Balance means nothing when the game is incomplete

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  • killakrok
    Pro
    • Dec 2006
    • 605

    #61
    Re: Balance means nothing when the game is incomplete

    Originally posted by Magx951
    Adding depth to grappling is not "flash over function" and you should be deeply embarrassed for even saying that.

    I'm not saying any of these things are easy enough to add that they can just be patched in. But your claim that it's all flash is... nonsensical, at best.

    This tells me why there are so many missing elements in the game that to me seem huge, but aren't actually getting any attention or even acknowledgement. So much of what I value and enjoy in an MMA game may have already been dismissed as "flash" or "fluff". So much of what I see missing shows a lack of understanding and perspective when it comes to the sport, as well as many aspect of grappling just not being cared about or considered as grappling continues to be ignored, tacked on, and diminished.

    All of the attention has been on striking and it's obvious that grappling has been kept on as a sidenote. When I realized in the beta that strikes on the ground had no effect on opponent's stamina it made no sense to me for many reasons. Whether you think the stamina mechanic is good or not, it's still ridiculous to have it present in standup and missing on the ground. The edges between striking and grappling are so jagged that there are even two separate stamina bars which only further complicates things unnecessarily, goes as far away from reality as possible, and shows how much of an afterthought grappling is.

    If the grappling isn't going to be touched in 2 years at least have it work seamlessly with the new striking system that got all of the attention; this clearly isn't the case. Takedowns, another area where striking and grappling meet, are also a huge complaint right now. At release there was absolutely no transition between striking and takedowns as you would have to pretty much exit "striking mode" before you could even attempt a takedown which also had little interaction with your opponen't actions. The takedown logic is also ridiculous and is the main reason I can't play this game right now. You can still shoot on a fighter's only standing leg as they are in the middle of a whiffed headkick and they will somehow consistently be able to defy physics and stuff it with two legs because the game said so.

    To say that many of these things are "flash" sounds ridiculous to me as many of the aspects of the game that people feel are missing, misrepresented, or unsatisfying are things that would ultimately add more realism and are also just FUN. Struggle takedowns are not only closer to realism, the mechanics are FUN. It's way more satisfying to go for a takedown, think I landed it, see my opponent starting to get out and having to continue to work before they can rip their last leg out until we hit the mat and I can relax, THAT'S FUN. I press takedown, I know he didn't press his button to stop it, I know I landed it as soon as I connect and now we both wait 6 seconds until something happens that we both know is going to happen the exact same way every single time. That's NOT FUN.

    I used to love setting up certain submissions in UFC 2 just so I could switch to another sub I'd rather have halfway though the first one. I haven't even seen that happen once yet in UFC 3. If you aren't going to improve the ground game why take fun mechanics out? Why is it still possible to infinitely punch your opponent without the possibility of a stoppage from certain ground positions?

    So much in terms of realism and variety seems to be going backwards. On the ground it feels like there are less positions and options as elements are removed, changed, or nerfed out of use which makes certain positions, fighters, and playstyles completely useless.

    It's not like this is the first MMA game attempted and at this point its starting to feel like the genre is years behind where it should be by now compared to the history of other sports games. We've had too many great MMA titles over the years to still be at starting point 0 with so many important core aspects of the sport.

    Comment

    • Magx951
      Banned
      • Apr 2018
      • 22

      #62
      Re: Balance means nothing when the game is incomplete

      Originally posted by Zeta Reticulan1
      I could easily see these getting spammed, but I do think they could implement these. Like leg locks from open guard, just make the transition take longer to prevent spam.
      It doesn't need to take longer. The ground is already full of slow paced transitions and submissions that look ****ing idiotic.

      You can stand up from open guard on the bottom, but you can't try to shoot up a triangle? You can stand up but you can't hip bump?

      The ground game needs to be faster and more fluid, with a focus on danger being everywhere. Strikes do damage from every position and can lead to rocks, and top and bottom guy are always dangerous. Like real life.

      In real life, lots of guard players will be constantly fishing for armbars, triangles etc. That's not "spam"... its real. The easy solution so that EVERYBODY doesn't always do it is to make stamina a larger factor in submissions attempts and make transitions take more effort than awkward unrealistic feints. It should be more of a mixup game based on anticipation of where strikes or passing attempts are going to come from, than a game of flicking to the side over and over and looking for a denial.

      Comment

      • Zeta Reticulan1
        Banned
        • Sep 2017
        • 471

        #63
        Re: Balance means nothing when the game is incomplete

        Originally posted by Magx951
        It doesn't need to take longer. The ground is already full of slow paced transitions and submissions that look ****ing idiotic.

        You can stand up from open guard on the bottom, but you can't try to shoot up a triangle? You can stand up but you can't hip bump?

        The ground game needs to be faster and more fluid, with a focus on danger being everywhere. Strikes do damage from every position and can lead to rocks, and top and bottom guy are always dangerous. Like real life.

