Holy crap! Vick-to-the-Raiders Rumor

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

I love it when people deliberately ignore other evidence already posted in a thread, such as the FACT that Price had already started to drop in productiont he year BEFORE he came to Atlanta. I also love that you're trying to make the argument that Vick is so bad that in one season he ruined Peerless Price for life.

Nah, he picked Price and not Lelie on purpose. Lelie is the one that started to drop in production before coming to the Falcons, not Price. Price is the one that had one stellar year and then came back to earth in his first year with the Falcons.

[Synovia]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

Or maybe not.

Check out Vick's situational stats. 82% of his rushing yards come on 1st and 2nd down. He only had 9 carries in situations where it was 3rd and greater than 8 yards, and got 141 yards on those carries. Certainly a few of those were first downs, and the others don't make nearly as much of his total as you're trying to claim.

Where are you getting those numbers? Also, Look at DPAR. His rushing, while a plus, clearly does not overweight the fact that hes a worse passer than Kyle Orton, or Joey Harrington.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by Synovia

"Since 1999 - Culpepper - 89 Fumbles, 35 Lost 85 Starts" Extrapolate Vick's 27 in 67, and you get 34.2 fumbles lost. Here's the difference: Culpepper can actually pass.

He can? He could throw a pretty deep ball and let Randy Moss or Cris Carter run under it, but he never seemed to replicate that his last year in Minnesota once Moss was gone or in Miami, even before the injury came along. You want to complain about Vick not being accurate, don't bring up Culpepper. The man was and always has been terrible on short to intermediate throws.

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

Reche Caldwell is not that good a good player. Scheme and accurate throws helped him accumulate the best stats of his career. On talent alone he's marginally above a street guy who by the way Gaffney is.

Both players could be Falcons at this point. I'd argue as Falcons they are regarded on the same level as current Falcon wideouts.

Put another way, trade receiving corps with the Pats and I'd suspect similar numbers from both teams. In fact Caldwell and Gaffney would be hard pressed to do much of anything on the Falcons team.

Yeah, and who on the Falcons would succeed on the Pats; Ashley Lelie or Roddy White? Like you say, in the NFL, scheme plays a much more important role in how good a player is for a team than sheer talent, and Reche Caldwell, basically a street FA like Gaffney, looks ideally suited to be a #2/3 in the Troy Brown mold now that Brady has coached him up and he understands the offense. Gaffney had 21 catches in the postseason; maybe he's starting to get it somewhat too. I'm pretty sure Lelie, White, Doug Gabriel and Chad Jackson are much more talented receivers, but clearly they didn't fit our offense that well (hopefully Jackson will with a full offseason and injury-free training camp.)

[Synovia]

Originally Posted by wade moore

I knew something looked funny. I see down below it has rushing numbers and Vick's DPAR is far better than any of the other QB's. Funny to see Manning as #6 though, wouldn't expect that.

I knew I needed to understand these a bit better.

And if you add his Rushing Dpar, and his Passing DPAR... you get... Mark Brunell.

[Synovia]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

He can? He could throw a pretty deep ball and let Randy Moss or Cris Carter run under it, but he never seemed to replicate that his last year in Minnesota once Moss was gone or in Miami, even before the injury came along. You want to complain about Vick not being accurate, don't bring up Culpepper. The man was and always has been terrible on short to intermediate throws.

As Bad as culpepper was in Miami, he was STILL better as a passer than Vick has ever been. He had a 60% competion percentage, , and a 6.9 YPA, both higher than Vick's career highs. In Culpepper's worst year, hes STILL better than vick, An FWIW, chambers is much worse than any of Vick's WRers. He caught less than 30% of the passes thrown at him this year IIRC.

[timmynausea]

In my opinon, Vick is right around the middle of the pack in terms of starting NFL QBs. He doesn't crack the top ten but might be in the top 15. He seemed to have the potential to be a lot better than that, but for whatever number of reasons hasn't really developed as a passer.

So I guess I'm in between the two poles on this one. I think he is definitely way overpaid, but I also think the Falcons could be successful with Vick at QB if they built a good team around him and used a scheme that fit his skills.

