The mysterious art of defending

[ImmortalMindz]

Re: The mysterious art of defending

Regarding the tackling, I think it's simply a data entry error of what the game determines a tackle. A simple test would be to go and tackle the CPU and pause to view the stats.

I did this test yesterday, tackled the CPU multiple times on Regular difficulty, and it seemed that the only tackles that were determined were in 1v1 situations where I double tapped tackle and also sliding tackle. I didn't get to test for too long though, but will try to record it on higher difficulties to make sure there is no discrepancy.

Even if there is a data error, it's very slight. I'm finishing games on Superstar against the CPU when I will win, keeping the CPU to 1 goal or less, finishing with around 30 interceptions and 2 tackles. Even if those stats are off, they aren't off by that much, and is still indicative of the greater issue.

Regardless of the stats, I've yet to experience for myself or see anyone else in gameplay videos be able to tackle the CPU consistently, especially on Top Player or above. There's simply way too much space afforded in the marking and CPU teams refuse to take you on in the dribble, which is why so many are complaining that the lower quality teams can and do play tiki taka in the final third.

Play on the higher difficulties and when you don't have possession it can feel like you're watching the CPU play a passing simulator instead of a balanced football game.

[Matt10]

Re: The mysterious art of defending

Even if there is a data error, it's very slight. I'm finishing games on Superstar against the CPU when I will win, keeping the CPU to 1 goal or less, finishing with around 30 interceptions and 2 tackles. Even if those stats are off, they aren't off by that much, and is still indicative of the greater issue.

Regardless of the stats, I've yet to experience for myself or see anyone else in gameplay videos be able to tackle the CPU consistently, especially on Top Player or above. There's simply way too much space afforded in the marking and CPU teams refuse to take you on in the dribble, which is why so many are complaining that the lower quality teams can and do play tiki taka in the final third.

Play on the higher difficulties and when you don't have possession it can feel like you're watching the CPU play a passing simulator instead of a balanced football game.

I'm not sure this makes sense. If the CPU is putting on a passing simulator, how can the value of 30 interceptions make sense? I just want to clarify if there is a bug in the interception value, or is that accurate?

Overall, I feel like there are plenty of moments in which the CPU makes bad passes, or sometimes the teammate AI is very well positioned, that they make those interceptions. I feel that the CPU is more human like compared to last year because there is much higher risk/reward for passing the ball forwards - as it should be.

I agree with you on the CPU not taking on players. I really wish they would as well. The only time I've seen this remotely close is when their player traits/styles take over. It would be really nice to have an outside mid (or back) take on a player on the wings. This game is so smooth, and it's a shame we don't get to see that.

[ImmortalMindz]

Re: The mysterious art of defending

I'm not sure this makes sense. If the CPU is putting on a passing simulator, how can the value of 30 interceptions make sense? I just want to clarify if there is a bug in the interception value, or is that accurate?

Overall, I feel like there are plenty of moments in which the CPU makes bad passes, or sometimes the teammate AI is very well positioned, that they make those interceptions. I feel that the CPU is more human like compared to last year because there is much higher risk/reward for passing the ball forwards - as it should be.

I agree with you on the CPU not taking on players. I really wish they would as well. The only time I've seen this remotely close is when their player traits/styles take over. It would be really nice to have an outside mid (or back) take on a player on the wings. This game is so smooth, and it's a shame we don't get to see that.

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that the CPU is perfect with its passing. No, I'm quite pleased with the amount of error. If anything, I think you could make the case there's a tad too much, since I'm seeing elite teams with ~80% pass acc probably too often. But that's better than the opposite.

No, I meant playing against the CPU can feel like it's a passing simulator in that passing is all they do, and because there's so much space and not enough dribbles and tackles, it can feel like you're just moving players around while waiting for that errant pass to happen.

What's frustrating is how this reminds me of FIFA from several years ago, when the CPU on the higher difficulties can be right on top of you as you receive a pass, but when defending against the CPU it can feel like you're sprinting around trying to influence play but you can never quite reach them in time.

Matt, I would imagine this is less evident in your play style since you tend to not apply pressure yourself on the CPU, but for those of us who like a more hands-on approach to defending, it can feel like you're chasing ghosts a bit too much. And if you're playing on Superstar, it feels entirely unfair because the CPU can be right in your face when you receive the ball but it feels like we play a different game defensively than the CPU.

There's an easy way to test this: while it feels balanced on Professional, playing on Top Player or Superstar, count the number of touches you and the CPU are able to make typically before a defender is in your face. The CPU typically has the time for three or even four touches, whereas we typically have time for one, maybe two.

[Matt10]

Re: The mysterious art of defending

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that the CPU is perfect with its passing. No, I'm quite pleased with the amount of error. If anything, I think you could make the case there's a tad too much, since I'm seeing elite teams with ~80% pass acc probably too often. But that's better than the opposite.

No, I meant playing against the CPU can feel like it's a passing simulator in that passing is all they do, and because there's so much space and not enough dribbles and tackles, it can feel like you're just moving players around while waiting for that errant pass to happen.

What's frustrating is how this reminds me of FIFA from several years ago, when the CPU on the higher difficulties can be right on top of you as you receive a pass, but when defending against the CPU it can feel like you're sprinting around trying to influence play but you can never quite reach them in time.

Matt, I would imagine this is less evident in your play style since you tend to not apply pressure yourself on the CPU, but for those of us who like a more hands-on approach to defending, it can feel like you're chasing ghosts a bit too much. And if you're playing on Superstar, it feels entirely unfair because the CPU can be right in your face when you receive the ball but it feels like we play a different game defensively than the CPU.

There's an easy way to test this: while it feels balanced on Professional, playing on Top Player or Superstar, count the number of touches you and the CPU are able to make typically before a defender is in your face. The CPU typically has the time for three or even four touches, whereas we typically have time for one, maybe two.

Ah, okay - that makes sense. I see what you're saying now. I agree, it does feel like everything is a pass sequence. PES sure loves those slow motion passes on replays don't they? I would love to see a CB break through the defense, like my beloved Fulham players tend to do (Kalas last season, Odoi this season), then drop it off to a forward.

Regarding how I defend, the way I see it, the teammate positioning is already on point to me. I don't feel like I need to even move them that much. So, if they are already in position, there's no need to interfere. I also place automatic slide tackling so they do make decisions on their own. This has bailed me out several times when I do choose to control one of them (if my DMF/CMF is too far up field for example), I know that if the CPU sends the ball in - my teammate is there to cover and tackle.

When I lost to Heracles 5-2 the other day, it was because my teammate AI let me down on the back post runs. My starting RB was gassed, so I had a makeshift LB play there. Bad bad choice. He was exposed all match long, and I'd say about 3 of the goals cored were because of his position and lack of anticipation. When I controlled him, I'd make it worse! lol.

[iaxy]

Re: The mysterious art of defending

Out of curiosity what level of assistance are you guys playing with?

I am constantly changing between 0 and 1. I love the sloppiness and unpredictability of 0 but way too often the simple, straightforward passes are misplaced, when they shouldn't be. Crossing accuracy also suffers way too much on 0. I am yet to score a goal from a cross on that setting.

On the other hand 1 feels too scripted - the trajectory of passes feel and look all the same and the game feels very repetitive, as if passes all follow the same rail.

Also on 0 you can play the ball a bit forward but on 1 it's always to feet, which when countering is a bit annoying as it slows down the attack.