted him (yes, I know that's not all that hard to do, but still).

[ISiddiqui]

Yeah, it was probably Renly who would have made the best king, as he understood the whole point of winning the people's trust/support as a key element of "kinging".

Though I refer you to the quote about Renly made by Cressen (prologue of Clash of Kings):
"The youngest of Lord Steffon's three sons had grown into a man bold but heedless, who acted from impulse rather than calculation. In that, as in so much else, Renly was like his brother Robert, and utterly unlike Stannis."

Robert was a favorite of the people as well.

And Donal Noye's words (in A Game of Thrones to Jon):
"Robert was the true steel. Stannis is pure iron, black and hard and strong, yes, but brittle, the way iron gets. He’ll break before he bends. And Renly, that one, he’s copper, bright and shiny, pretty to look at but not worth all that much at the end of the day"

And this hilarious quote from Olenya Redwine (in Storm of Swords about Renly):
"He knew how to dress and he knew how to smile and he knew how to bathe, and somehow he got the notion that this made him fit to be king."

[flere-imsaho]

Well, absolutely, Imran. "Better king than either Stannis or Robert" probably isn't a high bar anyway. :D

[ISiddiqui]

But I think in the vast majority of Westeros, Renly and Robert were seen as much worse potential kings than Stannis.

[flere-imsaho]

Really?

[NobodyHere]

But I think in the vast majority of Westeros, Renly and Robert were seen as much worse potential kings than Stannis.

I got the exact opposite impression from the books.

[ISiddiqui]

Really?

Yes really. Robert and Renly are charismatic and flashy and liked by the peasants, but the Lords know they are empty suits. (maybe I should have been clearer on that distinction)

[flere-imsaho]

Oh, by "vast majority of Westeros" I assumed you were saying everyone.

But, even having said that, I'd tend to assume most lords would want someone somewhat able to be influenced like Renly and Robert as opposed to the completely-unbending Stannis.

[ISiddiqui]

Well, you got an 'influenced' King in Robert and look what happened? The realm is up to its eyeballs in debt - while someone as smart as Littlefinger is Master of Coin.

[flere-imsaho]

But you're making the case that other Westerosi lords would want a strong, unyielding king. Given the proclivities of those Westerosi lords, that seems unlikely.

[ISiddiqui]

Anyways, I think it is not doubted that book readers tend to be more pro-Stannis than show watchers.

[ISiddiqui]

But you're making the case that other Westerosi lords would want a strong, unyielding king. Given the proclivities of those Westerosi lords, that seems unlikely.

A strong, unyielding king over a chaotic spendthrift king? I'd say so. Even if they lords are jockeying for position, having some sort of order is preferred.

[flere-imsaho]

Anyways, I think it is not doubted that book readers tend to be more pro-Stannis than show watchers.

I'd agree with this.

A strong, unyielding king over a chaotic spendthrift king? I'd say so. Even if they lords are jockeying for position, having some sort of order is preferred.

But the period following Robert's Rebellion is generally regarded as a Pax Baratheon is it not?

I mean, I see your point, I'm just not sure I agree.

[flere-imsaho]

Question: Did Jojen Reed's eyes flash blue just before he was incinerated? If so, why would he become a White Walker instead of just a Wight? Was that another Clue about the Others?

[DaddyTorgo]

Anyways, I think it is not doubted that book readers tend to be more pro-Stannis than show watchers.

I don't know all that many people who are pro-Stannis aside from you.

[flere-imsaho]

Stannis is more nuanced a character in the books than on the show, undoubtedly. Book readers might still view Stannis as a bit of an ass (I know I do), but there's more there to give some more clarity (and thus justification) to his motivations than has been see on the show.

[ISiddiqui]

But the period following Robert's Rebellion is generally regarded as a Pax Baratheon is it not?

Prior to Aerys II burning the Starks, there was a decent Pax Targaryen as well ;). At least since the War of the Ninepenny Kings.

[ISiddiqui]

I don't know all that many people who are pro-Stannis aside from you.

Not that I agree with the theory advanced in the OP in this forum, it tries to find out why people like Stannis:

Are Stannis Fans conservatives? - General (ASoIaF) - A Forum of Ice and Fire (http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/100560-are-stannis-fans-conservatives/)

[flere-imsaho]

Peace is peace, though.

[sabotai]

Question: Did Jojen Reed's eyes flash blue just before he was incinerated? If so, why would he become a White Walker instead of just a Wight? Was that another Clue about the Others?

I thought that was just the reflection of the projectile coming at him.

[ISiddiqui]

Peace is peace, though.

What I'm saying is that there was peace with the Targaryens as well - they didn't spend like there was no tomorrow though. A lot of Daenerys's support in Westeros is supposed to come from those who remember the good days prior to Aerys II going mad.

[JPhillips]

Question: Did Jojen Reed's eyes flash blue just before he was incinerated? If so, why would he become a White Walker instead of just a Wight? Was that another Clue about the Others?

I certainly thought that is what happened.

[NobodyHere]

Wait, when was Jojen incinerated?

[Coffee Warlord]

The Child threw her little grenade thing at him right before they dove in. To me, it looked like he was turning into a zombie right before the Child offed him.

[Vince, Pt. II]

I'm in the "reflection of the fireball" camp.

[flere-imsaho]

Nevermind, it's a reflection of the fireball. See from 5:00 here: Game of Thrones Season 4 Episode 10 (S04E10)|Bran meets the Children and Jojens Dies | White Walkers - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSrluWy0jsg)

[Coffee Warlord]

On another note, I just can't fathom how Dany's storyline doesn't go into Book 6 next season. They simply can't have another full season of her sitting on her ass in Meereen.

