The mysterious art of defending

[KG]

Re: The mysterious art of defending

Yes, I agree that the real numbers aren't as important. But regardless of which professional league you look at, all the top leagues have a tackle-to-intercept ratio that is close to 2:1. In PES 2019, that ratio is reversed, which to me clearly indicates that something is off.

And I agree, the AI is a big reason - maybe the biggest reason - for this. Not only is the marking too lose and players are making poor positional decisions, but the CPU attacking AI is at fault too. In PES 2019, the CPU almost refuses to take you on in 1-on-1 situations, so of course tackles aren't as high as they should be. The passing game - and first touch passing in particular - is so highly prioritized by the AI, of course that leads to imbalances.

I do think the defensive mechanics themselves are due for a major overhaul though. The defensive side of the game is still so heavily automated that it feels stuck a generation or two ago. (It's kinda funny playing PES after participating in the FIFA beta and seeing people completely up in arms about the assisted defending and improved defensive AI.) But also the double-tap tackle mechanic feels outdated and not particularly suited to the more modern speed of gameplay.

I think it's mainly attributed to the CPU not trying to dribble you. They'd rather pass it around your defenders, even if they have good 1v1 attackers. I do like the pass error this year though but I'd wish they give us control of the shield command instead of it being contextual. I think you'd see a lot more fouls, especially online, and it would slow the game down some. It would also cut down on the reliance on first touch passes because right now, you don't know if the animation is going to trigger so most people just quickly get rid of it.

As for defending, when playing vs the CPU I like to lock onto one player and let the CPU defend with the other 9. I find that it helps varying up the CPU attack a little because I don't drag players out of position like I do when I'm just pressing all over the pitch.

[Matt10]

Re: The mysterious art of defending

I'm not sure that comparing defending in PES to FIFA's legacy defending is a positive. If anything, it just highlights the issues further.

Basically you don't have to control all 10 men. Defending + controlling dmf is something I personally haven't been able to do in PES because teammate AI was pretty terrible. Now, they anticipate and read the game so much better. My players are switched on without me needing to have any real input, so I can use the DMf to my liking.

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk

[iaxy]

Re: The mysterious art of defending

Spent a few more hours with the game last night.

Started League with two different teams - Watford (low skill) and Arsenal (higher skill) with Option File downloaded from Pes Universe.

Started on Top Player, Assist 1, 15 minutes.

First of all League is much tougher than a standalone quick match.

I lost my opening 3 games with each team. There was not even a contest. I was outshot, outtackled, outplayed by the CPU in every single aspect. Some games I lost 1-0, some I lost 3-2 and one I lost 10-1 (against Chelsea). Arguably I was doing a lot of tactics experiments during the Chelsea game (with a really high defensive line), but the CPU's (no look) lofted through balls and pin point passes to the wingers were just farcical to be honest.

I don't mind losing games when I play sloppy. In fact I like the challenge because it causes it me to improve. But losing when you play good positional football, you close the CPU down, clog the passing lanes and that has zero effect (unless the CPU "decided" to make a mistake) is plain frustrating.

I then tried a few games on Professional and the CPU played plain dumb. Easily dispossessed, allowing me to waltz through its defenders, allowing miles of space, obsessed to allow me to catch it up when one on one with my keeper. I was winning 4-0, 5-0 but it felt cheap and silly. Equally not fun.

I can't see this game having a long term appeal. It is marred by the same legacy issues it always had, which I doubt an update can fix. Huge spaces in midfield, a really poor counter attack logic where your teammates jog leisurely (or stay back altogether) instead of rushing forward and (back on topic) an absolutely illogical defending experience where you feel a total lack of control or ability to constrain the CPU.

Yes, the super cancel approach helps just a tad, but it just mask issues which are deeply rooted in the AI code and logic. Lipstick on a pig.

I don't play online so it's hard to judge if it will be better against another human.

Yes, it has moments of magic and it looks absolutely stunning visually (The Emirates is a joy to play in). Player models look so good and passing / shooting looks and feels so real life.

But overall this is not working for me. I play football for both 5 and 11 a side teams, I am both a student and a fan of the game. I appreciate pretty football and scrappy football in equal amounts. But this is just a poor representation of the sport from an AI and control perspective. Ultimately it is frustrating and a video game should not be frustrating. I so wanted to love the game and whilst FIFA has its issues too, it is a much, much more accurate representation of the sport and much more intuitive / logical to control.

