2015-2016 Republican Primary Season - Trump Courts the Conservatives

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

If you want to talk about the problems with living in bubbles and demanding everyone think the same, I'm all for it, but to ignore the speech attacks from the right on entertainers, teachers, journalists, etc. and limit the discussion to left=Hitler is ridiculous.

I think the Hitler comparisons go both ways.

[SirFozzie]

For those who think that putting pressure on companies to be more LGBT friendly by arranging boycotts is "Silencing Free-Speech", where were you during the "Boycott Disney for having a Gay Pride Day" or "Boycott Starbucks because their CEO take stands I disagree with).

In short, people are upset that their intolerance isn't tolerated.

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

For those who think that putting pressure on companies to be more LGBT friendly by arranging boycotts is "Silencing Free-Speech", where were you during the "Boycott Disney for having a Gay Pride Day" or "Boycott Starbucks because their CEO take stands I disagree with).

In short, people are upset that their intolerance isn't tolerated.

Realistically? They probably weren't doing anything since only a very small amount of people participated in those boycotts.

[SirFozzie]

True, or maybe it was "Silencing Free Speech that I don't like" for them.

[EagleFan]

Originally Posted by Solecismic

You can read about 1930s Germany and see many differences. The whole Hitler thing is actually closer to the left and proposed restrictions on speech than it is Trump.

You need to do a little more research.


Hitler's approach.... vilify a group as a cause of the problem
Trump's approach... check

Hitler's approach... stir his supporters up to where violence is threatened against his opposition
Trump's approach... check

Hitler's promise... restoring Germany to greatness
Trump's approach... check

Hitler's approach... cult of personality speeches that really define very little other than stirring up a crowd
Trump's approach... check



Trump promotes racism and intolerance and that is eaten up. I can't throw a stone on facebook without hitting someone doing that. Each person that I know who supports him were all HUGE Tea Party supporters and complained about Obama for exact things that the psychopath has done. They have a Tea Party option yet they treat that person as if he were a clinton. If their Tea Party choice was named Ted Smith they would be 100% behind him, no doubt in my mind. That deserves to be called out.

Hell, the biggest racist on this board shows that point clearly... not that he hides his racism.

[NobodyHere]

Who did people compare the parties they hated to before Hitler came around?

This is kind of a serious question.

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by EagleFan

You need to do a little more research.


Hitler's approach.... vilify a group as a cause of the problem
Trump's approach... check

Hitler's approach... stir his supporters up to where violence is threatened against his opposition
Trump's approach... check

Hitler's promise... restoring Germany to greatness
Trump's approach... check

Hitler's approach... cult of personality speeches that really define very little other than stirring up a crowd
Trump's approach... check

Hell, the biggest racist on this board shows that point clearly... not that he hides his racism.

Your checklist could also very easily apply to Bernie Sanders

[Buccaneer]

Originally Posted by digamma

I'm really lost on that example, Bucc. Isn't that an example of the free market at work? Customers suggesting that a company alter its business practices? The company can do as it wishes and must make a business decision based on customers it might lose from either decision. What am I missing on this one?

I think the comparison to Hitler is really poor. The argument that certain tactics in promoting or over promoting tolerance may have a chilling effect on certain groups or individuals who for whatever reason, religious or otherwise, don't share the same views may have some validity. And though I'm not sure anyone will argue that some don't go too far in "shouting down" those that don't share their viewpoint, it's a far cry from Nazi Germany.

It's worth keeping in mind that the individuals and opinions being championed by the "shouters down" are those that have been silenced, whether intentionally or unintentionally, for generations--and ironically those that were quite literally silenced by the Nazis.

I agree that the comparison to Hitler is poor. As far as UltraViolet/Amazon, I think it's a subtle difference in organizing boycotts as consumers (i.e., telling fellow customers not to buy) vs. telling a company that they should not sell certain products. Amazon has every right to sell or not sell products (e.g., Confederate materials) but something doesn't seem right when a group wants to "silence" opportunities for their opponents to show support by buying legitimate products.

[Solecismic]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

Your checklist could also very easily apply to Bernie Sanders

I was going to point that out as well. Any populist candidate, really. But the clamoring to eliminate the First Amendment rights of others is coming mainly from the left these days. You don't see Trump supporters trying to shut down Bernie or Hillary rallies. You don't see organized efforts to restrict speech like you do on college campuses.

I'm not big on bringing Hitler into political discussions, but if he's going to be there, the left seems to own him a little more these days. You can say there's a slippery slope from Trump's policy statements to rounding up Muslims and Hispanics and killing them, but that seems far more of a stretch than the very real controls advocated by the left over free speech. Not that Trump's policy statements are helpful or encouraging.

