The mysterious art of defending

[iaxy]

The game is a joy to play when in possession of the ball. Passing and especially shooting feel (and look amazing), dribbling less so - but generally it is a rewarding experience if you focus.

Where the game drops the ball is on the defending side (against the CPU).

People have already commented on the CPU's over reliance on low crosses and floated balls to the wingers. That is something which Konami may be able to tone down via a patch, but where I really struggle is defending one on ones.

Even when I am in a good position, cutting a passing lane, pressuring with my midfielder, etc. I can't seem to make a successful tackle or force the CPU to make a mistake to save my life.

What's really frustrating is that no matter how much pressure I put on the ball carrier, no matter how well I track back and cut passing lanes, I can only win the ball back if the CPU makes a mistake, i.e. "chooses" to make a bad pass. And this is not a result of my good positioning. In other words, I feel powerless to influence the CPU's success in attack by trying to play football and force them to make a mistake. Tracking back or standing motionless in one position reap the same result.

The only tactic which seem to help a bit is Gengerpress, but with that you rely on your AI- controlled players to make a tackle. It's not actually you as a user who play good defence.

At least with FIFA, if I pressurise the ball carrier from the right angle at the right time, I have a good chance of stripping the CPU off the ball.

So how do you play successful defence in PES 19?
By the way I play on PS4, Top Player.

[lareka]

Re: The mysterious art of defending

The game is a joy to play when in possession of the ball. Passing and especially shooting feel (and look amazing), dribbling less so - but generally it is a rewarding experience if you focus.

Where the game drops the ball is on the defending side (against the CPU).

People have already commented on the CPU's over reliance on low crosses and floated balls to the wingers. That is something which Konami may be able to tone down via a patch, but where I really struggle is defending one on ones.

Even when I am in a good position, cutting a passing lane, pressuring with my midfielder, etc. I can't seem to make a successful tackle or force the CPU to make a mistake to save my life.

What's really frustrating is that no matter how much pressure I put on the ball carrier, no matter how well I track back and cut passing lanes, I can only win the ball back if the CPU makes a mistake, i.e. "chooses" to make a bad pass. And this is not a result of my good positioning. In other words, I feel powerless to influence the CPU's success in attack by trying to play football and force them to make a mistake. Tracking back or standing motionless in one position reap the same result.

The only tactic which seem to help a bit is Gengerpress, but with that you rely on your AI- controlled players to make a tackle. It's not actually you as a user who play good defence.

At least with FIFA, if I pressurise the ball carrier from the right angle at the right time, I have a good chance of stripping the CPU off the ball.

So how do you play successful defence in PES 19?
By the way I play on PS4, Top Player.

All of them are SPOT-ON. All of them.

I think they will fix the defense, it's not right this way. You stay in front of the attacker yet attacker moves, shoots without getting bothered by it. Tackle - X- doesn't work, so gegenpress and fouling to prevent danger is best options right now. Also it's so frustrating that CPU plays like Spain 2010. Passing the ball, refusing to shoot even inside the penalty box to get 100 % guaranteed close-range shot. They will fix that one too with a patch i think.

Possession and offense is fun, defending is a frustration right now as you pointed out.

[ImmortalMindz]

Re: The mysterious art of defending

Defending in PES 2019 is really underpowered. Or rather, tackling is.

I've now played 100+ matches and I've been paying attention to the tackle and interception numbers after my matches - I almost always have double the interceptions to my tackle numbers and that's backwards. Average numbers in a top level match in the real world usually have tackles about 50% higher than interceptions.

So I think you can defend well enough in PES but something isn't right - it's too difficult to close space on the CPU, which is not only why tackles are so low but it's also why so many CPU teams can pass the ball so well in the final third, because of the space. And because the passing game is over-emphasized in PES, that's why interceptions tend to be high.

I can still defend effectively, especially because the CPU attacking AI is so poor, but something is certainly out of whack when it comes to defending.

[iaxy]

Re: The mysterious art of defending

Defending in PES 2019 is really underpowered. Or rather, tackling is.

I've now played 100+ matches and I've been paying attention to the tackle and interception numbers after my matches - I almost always have double the interceptions to my tackle numbers and that's backwards. Average numbers in a top level match in the real world usually have tackles about 50% higher than interceptions.

So I think you can defend well enough in PES but something isn't right - it's too difficult to close space on the CPU, which is not only why tackles are so low but it's also why so many CPU teams can pass the ball so well in the final third, because of the space. And because the passing game is over-emphasized in PES, that's why interceptions tend to be high.

I can still defend effectively, especially because the CPU attacking AI is so poor, but something is certainly out of whack when it comes to defending.

I agree that there is too much space in PES. More precisely, the pitch seems to be too large (especially in length), which exposes those huge empty spaces in the middle of the pitch when on the break. This has marred the game for some time now.