[ISiddiqui]

Well, Dany's storyline in Book 6 is going to involve her in the Dothraki sea, invading Meereen with her new Khal - which also means Tyrion and Victarion are going to have to be at Meereen as well (as I'm sure they are important for Dany's return to Meereen).

The dreaded Meereenese Knot.

[flere-imsaho]

3 episodes of intrigue leading up to marriage
2 episodes of Harpies and the army ending up outside of the walls
1 episode of fighting pit & extraction via Drogon
4 episodes of wallowing in mud and eating raw horsemeat with Drogon

Except that I'm guessing Episode 9 will be the fighting pit.

And also, that would be very, very quick (compared to the books) to get Tyrion to Mereen.


So yeah, unless they really fast-track Tyrion & Victarion (or whomever), it's probably quite a few episodes of Mereen politics, marriage manuverings and Daario gradually getting pissed off.

[Honolulu_Blue]

On another note, I just can't fathom how Dany's storyline doesn't go into Book 6 next season. They simply can't have another full season of her sitting on her ass in Meereen.

They could have the siege on Meereen. They could have that young Martel kid come in and fart around for a while like he did in the 5th book.

[flere-imsaho]

Well, Dany's storyline in Book 6 is going to involve her in the Dothraki sea, invading Meereen with her new Khal - which also means Tyrion and Victarion are going to have to be at Meereen as well (as I'm sure they are important for Dany's return to Meereen).

The key is how much (if at all) they show of Tyrion's and Victarion's journeys. I wonder if they'll skip his trip with the Conningtons, maybe saving the introduction of those characters for the following season (if at all)?

And then they might replace Victarion with someone else? Or skip all his exposition and have him introduced as he takes ship to the East?

[flere-imsaho]

They could have the siege on Meereen. They could have that young Martel kid come in and fart around for a while like he did in the 5th book.

I'm going to be pretty surprised if they have Quentyn. It just seems like the whole point of his was to free the dragons. But note that one of the dragons (Rhaegal, I think) had already freed himself from his chains by the time Quentyn and company got there. He just needed the door opened. The whole thing could be easily solved by having Drogon burn down their door (or blast a hole or something) on his way to picking up Dany.

[ISiddiqui]

The key is how much (if at all) they show of Tyrion's and Victarion's journeys. I wonder if they'll skip his trip with the Conningtons, maybe saving the introduction of those characters for the following season (if at all)?

And then they might replace Victarion with someone else? Or skip all his exposition and have him introduced as he takes ship to the East?

Eh... I don't think they'd sacrifice Tyrion sailing with Connington. Aegon's reveal would be the huge thing for the season - having Tyrion realize it was Aegon would make it even more interesting.

And I don't think they'll skip all the exposition of Victarion. They aren't just going to chuck most of Books 4 and 5 to fit it all in one season.

[ISiddiqui]

I'm going to be pretty surprised if they have Quentyn. It just seems like the whole point of his was to free the dragons.

Well and also to show how dead set Doran Martell was to ally with the Targaryens - he had two marriage plans set in motion for years.

[flere-imsaho]

More speculation on narrative slowdowns: Why We're Worried About Game of Thrones Season 5 | Vanity Fair (http://www.vanityfair.com/vf-hollywood/game-of-thrones-season-5)

[stevew]

so basically they're stuck not being able to know the certain pathways of certain characters and whether or not to bother including them into the tv show as they might be important or might not be. I bet the show runners want to strangle martin every day.

[flere-imsaho]

so basically they're stuck not being able to know the certain pathways of certain characters and whether or not to bother including them into the tv show as they might be important or might not be. I bet the show runners want to strangle martin every day.

No, I think they do know, because famously the writers met with Martin who explained his "roadmap" for the rest of the books.

The problem is that when they leave out characters, kill them earlier than in the books, or have them do different things, they're essentially spoiling future books.

I don't think that's been a super-big deal for me so far, but with the subject matter in the next season, it could be.

[ISiddiqui]

They know the basic outlines (ie, roadmap), but not exact stuff like how important certain characters who are introduced will be - which is likely something Martin isn't going to know either until he actually writes things down.

[flere-imsaho]

They know the basic outlines (ie, roadmap), but not exact stuff like how important certain characters who are introduced will be - which is likely something Martin isn't going to know either until he actually writes things down.

I didn't know that specific detail.

We're never going to see the other books, then....

:popcorn:

[RainMaker]

so basically they're stuck not being able to know the certain pathways of certain characters and whether or not to bother including them into the tv show as they might be important or might not be. I bet the show runners want to strangle martin every day.

They should get what they can out of him and then fill in the rest on their own. The odds that the books will ever be finished is slim. And the odds that they would be finished before the show finishes up is even slimmer.

He built a great canvas and told a great story but they also have to create a TV show that can standalone and should make the moves that facilitates that in the best manner.

[chadritt]

They just really seem to want to avoid a Scott Pilgrim situation where the book and movie diverged pretty heavily at a certain point because the author hadnt figured it out by the time they need it. Unfortunately with the reality of making a tv series I think theyre going to have to tell his story for him.

[General Mike]

I don't know all that many people who are pro-Stannis aside from you.

He's growing on me. He's not my favorite character and I don't agree with all of his actions, but I understand his justifications for the actions he's taken. Is he the rightful King of Westeros? Probably, unless you think a Targaryen should be sitting on the iron throne, whether it's Daenerys or someone else. ;)

[sabotai]

For me personally, I wouldn't call myself "pro-Stannis", meaning I'm not exactly hoping the guy wins. But I do love him as a character and hope that if he dies, his death is a good death.

