Balance means nothing when the game is incomplete

[MartialMind]

Re: Balance means nothing when the game is incomplete

I think it is very important to make sure you know EXACTLY what you're asking for, before asking for it.

Function:
An activity or purpose natural to or intended for a person or thing.

Example: The function of a phone is to make and receive calls. If a phone manufacturer gives you a phone that does JUST that, he has created a product that fulfills it's function. Now, is it nice to also have a phone that can take pictures, record videos, connect to the Internet, store music, has a big enough screen, is lightweight, durable, etc? Well yes... but all that extra feature simply enhances the experience, it doesn't make the phone any more functional.

Geoff gave two examples here. Takedown struggles and the cage seated position... he argues that these wouldn't add to the function and he is correct.

What is the point (Function) of going for a Takedown? To get the fight to the ground.
What is the point (Function) of Takedown defense? To prevent a Takedown from happening.

In EA UFC 3, we have Takedowns, and we have Takedown defense.... Do these fulfill their function? Yes they do.

It is implied that when a takedown is attempted, there's a struggle... A visual struggle animation doesn't make the Takedown or Takedown defense more functional... it simply enhances the experience AKA Flash.

What about the cage seated position? This is a position you get to when a fight gets to the ground near the cage. Functionally, what does that have to do with a fight getting to the ground? You CAN take a fight to the ground in this game and you CAN fight on the ground in different positions, a SPECIFIC position simply enhances the experience of fighting on the ground... without it, ground fighting still functions, so it isn't a requirement for function.

Let me make it 100% clear. I WOULD ABSOLUTELY love to have Takedown struggles, cage seated positions etc, but it's important to know what you're asking for. Hell someone here was saying UD3 is a more functional MMA game because it has different striking animations. No bro.... more striking animations absolutely enhances the experience but it doesn't make the game more functional.

UD3 is the more flashy game. It is packed with content, LOTS of different animations, but that's it. We should ask for this SPECIFICALLY when making comparisons to UD3. Please. I want what you guys want, but we have to present it more intelligently and more specifically.

[MacGowan]

Re: Balance means nothing when the game is incomplete

Please. I want what you guys want, but we have to present it more intelligently and more specifically.

I mean, honestly that's asking a bit much of the internet.

crowds are better at pointing out what's wrong with a certain work of art rather than how to fix it.

[iceberg3445]

Re: Balance means nothing when the game is incomplete

I think it is very important to make sure you know EXACTLY what you're asking for, before asking for it.

Function:
An activity or purpose natural to or intended for a person or thing.

Example: The function of a phone is to make and receive calls. If a phone manufacturer gives you a phone that does JUST that, he has created a product that fulfills it's function. Now, is it nice to also have a phone that can take pictures, record videos, connect to the Internet, store music, has a big enough screen, is lightweight, durable, etc? Well yes... but all that extra feature simply enhances the experience, it doesn't make the phone any more functional.

Geoff gave two examples here. Takedown struggles and the cage seated position... he argues that these wouldn't add to the function and he is correct.

What is the point (Function) of going for a Takedown? To get the fight to the ground.
What is the point (Function) of Takedown defense? To prevent a Takedown from happening.

In EA UFC 3, we have Takedowns, and we have Takedown defense.... Do these fulfill their function? Yes they do.

It is implied that when a takedown is attempted, there's a struggle... A visual struggle animation doesn't make the Takedown or Takedown defense more functional... it simply enhances the experience AKA Flash.

What about the cage seated position? This is a position you get to when a fight gets to the ground near the cage. Functionally, what does that have to do with a fight getting to the ground? You CAN take a fight to the ground in this game and you CAN fight on the ground in different positions, a SPECIFIC position simply enhances the experience of fighting on the ground... without it, ground fighting still functions, so it isn't a requirement for function.

Let me make it 100% clear. I WOULD ABSOLUTELY love to have Takedown struggles, cage seated positions etc, but it's important to know what you're asking for. Hell someone here was saying UD3 is a more functional MMA game because it has different striking animations. No bro.... more striking animations absolutely enhances the experience but it doesn't make the game more functional.

UD3 is the more flashy game. It is packed with content, LOTS of different animations, but that's it. We should ask for this SPECIFICALLY when making comparisons to UD3. Please. I want what you guys want, but we have to present it more intelligently and more specifically.

Well said.

