OT: A Song of Ice and Fire Series (spoilers inside)

[Honolulu_Blue]

LOL!

The relief of people saying Tyrion wasn't going go on a long boat ride turns to ash ;).

I think people would rather Griff and Young Griff be included if there was no Penny ;).

Well, we know that Tyrion will make it to Mereen before this season ends. So, we're still waaaay ahead of the books on this one. I don't mind a bit of a journey, so long as it's not too long and it's interesting.

Penny and games of cyvasse are not interesting. Some of the other stuff that happened with Tyrion and Mormont was kind of interesting. It's all a balance.

[ISiddiqui]

5 episodes until he potentially gets there ;).

[Honolulu_Blue]

5 episodes until he potentially gets there ;).

Given all the other plot lines they are juggling, sounds pretty reasonable. The scene in Old Valryia and with Drogon and the Stonemen were all great scenes. Visually stunning, moving, interesting.

I think Andy Greenwald at Grantland summed up just how great that whole scene was:


Jorah and Tyrion’s slow boat to Valyria, the penultimate sequence in the gripping “Kill the Boy,” was a glorious piece of imaginative storytelling. It stirred my soul; it stole my breath. The ruins of an ancient, globe-straddling civilization rising up out of the placid waters reminded me of the glory years of Lost or a particularly trippy episode of Cosmos. Jeremy Podeswa, making his Thrones debut, kept his camera low, the better to gape at the collapsing coliseums and disintegrating castles of the empire that once ruled the known universe.

“For thousands of years they were the best in the world at almost everything,” Tyrion said of the Valryians — a powerful people who rode dragons for sport and birthed a dynasty that’s currently languishing in a Meereenese pyramid. “And then … and then they weren’t.” Nature had reclaimed nearly all that the Valyrians had built with a cruelly efficient beauty. The verse Tyrion quoted lingered on notions of futility (“The Doom consumed it all alike” is basically the Seven Kingdoms version of “Ozymandias”), and I found myself thinking of cemetery groundskeepers and how their job is to beat back the encroachment of life on carefully manicured monuments to death.

Of course, one can’t expect to have awe without some shock. (This is Game of Thrones, after all, not a Terrence Malick film.)...

Give me some more scenes like that over the next 5 episodes, and we're all good.

I love a good journey, so long as it's interesting and meaningful in some way to the story and/or characters. So far, Tyrion's journey on the show has done that. Unfortunately, much (not all) of Tyrion's journey in the book was neither interesting, nor meaningful. A lot of what happened (not all) in the book, wavered between boring to downright painful to read, and not in the good "Red Wedding" type of painful.

[ISiddiqui]

I personally really enjoyed Tyrion's boat journey in the book, up to the point he was captured by Ser Jorah (well the capture was fun, but afterwards was meh). The gradual revealing of Griff and Young Griff actually being Jon Connington and Aegon, the journey through the Stone Men part of Valyria, the moment that Connington was like screw finding Dany and goes to the Golden Company and they accept... what did he offer, is it related to Blackfyre? Awesome stuff.

[ISiddiqui]

Ugh, show. Seriously... I mean yes marrying Sansa to Ramsey would have led to something like this... but this is why I hated the Sansa going to Winterfell plot.

[ISiddiqui]

Oh, and of course Tyrion and Jorah get captured by slavers... is Penny long behind?

[Grover]

Ugh, show. Seriously... I mean yes marrying Sansa to Ramsey would have led to something like this... but this is why I hated the Sansa going to Winterfell plot.

Like I said in the other thread, so glad they didn't do what Ramsay did with Jeyne.

[Grover]

I also feel like they're using Sansa's rape as a catapult to a Theon redemption arc. I don't like that.

The entire thing made me feel very uncomfortable.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Oh, and of course Tyrion and Jorah get captured by slavers... is Penny long behind?

I doubt it. No Penny and no Tyrion tumbling around like a fool.

Hopefully, it will just be taking them to Mereen and the fighting pits.

[ISiddiqui]

Like I said in the other thread, so glad they didn't do what Ramsay did with Jeyne.

But even then though (say you do a turn away with Jeyne as well - btw, didn't they show Jeyne as "fake Arya" earlier in the show [or was it just the books]? Whatever happened to that?), at the least it doesn't fuck up a character arc.

It seems the show has used rape to mess up at least two character arcs - Jaime's redemption and Sansa's cunning.

I also feel like they're using Sansa's rape as a catapult to a Theon redemption arc. I don't like that.

They are indeed. Sansa is, at least in the show, once again just a pawn.

[Vince, Pt. II]

Yeah, I keep waiting for Sansa to start DOING something, because they've been leading up to it for a while...and they keep dropping the ball.

[sabotai]

The fighting pits scene (was it rewritten to basically be "pre-season"?) was comically bad. I guess they were running low on the CG budget or something and couldn't do an actual arena.

[ISiddiqui]

It does seem though that at least one of the 3 cliffhangers from Dance with Dragons will be resolved by the show this season - The Battle of Winterfell. I bet they'll show us the actual victor.

[bronconick]

The fighting pits scene (was it rewritten to basically be "pre-season"?) was comically bad. I guess they were running low on the CG budget or something and couldn't do an actual arena.


It was like when Maximus had to start in a shitty backwater ring before getting to the Colisseum.

[Vince, Pt. II]

Wasn't that the point though? Hizdahr even mentioned that it was tradition to visit the lower fighting pits to pay respects while they walked up.

[NobodyHere]

It was like when Maximus had to start in a shitty backwater ring before getting to the Colisseum.

However I was entertained.

[Grover]

It does seem though that at least one of the 3 cliffhangers from Dance with Dragons will be resolved by the show this season - The Battle of Winterfell. I bet they'll show us the actual victor.

Please be Stannis.

[ISiddiqui]

Please be Stannis.

Word.

Though I wonder if it even could be possible that Ramsey wins, story wise. In the books, after all, Sansa is no where near the North. Jon has been stabbed (though we all expect he comes back). Theon is with Stannis. Asha/Yaya is with Stannis. If Ramsey wins, the entire North (below the Wall that is) is just a super boring story line with no POV characters.

[sabotai]

It would be one way to eliminate a bunch of POV characters as he tries to head towards the end of the series.

[Alan T]

The boltons winning and really horrible things happening is probably one of the things that I would least want to have happen. So based on past history every single plot turn causing me anguish, I am just holding my breath waiting for stannis to lose and Ramsey find some way to take super uncomfortableness to a new level.

[Edward64]

The boltons winning and really horrible things happening is probably one of the things that I would least want to have happen. So based on past history every single plot turn causing me anguish, I am just holding my breath waiting for stannis to lose and Ramsey find some way to take super uncomfortableness to a new level.

I'm not convinced that Stannis will win. However, Dany has to be part of the winner's circle eventually.

[Honolulu_Blue]

The fighting pits scene (was it rewritten to basically be "pre-season"?) was comically bad. I guess they were running low on the CG budget or something and couldn't do an actual arena.

Yeah, that wasn't the actual scene from the books. That was a low-level, cheap little side of the road pit. As noted above, it was explained.

[Honolulu_Blue]

As much as I loved finally seeing Dany and Tyrion meet face-to-face, I feel like it was the first thing that I really would have liked to have read first before seeing.

[ISiddiqui]

It would be one way to eliminate a bunch of POV characters as he tries to head towards the end of the series.

Not necessarily. The only POV characters in Stannis's camp at the moment is Theon/Reek and Asha. Remember that Davos is out in Skagos trying to find Rickon to bring back to Wyman Manderly.

[ISiddiqui]

Thinking about this... the show could totally do the Bastard's Letter as a cliffhanger for the season. Episode 9 be the Battle of Winterfell, leave it as inconclusive, and then in Episode 10, Jon returns to Castle Black, gets the letter and decides to march on Winterfell, leading to the Mutiny of Castle Black (though it won't be nearly as powerful as you won't have a crying Donal Noye saying "For the Watch" as he does it).

[Coffee Warlord]

I'm still betting episode 10 will be titled "For the Watch"

[ISiddiqui]

Huh, I guess I could have looked for episode titles to find out what was going to happen...

Ep 8 is "Hardholme" - ie, where Jon is going to meet with Rattleshirt.

Ep 9 is "The Dance of Dragons" - so I guess the big scene is going to be focused on the Grand Fighting Pit and not the Battle of Winterfell - but usually Ep 9 of a season has one major focus. Maybe they'll split the focus?

