Five Years

[Radii]

Originally Posted by molson

Agreed, that answered my questions.

Does anyone want to admit that they though Iraq was a good idea after the government was overthrown in about 10 minutes with minimal casualties, and after we saw those videos of jubilant Iraqis tearing down symbols of the old guard? Because the support was overwhelmingly positive then.

It was overwhelmingly impressive to me to see what our military was capable of, and seeing that statue come down was a very very powerful symbolic image. Stories of mass graves being found and stories of the atrocities committed by Saddam against his own people were heartbreaking. And absolutely in those moments I was hoping to be quickly proven wrong in my objections. Definitely wasn't entirely black and white here.

I remember fearing that Saddam would put up as much resistance as possible, knowing that it was inevitable that we'd take him out, but really being scared of seeing stories about Saddam launching some horrific chemical attack, or using some final desperation move to fire whatever he had at Israel, Iran, or Saudi Arabia and hoping that he would somehow survive the ensuing chaos. It was a huge relief when nothing like that happened.

[cartman]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

I don't recall exactly, but wasn't Sadam intensely secular and, therefore, really wary of (if not opposed to) Muslim extremist groups like Al Qaeda?

Yep, that was a big part of it. People lumped them together and made assumptions that since Al-Qaeda and Hussein were both Sunni, they would work hand in hand. But that would be about the same as saying that Rev. Phelps and Rev. Billy Graham would work in tandem just because they are both Baptists.

[Buccaneer]

Originally Posted by sabotai

That's what I thought would happen as well, although I think at some point I was for the war (I was a lot more hawkish back then). I didn't realize there'd be that many incompatent people at the top to not have a real exit strategy or even the basic understandings of the Iraqi potical and religious enviroment. I was quite obviously wrong.

+1

I was not against going in even though I knew the reason was to simply finish what Bush1 started. I had no problems with the short war itself (it was executed very well). The aftermath really, really, reall sucked. I have studied for years the aftermaths of wars (Rev War, Civil War, WW1, WW2, Vietnam mostly) and found that topic to be fascinating. For the reasons sab gave, the post-Iraq War planning was horrible.

I believe I was on record here to have brought up that point very early on. To me, the turning point was one that most have not thought about - the day Baghdad fell. Do you remember that day? What did you notice that was peculiar (while everyone was joking at Baghdad Bob)?

[Raiders Army]

Five years ago tomorrow we shot down an Ababil-100 that was coming in on Camp Doha. If I were back in El Paso tomorrow I'd get with my boys and celebrate. A lot of my soldiers are out of the Army at this point and I will be joining them this summer.

[Drake]

In case no one has said it lately, thank you for your service, Raiders Army. Regardless of anyone's stance on the war, I appreciate your willingness to put yourself in harm's way on our behalf.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by Hell Atlantic

exactly. this stuff didn't happen in Saddam-controlled Iraq. and the people had running water and electricity.

Except, you know, neither of the above are true. You have more electricity now, you have less malnutrition/diseases like cholera and you have fewer Iraqis dying every year than any under Saddam since about 1980. Look at the hard metrics, look at any poll, Iraqis are better off now than they were in 2002.

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

I don't recall exactly, but wasn't Saddam intensely secular and, therefore, really wary of (if not opposed to) Muslim extremist groups like Al Qaeda?

It's not that simple. He personally was intensely secular, but publicly adopted many overtly religious policies to cement power. He was intensely against Shi'a religious organization, as he viewed it as a potential power base to depose him (guys like al-Sadr's father/the Karbala celebrations of Imam Hussein's death etc). As for the terrorist connections, he opposed al-Qaeda, but he did shelter both the Abu Nidal and other Palestinian terrorist organizations (before probably knocking him off in the run-up to the US invasion to try and appease the US).

[stevew]

Originally Posted by Drake

Wars really need better statistics if they expect me to follow this whole war thing closely. I'd really like to see a Casualty per Round Fired stat, or maybe Casualty per Aimed Shot. It's really hard to tell who the top recruits are without better stats.

We give way too many awards for those to be a reliable metric.

freakin SABR guys I tell you......

[Raiders Army]

Originally Posted by Drake

In case no one has said it lately, thank you for your service, Raiders Army. Regardless of anyone's stance on the war, I appreciate your willingness to put yourself in harm's way on our behalf.