But this does not necessarily influence the defending. What I was talking about is the inability to force the CPU into making a mistake. Closing down does nothing, Pressuring the ball carrier does nothing. Containing passing lanes does nothing. The CPU will always find a perfect pass, even when its ball carrier is facing the wrong way. This is unless the code decides that the CPU should make an errant pass (to make it more "realistic"). But it's a false economy because these errors are not as a result of you playing good defence. They are random code decisions to balance the game and more often that not occur when I am not even applying pressure.

Defending in FIFA is not perfect by any stretch but at least you can home in on a ball carrier from an angle and then using the AI-controlled second defendeer you can create a "sandwich" and that strips the ball off if you time it correctly. In PES you cannot do that. It feels like you have to wait and hope that the CPU will decide to make a mistake. It's just not fun.

[ImmortalMindz]

Re: The mysterious art of defending

I agree that there is too much space in PES. More precisely, the pitch seems to be too large (especially in length), which exposes those huge empty spaces in the middle of the pitch when on the break. This has marred the game for some time now.

But this does not necessarily influence the defending. What I was talking about is the inability to force the CPU into making a mistake. Closing down does nothing, Pressuring the ball carrier does nothing. Containing passing lanes does nothing. The CPU will always find a perfect pass, even when its ball carrier is facing the wrong way. This is unless the code decides that the CPU should make an errant pass (to make it more "realistic"). But it's a false economy because these errors are not as a result of you playing good defence. They are random code decisions to balance the game and more often that not occur when I am not even applying pressure.

Defending in FIFA is not perfect by any stretch but at least you can home in on a ball carrier from an angle and then using the AI-controlled second defendeer you can create a "sandwich" and that strips the ball off if you time it correctly. In PES you cannot do that. It feels like you have to wait and hope that the CPU will decide to make a mistake. It's just not fun.

I hear ya. I think we're talking about the same problem. But I do think the space is related to what you're saying. Every time the CPU receives a pass from a teammate, they have too much time on the ball because our teammate markers are giving them too much space. So there's no pressure, and by the time you sprint to apply pressure, it's too late.

My thought is this is why you can't influence defending - because you can't get to them soon enough because of the space afforded by the marking settings. This is why I'm winning matches and not conceding often but I'll end the match with 5 tackles or less but often with 15 interceptions.

If the marking was tighter, you'd be able to apply pressure and influence play. At least that's my theory, but I completely agree that as things stand, defending is more frustrating than fun, especially on the higher difficulty settings.

[iaxy]

Re: The mysterious art of defending

I may be onto something...

I often wondered why my players would run in a "locked" trajectory, i.e. a rigid straight line when chasing a ball (or an opponent). I decided to dig a little and came across a video on youtube, which goes in depth about defending.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6-nKDDzOnw&t=28s

Most of the stuff is common sense and good practice, but one thing which the guy mentions repeatedly is "super cancel".

I was aware of the concept and command (pressing RT and R1 simultaneously) but I only ever used this when I didn't want my player to accidentally touch a ball near the touch line, making it go out of bounds.

This video (and other video by the same guy) opened my eyes into using super cancel all the time when wanting to fine tune the movement of your players. Indeed I can now see how using super cancel lets your players run in any direction you want them to - not just in a locked, straight line determined by the AI. This opens up so many possibilities - not just on defence but also when attacking - you are able to get better angles from which to approach or hit the ball.

I tried last night and it is indeed game changing. Such a little detail, which I had never had the interest (or knowledge) to look into, but such a huge impact on your control.

Combined with gangerpress I now feel much more control over my players and I was able to get in much better positions, finally taking some control back (excuse the Brexit pun). This resulted in many more interceptions and good angles for tackles.
Of course it is not perfect, but this may have saved the game for me and I encourage everyone to try it.

Remember super cancel only works when you do not have possession of the ball.

[Matt10]

Re: The mysterious art of defending

I would say this year is the first time in a while that I can defend the same I do on FIFA. I use Legacy defending on FIFA, and this year it feels the same on PES. I control either one of my CMF, and gradually remain in passing lanes. No sprinting around, just teammate pressuring when necessary, however not holding the pressure button for any significant amount of time - unless I see the AI backed into the corner.

Doing this allows my CMF to get back into the box, or at the top, and cut off the occasional low cross or CPU trying to cut through.

When I struggle, and lose matches, it's mainly because my gameplan went to crap or my own self discipline defensively wasn't on point. I know if I'm sprinting around with super cancel or straight lines, I'm in trouble. I'm definitely in trouble if I have to control my CBs too often.

[Spora]

Re: The mysterious art of defending

I hear ya. I think we're talking about the same problem. But I do think the space is related to what you're saying. Every time the CPU receives a pass from a teammate, they have too much time on the ball because our teammate markers are giving them too much space. So there's no pressure, and by the time you sprint to apply pressure, it's too late.