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

He can? He could throw a pretty deep ball and let Randy Moss or Cris Carter run under it, but he never seemed to replicate that his last year in Minnesota once Moss was gone or in Miami, even before the injury came along. You want to complain about Vick not being accurate, don't bring up Culpepper. The man was and always has been terrible on short to intermediate throws.Yeah, and who on the Falcons would succeed on the Pats; Ashley Lelie or Roddy White? Like you say, in the NFL, scheme plays a much more important role in how good a player is for a team than sheer talent, and Reche Caldwell, basically a street FA like Gaffney, looks ideally suited to be a #2/3 in the Troy Brown mold now that Brady has coached him up and he understands the offense. Gaffney had 21 catches in the postseason; maybe he's starting to get it somewhat too. I'm pretty sure Lelie, White, Doug Gabriel and Chad Jackson are much more talented receivers, but clearly they didn't fit our offense that well (hopefully Jackson will with a full offseason and injury-free training camp.)

but the falcons guys COULD fit the NE offense and there is the rub. Caldwell, Jackson, Gaffney, Brown could not fit the Falcon offense. I'd submit no receiver but the inside TE type fits the Falcon offense and I also submit that's a reflection of the scheme or qb overall.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

2006: the year vick puts it all together

2007: the year vick puts it all together

2008: the year vick puts it all together - after all, year 2 of the new staff

2009: the year vick puts it all together

I love how the reported lack of preparation is just brushed aside and we are reduced to arguing about fumble rates and wide receivers.

Michael Vick could never reach his potential. If the reported lack of preperation is true, he probably won't. But a question like whether his WR's have been any good is completely independent of that.

[Synovia]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

Michael Vick could never reach his potential. If the reported lack of preperation is true, he probably won't. But a question like whether his WR's have been any good is completely independent of that.

Right, and there never will be any way to tell. THe thing is, I see this as a case of Okham's razor: Either Atlanta has blown multiple first round Pick's on WR, picked up numerous overrated free agent Wide recievers, and failed to develope any project recievers, OR, vick is a poor passer. Sometimes the simplest explanation is the correct one.

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by Synovia

And if you add his Rushing Dpar, and his Passing DPAR... you get... Mark Brunell.

I don't fully understand these numbers. So, I don't know if you can just add them together. However, if you can, Mark Brunell, according to these numbers that you are supporting, is a top 15 QB. Which basically supports what I'm saying - especially when you add the "butts in the seat" and "merchandise" factor.

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by Synovia

Right, and there never will be any way to tell. THe thing is, I see this as a case of Okham's razor: Either Atlanta has blown multiple first round Pick's on WR, picked up numerous overrated free agent Wide recievers, and failed to develope any project recievers, OR, vick is a poor passer. Sometimes the simplest explanation is the correct one.

Or, is this a case of Okham's razor:

Doug Johnson:

Matt Schaub:

Neither guy could manage much more in comp % than Vick without some of the other pluses.

[st.cronin]

I really don't understand why posts in this thread count.

[Synovia]

Originally Posted by wade moore

I don't fully understand these numbers. So, I don't know if you can just add them together. However, if you can, Mark Brunell, according to these numbers that you are supporting, is a top 15 QB. Which basically supports what I'm saying - especially when you add the "butts in the seat" and "merchandise" factor.

Basically, you can add them together. Theyre supposed to be Points Above Replacement. Basically, Mike Vick was worth -6.3 points this year as a passer, and 32.4 as a rusher. Basically, if you took some random scrub from college, he'd get you 6 more points worth of field position in the passing game, and lose you 32 points in the rushing game. Its a cumulative stat, so frequency is rewarded. Mcnabb is ranked #7 having played only what? 6 games. He'd be up near Manning if he played 16. Charlie Batch played 3 games and had half the DPAR that Vick accumulated over a whole season. Don't forget:This was one of Vick's better seasons. In this season, he's been mediocre at best, but he makes Elite money. He's awfully similar to Eli Manning, in the fact that hes a workable NFL quarterback, but that he makes so much money that he ends up hurting the team. I think most of the Teams would love to have Mike Vick.... At $2M a year. At $16 M, most wouldnt touch him if they had the choice.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by Synovia

As Bad as culpepper was in Miami, he was STILL better as a passer than Vick has ever been. He had a 60% competion percentage, , and a 6.9 YPA, both higher than Vick's career highs. In Culpepper's worst year, hes STILL better than vick, An FWIW, chambers is much worse than any of Vick's WRers. He caught less than 30% of the passes thrown at him this year IIRC.