[Grover]

Where was Cersei left off in the books?

The last I remember is her being marched naked through the streets.

Interesting that they were able to skip the entire Kettleblacks plotline through the use of Lancel.

[ISiddiqui]

Cersei basically realizes that while she felt she could do the walk head held high, that this completely takes away her power. She understands that she becomes a laughing stock to the people and therefore her ability to lead is compromised. Kevan starts basically running things, along with Grand Maester Pycelle.

At the end of Dance it appears that Cersei has to be forced into leading again, but now her confidence is shot and she has no respect from anyone.

[Grover]

Cersei basically realizes that while she felt she could do the walk head held high, that this completely takes away her power. She understands that she becomes a laughing stock to the people and therefore her ability to lead is compromised. Kevan starts basically running things, along with Grand Maester Pycelle.

At the end of Dance it appears that Cersei has to be forced into leading again, but now her confidence is shot and she has no respect from anyone.

Ah, yes.

I'm assuming they really won't need to use Kevan, now that they have Tommen of ruling age.

[ISiddiqui]

Crud... that takes away my favorite chapter of Dance :(

(though maybe Kevan comes back to help Tommen and express outrage at the Faith Militant?)

[Grover]

Crud... that takes away my favorite chapter of Dance :(

(though maybe Kevan comes back to help Tommen and express outrage at the Faith Militant?)

One is hoping.

As an aside, I love Jonathan Pryce as the High Sparrow.

He comes across as both completely reasonable and terrifying at the same time.

[Coffee Warlord]

I don't think we'll see a Kevan with no Varys around.

[Honolulu_Blue]

I don't think we'll see a Kevan with no Varys around.

Maybe Varys will decide to head back to King's Landing since he lost Tyrion and hang around in disguise like Lando at Jabba's Palace.

[HomerSimpson98]

Cersei basically realizes that while she felt she could do the walk head held high, that this completely takes away her power. She understands that she becomes a laughing stock to the people and therefore her ability to lead is compromised. Kevan starts basically running things, along with Grand Maester Pycelle.

At the end of Dance it appears that Cersei has to be forced into leading again, but now her confidence is shot and she has no respect from anyone.

Interesting take. I remember walking away from the end thinking that Cersei is going to go absolutely apeshit and lay waste to the place. I see a similar fate as the Mad King ending in her future.

Also, and this thought came to me out of the blue, but does anyone else think that Varys may be apart of The Many Face dudes? His ability to float in and out of trouble is well documented, although not he's not really disappearing like Jaqar (or whatever his name is). And he relies on his contacts, which is the exact opposite of them as well. Bah, nevermind :)

[BishopMVP]

Maybe Varys will decide to head back to King's Landing since he lost Tyrion and hang around in disguise like Lando at Jabba's Palace.I'm still waiting for the Pycelle scene that justifies the one showing him faking the extent of his infirmities.

Had another thought while posting in the GoT thread - is Jorah now in line to release Dany's dragons or somehow help save her at the fighting pits? I mean, he'll likely be in the same dungeons, and now with his greyscale he's got added motivation to make a huge sacrifice sometime soon.

[NobodyHere]

Did Jorah get greyscale in the book?

[sabotai]

Did Jorah get greyscale in the book?

No, Jon Connington was the one with greyscale. In the books, Jorah took Tyrion after his (Tyrion's) encounter with the stone men.

[Vince, Pt. II]

And if you're unfamiliar with the books, Jon Connington is obviously not in the show.

[ISiddiqui]

Had another thought while posting in the GoT thread - is Jorah now in line to release Dany's dragons or somehow help save her at the fighting pits? I mean, he'll likely be in the same dungeons, and now with his greyscale he's got added motivation to make a huge sacrifice sometime soon.

Jorah may take on Barristan Selmy's role. After Drogon rescues Dany at the fighting pits, Jorah may declare himself Hand of the Queen and lead the defense of Meereen - then again, we haven't seen any evidence that the Wise Masters of Yunkai are buying an army to retake Meereen.

[ISiddiqui]

The casting news for Season 6 seems to indicate that Euron is finally coming to the show... (hopefully they also cast Victarion).

Season 6 Game of Thrones Casting News Brings a Long-Buried Plot Back from the Dead | Vanity Fair (http://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2015/05/game-of-thrones-season-6-casting-greyjoys-tarlys)

It also appears that the Tarlys may be showing up. Sam to Oldtown was bound to happen at some point, I figure.

[BishopMVP]

Jorah may take on Barristan Selmy's role. After Drogon rescues Dany at the fighting pits, Jorah may declare himself Hand of the Queen and lead the defense of Meereen - then again, we haven't seen any evidence that the Wise Masters of Yunkai are buying an army to retake Meereen.I always thought Tyrion would be that one, with Jorah now filling the Quentyn Martell role, but maybe he'll also take on Sir Belwas' and save her from an assassination attempt before the real one at the pit.

[sabotai]

If they cast for Euron, I guess that would answer the Euron = Daario theory (unless they explain his different appearance with magic and Daario soon makes an exit from Meereen.)

[flere-imsaho]

Here's my predictions:

1. Jon dies in Episode 8 and we don't see him for the rest of the season. He gets revived (or something) by an all-powerful Bran in Season 6, however, and something something Rickon.

2. Episode 9 has Jorah (who looks pretty desperate) fulfilling Quentyn's BBQ role and ending with Dany and Drogon flying off. We either don't see her again this season (which really fucks show-watchers off) or we do, but it's at the end of Episode 10 when she's found by the blood riders.

[Vince, Pt. II]

I never even thought of Jorah as Quentyn, but that's brilliant.

[Coffee Warlord]

Hardhome, Dance of Dragons, and Mother's Mercy are the last 3 episode names.

I was REALLY expecting 9 or 10 to be For the Watch. I'm guessing 9 is when Dany flies off, 10...not sure now.

[ISiddiqui]

Can we make Daaario as Quentyn? ;)

I'd actually prefer if Jorah stuck around. Dany, Jorah, Tyrion, and perhaps Varys would actually make an interesting dynamic rather than the usual boring Dany storyline.

[Vince, Pt. II]

10 has to be Arya, right?

[ISiddiqui]

Hardhome, Dance of Dragons, and Mother's Mercy are the last 3 episode names.

I was REALLY expecting 9 or 10 to be For the Watch. I'm guessing 9 is when Dany flies off, 10...not sure now.

Not saying this is going to happen, but... in the Appendix of A Feast for Crows:

LADY STONEHEART, a hooded woman, sometimes called MOTHER MERCY, THE SILENT SISTER, and THE HANGWOMAN

:eek:

[Vince, Pt. II]

As a storyline that I and my roommate have been very sad to have seen left off, that would be an awesome cliffhanger.

[sabotai]

The High Sparrow mentioned people getting the "Mother's Mercy" when talking about people who confess. The title could be about Cersei's stroll through the city.

[Vince, Pt. II]

Damn, hopes dashed.

[stevew]

Why doesn't the high sparrow have a star? Is that only for the nobility people?

[BishopMVP]

I never even thought of Jorah as Quentyn, but that's brilliant.I never even contemplated it until that greyscale scene. But if I've learned one thing from these show runners, it's that if they show something (like Bronn getting scratched) it will matter. For Wire fans, there's no Rawls hanging out in a gay bar type moments that are never referred to again.

Flere - Bran? I think everyone assumes Jon isn't dead, but I thought the Warging into his direwolf theory was the popular one - why else have those chapters with the wargs?

[Grover]

Why doesn't the high sparrow have a star? Is that only for the nobility people?

I think it's a right of passage for the followers and militia?

https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xap1/v/t1.0-9/11227912_852047218181625_7980126609369629861_n.jpg?oh=5e771e3d95fab86ffd392601ed0ae150&oe=55F14915

[Coffee Warlord]

I never even contemplated it until that greyscale scene. But if I've learned one thing from these show runners, it's that if they show something (like Bronn getting scratched) it will matter. For Wire fans, there's no Rawls hanging out in a gay bar type moments that are never referred to again.

Flere - Bran? I think everyone assumes Jon isn't dead, but I thought the Warging into his direwolf theory was the popular one - why else have those chapters with the wargs?

I actually had long thought that Melisandre was gonna wind up rezzing Jon.

[ISiddiqui]

Though with Mel going South with Stannis, she's not going to be there when Jon gets stabbed.

[ISiddiqui]

So Valyrian Steel can kill an Other... that's new.