[Ronnie Dobbs3]

Plan is still for seven seasons - D&D (http://insidetv.ew.com/2014/06/18/game-of-thrones-season-5/)

[flere-imsaho]

If we speculate that a major part of the remaining plot includes Dany making it to Westeros with dragons and an army, I have a hard time seeing how the resulting plot developments (battles, the North, the Others, wrapping everything up) fits in less than 2 seasons, which tends to lead me to believe that Dany will need to be on a ship by the end of next season, at which point we'll probably be beyond Martin's writing.

[flere-imsaho]

LOL from a thread on another board:

I don't think anyone expects the White Walkers to actually be an advanced alien race with their nanobots making zombies out of dead people (though, if that's how the series ends, I totally just called it).

[DaddyTorgo]

For me personally, I wouldn't call myself "pro-Stannis", meaning I'm not exactly hoping the guy wins. But I do love him as a character and hope that if he dies, his death is a good death.

Ohhhh my sweet summer child...

[stevew]

unless its a ruse, Michelle Fairley confirmed that she won't be returning to the show. Which is pretty sweet, cause that Lady Stonehart stuff sounded like awful television.

[flere-imsaho]

I feel the concept of the Red God bringing people back from death is going to have some level of significance, but clearly the show writers feel they can still do that with Beric as opposed to Catelyn. So, it's probably a really good decision by the show writers.

So now it'll be interesting to see what GRRM does with Zombie Catelyn in the books.

[Coffee Warlord]

"Speaking of Jaqen, according to Tom Wlaschiha's agency, the actor will return to Game of Thrones in August. The agency notes that Wlaschiha is in the main cast, all of which makes it sound as though Arya will be getting a mentor in the new season."

Awwweeeeesome.

[Barkeep49]

It always made sense to me to have Jaqen be her mentor rather than whoever it was in the actual book (see how memorable that person was?).

[ISiddiqui]

unless its a ruse, Michelle Fairley confirmed that she won't be returning to the show. Which is pretty sweet, cause that Lady Stonehart stuff sounded like awful television.

Booo! I really liked Zombie Cat getting her revenge. Also, as stated, it really cemented R'hillor's power.

It always made sense to me to have Jaqen be her mentor rather than whoever it was in the actual book (see how memorable that person was?).

I think that was the point. The mentor was as faceless as Arya is to be one day.

If we speculate that a major part of the remaining plot includes Dany making it to Westeros with dragons and an army, I have a hard time seeing how the resulting plot developments (battles, the North, the Others, wrapping everything up) fits in less than 2 seasons, which tends to lead me to believe that Dany will need to be on a ship by the end of next season, at which point we'll probably be beyond Martin's writing.

It seems... cramped. I know quite a few friends who hadn't read the books complaining that the finale this past season seemed like a narrative dump. I fear next season may be similar if that's their plan. I really think they'll need that 8th season.

[flere-imsaho]

If it was just Dany's story, I could totally see her on a boat at the end of next season (possibly even earlier).

But given what we already know they're putting into next season (including flashbacks from before the timeline of the books!), it is, definitely, cramped.

[flere-imsaho]

It's time for Game of Thrones to abandon the books - The Week (http://theweek.com/article/index/263829/its-time-for-game-of-thrones-to-abandon-the-books)

Not sure I agree with the lede, but this quotes stood out to me:

That's not to say Game of Thrones should disregard everything that happens in the remaining two novels that have been published, A Feast for Crows and A Dance With Dragons. Assuming that the casting notice leaked to fan site WinterIsComing.net is accurate, we already know that Game of Thrones' fifth season will introduce at least a few elements of those books, including an increased focus on the Martells of Dorne and a greater emphasis on the Faith of the Seven. So far, so good — but that still leaves plenty of stories from the books that are unaccounted for, from the extended political disputes of the Iron Islands to the introduction of disparate characters like Young Griff and Quentyn Martell.

The truth is that the sprawling nature of Martin's later novels is totally unworkable on the screen. Martin's best moments — the death of Ned Stark, the Red Wedding, the trial of Tyrion Lannister — have already passed, and there's nothing that's quite as strong on the horizon. And even if there was, is there room for it? So far, Game of Thrones has just barely managed to juggle one of biggest casts and broadest stories on television without becoming too unwieldy. But for all its success, the show can't possibly afford to introduce so many new elements in the seasons to come; even with smart streamlining and near-constant character deaths, we barely have time for the characters Game of Thrones has introduced.

[ISiddiqui]

But given what we already know they're putting into next season (including flashbacks from before the timeline of the books!), it is, definitely, cramped.

Flashbacks, eh? Hmmm... wonder how that will work. It could be very interesting. Maybe showing when the Iron Islands rebelled and Stannis put down the rebellion. Or how Dorne has been biding its time.

Maybe, even if they want to create maximum speculation about Aegon, flashback to the Blackfyre Rebellion (maybe even have an entire flashback story arc concerning Dunk & Egg... likely not, but I can dream, can't I? ;)).

[Ronnie Dobbs3]

sadtrombone.mp3

The speculation is that the flashback is Maggy the Frog

[flere-imsaho]

If I remember correctly, the flashbacks were being hinted at due to some casting information that indicated (I think) they were looking for a young Cersei.

[stevew]

Does Bran control a dragon in the books?

[ISiddiqui]

Not yet.

[ISiddiqui]

So I decided to re-read Game of Thrones. This is the first time I've read since the early 2000s (I started reading right before A Feast For Crows came out). Just a few chapters in and already some interesting foreshadowing:

- Dany's first chapter has two references to the red God (R'hillor). It appears that is the God of Pentos, but we don't run into R'hillor again until the next book, I think (with Melissandre). I am likely reading too much into this, but I wonder if Dany and R'hillor are going to be friends.
- In addition, when Dany enters the house that the rulers of Pentos have given to Khal Drago (yeah, not just crazy outside tents), the guard blocking the door is an Unsullied - and Viserys is repulsed by the eunuch.
- In Jon's first chapter, he describes Tyrion Lannister walking by him and mentions how light his hair is. He mentions that is more white than blond. That may make me believe even more in the rumors that Tyrion is Joanna Lannister's son through rape by the Mad King Aerys II.