My ultimate wish list would be a game which marries FIFA AI / gameplay / control with PES visuals / player models / ball physics. Alas, wishful thinking.

[ImmortalMindz]

Re: The mysterious art of defending

Basically you don't have to control all 10 men. Defending + controlling dmf is something I personally haven't been able to do in PES because teammate AI was pretty terrible. Now, they anticipate and read the game so much better. My players are switched on without me needing to have any real input, so I can use the DMf to my liking.

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk

We must be playing a different game because I'm seeing terrible defensive AI from my teammates and I feel like I'm playing past FIFAs in that I keep having to control my midfielders or fullbacks to get them to behave properly.

And I know it's not just me because I've seen plenty of videos posted elsewhere showing how bad the AI is, showing the old PES legacy issue of players not making smart footballing decisions but instead are bound by their formation or tactical instructions even when it doesn't make sense.

For example, I regularly watch as my wingers track back only so far but will just stop, even if there's an attacker with the ball near him. I'm also watching as my defenders are so obsessed with dropping deep and maintaining their line that they'll ignore threats as they approach.

But that's not really what I meant. FIFA's legacy defending is so automated and a relic of the past that comparing defending in PES to that system does not shine well on PES for me. To each's own I guess but I much prefer a system in which you can't just rely on your teammates to do the work for you.

[ImmortalMindz]

Re: The mysterious art of defending

My ultimate wish list would be a game which marries FIFA AI / gameplay / control with PES visuals / player models.
Until then I will wait for FIFA 19 to come out and will be selling my PES 19.

I completely agree with your entire post but especially the above quote. I think about this all the time (okay, maybe not all the time) and couldn't agree more. Especially after playing the FIFA beta, PES's AI now pales in comparison while I've always found PES's controls to be just about the most unintuitive and frustrating control scheme ever.

But yeah, it's going to be super hard playing FIFA 19 after this just because of how much I prefer PES's player models. And the passing and ball physics too.

[Matt10]

Re: The mysterious art of defending

We must be playing a different game because I'm seeing terrible defensive AI from my teammates and I feel like I'm playing past FIFAs in that I keep having to control my midfielders or fullbacks to get them to behave properly.

And I know it's not just me because I've seen plenty of videos posted elsewhere showing how bad the AI is, showing the old PES legacy issue of players not making smart footballing decisions but instead are bound by their formation or tactical instructions even when it doesn't make sense.

For example, I regularly watch as my wingers track back only so far but will just stop, even if there's an attacker with the ball near him. I'm also watching as my defenders are so obsessed with dropping deep and maintaining their line that they'll ignore threats as they approach.

But that's not really what I meant. FIFA's legacy defending is so automated and a relic of the past that comparing defending in PES to that system does not shine well on PES for me. To each's own I guess but I much prefer a system in which you can't just rely on your teammates to do the work for you.

I think it just depends on your preference to defend. I've always loved controlling my DMF, in both FIFA and PES, then letting my teammates do their part. What has changed is how much I have had to use the teammate pressure button. This year's PES, not as much. At least not through my experience.

I regularly stream my games as well. Here is the most recent, which shows how I play. As you can see multiple times, my teammate AI anticipated and reacted fairly well. I made a couple (a lot) of mistakes in the stream unfortunately, in particular against Marseille, but not really any programming issues that I could blame.

<iframe width="750" height="422" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/o43eMCvioDs" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[iaxy]

Re: The mysterious art of defending

I think it just depends on your preference to defend. I've always loved controlling my DMF, in both FIFA and PES, then letting my teammates do their part. What has changed is how much I have had to use the teammate pressure button. This year's PES, not as much. At least not through my experience.

I regularly stream my games as well. Here is the most recent, which shows how I play. As you can see multiple times, my teammate AI anticipated and reacted fairly well. I made a couple (a lot) of mistakes in the stream unfortunately, in particular against Marseille, but not really any programming issues that I could blame.

<iframe width="750" height="422" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/o43eMCvioDs" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

I just played two games with your system, i.e. taking possession of a DMF and basically play the position, rather than putting pressure on the CPU. I agree with you in that my AI teammates generally stayed in decent positions and tracked the CPU well, but this proved my concern even more clearly. You are just waiting for the CPU to make a mistake. You basically have no control on the game. You are basically a bystander, hoping that the CPU will play a bad pass.
Ultimately where is the fun in this?