The clinch, a very important functional element of MMA, is in dire need of attention in this game.

As for the takedowns struggles, takedowns can be chained and add new functions to the gameplay; not just new animations.

For example, shoot for a single leg, opponent defends late in the window, this results in a new single leg standing position. From there, both players have various options. The player going for the takedown can ankle pick, sweep, run the pipe, break, etc. The player defending can reverse the takedown, go for a sub, break, etc.

In this situation, chainable takedowns WOULD add a function to the game.


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[Phillyboi207]

Re: Balance means nothing when the game is incomplete

Even using your definition

How does struggle(or chaining TD like I described) not help get the fight to the ground???

Right now a denial leads to no take down. What we’re talking about is a denial possibly leading to a takedown. So in theory is that not improving the functionality? If you upgraded your phone’s signal so it can receive calls from more locations is that not improving functionality?

Seated cage position is more about grappling than just takedowns. It’s functionality is control not just getting someone to the ground. Control leads to “breaking” someone. I already explained how that applies.

[chia]

Re: Balance means nothing when the game is incomplete

If you are looking for incomplete look no further than Ultimate Team. The balances/patches/tuners that go into "fixing" Ranked seem to only make UT gameplay worse and worse.

[MacGowan]

Re: Balance means nothing when the game is incomplete

Ok, well here are a few fixes I believe can be patched in, and give some depth and action to the grappling.

Firstly:

• - Off course balancing the TakeDown/Clinch Denial window, that's a given.
• - Any new animations they can throw our way to make the grappling look more fluid.
• - punches in clinch not cancelling transitions the way they do.
• - ALLOW YOU TO EASILY FOLLOW A KNOCKED DOWN FIGHTER TO THE GROUND!
• - Maybe not patchable? But make more positions on the ground be able to block strikes from.

1: Easier clinch entry

Right now because of the control scheme and denial window getting into a clinch feels almost like you're doing the opposite of what you want to do. maybe you're getting lit up on your feet and you want to just grab 'em and ride out the storm. Instead you have to move the joystick AWAY from the fighter you want to move towards, hold in a different trigger than the one you use to defend your head with, and hold it there for a solid second. aaaaand you're knocked out....

What you kinda want to happen is almost the opposite. Clinching is often used to neutralise inside boxing. It could be a very nice deterrent against this super aggressive slugfest that is occurring. Even to the point that I'd be ok with it AUTO CLINCHING if you get too close to an opponent (wait! hear me out!)

2: Single collar: Neutral, but deadly

This brings me to the next point. Single Collar should be more faster and deadlier. You can get the single collar EASY, but now you have to watch your head, cuz that inside boxer can still knock it off with a clean uppercut or hook. he can also easily break the clinch. thus creating a better balance where an inside boxer can STILL apply pressure if he knows how to punch you, get clinched (or clinch you), give you a few solid before one of you gets out. But you can also get the single collar and quickly move into over under. Balance!

3: Clinch movement sped up

Also, while this is happening you are both moving around fluidly. This can be both ways, so maybe you let him push you towards the cage before you circle around, and maybe one has the upper hand because of clinch stats. This is pretty important for a lot of reasons, but one is definitely for the casual viewer too. The clinch now looks fun, if the fighters could move fast in the clinch it would bridge the gap aesthetically (as well as functionally as i will get to) the clinch would LOOK and FEEL more like you're still actually fighting. And newbies wouldn't shy away from it so damn much.

4: More benefits for clinching against the cage

If there was a bonus (or more of a bonus?) of putting your opponent against the cage there would be an incentive in the clinch to take it there. Perhaps his punches would deal less damage while clinched against the cage, and his stamina would suffer. That way if you're getting lit up as DC or Stipe, you have the option of quickly clinching him against the cage, getting your stamina back while you slowly drain his, then when the time is right take him down, or break it off to continue the stand up striking.

5:Late TakeDown Denials resulting in double underhooks

Been said a bunch of times here. I'd love it if late TKDs end up in double underhooks. Also with the added speed of clinch movement, a late denial could easily end up against the cage, where the pressuring wrestler would have the advantage.



In closing, I'll end with one that's a little off the beaten path.

Bonus: Simple submissions cost stamina.

