MacGowan's patchable grappling suggestions

[MacGowan]

Quote: Originally Posted by MartialMind

Please. I want what you guys want, but we have to present it more intelligently and more specifically.

So I posted a few of these in another thread about grappling, but I figured I'd flesh them out and put them up as its own thread, that way it won't drown in the noise.


There are plenty of problems I have with the current grappling in this game, the transition denials that I've never seen anyone IRL use. The submission system that straight up looks like the blueprint of a space station, further exaggerates the problem of "fans just wanna stand N band".

I think this picture says it all.

As well as the animation that is so static compared to the fluid striking. I think it's fair that we can say the grappling could use some love.

HOWEVER I'm not here to ask EA to revamp their grappling system. I'm here to add some suggestions I believe are PATCHABLE within reason, balanced, and that can really liven up the grappling for both the wrestling fans who want depth and tactical elements, as well as the stand and brawl types who would feel more comfortable with some simple and aesthetic changes.


1: Allow you to follow a Knocked Down fighter to the ground

There is definitely this awkward window where you knock a fighter down, and he either just bounces back to his feet on a spring board, or you flail around in the air unable to do much as you wait for him to get up. It feels like the game is hindering you from actually taking it to the ground. My suggestion is: depending on the timing you jump on him, you enter into different positions. turtle, back clinch, half guard. he's still rocked and you have the advantage to finish the fight.

2: balancing the TakeDown/Clinch Denial window

Not a lot to say about this one. People are complaining about the denial window on Clinch and TD. It's either too hard or too dangerous. I'm pretty confident in EA looking into this one for balancing purposes.

3: Easier clinch entry

Right now because of the control scheme and denial window getting into a clinch feels almost like you're doing the opposite of what you want to do. maybe you're getting lit up on your feet and you want to just grab 'em and ride out the storm. Instead you have to move the joystick AWAY from the fighter you want to move TOWARDS, hold in a different trigger than the one you use to defend your head with, and hold it there for a solid second. aaaaand you're knocked out....

What you kinda want to happen is the opposite. Clinching is often used to neutralise inside boxing. It should be a very nice deterrent against super aggressive sluggers. but right now it isn't. When you fight a wrestler inside boxing is not something you'd wanna do if you're worried about grappling. Even to the point that I'd be ok with it AUTO CLINCHING if you get way too close to an opponent (wait! hear me out!)

4: Single collar: Neutral, but deadly

This brings me to the next point. Single Collar should be more faster and deadlier. You can get the single collar EASY, but now you have to watch your head, cuz that inside boxer can still knock it off with a clean uppercut or hook. So fear not! your friend can still be Mike Tyson! Mike Tyson was deadly in the clinch. he can easily break the clinch. thus creating a better balance where an inside boxer can STILL apply pressure if he knows how to punch you, get clinched (or clinch you), give you a few solid before one of you gets out. But you can also get the single collar and quickly move into over under.

5: Light strikes in clinch not cancelling transitions

So, if you like being a wrestler, you can transition fast enough, or with timing block and transition. Now we have some balance!

6: Clinch movement sped up

Also, while this is happening you are both moving around fluidly and fast. This can be both ways, so maybe you let him push you towards the cage before you circle around, and maybe one has the upper hand because of clinch stats. This is pretty important for a lot of reasons, but one is definitely for the casual viewer. The clinch would now look fun. The fighters could move fast in the clinch, and it would bridge the gap aesthetically (as well as functionally as i will get to) the clinch would LOOK and FEEL more like you're still actually fighting. And newbies wouldn't shy away from it so much.

7: Movement on the ground

Same with on the ground. One problem with the ground is you get the fight on the ground and you just sort of lie there in the middle of the octagon, waiting to deny a transition. Allow us to use the left joystick to move on the ground. With the top fighter having more of the power (depending on the position). Here's why:

8: More benefits for grappling against the cage

If there was a bonus (or more of a bonus) of putting your opponent against the cage there would be a real incentive in the clinch and ground to take it there. Perhaps his punches would deal far less damage for him while he's clinched against the cage, and his stamina would suffer. That way if you're getting lit up as Stipe, you have the option of quickly clinching Francis against the cage, getting your stamina back while you slowly drain his. Then when the time is right, you take him down. Of course for this we also would need:

9: Seated Cage positions

Quote: Originally Posted by GameplayDevUFC

Why add something like a seated cage position which is one of the top requests I see often when comparing us to UD3? It wouldn't add to the function at all.

I'm not sure, but I think when people ask for the seated cage position they do so believing the devs would add a significant bonus to the top player. So if you're Khabib and he's denying your transitions in the middle of the octagon in half guard, you can push him against the cage into a seated cage half guard, now he has even less stamina to work with, and your punches are deadlier. The revenge of the grinder.

This all means you now have an added tactical depth to the clinch and ground game.

10:Late TakeDown Denials resulting in double underhooks

Been said a bunch of times here. I'd love it if late TDDs end up in double underhooks. Also with the added speed of clinch movement, a late denial could easily end up against the cage, where the pressuring wrestler would have the advantage.