It was 39%, but whatever happened to Chris Chambers this year was one of the weirdest things I've seen in the NFL. Guy went from being criminally underrated to by far the worst WR in the NFL. Maybe the Culpepper/Joey Harrington/Cleo Lemon carousel messed him up. I'd still take him for next year over any of the Falcons WR's.

Once again, you're misrepresenting Vick's #'s. His career high YPA is 7.2. He also had a different year with 7.0 YPA. And I could point out how Culpepper had more INT's than TD's (or mislead and say he had almost double as many INT's as TD's) and over 5 sacks a game, or we can agree that 4 games is too small a sample size to compare to a full season.

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

but the falcons guys COULD fit the NE offense and there is the rub. Caldwell, Jackson, Gaffney, Brown could not fit the Falcon offense. I'd submit no receiver but the inside TE type fits the Falcon offense and I also submit that's a reflection of the scheme or qb overall.

No, they couldn't. If Doug Gabriel couldn't make it in NE's offense, Ashley Lelie, Roddy White and Michael Jenkins wouldn't either. Maybe Jenkins, but the other two have the exact skillset that it valued by the rest of the NFL (size, speed) without that which is valued by the Patriots scheme (hands, intelligence to make the right breaks and reads.)

I don't feel qualified to comment on the Falcons offense, but I figure Petrino is pretty smart and should be able to figure out a decent enough scheme. (My idea would be scrap all but one WR, add another TE and wingback in there and run some sort of the single-wing? that Arkansas ran with McFadden, slash misdirection type plays Wake Forest uses so successfully. It's not the option, so hopefully that alleviates the concern about Vick being hurt too much.)

[Synovia]

Originally Posted by wade moore

Or, is this a case of Okham's razor:

Doug Johnson:


Matt Schaub:


Neither guy could manage much more in comp % than Vick without some of the other pluses.

Both those quarterbacks display the typical developement of an NFL quarterback. Rough first year, little better 2nd year, and breaking 60% in the third year. Mike Vick has shown no such improvement. Hes basically the same passer, in the 6th year of his career, as Shaub and Johnson were coming off their rookie years, getting almost no playing time. Thats pretty damning to me.

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by Synovia

Basically, you can add them together. Theyre supposed to be Points Above Replacement. Basically, Mike Vick was worth -6.3 points this year as a passer, and 32.4 as a rusher. Basically, if you took some random scrub from college, he'd get you 6 more points worth of field position in the passing game, and lose you 32 points in the rushing game. Its a cumulative stat, so frequency is rewarded. Mcnabb is ranked #7 having played only what? 6 games. He'd be up near Manning if he played 16. Charlie Batch played 3 games and had half the DPAR that Vick accumulated over a whole season. Don't forget:This was one of Vick's better seasons. In this season, he's been mediocre at best, but he makes Elite money. He's awfully similar to Eli Manning, in the fact that hes a workable NFL quarterback, but that he makes so much money that he ends up hurting the team. I think most of the Teams would love to have Mike Vick.... At $2M a year. At $16 M, most wouldnt touch him if they had the choice.

I think you are greatly underestimating the ticket sales/merchandising factor here.

[st.cronin]

omg STOP

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by Synovia

Both those quarterbacks display the typical developement of an NFL quarterback. Rough first year, little better 2nd year, and breaking 60% in the third year. Mike Vick has shown no such improvement. Hes basically the same passer, in the 6th year of his career, as Shaub and Johnson were coming off their rookie years, getting almost no playing time. Thats pretty damning to me.

Um, when Johnson actually got PT in his 4th year with the Falcons, he went down to 56%. The high numbers, imo, are a product of small sample size. When you look at the bigger sample sizes, they're closer to 55%.