Of course, I could be reaching for clues, but I found it all very interesting so far.

[DaddyTorgo]

I'll eat my hat if Tyrion is Joanna's son through a rape by the Mad King.

That's such a fanfic-theory so that people can get all googly-eyed about Tyrion that it's just...ridiculous IMO. There's all of ONE LINE of textual evidence to support it at all (less than R+L=J).

[ISiddiqui]

Well, I added the 2nd potential line of conjecture for it ;)

[Chief Rum]

Where did Joanna Lannister come from? She is not a Lannister by birth, correct? Jaime/Cersei aside, I don't recall the Lannisters being into the whole incest thing, not like the Targaryens were.

My point is, if Joanna isn't a Lannister by birth, there is no way that Tywin would let a dwarf "Lannister" born from a rape of his non-Lannister wife by a crazy mad king live past, oh, a day. IMO.

[Ronnie Dobbs3]

Joanna was born in to a cadet branch of House Lannister. She had at least one sibling, Stafford.[3] Later she married her cousin Tywin.

From the wiki

[Chief Rum]

From the wiki

Well, there you go then. Thanks RD3.

[NobodyHere]

I was thinking of buying the boxset to re-read the series myself.

[flere-imsaho]

Latest fan speculation, apparently, is that Roose Bolton is a descendant of the Night's King.

Not sure I know/care about that, but it did get me thinking about how the Boltons seem to have a proportionally larger part in the show so far than the books. Given where we are, this kind of thing might (should?) indicate who has importance as the books wind up.

[ISiddiqui]

I was thinking about that as well, but it all might be mere speculation because the show writers were giddy that they had an actual honest to goodness villain rather than a flawed antagonist.

I am of the opinion that Stannis takes Winterfell after the events of Dance with Dragons, so I guess we'll see.

[flere-imsaho]

Of course, an argument could be made that Roose Bolton attempting to make a strong and unified north a reality.

[ISiddiqui]

More fun stuff from reading the books. The Drogo-Dany consummation scene which was totally rapey in the show? One of the most consensual sex scenes in fantasy I've ever read. Yeah, Drogo leads her to a secluded spot, but then begins to engage in foreplay - rubbing her shoulders, etc. And while naked, he asks her "No?" (It's the only Common Tongue word he knows) and Dany says "Yes" and guides his hand to parts below.

Talk about completely changing the entire tenor of a scene.

Of course in the book Khal Drogo is far more refined as well, as the Magisters of Pentos have given the Khal a palatial residence where he and his bloodriders wear silks and act Pentos-y. The wedding goes into traditional horserider and, then they gotta go to Vaes Dothrak to get the blessing on the marriage, but it appears in the books that Drogo has been living in Pentos in luxury for a while.

[DaddyTorgo]

Yeah - Drogo in the books > Drogo on TV.

Although Jason Momoa absolutely killed bringing the character to life (within the confines of the work he was given).

The Dany/Drogo relationship in the show just feels...right. Felt much more of a connection to Drogo then in the books.

Drogo's speech, the whole "and to my son..." bit...that was absolutely EPIC.

[ISiddiqui]

More reading:

The Bran dreamseer dream while still in coma took me by surprise - because of how detailed it was. Bran could see everything going on to his family as the three eyed crow implored him to fly or die and then he looked way up North and shocked the heck out of him and was told that is what he must live, and as soon as he work, he named his direwolf Summer. We know the Children of the Forest have wight resistant powers, what will Bran be able to do to defeat the Others - kind of interesting.

Also, I didn't realize what a spendthrift Robert was!! When Ned found out the realm was in debt (to the tune of 300 golden dragons), he mentioned that under Aerys II, the Treasury was FULL (say what you will about the madness, the realm made money ;)). What in the world was Robert doing for 30 years to waste all that money? Do tournaments cost that much?

[NobodyHere]

Maybe Littlefinger had some sticky fingers

[flere-imsaho]

The Bran dreamseer dream while still in coma took me by surprise - because of how detailed it was. Bran could see everything going on to his family as the three eyed crow implored him to fly or die and then he looked way up North and shocked the heck out of him and was told that is what he must live, and as soon as he work, he named his direwolf Summer. We know the Children of the Forest have wight resistant powers, what will Bran be able to do to defeat the Others - kind of interesting.

Good thing to bring back up, especially as I haven't read the books in a while. Again, this is why Bran's story is the most interesting thread so far for me.

Also, I didn't realize what a spendthrift Robert was!! When Ned found out the realm was in debt (to the tune of 300 golden dragons), he mentioned that under Aerys II, the Treasury was FULL (say what you will about the madness, the realm made money ;)). What in the world was Robert doing for 30 years to waste all that money? Do tournaments cost that much?

Maybe Littlefinger had some sticky fingers

Option 1 is what NobodyHere suggests, I think.

On Option 2 (spending a lot of money), in Feudal Europe, retaining an entourage was expensive. It's probably the #1 reason that kings did not keep an army together any long than they needed to, and also relied heavily on paying off the nobles and their retinues through looting & ransoms while under campaign.

Given that Martin spends a good amount of time, right off the bat, showing the extent of the retinue Robert brings to Winterfell, it's probably safe to assume he's making the point that this is how Robert normally rolled, and it would have been expensive (combined with other spending, of course).

Option 3 (a little of both) is probably the most likely. So where is Littlefinger's money? Some was probably spent on bribes, but does he have a "war chest" somewhere? Is his in league with the Iron Bank?

[NobodyHere]

Option 1 is what NobodyHere suggests, I think.