My thought is this is why you can't influence defending - because you can't get to them soon enough because of the space afforded by the marking settings. This is why I'm winning matches and not conceding often but I'll end the match with 5 tackles or less but often with 15 interceptions.

If the marking was tighter, you'd be able to apply pressure and influence play. At least that's my theory, but I completely agree that as things stand, defending is more frustrating than fun, especially on the higher difficulty settings.

This is pretty much how I see this also. AI man marking isn’t as tight as it should be and this combined with broken AI results in ping-pong gameplay. If they patch AI to dribble and tone down first touch passing (and first touch accuracy) gameplay would be much better.

[RoyceDa59]

Re: The mysterious art of defending

I personally find no issue with the amount of tackles that we are seeing per game from a stats standpoint. I always felt like tackles were a little too high in the past and I like what I have seen in regards to Interceptions trending a little higher (maybe a little too high?) as it has led to a more realistic pass percentages which I felt PES has struggled to get right for years even though last years wasn't too bad. If you check the EPL, last year teams averaged between 19 to 14 tackles per game and we really shouldn't be seeing that high amount game to game in footy video game. In FIFA I always felt like you see way too many tackles in just one match which has always bothered me.

[Turbojugend]

Re: The mysterious art of defending

iaxy, I hear what you're saying about Super Cancel defending. I watched the same video for 2018 and it does give you more freedom when controlling your defender. My problem with this is that running around with R1+R2 held down at all times just feels super awkward and counterintuitive from a controller standpoint.

If Super Cancel is indeed the secret to free-form defending, then Konami should just call it "manual defending" and map it to the same button as the other manual controls (L2 I believe).

[ImmortalMindz]

Re: The mysterious art of defending

I personally find no issue with the amount of tackles that we are seeing per game from a stats standpoint. I always felt like tackles were a little too high in the past and I like what I have seen in regards to Interceptions trending a little higher (maybe a little too high?) as it has led to a more realistic pass percentages which I felt PES has struggled to get right for years even though last years wasn't too bad. If you check the EPL, last year teams averaged between 19 to 14 tackles per game and we really shouldn't be seeing that high amount game to game in footy video game. In FIFA I always felt like you see way too many tackles in just one match which has always bothered me.

Why wouldn't we want a realistic number of tackles? We want realistic goal numbers, shot attempts, pass accuracy, shot accuracy - why not tackles?

Regardless of the actual numbers, I'm more concerned with the fact that the interception-to-tackle ratio is backwards in PES because it's indicative of an imbalance in gameplay. In the matches I played yesterday, I had two matches where I finished with almost 30 interceptions but only TWO tackles in each match. I won both, conceding only one goal in the two matches, so I'm solid enough in defense, but the whole experience of defending is just off.

Defending against the CPU this year in PES reminds me of FIFA from several years back when defending was equally as frustrating because on default settings you simply couldn't get close enough to CPU dribblers to apply pressure and influence play. It's almost the same identical issue in PES this year.

This year, especially on the higher difficulty settings, defending in PES is really not representative of what defending should look like, and that's indicated by the wicked imbalance between interceptions and tackles. PES has completely nailed the experience of attacking against the CPU - just passing the ball around is sublime - but when it comes to defending, it's just not right.

[ImmortalMindz]

Re: The mysterious art of defending

I would say this year is the first time in a while that I can defend the same I do on FIFA. I use Legacy defending on FIFA, and this year it feels the same on PES. I control either one of my CMF, and gradually remain in passing lanes. No sprinting around, just teammate pressuring when necessary, however not holding the pressure button for any significant amount of time - unless I see the AI backed into the corner.

Doing this allows my CMF to get back into the box, or at the top, and cut off the occasional low cross or CPU trying to cut through.

When I struggle, and lose matches, it's mainly because my gameplan went to crap or my own self discipline defensively wasn't on point. I know if I'm sprinting around with super cancel or straight lines, I'm in trouble. I'm definitely in trouble if I have to control my CBs too often.

I'm not sure that comparing defending in PES to FIFA's legacy defending is a positive. If anything, it just highlights the issues further.

[RoyceDa59]

Re: The mysterious art of defending

Why wouldn't we want a realistic number of tackles? We want realistic goal numbers, shot attempts, pass accuracy, shot accuracy - why not tackles?

Regardless of the actual numbers, I'm more concerned with the fact that the interception-to-tackle ratio is backwards in PES because it's indicative of an imbalance in gameplay. In the matches I played yesterday, I had two matches where I finished with almost 30 interceptions but only TWO tackles in each match. I won both, conceding only one goal in the two matches, so I'm solid enough in defense, but the whole experience of defending is just off.