And, let's take this another way.

According to your Football outsider stats:

Doug Johnson:
2000 - -9.9
2001 - DNQ
2002 - 13.8
2003 - -3.4

Matt Schaub:
2004 - -18.0
2005 - 12.2
2006 - 4.8

I'm not going to dig up their rushing numbers, but I'm sure when you add in Vick's rushing numbers he's far better than these two.

[Synovia]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

It was 39%, but whatever happened to Chris Chambers this year was one of the weirdest things I've seen in the NFL. Guy went from being criminally underrated to by far the worst WR in the NFL. Maybe the Culpepper/Joey Harrington/Cleo Lemon carousel messed him up. I'd still take him for next year over any of the Falcons WR's.

Once again, you're misrepresenting Vick's #'s. His career high YPA is 7.2. He also had a different year with 7.0 YPA.

Vick had one year at 7.21, and then his next highest was 6.97. Culpeppers's worst year was 6.93 and 7.02. So his two worst years were similar to vick's two best. He's also had multiple years over 8 ypa. Chambers had a DPAR of -19.8 this year. He was at 4.2 last year. 5.0 the year before. Chambers has hovered aroudn 50% completion percentage his whole career, while the guys around him sit much higher.

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

omg STOP

Sorry if you don't like a football discussion on a football message board.

[Desnudo]

Well at least he's a good role model. You can overcome smoking pot and herpes to become a passable NFL QB.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

omg STOP

I'm pretty sure we could make a longer thread out of nothing but your posts about Tom Brady.

[Synovia]

Originally Posted by wade moore

Um, when Johnson actually got PT in his 4th year with the Falcons, he went down to 56%. The high numbers, imo, are a product of small sample size. When you look at the bigger sample sizes, they're closer to 55%.

And, let's take this another way.

According to your Football outsider stats:

Doug Johnson:
2000 - -9.9
2001 - DNQ
2002 - 13.8
2003 - -3.4

Matt Schaub:
2004 - -18.0
2005 - 12.2
2006 - 4.8

I'm not going to dig up their rushing numbers, but I'm sure when you add in Vick's rushing numbers he's far better than these two.

DPAR is a cumulative stat, so you can't use it in this case. IE a guy who gets .1 point over average and gets 100 plays is worth 10DPAR, while a guy who gets .5 over average and only gets 10 plays is worth 5 DPAR. Vick plays 16 games,so he should have magnitudes higher DPAR.

If you want to compare players with unequal play time, use DVOA.

Schaub this year: 31% Vick: -16.6%

That means, if its 3rd and 12, and the league average is 10 yards, Vick will get you 8.4. Shaub will get you 13.1 yards.

2005 Schaub:28.9 Vick:-5.9

2004 Schaub:-70.7 (rookie year...rookies ALWAYS suck...except Roethlisburger) Vick:-24.9 Vick has continued to suck as a passer, and doesnt show any signs of getting any better. He's past the point where QBs typically learn, and hes not that good.

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

I'm pretty sure we could make a longer thread out of nothing but your posts about Tom Brady.

I support this idea.

[VPI97]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

Michael Vick could never reach his potential. If the reported lack of preperation is true, he probably won't.

I have no idea where Synovia saw something that said Vick doesn't watch tape, since the only thing I could find via google was this article in which he says he watches 'a lot' of tape. I'd be shocked if he didn't since I don't think it would matter even if Vick doesn't want to watch tape...no coach would stand for that.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by Synovia

Vick had one year at 7.21, and then his next highest was 6.97. Culpeppers's worst year was 6.93 and 7.02. So his two worst years were similar to vick's two best. He's also had multiple years over 8 ypa.

True, and if you had said that, I wouldn't have argued. Although it would be interesting to see what Vick could do in a downfield passing offense with the equivalent of a semi-interested Randy Moss and Cris Carter, then Nate Burleson and Marcus Robinson.

Chambers had a DPAR of -19.8 this year. He was at 4.2 last year. 5.0 the year before. Chambers has hovered around 50% completion percentage his whole career, while the guys around him sit much higher.