Technically I wasn't in harm's way (had confidence in our system), but thanks.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

+1

I was not against going in even though I knew the reason was to simply finish what Bush1 started. I had no problems with the short war itself (it was executed very well). The aftermath really, really, reall sucked. I have studied for years the aftermaths of wars (Rev War, Civil War, WW1, WW2, Vietnam mostly) and found that topic to be fascinating. For the reasons sab gave, the post-Iraq War planning was horrible.

I believe I was on record here to have brought up that point very early on. To me, the turning point was one that most have not thought about - the day Baghdad fell. Do you remember that day? What did you notice that was peculiar (while everyone was joking at Baghdad Bob)?

i'll always remember the soldier on the ladder putting an american flag over the head of Saddam's statue, only to have the other soldeir tell him to take it down.

[JPhillips]

I feel a little like Fritz saying this, but our problem in Iraq is that we've been thinking mostly in tactical terms while ignoring our larger strategic goals. The surge has been effective tactically, but we still don't have a clear strategic plan regionally or globally. In the end violence up or down from month to month is largely unimportant.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

Except, you know, neither of the above are true. You have more electricity now, you have less malnutrition/diseases like cholera and you have fewer Iraqis dying every year than any under Saddam since about 1980. Look at the hard metrics, look at any poll, Iraqis are better off now than they were in 2002.

So, I went and googled some metrics, and they contradict what you're saying here. On electricity, while it may be somewhat more widespread than under Saddam, there still isn't a lot, and Baghdad certainly has less than under Saddam.

Neither do your comments on malnutrition/disease seem to square with what I googled.

And finally the stats about deaths are open to interpretation. What are you using for sources on deaths?

Do you have some links?

[Critch]

Originally Posted by Drake

4,000 U.S. deaths
~85k from NM's citation.

4:85

You need to split the 85k into which side killed them to decide who to score them for.

[Fidatelo]

Originally Posted by Critch

You need to split the 85k into which side killed them to decide who to score them for.

Flippancy is not allowed, please stop causing problems.

[Drake]

And don't think that the Axis of Poofy Accents won't be our next target once we dispose of the Axis of Evil.

[Kodos]

Originally Posted by Fidatelo

Flippancy is not allowed, please stop causing problems.

Maybe you should stay classy and make some 9/11 jokes too.

[MikeVic]

Isn't there some rule about how long passes by before you can make jokes? I think it was 5 or 6 years.

[Fidatelo]

Originally Posted by Kodos

Maybe you should stay classy and make some 9/11 jokes too.

I would, but like so many things that day, they tend to fall flat.

[cartman]

Originally Posted by MikeVic

Isn't there some rule about how long passes by before you can make jokes? I think it was 5 or 6 years.

according to South Park, it is 22.3 years before something tragic becomes funny.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

So, I went and googled some metrics, and they contradict what you're saying here. On electricity, while it may be somewhat more widespread than under Saddam, there still isn't a lot, and Baghdad certainly has less than under Saddam.

Google is a terrible search engine for stuff like this, because they use how many sites link to any page, so you end up with the popular blog posts on either side going into an echo chamber. I used http://www.brookings.edu/saban/~/med...ndex/index.pdf Page 40 for electricity. The reason Baghdad has less is because Saddam would concentrate power there and blackout the other parts of the country. There's still not a lot more, but there has been equal or more since June 2007 according to official production. (Privately there has been a boom in private generators, but I can understand if people don't want to include that, even if they matter just as much with how much electricity is getting to Iraqis.)

Neither do your comments on malnutrition/disease seem to square with what I googled.

Look up the impact of the UN sanctions. I'll see if I can get a good link later when I have time.

And finally the stats about deaths are open to interpretation. What are you using for sources on deaths?

Do you have some links?

You can debate whether to include the Iran war, but the Anfal campaign and 1991 massacres alone are between 300 and 500 thousand. Abu Ghraib had thousands of political prisoners tortured and murdered every year.

Regardless, the point isn't that we're doing fantastic here, but it's certainly no worse than under Saddam. HA's assertion that it was better under Saddam and thus we should have let the genocidal dictator stay in power pissed me off.

[flere-imsaho]

Our post-combat casualties continue to mount:

The photo below captures everything that Americans wanted to believe about the Iraq war in the earliest days of the invasion in 2003. Pfc. Joseph Dwyer, an Army medic whose unit was fighting its way up the Euphrates to Baghdad, cradles a wounded boy. The child is half-naked and helpless, but trusting. Private Dwyer’s face is strained but calm.

