Sabermetrics & Future MLB: The Show

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  • KBLover
    Hall Of Fame
    • Aug 2009
    • 12172

    #31
    Re: Sabermetrics & Future MLB: The Show

    Originally posted by Bobhead
    I want to point out just for reference that we, as users, cannot calculate WAR based on the information provided in The Show. There is a great deal of information missing, from park factors to defensive evaluations.

    Defense is the hardest one for me because all we have is range factor.

    Park Factors barely exist unless they relate to dimensions - and I can always "borrow" irl MLB's.

    But defense...yeah...
    "Some people call it butterflies, but to him, it probably feels like pterodactyls in his stomach." --Plesac in MLB18

    Comment

    • Speedy
      #Ace
      • Apr 2008
      • 16143

      #32
      Re: Sabermetrics & Future MLB: The Show

      Originally posted by Bobhead
      I want to point out just for reference that we, as users, cannot calculate WAR based on the information provided in The Show. There is a great deal of information missing, from park factors to defensive evaluations.
      Why couldn't The Show calculate WAR?

      There are a finite number of results which can occur in the game, something I'm certain the devs can thus attribute a given metric for defensive numbers, FIP, etc. as well as any standardization necessary for park factors.
      Originally posted by Gibson88
      Anyone who asked for an ETA is not being Master of their Domain.
      It's hard though...especially when I got my neighbor playing their franchise across the street...maybe I will occupy myself with Glamore Magazine.

      Comment

      • HozAndMoose
        MVP
        • Mar 2013
        • 3614

        #33
        Re: Sabermetrics & Future MLB: The Show

        Originally posted by Speedy
        Why couldn't The Show calculate WAR?

        There are a finite number of results which can occur in the game, something I'm certain the devs can thus attribute a given metric for defensive numbers, (URC IS A MORON), etc. as well as any standardization necessary for park factors.
        It can eventually. I believe he was talking about us not being able to calculate it ourselves like someone said earlier.

        Comment

        • TheWarmWind
          MVP
          • Apr 2015
          • 2620

          #34
          Re: Sabermetrics & Future MLB: The Show

          This... has become a really awesome and informative thread.

          To this point I've usually scouted my players in franchise based on "feel". I've slowly incorporated some minor statistical scouting techniques, but for the most part it's done based on casual observations made during spring training/throughout the season. That's part of the reason why I was of the opinion that adding in sabermetrics shouldn't be a priority (especially over things like closing that darn roof during cold weather at the Rogers Center).

          Now I'm not saying that I've changed that opinion, but this thread has definitely swayed me. I'm learning lots of cool stuff I didn't know and while I may never use sabermetrics for my franchise, I have to admit it would be really cool to have it there to use if I wanted to. It's yet another aspect of my franchise I can really dive deep into and end up learning something really cool about real life baseball in the process.

          Lets keep this thread going, I'm eager to learn more.

          Comment

          • Speedy
            #Ace
            • Apr 2008
            • 16143

            #35
            Re: Sabermetrics & Future MLB: The Show

            Originally posted by TheWarmWind
            Now I'm not saying that I've changed that opinion, but this thread has definitely swayed me. I'm learning lots of cool stuff I didn't know and while I may never use sabermetrics for my franchise, I have to admit it would be really cool to have it there to use if I wanted to. It's yet another aspect of my franchise I can really dive deep into and end up learning something really cool about real life baseball in the process.

            Lets keep this thread going, I'm eager to learn more.
            I believe this is the impact this game can have on users...whether they're into Sabermetrics or not. If it's incorporated in a way that users can SEE that their favorite (aging) player which has an 84 OVR has only a 0.4 WAR thru July while the 77 OVR prospect player has a 3.5 WAR in the minors should warrant a call up. This type of situation would really prove the value of Sabermetrics...then again, users could also rely on "old-school" tactics and see a player's value and make judgment calls from there.

            I personally want to learn more about Sabermetrics because it's BASEBALL! I love baseball and I always want to know more about it...if I can see how a given stat can sway or vary depending on performance would really show me which stats I should watch.

            As I mentioned about Andrelton...if he has a .550 OPS but then again, he has 20 DRS (defensive runs saved) and a hugely positive UZR (defensive zone rating) and WAR, it would make me reconsider benching him because his defense is helping the team and thus making him a positive player.
            Last edited by Speedy; 08-09-2015, 12:55 PM.
            Originally posted by Gibson88
            Anyone who asked for an ETA is not being Master of their Domain.
            It's hard though...especially when I got my neighbor playing their franchise across the street...maybe I will occupy myself with Glamore Magazine.