Defending against the CPU this year in PES reminds me of FIFA from several years back when defending was equally as frustrating because on default settings you simply couldn't get close enough to CPU dribblers to apply pressure and influence play. It's almost the same identical issue in PES this year.

This year, especially on the higher difficulty settings, defending in PES is really not representative of what defending should look like, and that's indicated by the wicked imbalance between interceptions and tackles. PES has completely nailed the experience of attacking against the CPU - just passing the ball around is sublime - but when it comes to defending, it's just not right.

Its a tricky thing to balance and emulate though something has to lack in Footy games especially since it is the only sports game (I think) where you can't play a full match length on your console or PC. Tackles or successful tackles to be specific which is what the game is recording are not a frequent occurrence throughout matches but see this also depends on the league, play styles etc. If you check La Liga tackles are even lower compared to EPL where interceptions can trend higher. It is also the reason why I mentioned it from a stats standpoint and not even a gameplay perspective which is a whole different thing. We don't even see any of those stats you mentioned 100% accurate but my whole point was that they are close to what you have in the sport and that is fine for me.

But I believe the point of this thread was about the defending and I blame it fully on the AI more than the defending mechanics. As someone who played a lot of matches against other players I felt defending felt great but I also I am not a person who likes to press a lot and tends to control space and play passing lanes. The AI definitely needs some work because I feel like they could also dribble a little more than they do now.

[ImmortalMindz]

Re: The mysterious art of defending

Its a tricky thing to balance and emulate though something has to lack in Footy games especially since it is the only sports game (I think) where you can't play a full match length on your console or PC. Tackles or successful tackles to be specific which is what the game is recording are not a frequent occurrence throughout matches but see this also depends on the league, play styles etc. If you check La Liga tackles are even lower compared to EPL where interceptions can trend higher. It is also the reason why I mentioned it from a stats standpoint and not even a gameplay perspective which is a whole different thing. We don't even see any of those stats you mentioned 100% accurate but my whole point was that they are close to what you have in the sport and that is fine for me.

But I believe the point of this thread was about the defending and I blame it fully on the AI more than the defending mechanics. As someone who played a lot of matches against other players I felt defending felt great but I also I am not a person who likes to press a lot and tends to control space and play passing lanes. The AI definitely needs some work because I feel like they could also dribble a little more than they do now.

Yes, I agree that the real numbers aren't as important. But regardless of which professional league you look at, all the top leagues have a tackle-to-intercept ratio that is close to 2:1. In PES 2019, that ratio is reversed, which to me clearly indicates that something is off.

And I agree, the AI is a big reason - maybe the biggest reason - for this. Not only is the marking too lose and players are making poor positional decisions, but the CPU attacking AI is at fault too. In PES 2019, the CPU almost refuses to take you on in 1-on-1 situations, so of course tackles aren't as high as they should be. The passing game - and first touch passing in particular - is so highly prioritized by the AI, of course that leads to imbalances.

I do think the defensive mechanics themselves are due for a major overhaul though. The defensive side of the game is still so heavily automated that it feels stuck a generation or two ago. (It's kinda funny playing PES after participating in the FIFA beta and seeing people completely up in arms about the assisted defending and improved defensive AI.) But also the double-tap tackle mechanic feels outdated and not particularly suited to the more modern speed of gameplay.

[RoyceDa59]

Re: The mysterious art of defending

Yes, I agree that the real numbers aren't as important. But regardless of which professional league you look at, all the top leagues have a tackle-to-intercept ratio that is close to 2:1. In PES 2019, that ratio is reversed, which to me clearly indicates that something is off.

And I agree, the AI is a big reason - maybe the biggest reason - for this. Not only is the marking too lose and players are making poor positional decisions, but the CPU attacking AI is at fault too. In PES 2019, the CPU almost refuses to take you on in 1-on-1 situations, so of course tackles aren't as high as they should be. The passing game - and first touch passing in particular - is so highly prioritized by the AI, of course that leads to imbalances.

I do think the defensive mechanics themselves are due for a major overhaul though. The defensive side of the game is still so heavily automated that it feels stuck a generation or two ago. (It's kinda funny playing PES after participating in the FIFA beta and seeing people completely up in arms about the assisted defending and improved defensive AI.) But also the double-tap tackle mechanic feels outdated and not particularly suited to the more modern speed of gameplay.

I agree with this it does need to change, honestly I remember reading quite a few concerns about what changes were going to made to the defensive side of the game when PES 19 was first announced and honestly they haven't really announced any new gameplay changes to defence the pass couple of installments besides some new skills and Advance tactics. One thing that always bother me about PES is the amount of successful tackles you see going to the back of the ball carrier, these tackles just don't happen and almost always result in a foul. And the double tap tackle is rather odd because you don't even need to ever use to tackle in this game, but these are good criticisms that definitely need to be fed back to Konami.