As much as I love FO and DPAR, it's pretty flawed when it comes to WR's. A guy like Plaxico Burress has around 50% catches on balls thrown at him, but I would submit that's in large part due to Eli's shitty accuracy and tendency to throw jump balls in Plaxico's direction. Roy Williams, one of your Top 10 WR's, is consistently around 50%. Ashley Lelie, one of your "good" WR's Atlanta acquired was 46%-53%-48% before Atlanta. Chambers, Burress and Williams all had/have terrible QB's throwing them the ball, and this brings them down. Chambers, Burress and Lelie are all also involved in a lot of deep passing plays, hence the lower completion %. Meanwhile guys like Wayne and Houshmandzadeh are up in the Top 4 because they have great QB's and a #1 on the other side drawing double coverage. Heck, Reche Caldwell is up above Burress, Torry Holt, Laveranues Coles, Donald Driver, Deion Branch, Braylon Edwards and Randy Moss.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

Forget the stats, just watch him play. Right now, Vick is an average to slightly better than average starting QB. There are some real questions about whether he will get any better. Would alot of teams like to have him at average QB money - yes. But at his current salary, he is way overpaid. This hurts the team because he is not producing in a way that makes up for lost production at other positions due to his high salary. That's how I see it.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by Synovia

DPAR is a cumulative stat, so you can't use it in this case. IE a guy who gets .1 point over average and gets 100 plays is worth 10DPAR, while a guy who gets .5 over average and only gets 10 plays is worth 5 DPAR. Vick plays 16 games,so he should have magnitudes higher DPAR.

If you want to compare players with unequal play time, use DVOA.

Schaub this year: 31% Vick: -16.6%

That means, if its 3rd and 12, and the league average is 10 yards, Vick will get you 8.4. Shaub will get you 13.1 yards.

No, that's not what DPAR means.

2005 Schaub:28.9 Vick:-5.9

2004 Schaub:-70.7 (rookie year...rookies ALWAYS suck...except Roethlisburger) Vick:-24.9

Sample size my friend, sample size. Otherwise Tim Rattay is the 3rd best QB in the league, and AJ Feeley, Sage Rosenfels, Brooks Bollinger and Q.Gray from Jacksonville are all better QB's than Schaub. If you really want to argue that Matt Schaub was half as good as AJ Feeley this year, 1/3 as good as Jay Fiedler the year before and negative 6 times as bad as Quincy Carter 3 years ago, I think I can twist these statistics as much as you.

The only time a backup QB in Atlanta got significant enough PT to compare legitimately with Vick was Doug Johnson in 2003, and he got a -16 DVOA.

[Synovia]

If you think VIck is a slightly above average passer, you're seeing something different than I am. I'm seeing an abysmal passer who's running ability helps make up for it somewhat. Whether hes decent or average, or even good, remember that he cost his team multiple first round picks, and about the same amount of cap space as Peyton Manning and Marvin Harrison.

[Synovia]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

The only time a backup QB in Atlanta got significant enough PT to compare legitimately with Vick was Doug Johnson in 2003, and he got a -16 DVOA.

Which was still higher than Vick's -19.3 for that year.

[VPI97]

Originally Posted by Vinatieri for Prez

Forget the stats, just watch him play. Right now, Vick is an average to slightly better than average starting QB. There are some real questions about whether he will get any better. Would alot of teams like to have him at average QB money - yes. But at his current salary, he is way overpaid. This hurts the team because he is not producing in a way that makes up for lost production at other positions due to his high salary. That's how I see it.

IMO it goes back to people not being able to quantify the value he has as a runner. Passing wise, he's bottom third of the league...rushing wise, he's the #1 QB and there's no one close. What weight should you put on each of those? How important are ten points in completion percentage when he averages 8.4 YPC on over 120 carries? Do the first downs that result from his legs out weight the lost first downs from missing a receiver? How much of a boon is it to the Atlanta running backs when a DE can't crash to the middle on an inside run when he's been told to contain a bootleg? How much of a detriment is it to the defense when a couple of incompletions turn into a three and out?