[Coffee Warlord]

So Valyrian Steel can kill an Other... that's new.

Not necessarily. It's been awhile, but I recall it being mentioned in the books as working similar to dragonglass.

[sabotai]

In a Feast For Crows, Sam reads about dragonsteel when researching ways to combat the Others, which he and Jon Snow think could be Valyrian steel (and it seems the show just confirmed that).

Valyrian steel - A Wiki of Ice and Fire - A Song of Ice and Fire & Game of Thrones (http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Valyrian_steel)

[Simbo Klice]

There's actually a clue in the very first prologue- before the Other engages Waymar Royce he takes a careful glance at his blade.

[ISiddiqui]

At the very least, it was speculated, but never confirmed until now.

[ISiddiqui]

There's actually a clue in the very first prologue- before the Other engages Waymar Royce he takes a careful glance at his blade.

That's cool - I just reread that passage right now. Damn, no wonder it takes so long to write these books, there is a ton of foreshadowing involved.

[Chief Rum]

I can't wait for next week's episode.

[saldana]

what the hell was that...when did Game of Thrones become The Walking Dead. am i the only one that thought that was horrible?

[spleen1015]

what the hell was that...when did Game of Thrones become The Walking Dead. am i the only one that thought that was horrible?

I was disappointed to see that the White Walker army is a bunch of skeleton warriors/zombies. I thought they would all be the white dudes with blue eyes.

[Honolulu_Blue]

I was disappointed to see that the White Walker army is a bunch of skeleton warriors/zombies. I thought they would all be the white dudes with blue eyes.

No. The White Walkers themselves have always been the minority in terms of the army. The bulk of the army itself are the undead.

[Honolulu_Blue]

what the hell was that...when did Game of Thrones become The Walking Dead. am i the only one that thought that was horrible?

Perhaps? I thought it was fantastic. Some are calling it the best episode ever. The battle scene was breathtaking. It was magnificently shot. There were a ton of great, heroic moments. The giant, the wildling woman, the Thenn.

The White Walkers and their undead zombie/skeleton army have always sort of been the main threat. We just have never really seen them in action until now.

[sabotai]

I liked the battle scene, but the part with the zombie children was really cheesy.

[saldana]

The White Walkers and their undead zombie/skeleton army have always sort of been the main threat. We just have never really seen them in action until now.
i guess i need to go back and re-read the books then...i dont remember an undead army like that existing in the books.

[ISiddiqui]

Them being a massive threat and actually seeing the army don't necessarily follow from each other. I think though it seems to be obvious that the main battle will be against the Others and their wights.

In addition, in the books as Jon gets stabbed, he has sent Tormund to Hardhome to bring those Wildlings back - so we likely have been spoiled as to something that will be written out in Winds of Winter.

[JeeberD]

i guess i need to go back and re-read the books then...i dont remember an undead army like that existing in the books.

Battle of the Fist of the First Men - Game of Thrones Wiki (http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Battle_of_the_Fist_of_the_First_Men)

Samwell hides behind a rock because he is unable to catch up to the other boys. An army of undead wights marches beside him, heading towards the Fist of the First Men.

[flere-imsaho]

Flere - Bran? I think everyone assumes Jon isn't dead, but I thought the Warging into his direwolf theory was the popular one - why else have those chapters with the wargs?

I was talking about the show, tbh. My speculation Jon would die in episode 8 was clearly wrong, but I'm still pretty confident he'll die in some way this season, and then not "re-appear" until next season. The question is how?

One option is that he's stabbed, but not killed (could hold true for book or show). So there's a dramatic scene, and then we have to wait (shorter wait for show watchers!) to find out that he lives.

One option is revival via Melisandre, as people have mentioned, but in both the book and the show she appears to be too far away.

The warging option is another one, but seems better supported in the book than in the show, where references to warging outside of Bran (who's clearly more special than that) are pretty oblique. But then again the show could visually show Jon warging into Ghost and thus explain the whole thing much quicker/easier than the written word. Strength of the medium and all that.

Anyway, all your guesses are as good as mine. Except that one about Jorah being BBQed. I'm sticking by that one. :D

[sabotai]

I thought that Melisandre was still at Castle Black in the books when Jon got stabbed.

[ISiddiqui]

She is. She stays behind while Stannis marches because she sees something in Jon Snow. Also, Shireen and Queen Selyse are back at Dragonstone in the books.

[sabotai]

Anyway, all your guesses are as good as mine. Except that one about Jorah being BBQed. I'm sticking by that one. :D

I'd bet on it at this point. It's going to happen next week (considering what the title of the episode is) and there's no one else around to release the dragons, and no reason to keep him around after so up in flames he's gonna go.

I also think we don't see the battle of Winterfell this season. I think Brianne will get Reek and Sansa out of Winterfell before the battle happens and something will cause Melisandre to head back to Castle Black just in time to see Jon get stabbed by Olly. And we'll definitely know that will happen is we get the scene between Melisandre and Thoros with Beric Dondarrion during the "Previously on Game of Thrones..." part. (Wouldn't be surprised if Mel rezzing Jon is the very last scene of the season).

Hardhome was this episode, the dragons get release next episode and Cercei's naked mile will be in the final episode. I'm thinking the writers are going to save the battle of Winterfell (if it even happens) for early next season. They might even just bypass the battle all together and just have Brianne (or Sansa, or Reek) kill Ramsay (and maybe Roose) when she saves Sansa, negating the need for the battle.

[ISiddiqui]

Well according to the description for Ep 10, "Stannis Marches" is part of it. So if they save the battle, they do seem to intend to have one at some point.

[BishopMVP]

what the hell was that...when did Game of Thrones become The Walking Dead. am i the only one that thought that was horrible?Walking Dead? More like Evil Dead - I kept wondering when Bruce Campbell and his boomstick were showing up! I always thought the undead would be slower, but I've come around a little and it definitely makes for a different threat level than Walking Dead-esque shambling zombies. The complete unwillingness of them to even enter the water made things a little absurd - I get that the water is cold, but you didn't even need to get in a boat, just swim out to the boats or even just wade 2 feet in haha.

[JeeberD]

Can skeletons swim? They don't have any parts that would float. The fresher wights though, yes.

[bronconick]

Can skeletons swim? They don't have any parts that would float. The fresher wights though, yes.


I just had the dumb assumption that the WW army was just waiting for the water to freeze to ice.

[Vince, Pt. II]

I was kind of hoping the head dude would go path of frost status and just start walking on the Ocean as it started freezing under his feet.

[Atocep]

So it just me or are the Unsullied in the show a slight step up from stormtroopers?

[ISiddiqui]

Basically.

Also I really hate the show for what its done to Stannis.

[Chief Rum]

Basically.

Also I really hate the show for what its done to Stannis.

Of course you do. You're a Stannis fan boy. ;)

(FTR, I too think Stannis has much more subtle quality in the books than he is given credit for in the show...)

[ISiddiqui]

Yes, I am totally on board on the Stannis fan club.

But also... it seems completely out of character. Who kills their heir?

[Chief Rum]

Yes, I am totally on board on the Stannis fan club.

But also... it seems completely out of character. Who kills their heir?

Stannis!

Seriously, though, as that Youtube video suggested, it appears that George was the source on that one so we might be seeing some WOW material there.

As for his heir, best guesses...

1. He thinks as Azor Ahai, he will live forever (or be resurrected forever)
2. He'll get one on with his red priestess and then name the resulting child a Baratheon instead of a Storm.

:D

[ISiddiqui]

Yeah, but Shireen is at Castle Black with Selyse and Melissandre. I can see the burning, but I'm thinking Stannis doesn't come up with the idea himself and send a raven to Castle Black going "burn the girl". I'm guessing the idea originates with a person who likes burning things.

[Grover]

Yes, I am totally on board on the Stannis fan club.

But also... it seems completely out of character. Who kills their heir?

I've been puzzled by this too.

Melissandre calling for another of royal blood over and over again. She's obviously the one to blame here. The Bolton raid absolutely forced Stannis' hand into doing it.

I really hope we get to see Ramsay taken out by a shadow knight. That would be excellent.

[Neon_Chaos]

Episode 10 of the TV show is Mother's Mercy.

If Stoneheart shows up, I will be ecstatic.

[flere-imsaho]

In the book, Stannis' situation seems even more dire than as portrayed in the show, so I could see him resorting to extreme measures. But I kind of suspect the show next week will show something pretty significant resulting from the sacrifice, so the point of the magic will be explained.