[SackAttack]

Originally Posted by EagleFan

You need to do a little more research.


Hitler's approach.... vilify a group as a cause of the problem
Trump's approach... check

That's more of a "demagogue's approach" than specific to Hitler, though. And, let's be honest, the list of politicians who don't do that to some degree is much, MUCH smaller than the list of those who do.

Hitler's approach... stir his supporters up to where violence is threatened against his opposition
Trump's approach... check

And, in some cases, the violence happens. And then the assaulted are blamed for having the temerity to have their faces near the assaulter's fists. THAT is common to both Hitler and Trump in a way that those who try to go "b-b-but the left!" can't loop in with Bernie Sanders (or any other favorite punching bag for conservatives).

Hitler's promise... restoring Germany to greatness
Trump's approach... check

"Morning in America." Ronald Reagan.

Hitler's approach... cult of personality speeches that really define very little other than stirring up a crowd
Trump's approach... check

Demagoguery!

Trump promotes racism and intolerance and that is eaten up. I can't throw a stone on facebook without hitting someone doing that.

That and the "stir up violence and blame the victims" bit are probably the closest ties on the checklist between Hitler and Trump. The rest are straight out of the Demagogue's Handbook and not necessarily much more than ancillary evidence for such a position.

Hell, the biggest racist on this board shows that point clearly... not that he hides his racism.

Kind of a more virulent Manny Ramirez, really.

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

Your checklist could also very easily apply to Bernie Sanders

It's vague enough that you could probably apply it to nearly any contemporary populist.

Originally Posted by Solecismic

Any populist candidate, really.

Er, Jim beat me to that.

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by Solecismic

You don't see Trump supporters trying to shut down Bernie or Hillary rallies. You don't see organized efforts to restrict speech like you do on college campuses.

I'm pretty sure they'd be all for the busting of heads of OWS or BLM protesters.

[AENeuman]

Originally Posted by Solecismic

you can say there's a slippery slope from Trump's policy statements to rounding up Muslims and Hispanics and killing them, but that seems far more of a stretch than the very real controls advocated by the left over free speech.

That "stretch" is the whole point. For hitler, up until the moment it wasn't a stretch, it was.

Also, the conservative limits on sex Ed free speech is far more rampant and damaging than what is happening on college campuses.

[Solecismic]

Originally Posted by AENeuman

That "stretch" is the whole point. For hitler, up until the moment it wasn't a stretch, it was.

Also, the conservative limits on sex Ed free speech is far more rampant and damaging than what is happening on college campuses.

Germany was a very gradual process. The first manifestations were seen with the brownshirts as early as the 1910s - more than 20 years before Kristallnacht marked the beginning of the end. Hitler didn't even start this movement. People didn't want to believe what was happening, but pretty much every year between WWI and WWII, the situation became noticeably worse. One person couldn't do that. It was a global movement, tied in very closely with eugenics, which was popular even before WWI.

I'm not sure I follow the limitations on sex ed free speech. I really hope there aren't many college students who don't know the basics of sex ed. And if they do try to get information, no one physically shuts down their meetings.

But there is a comparison to some of those protests of Planned Parenthood, if that's where you're going.

[Butter]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

Your checklist could also very easily apply to Bernie Sanders

This is the first time I've heard "personality" and "Bernie Sanders" paired together. Everything's coming up Bernie!

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by Solecismic

You don't see Trump supporters trying to shut down Bernie or Hillary rallies. You don't see organized efforts to restrict speech like you do on college campuses.

You cannot live in this much of a bubble.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by Solecismic

You don't see Trump supporters trying to shut down Bernie or Hillary rallies.

You're talking about a candidate who happily encourages his supporters to assault those who do not agree with them.

I'm not big on bringing Hitler into political discussions, but if he's going to be there, the left seems to own him a little more these days.

What is this statement besides an attempt to smear "the left" through association? It's an assertion you can't even prove, even if we didn't consider it ridiculous.

You can say there's a slippery slope from Trump's policy statements to rounding up Muslims and Hispanics and killing them, but that seems far more of a stretch than the very real controls advocated by the left over free speech. Not that Trump's policy statements are helpful or encouraging.

Give examples of "very real controls" that are more than college students bitching or campuses being stupid.

[Kodos]

There's also the attempt to restrict the teaching of evolution in public schools. That's not coming from the left.

[King of New York]

Originally Posted by AENeuman

That "stretch" is the whole point. For hitler, up until the moment it wasn't a stretch, it was.