If there are better images of the strength and selflessness of the American soldier, I can’t think of any. It is easy to understand why newspapers and magazines around the country ran the photo big, making Private Dwyer an instant hero, back when the war was a triumphal tale of Iraqi liberation.

That story turned bitter years ago, of course. And the mountain of sorrows keeps growing: Mr. Dwyer died last month in North Carolina. He was 31 and very sick. For years he had been in and out of treatment for post-traumatic stress disorder and addiction. He was seized by fearful delusions and fits of violence and rage. His wife left him to save herself and their young daughter. When the police were called to Mr. Dwyer’s apartment on June 28, he was alone. They broke down the door and found him dying among pill bottles and cans of cleaning solvent that friends said he sniffed to deaden his pain.

He had been heading for a disastrous end ever since he came home.

Two of his best friends were Angela Minor and Dionne Knapp, fellow medics at Fort Bliss, near El Paso, Tex. For a while, they were part of a small, inseparable group that worked together, ate out, went to movies and called one another by their first names, which is not the military habit.

Joseph was a rock, Ms. Minor said, a guy who would change your oil and check your tires unasked and pick you up by your broken-down car at 3 a.m. Ms. Knapp said he was like an uncle to her son, Justin, who was having trouble in kindergarten and brightened whenever Mr. Dwyer went there to check on him.

Ms. Knapp was called up to Iraq, but Mr. Dwyer insisted on taking her place, because she was a single mom. He had no children at the time, and besides, he had enlisted right after 9/11 just for this. He went and stunned everybody by getting his picture all over the newspapers and TV.

A few months later, he was home. He was shy about his celebrity. He was also skinny and haunted. Ms. Minor said he was afraid. Ms. Knapp said paranoid was more like it.

It didn’t help that El Paso looked a lot like Iraq. Once he totaled his car. He said had seen a box in the road and thought it was a bomb. He couldn’t go to the movies anymore: too many people. In restaurants, he sat with his back to the wall.

He said that Iraqis were coming to get him. He would call Angela and Dionne at all hours, to talk vaguely about the “demons” that followed him all day and in his dreams. He became a Baptist, doggedly searching Scripture on his lunch hour — for solace. His friends knew he was also getting high with spray cans bought at computer stores.

“He would call me in the middle of the day,” Ms. Minor said. “I’d be like: ‘Why are you at Best Buy? Why aren’t you at work?’ I could tell he’d been drinking and huffing again.”

His friends tried an intervention, showing up at his door in October 2005 and demanding his guns and cans of solvent. He refused to give them up.

Hours later, gripped by delusions, he shot up his apartment. He was glad when the SWAT team arrived, Ms. Knapp said, because then he could tell them where the Iraqis were. He was arrested and discharged, and later moved to Pinehurst, N.C. His parents tried to get him help, but nothing worked. “He just couldn’t get over the war,” his mother, Maureen, told a reporter. “Joseph never came home.”

It’s not clear what therapy and medication could have saved Mr. Dwyer. He admitted lying on a post-deployment questionnaire about what he had seen and suffered because he just wanted to get back to his family. Ms. Minor said he sometimes skipped therapy appointments in El Paso. One thing that did seem to help, Ms. Knapp and Ms. Minor said, was peer counseling from a fellow veteran, a man who had been ambushed in Iraq and knew about fear and death. But that was too little, too late, and both women say they are frustrated with the military for letting Mr. Dwyer slip away.

Private Dwyer, who survived rocket-propelled grenades and shocking violence, made his way back to his family and friends. But part of him was also stuck forever on a road in Iraq, helpless and terrified, with nobody to carry him to safety.

PTSD is wreaking havoc on returning soldiers, and each and every single story is tragic and sad. Worse, the DoD still doesn't know how to deal with PTSD and the problems associated with it, and the services' inflexibility is causing many soldiers to be unceremoniously booted from the service, losing their right to medical help.

We can disagree about going to Iraq in the first place, but I can't believe we aren't doing more to help the soldiers who served.

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

I can't believe we aren't doing more to help the soldiers who served.

That's a sentiment I think we can all agree on. I've always been a believer that we should do far more for our veterans that we ever have.

[MrBug708]

It didn’t help that El Paso looked a lot like Iraq.

Burn!