I think if with settings: Simple submissions: On It might be great if they make pressing the X button cost a liiiiittle bit of stamina, that way it adds a depth of choosing to power out of a submission at the cost of your stamina, or choosing to lock in a submission at the danger of gassing out. Or if you play it safe you might feel the other person out: He's not mashing the X button, so you just mash a little faster than he is. Or maybe you got the 3rd-5th round stamina perks, so you just apply the submissions to make him work enough.

[johnmangala]

Re: Balance means nothing when the game is incomplete

I think it is very important to make sure you know EXACTLY what you're asking for, before asking for it.

Function:
An activity or purpose natural to or intended for a person or thing.

Example: The function of a phone is to make and receive calls. If a phone manufacturer gives you a phone that does JUST that, he has created a product that fulfills it's function. Now, is it nice to also have a phone that can take pictures, record videos, connect to the Internet, store music, has a big enough screen, is lightweight, durable, etc? Well yes... but all that extra feature simply enhances the experience, it doesn't make the phone any more functional.

Geoff gave two examples here. Takedown struggles and the cage seated position... he argues that these wouldn't add to the function and he is correct.

What is the point (Function) of going for a Takedown? To get the fight to the ground.
What is the point (Function) of Takedown defense? To prevent a Takedown from happening.

In EA UFC 3, we have Takedowns, and we have Takedown defense.... Do these fulfill their function? Yes they do.

It is implied that when a takedown is attempted, there's a struggle... A visual struggle animation doesn't make the Takedown or Takedown defense more functional... it simply enhances the experience AKA Flash.

What about the cage seated position? This is a position you get to when a fight gets to the ground near the cage. Functionally, what does that have to do with a fight getting to the ground? You CAN take a fight to the ground in this game and you CAN fight on the ground in different positions, a SPECIFIC position simply enhances the experience of fighting on the ground... without it, ground fighting still functions, so it isn't a requirement for function.

Let me make it 100% clear. I WOULD ABSOLUTELY love to have Takedown struggles, cage seated positions etc, but it's important to know what you're asking for. Hell someone here was saying UD3 is a more functional MMA game because it has different striking animations. No bro.... more striking animations absolutely enhances the experience but it doesn't make the game more functional.

UD3 is the more flashy game. It is packed with content, LOTS of different animations, but that's it. We should ask for this SPECIFICALLY when making comparisons to UD3. Please. I want what you guys want, but we have to present it more intelligently and more specifically.

Well for one a seated position can aide in FTF scenarios, which I feel should be usable during any KD just gets harder to escape as the KDs progress.



As for struggle in TDs. It's opposite imo, it's more function than flash. That system is fine for reversals imo (sprawl should be a reversal) but the default denial should be some sort of clinch entry.



From there, there are more options, so it's a matter of function.

[Phillyboi207]

Re: Balance means nothing when the game is incomplete

Oh and last thing from me

Different striking animations ABSOLUTELY are related to function.

What is the purpose of striking? To land a strike without getting hit back.

Different animations aide in that by:

1) Creating different timing/rhythm for strikes. Making it harder for your opponent to slip or counter
2) More strikes with built in movement allows you to avoid strikes more fluidly while landing yours

That relates directly to functionality. I’m all for saying you think this game is better but trying to call UD’s game “flash” over “function” is incorrect. That game had a lot of depth to it. So does EA UFC3 in a lot of other ways. Vulnerability is a great idea, momentum based transitions is an amazing idea. But having a lot of varying striking/grappling animations does add to the functionality. Immersion comes from depth, and that’s what EA UFC 3 lacks in a lot of areas by simplifying everything

[Nugget7211]

Re: Balance means nothing when the game is incomplete

https://streamable.com/0xxwt

That is a video of every takedown José Aldo has defended in the UFC (I'm pretty sure). Basically none of them look like they look in game, like arguably the best defensive wrestler in the history of the sport has more struggle in his TDD than CM Punk does in UFC 3.

Wrestling is in my opinion the area that needs to most work, and it's what I'd personally love to see focused on for 4.

[iceberg3445]

Balance means nothing when the game is incomplete

Given the scope of improvements needed to make the clinch a functional part of the game, I highly doubt proper fixes can be patched in.

Allowing players to simultaneously move, strike, transition, & takedown while in the clinch probably will require so many new animations that game devs would really need to go back to the drawing board.

Something that could possibly be patched in are chainable takedowns. Gamedevs would need to change the way takedowns are defended, and set up a system where most defended takedowns result in follow up animations from where players can either continue going for the takedown, move to the clinch, break, etc.