IMO, the show is doing a good job portraying the Unsullied. They are battlefield soldiers, trained to be anonymous, interlocking elements of a whole. As a result, they have little to no "individual fighting" training, and are completely out of their element being city guards.

The problem is that this concept, based on historical units, is not well understood by most show watchers.

Plus, the fight in the arena was pure "one guy at a time!" trope-ism. Which didn't help.

[Coffee Warlord]

Episode 10 of the TV show is Mother's Mercy.

If Stoneheart shows up, I will be ecstatic.

Nah, we'll get...some Walking, some Stabbing, some Gifting, and whatever the fuck Stannis is gonna do.

[NobodyHere]

Fuck. I really want to be an tin foil hat guy.
But I have actual college things to do.
Sorry Guys.

[Atocep]

IMO, the show is doing a good job portraying the Unsullied. They are battlefield soldiers, trained to be anonymous, interlocking elements of a whole. As a result, they have little to no "individual fighting" training, and are completely out of their element being city guards.

The problem is that this concept, based on historical units, is not well understood by most show watchers.

Plus, the fight in the arena was pure "one guy at a time!" trope-ism. Which didn't help.

From what we know of the harpies, it's not like they're fighting against a group trained in guerrilla tactics. The unsullied are trained as light infantry fighters that excel in phalanx formation with sword and spear but also have close quarters training with shortswords.

The arena fight was a good chance for the unsullied to shine based on their training. They didn't. The fight where Selmy died was also a fight that portrayed them as a little more than stormtroopers when they should have been much more effective.

Yes, they should fail spectacularly as city guards but in the 2 encounters where their training should have been useful they were nothing more than fodder.

[Chief Rum]

From what we know of the harpies, it's not like they're fighting against a group trained in guerrilla tactics. The unsullied are trained as light infantry fighters that excel in phalanx formation with sword and spear but also have close quarters training with shortswords.

The arena fight was a good chance for the unsullied to shine based on their training. They didn't. The fight where Selmy died was also a fight that portrayed them as a little more than stormtroopers when they should have been much more effective.

Yes, they should fail spectacularly as city guards but in the 2 encounters where their training should have been useful they were nothing more than fodder.

They're not carrying short swords are they?

I mean, I kinda buy into your thinking but the two situations you throw out don't really apply to your logic. In the hallway with Ser Barristan, they were in tight quarters and massively outnumbered. In the arena, there were too few of them to form a phalanx of any sort, and again they were massively outnumbered (and protecting the queen and her closest advisers). In both cases, they don't have short swords but the longer battle swords.

I entirely see issues with them performing well in either situation, given what we know about them and their history as fighters.

I have issues with the decisions to use the Unsullied as city guards and to bring so few to the first fighting pits games, but I don't find their performance as fighters in those two situations as logically inconsistent.

[ISiddiqui]

Anyways, I've taken up re-reading the books again. I paused after Storm of Swords to read some sci-fi ("Station Eleven" - a great book that I recommend very much) and now am back. It's A Feast for Crows time! And it's also a far, far, far better book than I remembered it.

I always took the position that FFC suffered due to A) the absurdly long wait for it, and B) the fact that its a slowing down of the narrative to look at the aftermath of war rather than moment after moment. I agree with both of these sentiments even more, but I also will add that I think some people got bored of the book due to two further factors (I'll continue my lettering): C) the chapters are much longer than the chapters in any other books - what I mean is that they are perhaps twice the size of the chapters in the other books and the reason is, D) The chapters are far more introspective.

What I'm really, really enjoying about FFC is not only does it show what a waste the land has become (and Septon Meribald's speech in one of Brienne's chapters of why broken men deserve pity as well as wariness is as masterful an anti-war speech I may have read in any book), but also it plums far more into the minds of its POV characters as they figure out how they fit into this new world. They knew how to fit into the pre-War world and they knew how to fit into the War world. But the post-War world, they are struggling to find themselves.

In a couple words: Character Development!! I think there is quite a bit more character development than in other epic fantasy and far more than in any of the other books so far. Brienne and Jaime both are struggling but moving forward in new, unfamiliar roles, and it's fascinating to read.

Similar (but not as pronounced) can apply to the situations of Sam and Arya who are in very new and different situations (both in Braavos!) that they find difficult to navigate and understand.

Then you add in the first POV chapters of Cersei, which show her to be even more paranoid and fearful as previous assumed. Ignoring good advice by Jaime (who shows he was indeed listening to his father at times) in order to staff her "smallest council" with yes people. Almost Nixonian in her paranoia and the writing is on the wall very, very early in the book as she tries to wage a clumsy war against the beloved Tyrells. And some of the 'news from Essos' she ignores, as Qyburn tries to tell her is even more hilarious after you've read Dance with Dragons and realize that this seemingly random stuff is actually quite major (she ignores the Golden Company breaking its contract for one).

And, as I've mentioned, I really enjoy both Dorne and the Iron Islands for how different their societies are compared to the rest of Westeros. I find it sad that they changed Dorne so much in the show. The book plot of Dorne was so action laden and fun - especially the part of Arianne trying to smuggle Myrcella away to Western Dorne with the help of Kingsguard Arys Oakheart and the Darkstar, two potentially fantastic casting coups (and really Arys would only need to be around for like 4 eps).

[Grover]

Completely unrelated to ASOIF, I recently read Station Eleven as well. Loved it.

[ISiddiqui]

So, the first time I read the chapter on Brienne on the Quiet Isle, I think I was rushing through, looking for action (ie, the exact wrong way to read the, as I now think of it, brilliant A Feast for Crows). So I missed what was there in plain sight. Only later, reading about the book and looking for discussions on the book did I come across the notion that the gravedigger was... the Hound (#Cleganebowl2016).

Reading it again, slower and for what it is, it pops out at you. The gravedigger is bigger than Brienne, he's limping badly, and stops to pet Septon Meribald's dog (kind of on the nose, GRRM... but then again, I missed it first time out). Then the Elder Brother seemingly knows way too much about the Sandor and Arya and while he does mention "the man is dead" he also pauses and says "he's at rest" when Brienne exclaims "Sandor Clegane is dead?". And the Elder Brother talks about his tale, which involves him saying that he died on the Trident to be basically reborn as a Brother of Quiet Isle. In the same way, it appears The Hound has died, but Sandor Clegane has been reborn.


In addition, I'm more and more impressed with the Cersei chapters. Most POV characters are kind of similar in their look at the world (for the most part - Brienne is more guarded), but Cersei is FAR different than anyone else. Her POV chapters are extremely paranoid and in that paranoia she makes bad decision after bad decision while thinking she's winning (it's only after we know what's coming that we realize just HOW bad her decision making has been). It's incredibly fascinating.

[Honolulu_Blue]

So, the first time I read the chapter on Brienne on the Quiet Isle, I think I was rushing through, looking for action (ie, the exact wrong way to read the, as I now think of it, brilliant A Feast for Crows). So I missed what was there in plain sight. Only later, reading about the book and looking for discussions on the book did I come across the notion that the gravedigger was... the Hound (#Cleganebowl2016).

Reading it again, slower and for what it is, it pops out at you. The gravedigger is bigger than Brienne, he's limping badly, and stops to pet Septon Meribald's dog (kind of on the nose, GRRM... but then again, I missed it first time out). Then the Elder Brother seemingly knows way too much about the Sandor and Arya and while he does mention "the man is dead" he also pauses and says "he's at rest" when Brienne exclaims "Sandor Clegane is dead?". And the Elder Brother talks about his tale, which involves him saying that he died on the Trident to be basically reborn as a Brother of Quiet Isle. In the same way, it appears The Hound has died, but Sandor Clegane has been reborn.


In addition, I'm more and more impressed with the Cersei chapters. Most POV characters are kind of similar in their look at the world (for the most part - Brienne is more guarded), but Cersei is FAR different than anyone else. Her POV chapters are extremely paranoid and in that paranoia she makes bad decision after bad decision while thinking she's winning (it's only after we know what's coming that we realize just HOW bad her decision making has been). It's incredibly fascinating.

We were discussing the Hound thing and more almost nine and a half years ago now!

A Feast For Crows: **WARNING THERE BE MASSIVE SPOILERS IN THIS THREAD!!** - Front Office Football Central (http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/showthread.php?p=992764&highlight=feast#post992764)

[ISiddiqui]

Yes... that was my point. I didn't notice it until I read discussions online.