To me playing as a defender you should be able to put pressure on a player, force them to make a bad pass, force them to panic, force them out of bounds. In PES this is inexistent. The CPU does not recognise the pressure logic. CPU players will still make (often blind) 30 yard pin point passes and then to counterbalance the CPU will play a bad pass in a really simple attacking situation, justo to even things out.

It's just a flawed logic.

Playing this way, you are consciously making a decision NOT to control the defender nearest to the ball because, essentially you know that you will lose this one on one battle every time due to the way the CPU is encoded to behave.

As a defender you should be able to influence the game. After all, this is why we play video games. If you are going to rely on CPU making a mistake, then we might as well watch football on tv...

[KG]

Re: The mysterious art of defending

I just played two games with your system, i.e. taking possession of a DMF and basically play the position, rather than putting pressure on the CPU. I agree with you in that my AI teammates generally stayed in decent positions and tracked the CPU well, but this proved my concern even more clearly. You are just waiting for the CPU to make a mistake. You basically have no control on the game. You are basically a bystander, hoping that the CPU will play a bad pass.
Ultimately where is the fun in this?

To me playing as a defender you should be able to put pressure on a player, force them to make a bad pass, force them to panic, force them out of bounds. In PES this is inexistent. The CPU does not recognise the pressure logic. CPU players will still make (often blind) 30 yard pin point passes and then to counterbalance the CPU will play a bad pass in a really simple attacking situation, justo to even things out.

It's just a flawed logic.

Playing this way, you are consciously making a decision NOT to control the defender nearest to the ball because, essentially you know that you will lose this one on one battle every time due to the way the CPU is encoded to behave.

As a defender you should be able to influence the game. After all, this is why we play video games. If you are going to rely on CPU making a mistake, then we might as well watch football on tv...

It's just a different way to defend. When I play online I change my teammate control to aggressive and let them chase the ball while I play the passing lanes. My CPU defenders win plenty of challenges and it allows me to also concentrate on any off-the-ball runs going on too. It helps me keep my shape too. I've played enough FIFA over the years to get really tired of having to defend with all 10 outfield players. I'm not saying PES does it perfect but I'm assuming Matt defends that way because it's effective for him and he likes it.

[iaxy]

Re: The mysterious art of defending

It's just a different way to defend. When I play online I change my teammate control to aggressive and let them chase the ball while I play the passing lanes. My CPU defenders win plenty of challenges and it allows me to also concentrate on any off-the-ball runs going on too. It helps me keep my shape too. I've played enough FIFA over the years to get really tired of having to defend with all 10 outfield players. I'm not saying PES does it perfect but I'm assuming Matt defends that way because it's effective for him and he likes it.

Don't get me wrong - everyone is free to play whichever way they want. And kudos to players like Matt who have discovered this method.

Clearly it's a method which works, because I can see that the my AI controlled players do a good job of tracking.

All I am saying is that for me it is counterintuitive to purposely and consciously remove myself from the action and rely on the CPU to make a mistake. It's equivalent to just watch a game played by other players until the moment the CPU "decides" to make a mistake and then you take over with possession and control.

[ImmortalMindz]

Re: The mysterious art of defending

It's just a different way to defend. When I play online I change my teammate control to aggressive and let them chase the ball while I play the passing lanes. My CPU defenders win plenty of challenges and it allows me to also concentrate on any off-the-ball runs going on too. It helps me keep my shape too. I've played enough FIFA over the years to get really tired of having to defend with all 10 outfield players. I'm not saying PES does it perfect but I'm assuming Matt defends that way because it's effective for him and he likes it.

This is really interesting to me because it was the most popular and most controversial topic in the FIFA beta forums. One of the biggest improvements this year to FIFA is the defensive AI - it's so much better than before and you can actually depend on your teammates to help and position themselves like they should. I loved it.

But with the rise in popularity of E-Sports and competitive gaming, loads of people were pissed about this and hated that the AI defending was so much better.

Personally I prefer a less automated system than what's in PES and I think FIFA has a better balance with its default defending system, but for me the highest priority is fun and realistically-balanced gameplay. So while I don't really get the fun and challenge of playing Matt's style, as long as it's single player then to each's own I say.