I suppose what I was musing at was that Littlefinger had the dual purpose of making himself rich by stealing money all the while getting loans from the Iron Bank on behalf of the Iron Throne.

Therefore he could possibly buy himself an army and then march on the broke King's landing, or perhaps use another diabolical scheme to take the throne.

[ISiddiqui]

In the chapter it was mentioned, though, that half of what Robert owed was to the Lannisters. One could say that Tywin was fleecing the crown, but it would make little sense considering who would get the throne after Robert.

[flere-imsaho]

I supposed the reason Tywin was happy to lend all that money to the throne was a) sort of an "insurance" policy should people get different ideas about the line of succession and b) in the knowledge that when Joffrey came to the throne Tywin could just forgive the debts.

Either is interesting in the knowledge that the Lannisters' traditional source of wealth (the gold mines) is no longer active (though they still probably get plenty from normal feudal tithing).

It would also explain the problems raised once Tywin finds out that as much as the throne owes the Lannisters, it owes the Iron Bank more.

Tywin knows that once Robert is gone, his family (the Lannisters) can use the throne to generate money (just through normal feudal obligations). Owing a huge amount to the Iron Bank, plus having drained Casterly Rock's own treasury, puts a lot more pressure on Tywin to find a solution.

It would be interesting to know how much of that was Littlefinger's plan all along (thus netting him Harrenhall, amongst other things).

[ISiddiqui]

Actually, the crown owed the Lannisters more than the Iron Bank. The Iron Bank had part of the other half (along with the Tyrells, the Free Cities, etc).

[flere-imsaho]

Ah, thanks for the clarification. Still, if we assume Tywin didn't know about it, and given the Iron Bank's reputation anyway, and Tywin having few other ways to raise the money, it's easy to see how it compounds the problem for him.

But hey, he's dead now and doesn't have to deal with it. :D

[ISiddiqui]

Cersei is bound to do a good job... right? ;)

[flere-imsaho]

BTW, Jonathan Pryce is a great casting decision, especially in that role. He's going to chew scenery like there's no tomorrow.

[ISiddiqui]

I had also completely forgotten that Stannis was the one going around with Jon Arryn, seeing if the "seed was strong". In fact, there is a lot of discussion about Stannis in Game of Thrones - seems to be more about Stannis than Renly actually saying things. Since Stannis was merely spoken of and had retreated to Dragonstone, I guess I never took much heed of it before.

It seems that Stannis knew what Jon Arryn knew - Joffery, Tommen, and Myrcella weren't Robert's and when Jon was killed, Stannis figured he'd be next, and fled to Dragonstone to prevent assassination.

And I had thought Stannis only knew due to Ned's letter - it appears he had the proof first.

[ISiddiqui]

Reading on in Game of Thrones, Ned's stupidity just still makes me wince. Only one is really for "honor" though. He turns down Renly's offer of 100 swords because he'd be kidnapping the children (exactly what Cersei does with Sansa when she makes her move). Having Uncle Renly bring Joff, Tommen, and Myrcella to Maegor's Holdfast for safe keeping wouldn't have been all that horrible for the kids, I'd imagine.

The second idiotic move though is something that has nothing to do with Ned holding to his "honor", but rather being a moron. The guy already doesn't trust Littlefinger, but then to stick to telling him that he wants Stannis on the throne, even after Littlefinger tells him that'd mean all out war is just ridiculously stupid. I remembered Littlefinger betrayed Ned with the Gold Cloaks (and though it was some strange way to get Cat), but reading it again, it seems like Littlefinger was perfectly happy to support Ned as Protector of the Realm, but was horrified to learn that Ned wanted to put Stannis on the throne and he'd execute half the Lords and start a bloodbath of a war.

--

Oh, and I was thinking today of the mistake of not casting Quentyn - the guy is supposed to be short, so it would have been the best possible chance of casting Daniel Radcliffe in the show ;). (and the short story arc of Quentyn would have made it easily capable of selling it to a movie star - you only need to film a few episodes worth of scenes)

[Honolulu_Blue]

Reading on in Game of Thrones, Ned's stupidity just still makes me wince. Only one is really for "honor" though. He turns down Renly's offer of 100 swords because he'd be kidnapping the children (exactly what Cersei does with Sansa when she makes her move). Having Uncle Renly bring Joff, Tommen, and Myrcella to Maegor's Holdfast for safe keeping wouldn't have been all that horrible for the kids, I'd imagine.

The second idiotic move though is something that has nothing to do with Ned holding to his "honor", but rather being a moron. The guy already doesn't trust Littlefinger, but then to stick to telling him that he wants Stannis on the throne, even after Littlefinger tells him that'd mean all out war is just ridiculously stupid. I remembered Littlefinger betrayed Ned with the Gold Cloaks (and though it was some strange way to get Cat), but reading it again, it seems like Littlefinger was perfectly happy to support Ned as Protector of the Realm, but was horrified to learn that Ned wanted to put Stannis on the throne and he'd execute half the Lords and start a bloodbath of a war.

It's interesting to think if Littlefinger really wouldn't have betrayed him if he decided to take the throne himself. I imagine he might not, because he figured that Ned would be a pretty easy target to manipulate and could off him later to get to Cat.

I think what Littlefinger was worried about with Stannis, wasn't so much that it'd mean all out war, Littlefinger thrives in that environment as we saw, but that Stannis would likely tell Littlefinger to fuck off at best, kill him at worst. Littlefinger probably knew that he couldn't "play" Stannis.

Ned's biggest flaws are his honor and his loyalty/love for those he's close to. Both lead him to make some poor decisions.

[Vince, Pt. II]

I think what Littlefinger was worried about with Stannis, wasn't so much that it'd mean all out war, Littlefinger thrives in that environment as we saw, but that Stannis would likely tell Littlefinger to fuck off at best, kill him at worst. Littlefinger probably knew that he couldn't "play" Stannis.