He plays the game in such a way that I find it impossible to compare his total effect to anyone else playing quarterback right now... All I know is that over the past six years, the Falcons have performed a whole lot better when he's in the game than when he's out of the game. Do I think Atlanta would be better with Manning, Brady or Brees as quarterback? Absolutely...every team would. Do I think they would be better with a Delhomme, Pennington, or any of the other two dozen quarterbacks in the league? I doubt it.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by Vinatieri for Prez

Forget the stats, just watch him play. Right now, Vick is an average to slightly better than average starting QB. There are some real questions about whether he will get any better. Would alot of teams like to have him at average QB money - yes. But at his current salary, he is way overpaid. This hurts the team because he is not producing in a way that makes up for lost production at other positions due to his high salary. That's how I see it.

On-field, that's pretty much how I see it too, except I'd like to see him under a good OC and with decent personnel around him before rendering judgment. In terms of bringing fickle Atlanta fans to the Georgia Dome, he might not be overpaid, but that's a seperate argument that I'm sure the ATL'ers could have (again).

[Synovia]

Originally Posted by VPI97

IMO it goes back to people not being able to quantify the value he has as a runner. Passing wise, he's bottom third of the league...rushing wise, he's the #1 QB and there's no one close. What weight should you put on each of those? How important are ten points in completion percentage when he averages 8.4 YPC on over 120 carries? Do the first downs that result from his legs out weight the lost first downs from missing a receiver? How much of a boon is it to the Atlanta running backs when a DE can't crash to the middle on an inside run when he's been told to contain a bootleg? How much of a detriment is it to the defense when a couple of incompletions turn into a three and out?

But you CAN quantify it. There are average expectancies about how many points an offense scores from certain positions of the field. Moving from the 20 to the 40 has an expected increase in the amount of points you're likely to score on average on the drive, and it is very consistent, and very measureable. So yes, you CAN measure the amount that Mike Vick's running offset's his poor passing. Hes the best running quarterback in the league.

He was worth 32.4 points of field position over your average replacement QB running the ball. He was worth -6 points throwing the ball. So that puts him 26 points above the average replacement scrub for the season. Which is 3 points below Mark Brunell, 2 points below Eli Manning, and almost the same as Jeff Garcia. Thats right, Jeff Garcia was worth 27 points above average in only what, 7 games? And it took Vick 16 games to accumulate the same amount of points? JPLosman was worth 22 for god sakes.

[Warhammer]

Which one would you prefer right now, Vick or V. Young?

[lordscarlet]

Man there's a lot of crap.

Bring on Matt Schaub*, Atlanta's savior!

* For those that are going to bring up the "backups always do well", I'm just trying to be a homer and troll, let it be.

[Anthony]

i hope the Giants try to aquire Vick to make him their RB (the position he really should be playing) now that Tiki Barber is gone.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

On-field, that's pretty much how I see it too, except I'd like to see him under a good OC and with decent personnel around him before rendering judgment. In terms of bringing fickle Atlanta fans to the Georgia Dome, he might not be overpaid, but that's a seperate argument that I'm sure the ATL'ers could have (again).

The Falcons couldn't fill the Dome when they went 14-2, but they've filled it up year after year with Vick. There's really no argument in terms of energizing a fanbase. Someone mentioned Vince Young. He's the only young player that I could see filling the Dome like Vick has. Keeping him in Atlanta is a business decision that extends wayyyyyyy beyond stats. I've followed this team for over 30 years and there's never been a time when back-to-back 8-8 and 7-9 have been unacceptable. It's sad to say, but 9-6-1, 11-5, 8-8, and 7-9 (the four seasons with Vick as starting QB) are all in the upper tier of seasons in Falcon history. I'm fairly certain that 11-5 is the third-best Falcon record ever, behind 14-2 in '98 and 12-4 in '80. It's difficult to overstate what Vick has meant in terms of attendance and interest in this franchise.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

Someone mentioned Vince Young. He's the only young player that I could see filling the Dome like Vick has.

Dola/Correction:

Well, D.J. would fill it for a few weeks.