[ISiddiqui]

This book is making me really, really dislike the show. There is SO much great stuff in A Feast for Crows. I just read the chapter where Jamie channels Tywin Lannister in ending the siege of Riverrun (without breaking his vow to Catelyn). I could just picture the potential scene chewing that could have been done when Jamie tells Edmure what would happen if Edmure didn't surrender the castle when he sent him back to Riverrun.

At the very least that would have been far better than the Dornish mistake in the last season of the show.

Also I had forgotten that Cersei actually did have a bit of circumstantial proof that Margaery was sleeping around. It wasn't just an Anne Boleyn like snowjob, but that Grand Maester Pycelle was actually providing her with Moon Tea (which is only used for one thing). So that was somewhat interesting. Of course Cersei is still insanely paranoid... its going to be fun to see how that goes into overdrive after she finds out that Kevan and Pycelle have been killed.

[ISiddiqui]

Yeah, Dance with Dragons is really kind of a moving pieces around for no reason type of book in its first 2/3rds. Feast for Crows was just so much more interesting - what with in depth inner character monologues showcasing real character development and showing the ravages of war. Dance is just people doing stuff to do stuff. It's not overly dull, but it is a bit long in tooth - not the Tyrion boat ride as much as Jon just going back and forth doing various nothings on the Wall.

[Groundhog]

For me, from the very first page, A Feast for Crows felt jarringly different from all the other books, especially far as the Dorne/Iron Islands chapters are concerned. There was a real need to explore both those places, but it just didn't do anything for me. That combined with the fact that a few of my favourite characters didn't appear, yet one of my least favourites (Arya) did, really made this a slog for me. I flew through the other books, but I kept looking down at the 'time left in book' status message on my kindle as I flicked the pages.

I don't think A Dance with Dragons was amazing either, but I enjoyed parts of it well enough - more so than Feast for Crows, at least.

In general though I think that after book 3, this has had the feel of those fantasy 'epics' that just seem to roll on and on - lots of descriptive paragraphs and chess pieces being moved around, but chapter after chapter of what, at times, feels like text for text's sake - world building over plot.

If it had ended at book 3 (obviously with a 'grander' finale) I'd think it's one of the greatest stories of all time, but now the other books have tainted it a little bit.

I'm on the fence as to whether I would read the next book.

[JPhillips]

Just look at how much the tv series cut from Dance. Some of that may make it's way into next season, but right now the show could move forward and completely skip much of Dance's plots. If they are following the critical components needed to reach Martin's idea of the resolution, that means a large part of the book was text for text's sake.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Just look at how much the tv series cut from Dance. Some of that may make it's way into next season, but right now the show could move forward and completely skip much of Dance's plots. If they are following the critical components needed to reach Martin's idea of the resolution, that means a large part of the book was text for text's sake.

That's one of the main issues I have with large chunks of Dance.

For example, what does all of the Quentyn Martel stuff lead up to? It was like a little side quest by a bunch of characters we didn't really know and weren't terribly interesting that ended with the main character in that quest being burned alive by a dragon. Okay...

Then take Aegon or the whole Big Griff/Little Griff plot. I'll start by saying that I like Big Griff as a character. He is one of the more compelling new characters from the last two books. However, let's say Little Griff really is Aegon.

There are two paths the character takes. One, is that he does his rebellion, it gets crushed and not much happens. That's largely a waste of text, unless it ends up being very interesting or cool. It hasn't been so far.

The other is that Aegon actually does conquer and plays an important role in major events. That's annoying because why introduce a character in Book 5 who plays such a role when you have a lot of other characters from earlier in the series who don't seem to be doing much of anything on the grand stage.

I hope the whole Aegon plot plays out more interesting than it has. If not... Hrmmm...

[ISiddiqui]

For me, from the very first page, A Feast for Crows felt jarringly different from all the other books, especially far as the Dorne/Iron Islands chapters are concerned.

Yep. And that's part of what I loved about it. Also the chapters were far longer than any of the other books and the inner motivations of the characters (especially Jaime and Brienne) were explored in detail. It was absorbing and fascinating for me.

[ISiddiqui]

For example, what does all of the Quentyn Martel stuff lead up to? It was like a little side quest by a bunch of characters we didn't really know and weren't terribly interesting that ended with the main character in that quest being burned alive by a dragon. Okay...

Could have been written better, true, but I think actually it would have worked a LOT better if the original idea of a chronological books would have been done, rather than splitting one story into two haves (or if you read them deliberately recalling what was going on in Dorne at the time).

Because at the time, Arienne was pissed because she thought Doran was giving Dorne to Quentyn - we know what Quentyn is really up to because we heard Doran's badass speech at the end of Feast. But if Quentyn's quest is interspersed with Arienne's uncertainty and not knowing what Doran was really thinking, I believe that whole plot line is far more interesting.

In essence Arienne and Quentyn are both in existence in these books to show what Doran has been plotting and planning this entire time (though Arienne obviously has more to do).

Then take Aegon or the whole Big Griff/Little Griff plot. I'll start by saying that I like Big Griff as a character. He is one of the more compelling new characters from the last two books. However, let's say Little Griff really is Aegon.

There are two paths the character takes. One, is that he does his rebellion, it gets crushed and not much happens. That's largely a waste of text, unless it ends up being very interesting or cool. It hasn't been so far.

The other is that Aegon actually does conquer and plays an important role in major events. That's annoying because why introduce a character in Book 5 who plays such a role when you have a lot of other characters from earlier in the series who don't seem to be doing much of anything on the grand stage.

I've never gotten the criticism of why introduce a character in Book 5 thing. It's an epic world, people will shift in and shift out. I mean, Stannis was introduced in Book 2 (yes, I know people talked him about a little in Book 1). Mance Rayder was introduced in Book 3. Everyone in Dorne and the Iron Islands gets introduced in Book 4 (and no one mentioned Arianne or Euron prior to that book).

And we know that Aegon's Re-Conquest actually does succeed at Griffin's Roost at the end of Dance. We know from the sample chapter of Winds of Winter, that he's supposedly at Storm's End. I feel Aegon actually has a big role regardless of whether he fails - at the very least he gains the eye of Cersei who may ignore other threats. And he may spur Dany onto Westeros (speaking of a dull character arc).

FWIW, while the boat chapters are mostly dull, after they leave the boat, things get interesting and fun (when Connington meets up with the Golden Company, etc).

If they are following the critical components needed to reach Martin's idea of the resolution, that means a large part of the book was text for text's sake.

I don't think that makes much sense. I mean would you claim that the Lady Stoneheart plot arc was just text for text sake? Or Sansa learning how to play the Game of Thrones from Littlefinger?

The show sometimes cuts interesting and good story lines because it wants to rush to the end. The critical components alone don't necessarily make a story compelling.

[Vince, Pt. II]

I've never gotten the criticism of why introduce a character in Book 5 thing. It's an epic world, people will shift in and shift out. I mean, Stannis was introduced in Book 2 (yes, I know people talked him about a little in Book 1). Mance Rayder was introduced in Book 3. Everyone in Dorne and the Iron Islands gets introduced in Book 4 (and no one mentioned Arianne or Euron prior to that book).

While I agree wholeheartedly regarding Quentyn, I take issue with this. Mance Rayder and Stannis Baratheon were real, tangible characters who were talked about A LOT in the books leading up to their actual introduction. Little Griff comes so far out of nowhere that he almost feels like a deus ex machina plot device.

[ISiddiqui]

They actually weren't talked about that often. Stannis, IIRC, was mentioned like 3-4 times in Book 1 at most.

And as I pointed out in my re-read of Storm of Swords and, especially, Feast for Crows, Jon Connington is mentioned a LOT. Random mentions of him come out of no where - Jamie is sitting at Harrenhal with Red Connington and they have discussion of Jon.

And of course Aegon was mentioned quite a bit. His death is alluded to quite a bit in Dorne. He's just considered dead.

[ISiddiqui]

FWIW, I think the Connington / Aegon reveal gets more interesting if Martin wrote Feast and Dance chronologically rather than geographically. I think he royally screwed up there. In that case, references to Connington in Feast don't get ignored so easily and Connington & Aegon are introduced in the same book as the Dornish and Iron Islanders - Book 4 seems like the start of a new part of the story in that way. Geographically splitting it messes all that careful writing, especially since they came out years apart.