This.

[flere-imsaho]

Oh, and I was thinking today of the mistake of not casting Quentyn - the guy is supposed to be short, so it would have been the best possible chance of casting Daniel Radcliffe in the show ;). (and the short story arc of Quentyn would have made it easily capable of selling it to a movie star - you only need to film a few episodes worth of scenes)

Meh on stunt casting, though.

It's interesting to think if Littlefinger really wouldn't have betrayed him if he decided to take the throne himself. I imagine he might not, because he figured that Ned would be a pretty easy target to manipulate and could off him later to get to Cat.

I agree with this. Despite Ned being all about honor, he would have been easy for Littlefinger to manipulate since he also tended not to believe there were intrigues going on.

I think what Littlefinger was worried about with Stannis, wasn't so much that it'd mean all out war, Littlefinger thrives in that environment as we saw, but that Stannis would likely tell Littlefinger to fuck off at best, kill him at worst. Littlefinger probably knew that he couldn't "play" Stannis.

Yes, exactly.

[ISiddiqui]

I think what Littlefinger was worried about with Stannis, wasn't so much that it'd mean all out war, Littlefinger thrives in that environment as we saw, but that Stannis would likely tell Littlefinger to fuck off at best, kill him at worst. Littlefinger probably knew that he couldn't "play" Stannis.

I dunno so much about that. Melissandre seems to be able to play Stannis when she wants... though she has... um... more to offer. I think a hint may have been when it was sideways referenced that Stannis once wanted to close all the brothels in King's Landing. It may be a more personal hit in the wallet for Littlefinger :).

In addition, I do think that all out war was something Littlefinger wanted to mostly avoid. Or at least war between the Lannisters and the Throne. Especially since the Lannisters owned half the debt of the Throne. Masters of Coin (or Secretaries of Treasury) are usually put in a very difficult position in finding money for wars.

[ISiddiqui]

I'm just going to keep talking about some of the stuff I see while reading, even if no one cares... mostly because I love this world Martin has created (and somewhat to see myself talk ;)).

Anyways, the portrayal of Joffrey I find interesting. Joffrey is, of course, an evil little shit. But that isn't totally obvious early on in Game of Thrones. I mean, yes, he is an arrogant tool (esp towards Robb and Jon while fighting with wooden swords at Winterfell), but in his interactions with Sansa, he seemingly has a deeper kindness. Of course its all told from Sansa's view, but still, he seems to genuinely care for her, while being arrogant and petty. The bad sides are obvious, in dealing with Robb and Jon at Winterfell and Arya and the other kid on the way to King's Landing. But at some points he almost seems like that bad guy who turns good - kind of like the role Jaime has undertaken.

Even right before Ned dies, it seems like perhaps that exists. When Sansa goes to the counsel pleading for mercy for Ned, Cersei and the rest of the small council chastises her. It is Joffrey who lets her speak and then promises mercy.

Of course in the next chapter that has Joffrey, you see he doesn't mean it at all. And then he's a complete asshole to Sansa, making her get out of bed while she is in grief, having Meryn Trant hit her across the face, making her see Ned's head on a pike. But for a second there, Joffrey was more complex and I think Martin wanted a sense of whiplash there.

Nicely done work.

[flere-imsaho]

Good points, Imran.

Unsuitable people becoming kings was, of course, a standard thing in the Middle Ages, and Martin provides plenty of examples in Westeros, with Joffrey being one of the more obvious ones.

To me, it makes Tywin's conversation with Tommen (in the show) at Joffrey's casket really brilliant. In getting Tommen to really think about what's important as a king, it's also pointed out how really rare a "good" king would be.

[flere-imsaho]

I don't know if you've all seen, but apparently there's an interview with Martin out there where he says that some fans have already deduced the ending. Of course, given that there are so many fans this is sort of a "million monkeys with typewriters eventually produce the works of Shakespeare" thing, but still.

[Barkeep49]

I've really enjoyed your thoughts as you read ISiddiqui, just don't have much to add of value in response but like that you'll continue to post them.

[DaddyTorgo]

I'm just going to keep talking about some of the stuff I see while reading, even if no one cares... mostly because I love this world Martin has created (and somewhat to see myself talk ;)).

Anyways, the portrayal of Joffrey I find interesting. Joffrey is, of course, an evil little shit. But that isn't totally obvious early on in Game of Thrones. I mean, yes, he is an arrogant tool (esp towards Robb and Jon while fighting with wooden swords at Winterfell), but in his interactions with Sansa, he seemingly has a deeper kindness. Of course its all told from Sansa's view, but still, he seems to genuinely care for her, while being arrogant and petty. The bad sides are obvious, in dealing with Robb and Jon at Winterfell and Arya and the other kid on the way to King's Landing. But at some points he almost seems like that bad guy who turns good - kind of like the role Jaime has undertaken.

Even right before Ned dies, it seems like perhaps that exists. When Sansa goes to the counsel pleading for mercy for Ned, Cersei and the rest of the small council chastises her. It is Joffrey who lets her speak and then promises mercy.

Of course in the next chapter that has Joffrey, you see he doesn't mean it at all. And then he's a complete asshole to Sansa, making her get out of bed while she is in grief, having Meryn Trant hit her across the face, making her see Ned's head on a pike. But for a second there, Joffrey was more complex and I think Martin wanted a sense of whiplash there.

Nicely done work.

You allude to it, but I think a lot of that was really due to the POV's that we were seeing Joffrey through and how those changed based on his actions.

It does really show off the interesting bits of that style of writing though.

[ISiddiqui]

Unsuitable people becoming kings was, of course, a standard thing in the Middle Ages, and Martin provides plenty of examples in Westeros, with Joffrey being one of the more obvious ones.

