Reaction time and acceleration time

Collapse

Recommended Videos

Collapse
X
 
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts
  • Bobhead
    Pro
    • Mar 2011
    • 4926

    #1

    Reaction time and acceleration time

    For a few years now I've felt that fielders in MLB The Show react at superhuman speeds.... far quicker than fielders do in real life. The crux of the problem is that human reaction is a multi-layered and variable concept, while MLB The Show just lumps it all together into one number.

    Before I say anything, I'll define some terms. I am not talking about a fielder's ability to catch a ball hit directly to them (one that doesn't require them to move their legs). This thread is strictly about a fielder's ability to begin moving/running in response to a batted ball.

    I know statistical/scientific evidence is always appreciated here. Ideally I could just post a bunch of random videos of actual MLB fielders reacting to balls, and point to the timestamps. However, MLB's media and copyright policies mean that all we have is the small random sample of videos available on MLB's website. Maybe someone more internet-savvy than me can produce raw reaction data for MLB athletes, but I can't. So I'll try a different approach.

    I've timed it in the past, and in The Show, fielders tend to break (first movement in a direction) for balls at a range of about .3 to .6 seconds. Defined exactly, that is .3 to .6 seconds from the crack of the bat, until the fielder's first step hits the ground.

    Now it's true that human brains are capable at reacting to stimuli at a rate faster than that. A quick google search tells you that 100 to 200 milliseconds is all it takes for many subjects of reaction-tests. But that's sitting in a chair with your finger hovering over a button, or having your brain hooked up to scanners to monitor activity. In the former case, you are 100% focused on only one possible stimulus, and there's only one possible reaction to it. In the latter case, you don't even have to do anything.

    As the stimuli gets more complex, reaction speed drops dramatically. I thought a good comparison was driving, since it's non-reflexive and requires physical response. A driver's typical reaction time is .75 seconds. Your foot is only four inches from the brake pedal at all times, and already the time has doubled, compared to basic stimuli testing. Four inches. 750 Milliseconds.

    Neither of those tests come close to the act of reacting to a baseball. You are not waiting for a single stimulus, you are responding to one of many (the baseball can go in many directions and speeds). It's not enough to just mentally recognize a location or direction. You then have to process instructions sent to your muscles, your muscles have to respond to that signal, and then your body fights inertia and begins accelerating.

    Yes, drivers are not athletes. MLB players represent an elite selection of athletes, compared to other baseball players, and all those players are at a higher level of athleticism than the typical human being. It's both safe and reasonable to assume that MLB fielders, in turn, have slightly higher reaction speeds than the typical person.

    But given the information above, it's also safe and reasonable to assume that it is physically impossible for a first step to be made in anything less than 400 milliseconds.

    I hope this is something that is looked at going forward. These forums are (rightfully) littered with complaints about gap hits not falling in, line drives not making it to the outfield, etc... It's true that ball physics factors into that, and the physics should be improved. However, a correction to how fielders react would be a fairly simple, and tremendous boost to the overall realism of the game.
  • Blzer
    Resident film pundit
    • Mar 2004
    • 42515

    #2
    Re: Reaction time and acceleration time

    I'll go ahead and say that I agree, given that every year I have to reduce the Fielder Reaction slider to 0 (for both infield and outfield). There still have to be many more things SCEA will have to do to remedy the XBH's down the line issues.

    I thought this thread was going to be about individual attributes, though. A long, long time ago a former version of myself was suggesting a Total Control Fielding system for the MLB 2K series, and within there fielders had a "first step," "second step," and "third step" attribute. As great as the idea was, the problem would be actually measuring that for players. So I see how that idea is easy to nix.

    You have it pretty right on-the-nose, though. There are many things the gameplay still needs to address. I will also say there has to be something for accelerating/running backwards versus forwards or laterally. If they can differentiate the two, that would be very helpful.

    Bobhead, let's get a few more guys like us where we can collaborate and throw some wicked, in-depth suggestions to next year's developer-requested wishlist thread, if things aren't in place for '16 already.
    Samsung PN60F8500 PDP / Anthem MRX 720 / Klipsch RC-62 II / Klipsch RF-82 II (x2) / Insignia NS-B2111 (x2) / SVS PC13-Ultra / SVS SB-2000 / Sony MDR-7506 Professional / Audio-Technica ATH-R70x / Sony PS3 & PS4 / DirecTV HR44-500 / DarbeeVision DVP-5000 / Panamax M5400-PM / Elgato HD60

    Comment

    • tessl
      All Star
      • Apr 2007
      • 5683

      #3
      Re: Reaction time and acceleration time

      Maybe I'm misinterpreting what you are saying but you seem to be assuming that animated character on the screen has a brain, eyes and a nervous system. If programming ever gets that good I'll be scared.