[Groundhog]

I've never gotten the criticism of why introduce a character in Book 5 thing. It's an epic world, people will shift in and shift out. I mean, Stannis was introduced in Book 2 (yes, I know people talked him about a little in Book 1). Mance Rayder was introduced in Book 3. Everyone in Dorne and the Iron Islands gets introduced in Book 4 (and no one mentioned Arianne or Euron prior to that book).

I got no problem with introducing new characters in book 5 or any other book of the series - I do have a problem with it being at the exclusion of other characters that I've become attached to during the first couple of thousands of pages of the series.

It's a big world, sure, but it's also a fictional story. I've been reading these characters for thousands of pages and I'm a lot more interested in what's happening in Westeros than I am in Dorne or, even more so, across the sea. The initial outline of ASoIaF was a trilogy, and I would've preferred it if the Westeros saga had wrapped up there, with him then free to take the sequels anywhere he wanted with whichever characters he wanted.

I'm sure others disagree, but to me I think he felt the need to extend the series largely because he wanted to explore the rest of his fictional world, which has made it a little like the equivalent of a TV series that had a clear outline and then kept getting extended and drifting away from the initial conclusion. It's a fantastic universe that he has created, no question, but I'd prefer it was explored within the confines of the main plot, rather than by the rapid introduction of new characters, factions, and cultures.

I don't read Fantasy in general because this is how most I've tried tend to feel to me after a few books - I guess 'worldbuilding for worldbuilding's sake' is more accurate.

[ISiddiqui]

Which I guess is fine, but some of us really love that worldbuilding.

[ISiddiqui]

Interesting stuff from GRRM, one acknowledging that the show will likely finish before the books (well, duh), but also:

HBO Might Finish “Game Of Thrones” Before George R.R. Martin Does (http://uproxx.com/tv/2015/08/hbo-may-finish-game-of-thrones-before-george-r-r-martin/)
Martin also said that the upcoming sixth season will also continue to diverge from the source material, citing the omission of Arianne Martell from the television series and admitting that the show may look for a “quicker alternative route” for the race to the Iron Throne.

It appears Arianne is actually someone who continues to be mega important. And while the end may be the same, they way getting there may be completely different. Which is very interesting - the spoiler may be just who wins in the end, but the rest runs a very different path.

[flere-imsaho]

Someone said to me that the first three books in the series were published within 3 years of each other. Conditioned to considerable delays, I called bullshit and fulsome argument ensued. Then I looked it up: A Song of Ice and Fire - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Song_of_Ice_and_Fire#Overview)

Crap. Although not technically 3 years.

Also relevant: GRRM Has No Pages (http://theconcourse.deadspin.com/grrm-has-no-pages-1750057530)

Yet again: I have no issue whatsoever with GRRM taking whatever time he needs/wants to finish writing books. I also wouldn't hold it against him (or any other offer) to not actually finish writing a particular book or series.

No, my issue is the way he's trolled his readership over and over (though he mostly seems to have topped now) with dates and predictions on which he simply can't deliver.

Anyway, caveat over, back to the main topic.

I remain convinced that:

1. He won't actually finish the series.
2. HBO will beat him anyway.
3. Something will get published that'll be called (by him) the 6th book, but it'll be somewhat dire.
4. Novelizations of the TV show will finish the book series, if anything does. This could also be posthumous.
5. If it's not posthumous, GRRM will proclaim himself on the forefront of a new paradigm of multi-media storytelling.

[stevew]

Blame Ryan Fitzpatrick

[Julio Riddols]

I blame Daivd Winter... It all makes sense now. Delayed release dates.. Winter is coming.. I think the new book is going to be about beer tents.

[JAG]

I think 2 is guaranteed. Heck, he might not even get book 6 out before season 6, let alone book 7 by next year. I do think 7 will be quicker to finish than the last few books because he knows where he's going, just not the getting there (I feel like I probably said that about a year ago in this thread, not going back to search for it though).

2 books released over 15 years is bound to be a bit frustrating for people who like them.

From the looks of it, reading the tea leaves, book 6 seems likely to publish in 2016 though.

[Groundhog]

1. He won't actually finish the series.
2. HBO will beat him anyway.
3. Something will get published that'll be called (by him) the 6th book, but it'll be somewhat dire.
4. Novelizations of the TV show will finish the book series, if anything does. This could also be posthumous.
5. If it's not posthumous, GRRM will proclaim himself on the forefront of a new paradigm of multi-media storytelling.

I think you'll be batting 1.00.

[flere-imsaho]

Which I guess is fine, but some of us really love that worldbuilding.

I love worldbuilding too, but you can't be a great writer without finishing the story.

Frankly, it's Martin himself who's done a disservice to, er, himself. Clearly there are a lot of stories to be told about Westeros, and he's spent some time (Dunk & Egg) telling those stories as well.

Well, just imagine if he had focused on finishing up the main story. Then he'd have all this time to write short stories to flesh out the rest of Westeros, present-day and otherwise).

[JAG]

I love worldbuilding too, but you can't be a great writer without finishing the story.

Frankly, it's Martin himself who's done a disservice to, er, himself. Clearly there are a lot of stories to be told about Westeros, and he's spent some time (Dunk & Egg) telling those stories as well.

Well, just imagine if he had focused on finishing up the main story. Then he'd have all this time to write short stories to flesh out the rest of Westeros, present-day and otherwise).

You're saying he's doing himself a disservice as if you know better tha he does how he wants to live his life. I think for a time he had nothing much more than the books he was writing (he was in the zone if you want to look at it that way) and little in the way of other distractions, no one who had been hounding him for interviews for months, or requests that have gone on for over a year to speak at some convention. Now he's more of a celebrity than writer and I imagine he gets a lot more pleasure out of interacting with fans and it's a much easier life to talk about what you've done than to go grind out the rest of the series.

He's kind of like the anti-Bill Belichick. That's a guy who (at least outwardly) only really cares about coaching. He's not into autobiographies (yet), doing a million interviews other than what's required, partying in Vegas, and so on. Martin does not have a singular focus on writing as much as he can about the world he's created. Heck, he's written other books while in the middle of working on Song of Ice and Fire.

[flere-imsaho]

You're saying he's doing himself a disservice as if you know better tha he does how he wants to live his life.

I do so based on the evidence of how he's actually lived his life. As you point out, he's enjoying being a celebrity, writing screenplays for HBO, and doing short stories. If we assume he actually enjoys all that, I'm just saying that if he had buckled down and finished the saga in less than 5 books, he'd be able to do all that he's doing now, without all the opprobrium.

[Edward64]

Its obvious that he's lost the will and become too distracted to finish the series. He's disappointed his book fans but he's gained a ton of others from the HBO series (who were probably never going to read the books anyway).

Assuming he has shared with HBO how it should unfold, I'm okay with this. I've given up on him finishing the series and just want to know how it all plays out.

[ISiddiqui]

I don't think he's doing himself a disservice at all. Song of Ice and Fire is a slog - especially in keeping everyone straight and not causing butterfly effects (the checking and rechecking must be Hell). It's simply more fun and interesting sometimes to write a short story about conflicts that happened 100 years prior to the Song of Ice and Fire novels.

I enjoy living in Martin's world. I think he'll eventually finish the books, but yes, the show will definitely get there first.

[Zinto]

http://grrm.livejournal.com/465247.html

:(

[Coffee Warlord]

I am Jack's total lack of surprise.

[flere-imsaho]

I am Jack's total lack of surprise.

:+1:

[JAG]

Flere, thought this was interesting after our discussion the other day. The juggling act of Martin wanting to finish the series and 'do stuff' (albeit just one thing)


I did a lot of travelling last year. Probably too much. You don't have to chide me about that. I know, believe me, I know. I am trying to cut down on travel this year and in subsequent years, at least until Ice & Fire is done.

But it's a struggle. I love travel -- not the flying, but being there, seeing other parts of the world, meeting my readers. As a kid, I never went anywhere at all except in my imagination, so now, when I have the means, travel is hard to resist. It's a big wonderful world.

Also, I am not getting any younger (some of you love to remind me of that). Travel is fun, but it can also be taxing. I am all too aware that if I don't take some of these trips now, age and health may preclude my ever taking them. Who knows what awaits me (or you, or you, or you) five years or ten years down the road?

[hoopsguy]

I wonder if Deadspin's "There are no pages" inspired GRRM's post, as he made reference to it early in that blog entry.