            Comment

            • bigd51
              Aqua?!
              • Sep 2014
              • 624

              #36
              Re: Sabermetrics & Future MLB: The Show

              Originally posted by Speedy
              I believe this is the impact this game can have on users...whether they're into Sabermetrics or not. If it's incorporated in a way that users can SEE that their favorite (aging) player which has an 84 OVR has only a 0.4 WAR thru July while the 77 OVR prospect player has a 3.5 WAR in the minors should warrant a call up. This type of situation would really prove the value of Sabermetrics...then again, users could also rely on "old-school" tactics and see a player's value and make judgment calls from there.

              I personally want to learn more about Sabermetrics because it's BASEBALL! I love baseball and I always want to know more about it...if I can see how a given stat can sway or vary depending on performance would really show me which stats I should watch.

              As I mentioned about Andrelton...if he has a .550 OPS but then again, he has 20 DRS (defensive runs saved) and a hugely positive UZR (defensive zone rating) and WAR, it would make me reconsider benching him because his defense is helping the team and thus making him a positive player.
              These are some reasons why I would like to see the sabermetrics side be implemented somehow into the game, despite knowing very little about sabermetrics myself.

              I think it would be a nice shakeup to have the option of turning off the 'overall' system, so to speak, and use stats and such to make decisions like from what I hear is done with OOTP. There's a toggle for Options already; Beginner and Experienced. I'm sure there's a way they could incorporate it in there somehow as an 'experienced' option so people can choose which way they would prefer to play.

              Now that people are generating interest in the subject, it'd be interesting to see what the devs would say about the possibility of it in the near future.

              Comment

              • tessl
                All Star
                • Apr 2007
                • 5685

                #37
                Re: Sabermetrics & Future MLB: The Show

                Originally posted by dalger21
                While some sabrmetric stats such as WAR is probably a good thing for "The Show", count me one of those that doesn't necessarily need sabrmetric stats. But then again, I'm down for anything that will make the game better.
                When Jason Heyward was traded for Shelby Miller I saw a discussion regarding Heyward's WAR.

                For a 3 year period during Musial's prime he had a lower WAR than Heyward. Why? Because Heyward got to a few more balls in the outfield than Musial and WAR assigns a contrived formula for valuing defense. Only Sabermetrics adherents would assert Heyward was a better ballplayer than Musial.

                Count me as not a fan of Sabermetrics.

                Comment

                • p00p1
                  Pro
                  • Aug 2002
                  • 987

                  #38
                  Re: Sabermetrics & Future MLB: The Show

                  Originally posted by tessl
                  When Jason Heyward was traded for Shelby Miller I saw a discussion regarding Heyward's WAR.

                  For a 3 year period during Musial's prime he had a lower WAR than Heyward. Why? Because Heyward got to a few more balls in the outfield than Musial and WAR assigns a contrived formula for valuing defense. Only Sabermetrics adherents would assert Heyward was a better ballplayer than Musial.

                  Count me as not a fan of Sabermetrics.
                  Jason Heyward's WAR wasn't higher than Musial, that's easy to look up. At least not until Musial was in his mid 30s.

                  http://www.baseball-reference.com/pl...eywaja01.shtml
                  http://www.baseball-reference.com/pl...usiast01.shtml

                  Comment

                  • sydrogerdavid
                    MVP
                    • May 2009
                    • 3109

                    #39
                    Re: Sabermetrics & Future MLB: The Show

                    Stats and advanced stats is one area that NBA 2K does a better job than The Show in. I'd be very happy if The Show would add a description as to what each Sabermetric means.

                    Also, it would be cool if they could add bench mark numbers for all of the statistics in descriptions. Like .300 is excellent for batting average and .500 for slugging. I would learn so much from just a description and benchmark numbers.

                    Comment

                    • FSanchez12
                      Rookie
                      • Jun 2007
                      • 469

                      #40
                      Re: Sabermetrics & Future MLB: The Show

                      I remember 2K had it a couple years ago, but they really focused on WPA and other team related sabremetrics rather than WAR and others. I think having something that would calculate that statistic in a video game would be interesting to say the least.