But I do think iaxy makes a very valid point in that in PES this year it's too difficult to influence play when you're defending and it can often feel like you're waiting on the CPU to make a mistake (which is usually a stupid low cross but that's another discussion ). It's not too bad on Professional but on Top Player and especially Superstar it's pretty frustrating.

And I think people are starting to catch on to this as more people are mentioning how few tackles they're actually having against the CPU. I looked at Matt's end-match game stats and saw that even with his style of defending, he was still only getting 5 or less tackles per game but averaging like 30 interceptions.

I get that match stats don't tell the full story, but I do think it indicates how difficult it is to get close to the CPU attackers, that the marking is too loose, and that it's too much about waiting for them to make that errant pass.

[KG]

Re: The mysterious art of defending

Don't get me wrong - everyone is free to play whichever way they want. And Kudos to players like Matt who have discovered this method.

Clearly this work, because I can see that the my AI controlled players do a good job of tracking.

All I am saying is that for me it is counterintuitive to purposely and consciously remove yourself form the action and rely on the CPU to make a mistake.

I hear ya'. I like it because it reminds of playing IRL and/or Club/BAL. It makes me feel like I have a defensive assignment that I have to carry out. Plus it's the only way my team will ever put in bad challenges to actually get a card. Every year in FIFA CM I probably accumulate less than 10 yellows and maybe a red. This way of defending sees my CPU teammates put in the occassional poor challenge.

This is really interesting to me because it was the most popular and most controversial topic in the FIFA beta forums. One of the biggest improvements this year to FIFA is the defensive AI - it's so much better than before and you can actually depend on your teammates to help and position themselves like they should. I loved it.

But with the rise in popularity of E-Sports and competitive gaming, loads of people were pissed about this and hated that the AI defending was so much better.

Personally I prefer a less automated system than what's in PES and I think FIFA has a better balance with its default defending system, but for me the highest priority is fun and realistically-balanced gameplay. So while I don't really get the fun and challenge of playing Matt's style, as long as it's single player then to each's own I say.

But I do think iaxy makes a very valid point in that in PES this year it's too difficult to influence play when you're defending and it can often feel like you're waiting on the CPU to make a mistake (which is usually a stupid low cross but that's another discussion ). It's not too bad on Professional but on Top Player and especially Superstar it's pretty frustrating.

And I think people are starting to catch on to this as more people are mentioning how few tackles they're actually having against the CPU. I looked at Matt's end-match game stats and saw that even with his style of defending, he was still only getting 5 or less tackles per game but averaging like 30 interceptions.

I get that match stats don't tell the full story, but I do think it indicates how difficult it is to get close to the CPU attackers, that the marking is too loose, and that it's too much about waiting for them to make that errant pass.

In the FIFA beta, did your teammates actually try to dispossess the attacker? For years that was my biggest beef with FIFA's 2nd defender pressure button. THey'd get close but never actually put in the challenge.

Yeah, I def agree that the stats are skewed. I checked Chelsea's last three matches and all three were ~2:1 tackles to interceptions. I think that's a testament to better defender awareness when it comes to passing lanes + better body position required by passers + Konami purposefully programming in passing error to get the completion % (a HUGE PES problem over the years).

Def agree on the eSports crowd influencing ALL sports games in bad way. I like playing online too but I'd wish they'd strive for realism first and make people adapt. If FIFA went for full SIM they'd still sell like crazy. The licenses and online modes are too strong not too.

[ImmortalMindz]

Re: The mysterious art of defending

In the FIFA beta, did your teammates actually try to dispossess the attacker? For years that was my biggest beef with FIFA's 2nd defender pressure button. THey'd get close but never actually put in the challenge.

Yeah, I def agree that the stats are skewed. I checked Chelsea's last three matches and all three were ~2:1 tackles to interceptions. I think that's a testament to better defender awareness when it comes to passing lanes + better body position required by passers + Konami purposefully programming in passing error to get the completion % (a HUGE PES problem over the years).

Def agree on the eSports crowd influencing ALL sports games in bad way. I like playing online too but I'd wish they'd strive for realism first and make people adapt. If FIFA went for full SIM they'd still sell like crazy. The licenses and online modes are too strong not too.

To be honest, my memory is a little hazy. It's definitely not like PES where you can rely on the 2nd man pressure to always go for the tackle, but it certainly seemed upgraded from before. If anything, it was opposite to PES - a little too easy to defend against the CPU.