For example, new takedown defense follow up animations for a defended single leg would look like:

-takedown defended preemptive or very early: sprawl.

-takedown defended early: shrug/escape.

-takedown defended in middle of window: over-under clinch.

-takedown defended late in window: *new* standing single leg position from where both players would have grapple options and the player going for the TD would have a slight grapple advantage. (Double legs defended late in window could result in aggressor having double underhooks and slight grapple advantage).

-defended after the takedown defense window: successful single leg takedown to half guard.

Overall, takedowns would be easier to defend, but would more often result in the clinch or new standing grapple positions when takedowns are defended late.

This system would enable more of a struggle for takedowns AND could be expanded on in the future to incorporate more movement, grapple options, striking options, etc.




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[1212headkick]

Re: Balance means nothing when the game is incomplete

I think it is very important to make sure you know EXACTLY what you're asking for, before asking for it.

Function:
An activity or purpose natural to or intended for a person or thing.

Example: The function of a phone is to make and receive calls. If a phone manufacturer gives you a phone that does JUST that, he has created a product that fulfills it's function. Now, is it nice to also have a phone that can take pictures, record videos, connect to the Internet, store music, has a big enough screen, is lightweight, durable, etc? Well yes... but all that extra feature simply enhances the experience, it doesn't make the phone any more functional.

Geoff gave two examples here. Takedown struggles and the cage seated position... he argues that these wouldn't add to the function and he is correct.

What is the point (Function) of going for a Takedown? To get the fight to the ground.
What is the point (Function) of Takedown defense? To prevent a Takedown from happening.

In EA UFC 3, we have Takedowns, and we have Takedown defense.... Do these fulfill their function? Yes they do.

It is implied that when a takedown is attempted, there's a struggle... A visual struggle animation doesn't make the Takedown or Takedown defense more functional... it simply enhances the experience AKA Flash.

What about the cage seated position? This is a position you get to when a fight gets to the ground near the cage. Functionally, what does that have to do with a fight getting to the ground? You CAN take a fight to the ground in this game and you CAN fight on the ground in different positions, a SPECIFIC position simply enhances the experience of fighting on the ground... without it, ground fighting still functions, so it isn't a requirement for function.

Let me make it 100% clear. I WOULD ABSOLUTELY love to have Takedown struggles, cage seated positions etc, but it's important to know what you're asking for. Hell someone here was saying UD3 is a more functional MMA game because it has different striking animations. No bro.... more striking animations absolutely enhances the experience but it doesn't make the game more functional.

UD3 is the more flashy game. It is packed with content, LOTS of different animations, but that's it. We should ask for this SPECIFICALLY when making comparisons to UD3. Please. I want what you guys want, but we have to present it more intelligently and more specifically.

brother on the trailor for this game on your channel you said it was like undisputed - why?

[UltimateTNA]

Re: Balance means nothing when the game is incomplete

It's plausible that EA has been paying people and companies in order to paint this game in a more positive light. The fact is the gaming public hates what EA has done with this series.

[iceberg3445]

Re: Balance means nothing when the game is incomplete

It's plausible that EA has been paying people and companies in order to paint this game in a more positive light. The fact is the gaming public hates what EA has done with this series.

They had a solid foundation with EA MMA. But once EA obtained exclusive rights with UFC, they started from scratch with EA UFC and set themselves back quite a bit. Since then, devs have been playing catch up to create a title on par with MMA games that were available a decade ago.

The clinch (and takedowns I believe) in this game are relics of the monstrosity that was EA UFC 1. That should say something...


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[TheShizNo1]

Re: Balance means nothing when the game is incomplete

once EA obtained exclusive rights with UFC, they started from scratch with EA UFC and set themselves back quite a bit. Since then, devs have been playing catch up to create a title on par with MMA games that were available a decade ago.



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This blows my mind when it's said like this. None of these EA UFC games have given me a reason to get rid of EA MMA or UD3.

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[MysticJack541]

Re: Balance means nothing when the game is incomplete

I know it's not this simple, but could you imagine if EA UFC 4 just copied and pasted the clinch and grappling from UD3 and transfered over the striking from EA3 and continued to build on it adding new animations and fine tuning it ect.... My God it would be the best MMA game ever hands down.

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