                      I like to think about it this way, you could have player A who is having a career year, and you make a deadline deal for him based on his sabremetric value. Unless you're playing straight sim, if you can't hit worth jack with him it doesn't matter what his WAR is it's not going to predict success under your control.

                      Comment

                      • tessl
                        All Star
                        • Apr 2007
                        • 5685

                        #41
                        Re: Sabermetrics & Future MLB: The Show

                        Originally posted by p00p1
                        Jason Heyward's WAR wasn't higher than Musial, that's easy to look up. At least not until Musial was in his mid 30s.

                        http://www.baseball-reference.com/pl...eywaja01.shtml
                        http://www.baseball-reference.com/pl...usiast01.shtml
                        Not for his career but for several very good individual years Musial had a lower WAR than some Heyward years which were nowhere near as good.

                        Heyward 2014 - 11 hr 58 rbi 155 hits .271 avg 6.2 WAR
                        Musial 1955 - 33hr 108 rbi 179 hits .319 avg 6.1 WAR
                        Musial 1956 - 27hr 109 rbi 184 hits .310 avg 5.5 WAR
                        Musial 1957 - 29hr 102 rbi 176 hits .351 avg 6.1 WAR

                        Sabermetrics assigns a contrived value to defense which causes goofy stuff regarding WAR.

                        WAR adherents focus on the obscure to the exclusion of the obvious.

                        Comment

                        • bigd51
                          Aqua?!
                          • Sep 2014
                          • 624

                          #42
                          Re: Sabermetrics & Future MLB: The Show

                          Originally posted by tessl
                          Not for his career but for several very good individual years Musial had a lower WAR than some Heyward years which were nowhere near as good.

                          Heyward 2014 - 11 hr 58 rbi 155 hits .271 avg 6.2 WAR
                          Musial 1955 - 33hr 108 rbi 179 hits .319 avg 6.1 WAR
                          Musial 1956 - 27hr 109 rbi 184 hits .310 avg 5.5 WAR
                          Musial 1957 - 29hr 102 rbi 176 hits .351 avg 6.1 WAR

                          Sabermetrics assigns a contrived value to defense which causes goofy stuff regarding WAR.

                          WAR adherents focus on the obscure to the exclusion of the obvious.
                          Well, for one, it's 2 completely different era's of baseball we're talking about here. Parks were also different back then compared to now, so you have to factor that in along with the defensive stats, I can only assume. So there's going to be different variables to consider.

                          Two... I don't see an issue with adding defensive stats in with offensive stats for an average number. Kind of, because that's already exactly how The Show generates its' stats; they generate an 'overall' rating based on individual attributes. But mainly, because defensive can be just as important as offensive stats. Specifically with key positions like SS, 2B, C, and CF. Those are the guys that have the most ground to carry in the field, so D stats should account for a lot when evaluating certain positions like these.

                          Andrelton Simmons isn't the greatest hitter, but his value on D at the SS position is unmatched currently. Guy is simply too good on D to pass up. David Ortiz doesn't have to contribute on D to be a high caliber player. Likewise, Heyward doesn't have to contribute too much on offense due to his value on D. WAR, from my understanding, treats O and D on a more level playing field, and if that's the case, I see nothing wrong with that. That's how it should be, IMO.

                          Comment

                          • kehlis
                            Moderator
                            • Jul 2008
                            • 27738

                            #43
                            Re: Sabermetrics & Future MLB: The Show

                            If this thread is going to be about sabermetrics and not how it relates to the game consider it closed.

                            Only warning.

                            Comment

                            • bigd51
                              Aqua?!
                              • Sep 2014
                              • 624

                              #44
                              Re: Sabermetrics & Future MLB: The Show

                              Not to sound combative or insubordinate, but what wasn't on topic? It's totally about the game. We're discussing the pros and cons of sabermetrics being introduced into the game. Sometimes, opinions on sabermetrics IRL do matter when talking about how they would translate.

                              Comment

                              • Trent Booty
                                MVP
                                • Jan 2015
                                • 2572

                                #45
                                Re: Sabermetrics & Future MLB: The Show

                                Yeah I don't really get what's off topic, lol.

                                Sabremetrics have become such a big part of baseball, for so many people, it would be so awesome to see them in the game. I'd love to be able to compare Andrelton Simmons to Jose Reyes or something, to see who the better (more valuable) player is.

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