Indeed. One of things that I find VERY interesting is in reading the Dunk and Egg novellas. Egg, who becomes Aegon V, learns a lot of good lessons from Duncan the Tall. And you think, if you read just those novellas, that Egg will use those lessons when he comes Aegon V the Unlikely (due to his older brother dying and then the next in line, Aemon, who was already a maester , taking the black).

However, if you actually read through some of the stuff on wikis for A Song of Ice and Fire, probably pieced through from small things in the novels themselves, you'll find that Aegon V was a HORRIBLE king! He set up his kids in political marriages and then decided to let them all marry for love (setting up a lot of angry lords) and then after getting the entire Kingdom mad at him, he basically secludes himself at Summerhall trying to hatch a dragon and manages to kill himself and Duncan the Tall as well as his oldest son (named Duncan).

Of course that ends up leading to Jaeherys becoming King... who is the father to Aerys II.

Anyways, was thinking about this again when I just read when Maester Aemon tells Jon that he knows exactly what Jon is going through. And this time I noticed a tinge of regret in his voice, whereas before I didn't. As if Aemon knew that he could have spared the Kingdom and his blood a lot of pain if he became King rather than staying a Maester and then taking the Black (or if he remained a Maester in King's Landing, could have informed his younger brother Aemon that he's messing up).

I've really enjoyed your thoughts as you read ISiddiqui, just don't have much to add of value in response but like that you'll continue to post them.

Thanks! I plan on re-reading the rest in turn as well and I'll continue doing this. Discussing my thoughts, either out loud or in writing, tends to allow me to think through them, so it's been fun for me.

You allude to it, but I think a lot of that was really due to the POV's that we were seeing Joffrey through and how those changed based on his actions.

It does really show off the interesting bits of that style of writing though.

Oh, indeed. But I think that was Martin's plan. Because of the POVs and how they were used, we are to think better of Joffrey than he deserves, and we are to think more highly of Robb than we may if we were in Robb's head and knew his doubts and whatnot.

[DaddyTorgo]

Indeed. One of things that I find VERY interesting is in reading the Dunk and Egg novellas. Egg, who becomes Aegon V, learns a lot of good lessons from Duncan the Tall. And you think, if you read just those novellas, that Egg will use those lessons when he comes Aegon V the Unlikely (due to his older brother dying and then the next in line, Aemon, who was already a maester , taking the black).

However, if you actually read through some of the stuff on wikis for A Song of Ice and Fire, probably pieced through from small things in the novels themselves, you'll find that Aegon V was a HORRIBLE king! He set up his kids in political marriages and then decided to let them all marry for love (setting up a lot of angry lords) and then after getting the entire Kingdom mad at him, he basically secludes himself at Summerhall trying to hatch a dragon and manages to kill himself and Duncan the Tall as well as his oldest son (named Duncan).

Of course that ends up leading to Jaeherys becoming King... who is the father to Aerys II.

Anyways, was thinking about this again when I just read when Maester Aemon tells Jon that he knows exactly what Jon is going through. And this time I noticed a tinge of regret in his voice, whereas before I didn't. As if Aemon knew that he could have spared the Kingdom and his blood a lot of pain if he became King rather than staying a Maester and then taking the Black (or if he remained a Maester in King's Landing, could have informed his younger brother Aemon that he's messing up).



Thanks! I plan on re-reading the rest in turn as well and I'll continue doing this. Discussing my thoughts, either out loud or in writing, tends to allow me to think through them, so it's been fun for me.



Oh, indeed. But I think that was Martin's plan. Because of the POVs and how they were used, we are to think better of Joffrey than he deserves, and we are to think more highly of Robb than we may if we were in Robb's head and knew his doubts and whatnot.

Absolutely. And I think that's why so many people sympathize so much with Robb even moreso in reading the books the first time then in the TV show, because you get basically a 100% "good guy" vibe from him (even his refusing to marry the Frey is presented in such a way that you can go "oh those kids and their 'love' marriages". Would absolutely be different if we saw more from inside his head, or hell, even from his inner-circle.

[ISiddiqui]

Though I think the show fucked up by going the Talisa route. Jeyne Westerling indicated that Robb was basically tramping up and down the West, destroying Lannister bannermen at will.

And you have the questions of whether the Westerlings played this up when they realized Robb had eyes for their Jeyne.

Talisa is some random nurse who claims Essos aristocratic blood and people believe her? Meh.

[DaddyTorgo]

Though I think the show fucked up by going the Talisa route. Jeyne Westerling indicated that Robb was basically tramping up and down the West, destroying Lannister bannermen at will.

And you have the questions of whether the Westerlings played this up when they realized Robb had eyes for their Jeyne.

Talisa is some random nurse who claims Essos aristocratic blood and people believe her? Meh.

Totally agree.

[flere-imsaho]

But Robb's dead soon thereafter. And the point about Robb's death is just to underline how ill-prepared he is to deal with the real game of thrones (i.e. intrigue). Unless I'm missing something significant about Jeyne.

[ISiddiqui]

Jeyne makes it a more interesting story. It ain't all about the end; how we get there is important in this story too :D.

[flere-imsaho]

I can't argue with that. After all, I'm the guy who likes Bran's story, so I shouldn't complain.

In addition, we may never read the ending anyway, so we should enjoy the story instead. :eek:

[ISiddiqui]

DRAGONS!!

Great ending to a good book. I especially liked (which I had forgotten) how Khal Drogo's bloodriders are all like a woman can't be a khal, WTF you giving us your bride gifts and asking us to follow you for? And then as soon as they pull away the ash from the pyre and see the baby dragons with Dany, they IMMEDIATELY bend down and go "blood of my blood". It's hilarious.