        In real life, lots of guard players will be constantly fishing for armbars, triangles etc. That's not "spam"... its real. The easy solution so that EVERYBODY doesn't always do it is to make stamina a larger factor in submissions attempts and make transitions take more effort than awkward unrealistic feints. It should be more of a mixup game based on anticipation of where strikes or passing attempts are going to come from, than a game of flicking to the side over and over and looking for a denial.


        Yeah, definitely don’t want the ground to be any slower. But if they were to add a leg lock from open guard today, I wouldn’t want it being as fast as the other submissions, example throwing up a triangle or armbar. And when I say spam I mean so that everybody doesn’t ALWAYS do it over and over.

        As for this mixup game idea it’s already been done in UD3. They could just go with that as their template for the ground game. I’m starting to warm up to the idea of building off of the current system and making it all momentum based though. This would be much better than any mixup game type ground game like we had in UD3 for example.


        Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports

        Comment

        • Magx951
          Banned
          • Apr 2018
          • 22

          #64
          Re: Balance means nothing when the game is incomplete

          Originally posted by Zeta Reticulan1
          Yeah, definitely don’t want the ground to be any slower. But if they were to add a leg lock from open guard today, I wouldn’t want it being as fast as the other submissions, example throwing up a triangle or armbar. And when I say spam I mean so that everybody doesn’t ALWAYS do it over and over.

          As for this mixup game idea it’s already been done in UD3. They could just go with that as their template for the ground game. I’m starting to warm up to the idea of building off of the current system and making it all momentum based though. This would be much better than any mixup game type ground game like we had in UD3 for example.


          Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports
          Momentum based grappling to be done well would require serious amounts of work and I don't think these devs could pull it off if im being honest.

          I don't understand what you're saying about leg lock from open guard, specifically. Why should a leg lock be significantly slower than the already slow triangle or armbar? it would be unrealistic and just as bad as the current submissions are.

          Again, submissions cost energy. Spam shouldn't be an issue because people who aren't good grapplers constantly trying to get triangles are gonna burn themselves out quickly from the bottom.

          Comment

          • Zeta Reticulan1
            Banned
            • Sep 2017
            • 471

            #65
            Re: Balance means nothing when the game is incomplete

            Originally posted by Magx951
            Momentum based grappling to be done well would require serious amounts of work and I don't think these devs could pull it off if im being honest.

            I don't understand what you're saying about leg lock from open guard, specifically. Why should a leg lock be significantly slower than the already slow triangle or armbar? it would be unrealistic and just as bad as the current submissions are.

            Again, submissions cost energy. Spam shouldn't be an issue because people who aren't good grapplers constantly trying to get triangles are gonna burn themselves out quickly from the bottom.

            I just don’t agree that leg locks should be as fast as arm bars and triangles.

            If they were going to add a leg lock today they would have to make it slower than an armbar or triangle because they aren’t going to magically implement your stamina changes tomorrow.


            Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports

            Comment

            • Magx951
              Banned
              • Apr 2018
              • 22

              #66
              Re: Balance means nothing when the game is incomplete

              Originally posted by Zeta Reticulan1
              I just don’t agree that leg locks should be as fast as arm bars and triangles.

              If they were going to add a leg lock today they would have to make it slower than an armbar or triangle because they aren’t going to magically implement your stamina changes tomorrow.


              Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports
              I mean I'm not asking for any of this stuff to be implemented in a patch any time soon. I know that's not happening

              IRL leg locks can be fast as **** btw

              Comment

              • Zeta Reticulan1
                Banned
                • Sep 2017
                • 471

                #67
                Re: Balance means nothing when the game is incomplete

                Originally posted by Magx951
                I mean I'm not asking for any of this stuff to be implemented in a patch any time soon. I know that's not happening

                IRL leg locks can be fast as **** btw


                Yeah, I wouldn’t really care if they were fast as ****.
                I think the idea of everything being faster on the ground would be better. But my personal take is that I don’t want wrestling to get any weaker than it already is. Could I still be a big a** wet blanket for five rounds if things are sped up on the ground?


                Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports

                Comment

                • Magx951
                  Banned
                  • Apr 2018
                  • 22

                  #68
                  Re: Balance means nothing when the game is incomplete

                  Originally posted by Zeta Reticulan1
                  Yeah, I wouldn’t really care if they were fast as ****.
                  I think the idea of everything being faster on the ground would be better. But my personal take is that I don’t want wrestling to get any weaker than it already is. Could I still be a big a** wet blanket for five rounds if things are sped up on the ground?


                  Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports
                  Of course you could, so long as you were good enough and GNP was also improved.

                  Comment

                  • Zeta Reticulan1
                    Banned
                    • Sep 2017
                    • 471

                    #69
                    Re: Balance means nothing when the game is incomplete

                    Originally posted by Magx951
                    Of course you could, so long as you were good enough and GNP was also improved.


                    Yeah, I’m all for any additions to the ground game and wrestling. Not a lot of guys are interested in this, so us ground and wrestling oriented guys gota be keep being vocal and keep pushing for this. Something WILL happen if more people want ground and wrestling additions/changes.


                    Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports

                    Comment

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