[Buccaneer]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

I don't agree with this. No matter what Vick has done outside the field, there is always the chance that you see an absolutely amazing play made by him on the field. For that reason alone, Mr. Excitement will pack in the Dome, no matter what he does off the field.

And very nearby, MLK is rolling over in his grave.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

And very nearby, MLK is rolling over in his grave.

Yes, because of course MLK was all about running quarterbacks.

[Synovia]

Originally Posted by Warhammer

Which one would you prefer right now, Vick or V. Young?

Young.
He's a much better passer, and hes much bigger, so much less likely to get hurt. He's also a rookie, which means he's most likely going to get better, as opposed to Vick, who is who we thought he was.

[Buccaneer]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

Yes, because of course MLK was all about running quarterbacks.

He was about something more important that that and it applies to everyone, including QBs, European soccer thugs, NHL and NBA players, et al. It seems like as long as a player is "exciting" and marketable, character doesn't matter - as Imran said is the unfortunate and inconvenient truth. Maybe that's why I like Tony Gwynn and LT so much. I want to grow up to be like them and not like certain others.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

He was about something more important that that and it applies to everyone, including QBs, European soccer thugs, NHL and NBA players, et al. It seems like as long as a player is "exciting" and marketable, character doesn't matter - as Imran said is the unfortunate and inconvenient truth. Maybe that's why I like Tony Gwynn and LT so much. I want to grow up to be like them and not like certain others.

Is you a old man or is you a old woman? I forget.

Apparently, your emotions won't allow you to see that sports are ENTERTAINMENT, and nothing else. Do you watch movies where there's violence? Where the proganist has flaws? TV or movies in which the actors have made horrid real-life lifestyle choices? Do you listen to music made by people with questionable lifestyles? It's no different. I am entertained by guys who can do impressive things on the field or court, period, not to get some silly morality play or something. Your attitude reminds me of that of a female (of course) friend of mine once who used to always whine about my dislike of Greg McMichael as the closer for the Braves. "You should like him! He's a Christian!" My response was simple: "Great! If I ever need a guest speaker for Sunday School, I'll be sure to keep him in mind." His eternal destination has nothing to do with how effective he was, or how much I enjoyed watching him. Give me Wohlers or Rocker or Alejandro at their best any day of the week, and twice on Sundays, over that boring, soft-throwing, ineffective McMichael.

[Buccaneer]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

Is you a old man or is you a old woman? I forget.

Neither, just someone with a different opinion.

[Karlifornia]

Actually, I think MLK would be quite happy with the state of NFL football right now. Black QB's are playing at a record level, and two black head coaches are meeting in the super bowl. There are always going to be a few players with less than pristine off the field records. If the worst anyone did in their lives was smoke a few joints, I think the world would be a fantastic place.

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by VPI97

He plays the game in such a way that I find it impossible to compare his total effect to anyone else playing quarterback right now... All I know is that over the past six years, the Falcons have performed a whole lot better when he's in the game than when he's out of the game. Do I think Atlanta would be better with Manning, Brady or Brees as quarterback? Absolutely...every team would. Do I think they would be better with a Delhomme, Pennington, or any of the other two dozen quarterbacks in the league? I doubt it.

This sums up Vick very nicely imo.

[Eaglesfan27]

Originally Posted by VPI97

He plays the game in such a way that I find it impossible to compare his total effect to anyone else playing quarterback right now... All I know is that over the past six years, the Falcons have performed a whole lot better when he's in the game than when he's out of the game. Do I think Atlanta would be better with Manning, Brady or Brees as quarterback? Absolutely...every team would. Do I think they would be better with a Delhomme, Pennington, or any of the other two dozen quarterbacks in the league? I doubt it.

You forgot McNabb in the list of Manning, Brees, and Brady

[Kodos]

The Falcons need to go back to their old uniforms. The new ones are horrid.

I like Vick, but wish he would show a little more as a passer.

[Greyroofoo]

I just like how Peyton Manning has more rushing TDs this year than Vick.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Eaglesfan27

You forgot McNabb in the list of Manning, Brees, and Brady

Only if McNabb stays healthy . Maybe he needs more Chunky Soup?