11: More blocks against striking.

I wish I could block in Side Control and Half Guard. I understand that L2 and R2 are used to deny and submit, but It does feel weird to me. Allow us to block low and high in almost every position! That way a striker would feel more in control. The control scheme can be complex enough as it is, and it doesn't help when they change depending on the scenario

12: More strikes in grappling, as well as a more coherent control scheme.

Same with attack. If you're in turtle and I wanna uppercut you, it should be O△, If I wanna kick (knee) it should be X or O. If i wanna punch your body L2-▢ or L2-△. It should be reliable all the way through. Or as much as possible. Right now, in some positions, using L2-▢ won't do anything, and you don't know that before you try the position, and he transitions out while you sit there tapping buttons that now don't do anything. Linking this up would further merge the two worlds of striking and grappling. Now that a newbie striker can at least rely on the controls he already knows.

In closing, I'll end with one that's a little off the beaten path.

Bonus: Simple submissions cost stamina.

I think if with settings: Simple submissions: On It might be great if they make pressing the X button cost a liiiiittle bit of stamina, that way it adds a depth of choosing to power out of a submission at the cost of your stamina, or choosing to lock in a submission at the danger of gassing out. Or if you play it safe you might feel the other person out: He's not mashing the X button, so you just mash a little faster than he is. Or maybe you got the 3rd-5th round stamina perks, so you just apply the submissions to make him work enough.


All this would bring balanced depth to grappling, bridge the scary transition for newbies, while still making it fast and exciting.




EDIT. ADDED ON APRIL 10TH
13: Simple power out option

Most beginners I've played with mash X when taken down or clinched. I wonder if they could add a control input from: "pressing X button quickly over three times is not strikes, but GET UP/BREAK attempt that builds up as you press it - costing larger amount of stamina, depending on the power ratings/grappling ratings."

It could be linked to your stamina. Maybe it would be easier to deny. but it might be an easier transition for newbies. That might let them freak out, kick the wrestler off, if they've got the muscles, and burn themselves out doing so. instead now a newbie will just punch you once in the head on the ground before you move into top mount. where he will go "what the hell happened??"

[iceberg3445]

Thanks for posting this.

Adding to your double underhooks idea (point 10), I would really like to see more advanced takedown defense outcomes in the future (I.e. more takedown to clinch animations and new standing grapple positions for takedowns defended late).

This would make takedowns less binary and add that sense of struggle that everyone is taking about.


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[iverson91]

Great job, I don't know how likealy any of this is to be patched in tho. Sadly we may have to wait for UFC 4 for this.

[MacGowan]

Thank you!
I don't know, as I've said before; it would be mind boggling to me if the patches keep focusing on balancing the striking. I believe they NEED to start focusing on the grappling. right now.

[iverson91]

Quote: Originally Posted by MacGowan

Thank you! I don't know, as I've said before; it would be mind boggling to me if the patches keep focusing on balancing the striking. I believe they NEED to start focusing on the grappling. right now.

To me the devs have shown they couldn't care less about the grappling for this game. I really do think we will have to wait until UFC 4 for any grappling changes.

[Phillyboi207]

Quote: Originally Posted by iverson91

To me the devs have shown they couldn't care less about the grappling for this game. I really do think we will have to wait until UFC 4 for any grappling changes.

Not true

Devs listen to whatever the consensus wants

If we want grappling changes we have to keep talking about it.

[Zeta Reticulan1]

Quote: Originally Posted by MacGowan

3: Easier clinch entry Right now because of the control scheme and denial window getting into a clinch feels almost like you're doing the opposite of what you want to do. maybe you're getting lit up on your feet and you want to just grab 'em and ride out the storm. Instead you have to move the joystick AWAY from the fighter you want to move TOWARDS, hold in a different trigger than the one you use to defend your head with, and hold it there for a solid second. aaaaand you're knocked out.... What you kinda want to happen is the opposite. Clinching is often used to neutralise inside boxing. It should be a very nice deterrent against super aggressive sluggers. but right now it isn't.

Number 3 big time. It should be easier to use the clinch to neutralize inside boxing. The controls definitely don't help. It should be L1 + TOWARDS the opponent for single collar, not L2 + up.

I really like all of the clinch ideas btw, but this one big time.

[MacGowan]

Quote: Originally Posted by iverson91

To me the devs have shown they couldn't care less about the grappling for this game. I really do think we will have to wait until UFC 4 for any grappling changes.

Ah, I'm not sure why they would not care about grappling in the patches, and then care about the grappling for UFC4? If the patches continue to focus on striking balance I can imagine a UFC 4 with marginal improvements in grappling (enough to silence the hardcore mma fans) but a "brand new head movement engine we worked 2 years on".

Quote: Originally Posted by Phillyboi207

Not true Devs listen to whatever the consensus wants If we want grappling changes we have to keep talking about it.

That scares me though. You can't make a game through Twitter. A crowd can say what's wrong with a painting, but you can't ask them how to paint it.