Also forgot about how Mirri Maz Durr wasn't just put to the pyre because she took Dany's kid (well, probably mostly for that), but because "death brings for life" (or something like that). Dany put the dragons' eggs on Drogo and bound Mirri because she expected something like the dragons hatching to happen (Targaryens have tried to hatch dragon eggs before, see Aegon V, so it seems to be in the line :D).

[NobodyHere]

George R.R. Martin now has 'a lot more flexibility for killing people' (http://tv.msn.com/tv/article.aspx?news=885501)

As if he needed any.

[Edward64]

Pretty cool video on the special effects of GOT.

Further Proof 'Game Of Thrones' Is The Most Spectacular Show On TV (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/30/game-of-thrones-special-effects_n_5741556.html)

[ISiddiqui]

The Library finally had a digital copy of "A Clash of Kings".

Prologue note - Shireen (I forgot she was revealed so early) has nightmares of "Dragons chasing [her]". And how true those nightmares shall be (either chasing her with Stannis or after Stannis is dead and Shireen is the heir on that line of argument).

[ISiddiqui]

The prologue of Clash of Kings really is the best in the series.. though its more of an opening Chapter than a Prologue... the only think that really makes it a prologue is it is told from the POV of Maester Cressen who dies in it. It's really interesting that we find the "strangler" here and a description of why it has to be in crystal form (what foreshadowing for something done a book and a half in advance). It also tends to showcase Stannis and Selyse for the first time and Selyse seemingly plays a bigger role than I originally thought. At this time, Selyse is pretty nasty and Stannis hasn't been won over to R'hillor. Selyse is just horrible to Cressen, and Stannis has to bring her down a notch or two, but he isn't kind to the Maester - Stannis sees him as old and unable to do the tasks he's supposed to. It's Davos who treats him with kindness.

It also showcases how badass Melisandre is from the beginning, drinking almost an entire cup of strangler wine while giving Cressen a sip and Cressen is the one who instantly dies while Melisandre is unaffected - shows that the Red God gets shit done from the onset.

Tyrion riding into King's Landing is quite amusing as well. Especially Cersei's reaction. Tyrion's discussion with Varys at the inn where Shae is being kept and the underlying unsaid threats that are revealed in Tyrion's mind are highly entertaining (and unable to be replicated in the show, sadly).

[ISiddiqui]

It's amazing how much detail GRRM had created before he even went to writing the books. It may be the most amazingly detailed world creation in fiction. Today I was reading when the Old Bear tells Jon Snow about Maester Aemon's backstory (I think when I first read it, I was more like, c'mon with the exposition, where is the battle). Right in that backstory is the entire background for the Dunk and Egg tales (from after the Blackfyre Rebellion to when Egg was crowned). It's amazing that this early in "Clash of Kings" that we get something that becomes so detailed that happened 120 years before the events of the story - something that really isn't all that relevant (Brynden Rivers becoming the Three Eyed Crow is, but that's tangential to the tale). It's absolutely mindblowing.

Makes me wonder how many years GRRM spent creating this world and the current heraldry and perhaps when we are waiting for a new book, we don't account for all this time he spent before even writing the 1st book. And now, he has to make sure that he doesn't destroy some sort of continuity with all the detail he has constructed.

Also, Tyrion and Varys's scheming, and trying to see how much they can trust each other, is fantastic stuff.

[DaddyTorgo]

I need to put my preorder in on Amazon for "Worlds"

[ISiddiqui]

I'm surprised it's only 336 pages ;). Though I guess it is textbook size (ie, 8' by 11') and weighs 3.8lbs.

[DaddyTorgo]

Yeah. I sorta wanted to get the ebook version of it, but I want to be able to really enjoy the graphics and maps and such, so I'm going hardcopy.

[ISiddiqui]

Here's the description:

If the past is prologue, then George R. R. Martin’s masterwork—the most inventive and entertaining fantasy saga of our time—warrants one hell of an introduction. At long last, it has arrived with The World of Ice & Fire.

This lavishly illustrated volume is a comprehensive history of the Seven Kingdoms, providing vividly constructed accounts of the epic battles, bitter rivalries, and daring rebellions that lead to the events of A Song of Ice and Fire and HBO’s Game of Thrones. In a collaboration that’s been years in the making, Martin has teamed with Elio M. García, Jr., and Linda Antonsson, the founders of the renowned fan site Westeros.org—perhaps the only people who know this world almost as well as its visionary creator.

Collected here is all the accumulated knowledge, scholarly speculation, and inherited folk tales of maesters and septons, maegi and singers, including

• full-color artwork and maps, with more than 170 original pieces
• full family trees for Houses Stark, Lannister, and Targaryen
• in-depth explorations of the history and culture of Westeros
• 100% all-new material, more than half of which Martin wrote specifically for this book

The definitive companion piece to George R. R. Martin’s dazzlingly conceived universe, The World of Ice & Fire is indeed proof that the pen is mightier than a storm of swords.

Yeah, I think the book version is required here. Also the family trees are a bit difficult to fully follow on ebook (and I hope its more than just Stark, Lannister, and Targaryen - but that may just be the PR blurb).

[NobodyHere]

I think we need a Game of Thrones character draft

[ISiddiqui]

How about a Song of Ice and Fire character draft instead, because I'm totally drafting Baelor Breakspeare or Brynden Rivers in the first few rounds? ;)

[JPhillips]

Oh, yeah? Well I'll draft the Seven-Faced God and call it a day.

[DaddyTorgo]

How about a Song of Ice and Fire character draft instead, because I'm totally drafting Baelor Breakspeare or Brynden Rivers in the first few rounds? ;)

YES YES YES - although I'd make it more than a character draft. That way you could include locations too...

[ISiddiqui]

We'd have to draw the line at drafting dragons though ;).