[flere-imsaho]

Flere, thought this was interesting after our discussion the other day. The juggling act of Martin wanting to finish the series and 'do stuff' (albeit just one thing)

I mean, I feel for him. Since he's a) set a precedent that he writes big books (in this series, at least) with a lot of detail and b) essentially plotted out the rest of the plot, what he has in front of him is a long, hard slog to put words to paper and edit up to his standards. It's got to be a huge millstone around his neck. I don't wish that on anyone.

Plus, he's getting older. I'm sure there's part of him that's ready to buckle down and slog it out until it's done, but at what cost, when all of these fun things, which are the result of his previous hard work, are available?

If it were me, I'd swallow my pride and partner with another writer to get the last two books done, tbh, and go back to enjoying life.

[stevew]

It's crazy how quickly Bran Stark has aged. Kid is like the white Greg Oden.

[Coffee Warlord]

It's crazy how quickly Bran Stark has aged. Kid is like the white Greg Oden.

Guess it's fitting he's playing the character with mangled legs, then. :D

[Zinto]

I was holding out hope. I haven't been burned by him for anywhere as near as long as most people(I was five when a Game of Thrones was first released). I haven't watched the show yet and I am still on the fence if I am going to. I had my heart set on reading first and watching second. I just don't think the reading part is ever going to happen.

[stevew]

Guess it's fitting he's playing the character with mangled legs, then. :D

Lol, I didn't even think about that.

[Edward64]

I was holding out hope. I haven't been burned by him for anywhere as near as long as most people(I was five when a Game of Thrones was first released). I haven't watched the show yet and I am still on the fence if I am going to. I had my heart set on reading first and watching second. I just don't think the reading part is ever going to happen.

Just accept the reading part is not going to happen (there is at least 2 more books). The HBO series is worthy of watching, my suggestion is just watch it.

[Galaril]

Yeah just saw the post by Martin from the 2nd of this month on his blog and not surprised either. Also, he mentions the TV series this coming season is likely going to start to spoil the future books in some parts which kills the books for me. I will watch the series for as long as it is on enjoy that and read other things.

[PilotMan]

Just imagine how much money he is going to lose out on. I plan to still read the books, but I'm not waiting around and not watching the show either. I would think that sales would be down significantly from Dance.

[MrBug708]

I'd imagine he makes more from the hbo series

[Barkeep49]

I'd imagine he makes more from new fans created by the HBO series than from old fans who won't now read the books.

[ISiddiqui]

Looks like a new Arianne chapter (as she's getting closer to Aegon and Connington storming Storm's End) has been put up on GRRM's site:

Excerpt from the Winds of Winter | George R.R. Martin (http://www.georgerrmartin.com/excerpt-from-the-winds-of-winter/)

[flere-imsaho]

He's just basically going to publish everything on his blog at this point, right? :D

[ISiddiqui]

One chapter a year would take a while... ;)

Though it does seem that Aegon is going to have some substantial effect on the story in the books.

[Edward64]

Re-watching Season 6 right now and looking forward to tonight's premiere.

Ready to see how it ends and for the spin-offs.

[miked]

Stuck in Ireland for the next 3 weeks and can't watch my HBOgo. Grrr...

[MrBug708]

Is this going to be the official thread or will the TV one be the official thread?

[NobodyHere]

I've always thought of this thread as the official one for the books

[Chief Rum]

If I recall correctly, we keep a book and TV thread separate, since the two mediums both include elements that don't appear in the other, so, spoilers.

It's less important now, I suppose, since the TV series has caught and passed up the book series, but there are still definite spoilery things out there, so I would stick with this being the book thread, and going to find the TV thread (or creating a new one) for the HBO show.

[stevew]

Supposed ‘Game Of Thrones’ Buff Hasn’t Even Finished Books Yet - The Onion - America's Finest News Source (http://www.theonion.com/graphic/supposed-game-thrones-buff-hasnt-even-finished-boo-52942#0)

[JaneSmith]

Yesterday I saw my favorite movie Titanic (https://www.olaladirectory.com.au/titanic/). I think it's a genius film with an unpredictable plot. Do you like it?

[Lathum]

Yesterday I saw my favorite movie Titanic (https://www.olaladirectory.com.au/titanic/). I think it's a genius film with an unpredictable plot. Do you like it?

Rate The Last Movie You Watched - Front Office Football Central (https://forums.operationsports.com/fofc//showthread.php?t=41713)

[JPhillips]

That bot needs some work. Titanic is very predictable. The boat sinks.

[Edward64]

I guess its good he's finished the first book in a new duology.

I do want to read it but I'll wait until the second book has a confirmed publish date.

BTW - I really wish he would get someone else to finish writing GOT for him (like Brandon Sanderson). He should really just fess up to his fans that he just doesn't have it anymore for that series.

Fire and Blood | George R.R. Martin (http://www.georgerrmartin.com/grrm_book/fire-and-blood/)
With all the fire and fury fans have come to expect from internationally bestselling author George R. R. Martin, this is the first volume of the definitive two-part history of the Targaryens in Westeros.

Centuries before the events of A Game of Thrones, House Targaryen—the only family of dragonlords to survive the Doom of Valyria—took up residence on Dragonstone. Fire and Blood begins their tale with the legendary Aegon the Conqueror, creator of the Iron Throne, and goes on to recount the generations of Targaryens who fought to hold that iconic seat, all the way up to the civil war that nearly tore their dynasty apart.

[Thomkal]

Not Game of Thrones related, but George R. R. Martin's Nightflyers premieres tonight on Syfy at 10 pm (and then repeated at 11 pm). I've not read those books or tried to find out a lot about the show, but it seems like its some horror/Sci-fi combo where human scientists make first(?) contact with alien life and shocker! I don't think it goes well:


TV THIS WEEK: Nightflyers scares up a premiere, plus new Flash, Doctor Who, Outlander and more | SYFY WIRE (https://www.syfy.com/syfywire/tv-this-week-nightflyers-flash-doctor-who-outlander-and-more)


Scroll down to see the opening scene

[Edward64]

Thanks, may have to give this a shot.

[Thomkal]

Not Game of Thrones related, but George R. R. Martin's Nightflyers premieres tonight on Syfy at 10 pm (and then repeated at 11 pm). I've not read those books or tried to find out a lot about the show, but it seems like its some horror/Sci-fi combo where human scientists make first(?) contact with alien life and shocker! I don't think it goes well:


TV THIS WEEK: Nightflyers scares up a premiere, plus new Flash, Doctor Who, Outlander and more | SYFY WIRE (https://www.syfy.com/syfywire/tv-this-week-nightflyers-flash-doctor-who-outlander-and-more)


Scroll down to see the opening scene


I've watched about 20 mins of the premiere. Special effects are good for a Syfy show. Not generally a fan of horror movies/shows, so I'm not sure how long it will hold my interest. Waiting to see what the aliens are like before deciding. Fan of the lead actor from another show. Happy to see a telepath (?) not happy with how he's being used so far.

[PilotMan]

I might die before this book gets released.

Game of Thrones: The Winds of Winter Website Domain Has Fans Freaking Out (https://comicbook.com/tv-shows/2019/12/06/game-thrones-winds-winter-book-release-date-official-website-updated/#1)

[molson]

I kind of want an honest account memoir of what the hell happened with Winds of Winter more than I want the Winds of Winter book itself.

In the last real update in January 2016, Martin said that in September 2015, he thought he'd be able to have to the book out by the end of that year. 4 years ago.

[Chief Rum]

I have tsken a "I'll see it when I see it" approach to TWOW for about five years now.

[GrantDawg]

I have lost interest in reading it.

[Edward64]

I have lost interest in reading it.

I do feel this way since HBO has given me closure but TBH, I'll re/read the entire series once all the books are out.

I do think GRRM is an ass (but I wish I could write half, okay maybe a quarter, as well as him). GRRM, Rothfuss (who is also pissing me off), Sanderson are my top 3 in this current generation.

[Lathum]

I have lost interest in reading it.

Me too. I honestly have forgotten 90% of what happened.

[Honolulu_Blue]

I have largely stopped thinking about it or when it will come out. Between the show wrapping up and the quality of the last two books, my interest level is pretty low. I’ll definitely read it when it comes out, because I still love the world and characters, but I’m not super excited about it. I have no anger towards Martin. Between the show and the first three books - he’s done more than right by me. He’s given me so much joy and excitement and owes me nothing. There is no shortage of things to read, watch and listen to in the meantime.