Exactly. Prior to the Nazi seizure of power, and even for a few years afterward, German fascists liked to utter threats and tip-toe up to the line between rhetoric and action, sometimes even sticking a toe across that line before skittering back. And people (both German conservatives and those on the left) dismissed it as mere posturing--until it wasn't just posturing anymore.

Solecismic, like you, I have no sympathy for College activists who threaten to beat up journalists, who seize public spaces for themselves, and who impose speech codes. I don't sympathize with those who try to disrupt Trump rallies either--I want to see Trump lose, but he needs to be defeated on the field of ideas and by the ballot box, not by outshouting him.

But we need more conservatives to be like Max Boot and Robert Kagan. Instead of reflexively trying to defend Trump because people with whom they disagree politically oppose Trump, those conservatives have had the courage to point out the danger that Trump and anyone like Trump poses to democracy. If other modern conservatives don't do the same, they might wind up like the German conservatives of the 1930s, tactically allying with fascists until it was too late.

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by AENeuman

That "stretch" is the whole point. For hitler, up until the moment it wasn't a stretch, it was.

Also, the conservative limits on sex Ed free speech is far more rampant and damaging than what is happening on college campuses.

Originally Posted by Solecismic

I'm not sure I follow the limitations on sex ed free speech. I really hope there aren't many college students who don't know the basics of sex ed. And if they do try to get information, no one physically shuts down their meetings.

There's at the very least a resistance to teaching it in middle school and high school, which is when it is needed. College is too late.

There's also the literature vs evil smut debate which is ongoing: In Virginia classrooms, should parents block sexually explicit literature for their kids? - The Washington Post

Originally Posted by Kodos

There's also the attempt to restrict the teaching of evolution in public schools. That's not coming from the left.

Yeah, there's that too. There's also the matter of how the Civil War is spun, but I think we have other threads on that.


edit: Ok, this is gold though.

[Ben E Lou]

An interesting line of thinking regarding Colorado and the Trump campaign is this whole idea that Trump "will employ the best people." If Team Trump claims it will outmaneuver/outnegotiate Iran, Mexico, Putin, and NATO (to name a few,) I'd like to see them first demonstrate the basic ability to figure out how GOP delegates in Colorado are awarded. If Trump had independent thinkers as his supporters, more than anything else, this debacle *SHOULD* cause them to have a moment of pause, as it cuts to the heart of one of the major claims by his supporters as to why they think he's the best man for the job.

[Ben E Lou]

Dola:

And the foolishness before my post is one of the dumbest arguments I've seen in a political thread at FOFC--which is saying a lot. It should be clear as a bell by now that both sides will try to restrict/block/drown out/hamper/whatever-term-you-want-to-use free speech that they don't like whenever they think they can get away with it. To paraphrase Anderson Cooper, y'all sound like a bunch of five-year-olds with your string of "WELL THEY DO IT, TOO" posts.

[PilotMan]

Way to go Hitler.

[Kodos]

You'll pay for this micro aggression!

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

Who did people compare the parties they hated to before Hitler came around?

This is kind of a serious question.

It is a good question. I think they probably compared them to other politicians their party hated. Or early on in American politics, they probably compared them to monarchists (for the pro-British pols, like Alexander Hamilton) or crazy revolutionaries (for the pro-French revolution pols, like Thomas Jefferson).

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Kodos

There's also the attempt to restrict the teaching of evolution in public schools. That's not coming from the left.

Only the left engages in Political Correctness, don't you know? No one from the right ever tries to shout down people on the left who aren't sufficiently patriotic or anything .

(I did like the term 'Patriotic Correctness' which was used by some for a while to showcase the hypocrisy of the right in complaining about 'PC')

[Kodos]

I like that.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Only the left engages in Political Correctness, don't you know? No one from the right ever tries to shout down people on the left who aren't sufficiently patriotic or anything .

(I did like the term 'Patriotic Correctness' which was used by some for a while to showcase the hypocrisy of the right in complaining about 'PC')

YOU LIE!

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

To paraphrase Anderson Cooper, y'all sound like a bunch of five-year-olds with your string of "WELL THEY DO IT, TOO" posts.

I've got two kids and a job that requires me to act like an adult. If I can't act like a 5-year-old here, where can I?

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

I've got two kids and a job that requires me to act like an adult. If I can't act like a 5-year-old here, where can I?

When I saw that you were the last poster in the thread, I opened it immediately, because I thought you were going to say "WELL JIM STARTED IT!!!!"