But because this was such a point of contention, this is one of those areas I'm curious how it will be in the final version. Lots of people argued that it lowered the skill gap. I tried to vocally push back, saying it increased the skill gap on the attacking side since creating chances was tougher.

Guess we'll see soon how EA responded.

[Matt10]

Re: The mysterious art of defending

Don't get me wrong - everyone is free to play whichever way they want. And kudos to players like Matt who have discovered this method.

Clearly it's a method which works, because I can see that the my AI controlled players do a good job of tracking.

All I am saying is that for me it is counterintuitive to purposely and consciously remove myself from the action and rely on the CPU to make a mistake. It's equivalent to just watch a game played by other players until the moment the CPU "decides" to make a mistake and then you take over with possession and control.

I think it is a tribute to how much better the teammate's defending is. We have complained for years how FIFA and PES teammate defending has been. Where you have to control all 10 players. Now that it's better, why is it a negative to only aim to control one player? I definitely do not feel like I am taken out of the game at all. If anything, I'm paying attention more to passing lanes and recovering. I still player switch if I absolutely need to - which happens a lot actually because Ron Vlaar is slow as can be, but has great anticipation. I like that I will be held accountable if I secondary pressure too early, or too late, and pull my players out of position. Last night's stream that happened 3x in a 5-2 loss against Heracles as AZ. I kept holding the pressure too long, and then manually moved players - then just got sucked out completely. Vlaar was all over the place, my newbie makeshift RB (never again) was well exposed.

Like KG said though, it's just another way to defend. It's not about waiting for the CPU to make a mistake either. It's letting them play. It's a welcome addition this year that they do make human-like mistakes, but that's not the only way to be rewarded in defending. A simple shift back to the keeper, a switching of the field, a long ball over the top. We talk about wanting variety for years, and less 100% adherence to tactics, now we've got it. The fact that we can play different ways is another tribute to how much improvement there is in this year's version.

[Matt10]

Re: The mysterious art of defending

This is really interesting to me because it was the most popular and most controversial topic in the FIFA beta forums. One of the biggest improvements this year to FIFA is the defensive AI - it's so much better than before and you can actually depend on your teammates to help and position themselves like they should. I loved it.

But with the rise in popularity of E-Sports and competitive gaming, loads of people were pissed about this and hated that the AI defending was so much better.

Personally I prefer a less automated system than what's in PES and I think FIFA has a better balance with its default defending system, but for me the highest priority is fun and realistically-balanced gameplay. So while I don't really get the fun and challenge of playing Matt's style, as long as it's single player then to each's own I say.

But I do think iaxy makes a very valid point in that in PES this year it's too difficult to influence play when you're defending and it can often feel like you're waiting on the CPU to make a mistake (which is usually a stupid low cross but that's another discussion ). It's not too bad on Professional but on Top Player and especially Superstar it's pretty frustrating.

And I think people are starting to catch on to this as more people are mentioning how few tackles they're actually having against the CPU. I looked at Matt's end-match game stats and saw that even with his style of defending, he was still only getting 5 or less tackles per game but averaging like 30 interceptions.

I get that match stats don't tell the full story, but I do think it indicates how difficult it is to get close to the CPU attackers, that the marking is too loose, and that it's too much about waiting for them to make that errant pass.

Regarding the tackling, I think it's simply a data entry error of what the game determines a tackle. A simple test would be to go and tackle the CPU and pause to view the stats.

I did this test yesterday, tackled the CPU multiple times on Regular difficulty, and it seemed that the only tackles that were determined were in 1v1 situations where I double tapped tackle and also sliding tackle. I didn't get to test for too long though, but will try to record it on higher difficulties to make sure there is no discrepancy.

[PAPERNUT]

Re: The mysterious art of defending

Regarding the tackling, I think it's simply a data entry error of what the game determines a tackle. A simple test would be to go and tackle the CPU and pause to view the stats.

I did this test yesterday, tackled the CPU multiple times on Regular difficulty, and it seemed that the only tackles that were determined were in 1v1 situations where I double tapped tackle and also sliding tackle. I didn't get to test for too long though, but will try to record it on higher difficulties to make sure there is no discrepancy.

Yep. This has been a bug since PES17.

One thing I love from 19 is the Offense tactic "Defense". Finally it is working to keep a DMF from running forward on attack. I want my enforcer in place at all times near my back line for support and nothing was more frustrating in both PES and FIFA of past seeing my DMF surge to goal every possession even though set to not do so.