[PilotMan]

I have largely stopped thinking about it or when it will come out. Between the show wrapping up and the quality of the last two books, my interest level is pretty low. I’ll definitely read it when it comes out, because I still love the world and characters, but I’m not super excited about it. I have no anger towards Martin. Between the show and the first three books - he’s done more than right by me. He’s given me so much joy and excitement and owes me nothing. There is no shortage of things to read, watch and listen to in the meantime.


This is about where I'm at, plus the combination of forgetting everything that happened, the recency of HBO, and the differences in the plot. The idea that I have to read 500 pages to get to the part of the book where the plot starts to move again is rough. I don't even remember what the books were titled or even what order they were in. It's still my favorite series and it's done some amazing things, but the delays have crushed excitement for it.

[molson]

I've stopped thinking about it too. I'll read if it comes out, there's a couple of great chapter-by-chapter recap sites that I would have to get through first to refresh my memory, and to try to get my brain back into book as opposed to show mode with this story.

[ISiddiqui]

I kind of want an honest account memoir of what the hell happened with Winds of Winter more than I want the Winds of Winter book itself.

Seems to happen quite a bit with fantasy writers. Patrick Rothfuss is having the same issues with his Kingkiller Chronicles (the 2nd book of that series was released the same year that Dance with Dragons was out). Robert Jordan famously had his issues.

Anyways, I recently did a re-read of the series (and read Fire and Blood and the Dunk and Egg stories again), and was surprised to find that A Feast for Crows, which was lamented at the time, turned out to be my 2nd favorite book. When I wasn't reading it for 'what happens next with the plot' (Storm of Swords ruined me) I was able to appreciate it better - it's a book that cares about what the past battles have done to the people and the countryside than what new twist is going to happen with the plot (though it does have a few big twists at the end).

[Fidatelo]

This series was my favorite series ever after the first 3 books. And now I'm at the point where I have barely-above-zero interest in the entire thing. I purchased book 5 but it had been so long since book 4 that I started to read and had no idea who was who or what was going on, so I told myself I'd re-read book 4 and then go back.


That re-read felt like such a slog that I never got more than 100 pages into it, so I told myself I'd read a Coles Notes style synopsis on the internet. All that did was reveal that there was a bunch of stuff from the earlier books that I couldn't remember either. My heart sank, and at that point I think I knew I would likely never read the rest of the series.


Who knows, maybe if he ever actually puts out the final books and says "it's done", maybe then I'll go back and re-read everything and just take it all in and enjoy it. By then my kids will likely be moved out (maybe with kids of their own!) and I'll have all sorts of time. Who knows, but I'm certainly not going to spend much time thinking about it.

[Edward64]

Officially threw in the towel (unofficially did that about 5+ years ago) by giving my 5 GoT hardcover books to Goodwill today.

I thought the full hardcover set would look great on my bookshelf but now concede it will never be finished by GRRM. More likely finished by Brandon Sanderson (or like) after GRRM croaks, and by then I'll get the kindle version.

Unfortunately, it's looking like Patrick Rothfuss has the same issue. But I'll give it a couple more years before I give his first 2 hardcover books away.

[Kodos]

I did the same thing with the Garfield books.

[Lathum]

I bet both Garfield and George RR love lasagna.

[Edward64]

I bet both Garfield and George RR love lasagna.

I can always tell when you've been drinking. Your posts are "different" :)

[Lathum]

I can always tell when you've been drinking. Your posts are "different" :)

cheers!

[albionmoonlight]

Unfortunately, it's looking like Patrick Rothfuss has the same issue. But I'll give it a couple more years before I give his first 2 hardcover books away.

The irony is that a lot of people started reading Rothfuss b/c they were tired of waiting for a new GRRM book.

The other issue with the Rothfuss books is that it feels like we are nowhere close to even halfway through the story and we've (theoretically) read 2 of the 3 books.

[Edward64]

The irony is that a lot of people started reading Rothfuss b/c they were tired of waiting for a new GRRM book.

The other issue with the Rothfuss books is that it feels like we are nowhere close to even halfway through the story and we've (theoretically) read 2 of the 3 books.

Agreed. Rothfuss did say he had all 3 books mapped out and everyone thought it would be completed relatively quick. Rothfuss has said there will be other books in that world but I'm not holding my breath. I read somewhere the book-to-movie deal fell through also.

I will say that I believe Rothfuss is the superior writer, his style, plots etc. but I enjoyed GRRM more because there was more action. Both are much better than I can ever hope to be.

I will also toss in Scott Lynch and the Gentlemen Bastards. I can't blame Scott because he had a medical issue but am disappointed his series isn't done. His writing style is up there also.

[molson]

Saw this bumped and I thought we got GRRM traditional, "I'm working really hard on the book but I have a ways to go" year-ending blog post.

The only other GRRM work I'm interested in now is an honest tell-all of how he went from being sure in September 2015 that he'd finish by December 2015, to where we are now.

I check in on the book series subreddit sometimes, and I'm becoming more and more intrigued by the theory that he hasn't written anything in years, perhaps since 2015, and the publishers have figured this out and have moved on. Or, that he didn't write anything from 2015-2019 and is now trying to pick it back up since he finally has a break in his schedule with the pandemic. Between 2015-2019 he never gave updates about his progress, then suddenly in 2020 he started talking about specific number of pages he wrote, what characters he was working on, etc.

Apparently this is a thing with other science fiction writers too (I don't read any other fantasy or science fiction but it's fun to read about this other unproductive authors). I guess fans of the The War Against the Chtorr series have been waiting since 1993 for the next book.

It's amusing to me. People love to trash the show, and TV shows in general get nitpicked to hell, but at least that's a medium where the creators can't just not bother to make deadlines. It's just not a part of that world, you'd never survive.

[Lathum]

Saw this bumped and I thought we got GRRM traditional, "I'm working really hard on the book but I have a ways to go" year-ending blog post.
.


I thought he was dead.

2020 and all....

[Edward64]

I thought he was dead.

2020 and all....

GRRM doesn't look that great in pics I've seen.

Rothfuss does look okay, just distracted by many other things like his charity. I'm pretty sure if Rothfuss would finish the 3rd book and give a good % to his charity, it would be much, much more than current charity stuff he is doing.

[PilotMan]

He says...

"....I think I'm around three quarters done, maybe."

Says it's the biggest book by far, longer than it's 1500 page predecessor. It'll never come out and if it does, nobody will read it.

[sabotai]

I will.

[PilotMan]

Oh I will too I'm sure, at this rate he's what 4 to 5 years away?

[molson]

I still bet he hasn't actually started yet. But he's definitely going to get to it first thing tomorrow.

[flere-imsaho]

I'm going to wait until Brandon Sanderson, Kevin J. Anderson, or, more likely, one or both halves of James S.A. Corey finish it.

[Edward64]

I've read all three. I can see how they might finish GRRM (given source material) but don't think their styles is close to Rothfuss.

[sabotai]

Brandon Sanderson would be the worst possible choice to finish ASOIF (and he even said as much and that he wouldn't do it).

I'd go with Joe Abercrombie but I haven't read Kevin J. Anderson yet. Maybe James S.A. Corey but I've only read the first book of the Expanse so far.

I wouldn't be surprised if the best writer to finish the series would come from more of a historical fiction background than fantasy.

(Just looking up Kevin J. Anderson's books now and I see a bunch of Dune books and Star Wars books, so he at least has extensive experience writing in someone else's IP)

EDIT: And just looked up Corey because the "one or both halves" bit confused me. I had no idea that was a pen name for two people.

[flere-imsaho]

...and both have worked directly with GRRM.

[Edward64]

I was checking up on Star Citizen game progress. It occurred to me that Star Citizen is to computer games what GRRM/Rothfuss is to the fantasy genre.

[albionmoonlight]

Says it's the biggest book by far, longer than it's 1500 page predecessor. It'll never come out and if it does, nobody will read it.

Yeah. Finish. Don't finish. Whatever you want, George. Ice and Fire has moved on.

Rothfuss is the one that still hurts. Those first two books are so good.

Coming to terms with the idea that we will probably never get a third has been hard.

[albionmoonlight]

dola: I do completely understand the situation, however. Writing is hard.

I write for a living--appellate briefs, not novels. And if, somehow, I got a ton of money and all of my briefing deadlines went away and instead of writing briefs, I would be flown around the country to attend cons and sit on panels where I simply talked about writing and everyone kept coming up to me and telling me how great I was?

Well, if that happened, I'd wake up every morning and stare at my blank computer screen for five minutes and then start googling cool restaurants close to the site of next weeks appellate con.

Writing is hard work.