[albionmoonlight]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

Who did people compare the parties they hated to before Hitler came around?

This is kind of a serious question.

Napoleon?

[Kodos]

JIM TOUCHED ME!!1!

[Easy Mac]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

I've got two kids and a job that requires me to act like an adult. If I can't act like a 5-year-old here, where can I?

Republican debates.

[Warhammer]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

Napoleon?

He was also known as "The Ogre", another one was Attila the Hun.

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by Kodos

JIM TOUCHED ME!!1!

[flere-imsaho]

@ Ben & Easy Mac.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Easy Mac

Republican debates.

Well done, sir.

[cartman]

We have 5 year old behavior here. Classy 5 year old behavior, the best 5 year old behavior. Behavior 8 year olds wish they had. Believe me when I say kindergarten is the most outstanding it has ever been. We have 5 year old behavior.

[stevew]

Why are they comparing Trump to Hitler when it's clearly got much more of a Pol Pot spin to it?

[albionmoonlight]

Paul Ryan To Rule Out Presidential Bid In Press Conference Tuesday

Means nothing, of course.

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

Dola:

And the foolishness before my post is one of the dumbest arguments I've seen in a political thread at FOFC--which is saying a lot. It should be clear as a bell by now that both sides will try to restrict/block/drown out/hamper/whatever-term-you-want-to-use free speech that they don't like whenever they think they can get away with it. To paraphrase Anderson Cooper, y'all sound like a bunch of five-year-olds with your string of "WELL THEY DO IT, TOO" posts.

FWIW, I think things like "trigger warnings" and "safe spaces" are bs too.

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by cartman

We have 5 year old behavior here. Classy 5 year old behavior, the best 5 year old behavior. Behavior 8 year olds wish they had. Believe me when I say kindergarten is the most outstanding it has ever been. We have 5 year old behavior.

How much 5 year-old behavior does it take to take down an adult argument?

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

Paul Ryan To Rule Out Presidential Bid In Press Conference Tuesday

Means nothing, of course.

Didn't he rule out Speaker, too? Or am I misremembering that one?

[Kodos]

Didn't he say he wouldn't be Speaker if it ate too much of his family time?

[Warhammer]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

How much 5 year-old behavior does it take to take down an adult argument?

Today? One, because the adult argument doesn't want the 5 year old argument to develop a complex when it doesn't win.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by Kodos

Didn't he say he wouldn't be Speaker if it ate too much of his family time?

The Obama Presidency - 2008 & 2012 - Page 515 - Front Office Football Central

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by Warhammer

Today? One, because the adult argument doesn't want the 5 year old argument to develop a complex when it doesn't win.

Bah. Things were so much simpler in 2005.

[Solecismic]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

There's at the very least a resistance to teaching it in middle school and high school, which is when it is needed. College is too late.

There's also the literature vs evil smut debate which is ongoing:

What you don't see, though, is parents going to schools and shouting down teachers. And the argument is about the content of what's being taught to children, not whether a teacher can speak at all.

So it's not a First Amendment question related to the speaker himself or herself.

We can argue whether content in public grade schools should be censored, because attendance is compulsory and kids are still developing. But the local preacher, for example, doesn't have a First Amendment right to insist that the Bible is taught.

So the sex ed question is framed by that concept. If someone wants to open a business where sex ed is taught to children and attempts were made to shut that down, that would be a more comparable situation.

And I think the Planned Parenthood protests are the closest comparison. The goal is not to educate anyone or even to exercise free speech. The goal is to shut down those clinics.

The literature/smut debate, especially along the lines of People v. Larry Flynt, seems relevant. If that sort of thing were happening with Trump supporters.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Kodos

JIM TOUCHED ME!!1!

Where?

Can you show us on this doll?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

And I'm reminded that it's not a fight you're going to win, Jon. Maybe that's a bit of why you're so angry at folks, you think the stakes are too high, and know that history probably will not be kind to your views...

History is written by the victors, that's for sure.

That probably connects with why I have no hesitation about the importance of winning by any means necessary, as well as why I'd rather see ashes than a loss.

[larrymcg421]

Is anyone suggesting Trump or his supporters be arrested or fined for his speech? To me that's where you could get into Hitler comparisons.

We could debate whether protests or boycotts go too far, but that's a free speech debate, not a first amendment debate. And you'd be arguing to limit free speech of one group (protesters) over another (those being protested). I'm not immune to the idea that the left can go overboard with that, but to argue that the left is the only side engaging in that requires willfully closing your eyes to what is happening on the right, and to argue that it is comparable to Hitler is just ridiculous beyond belief.