      Comment

      • Blzer
        Resident film pundit
        • Mar 2004
        • 42515

        #4
        Re: Reaction time and acceleration time

        Originally posted by tessl
        Maybe I'm misinterpreting what you are saying but you seem to be assuming that animated character on the screen has a brain, eyes and a nervous system. If programming ever gets that good I'll be scared.
        Nope, it just has programming. Alongside programming, you can create convincingly realistic AI given the computer power of these systems. It's hard to create "imperfections" at times though, it seems. But everything is logic-based.
        Samsung PN60F8500 PDP / Anthem MRX 720 / Klipsch RC-62 II / Klipsch RF-82 II (x2) / Insignia NS-B2111 (x2) / SVS PC13-Ultra / SVS SB-2000 / Sony MDR-7506 Professional / Audio-Technica ATH-R70x / Sony PS3 & PS4 / DirecTV HR44-500 / DarbeeVision DVP-5000 / Panamax M5400-PM / Elgato HD60

        Comment

        • nemesis04
          RIP Ty My Buddy
          • Feb 2004
          • 13530

          #5
          Re: Reaction time and acceleration time

          It will be interesting to see how the introduction of the Human IK element will improve this aspect of the game. In theory it should address some of it.
          “The saddest part of life is when someone who gave you your best memories becomes a memory”

          Comment

          • Bobhead
            Pro
            • Mar 2011
            • 4926

            #6
            Re: Reaction time and acceleration time

            Originally posted by nemesis04
            It will be interesting to see how the introduction of the Human IK element will improve this aspect of the game. In theory it should address some of it.
            That's my hope as well. Eyeballing it, I haven't seen much evidence of players reacting to balls hit right towards them better than they should. The right amount of line drives seem to be caught. However, when any amount of movement is required for a play, that is when this reaction issue really presents itself .

            That seems to play right into what Human IK can do.

            Comment

            • nemesis04
              RIP Ty My Buddy
              • Feb 2004
              • 13530

              #7
              Re: Reaction time and acceleration time

              Originally posted by Bobhead
              That's my hope as well. Eyeballing it, I haven't seen much evidence of players reacting to balls hit right towards them better than they should. The right amount of line drives seem to be caught. However, when any amount of movement is required for a play, that is when this reaction issue really presents itself .

              That seems to play right into what Human IK can do.
              I would not put much into the trailer to look for huge differences. I am sure we will get a blog or twitch video going over in detail how specifically it will impact the game.
              “The saddest part of life is when someone who gave you your best memories becomes a memory”

              Comment

              • Speedy
                #Ace
                • Apr 2008
                • 16143

                #8
                Re: Reaction time and acceleration time

                Originally posted by nemesis04
                It will be interesting to see how the introduction of the Human IK element will improve this aspect of the game. In theory it should address some of it.
                Human IK element?

                Is this the same thing where they said certain players on the base paths will run at different speeds?

                EDIT: Watched Ramone talk thru the trailer; maybe this is much bigger than the 2 seconds he mentioned it being.
                Last edited by Speedy; 12-31-2015, 01:55 PM.
                Originally posted by Gibson88
                Anyone who asked for an ETA is not being Master of their Domain.
                It's hard though...especially when I got my neighbor playing their franchise across the street...maybe I will occupy myself with Glamore Magazine.

                Comment

                • tnixen
                  MVP
                  • Oct 2011
                  • 3184

                  #9
                  Re: Reaction time and acceleration time

                  Originally posted by Speedy
                  Human IK element?

                  Is this the same thing where they said certain players on the base paths will run at different speeds?

                  EDIT: Watched Ramone talk thru the trailer; maybe this is much bigger than the 2 seconds he mentioned it being.
                  I think Human IK will basically allow the player models to move and react much more human like and less robotic looking

                  That's what I hope anyway.

                  Comment

                  • bcruise
                    Hall Of Fame
                    • Mar 2004
                    • 23274

                    #10
                    Re: Reaction time and acceleration time

                    Interesting discussion. I'd suggest you guys watch some of the Statcast videos from 2015. You might be surprised at some of their first-step readings.

                    <iframe src='http://m.mlb.com/shared/video/embed/embed.html?content_id=527762883&topic_id=73955164& width=400&height=224&property=mlb' width='400' height='224' frameborder='0'>Your browser does not support iframes.</iframe>

                    There's several defensive plays scattered throughout this video, most of them by Kevin Kiermaier. All but one read as a faster first step than .6. One is .3.

                    This page is probably the entire collection of statcasts from the whole season, and there's bound to be plenty more examples like this. I haven't gone through them yet but I do plan on checking them out. It's pretty amazing.

                    Coverage includes audio and video clips, interviews, statistics, schedules and exclusive stories.

                    Comment

                    • Jr.
                      Playgirl Coverboy
                      • Feb 2003
                      • 19171

                      #11
                      Re: Reaction time and acceleration time

                      Originally posted by Speedy
                      Human IK element?

                      Is this the same thing where they said certain players on the base paths will run at different speeds?

                      EDIT: Watched Ramone talk thru the trailer; maybe this is much bigger than the 2 seconds he mentioned it being.
                      No, Human IK is an animation system that was advertised to be in the game last year but was not implemented.
                      My favorite teams are better than your favorite teams

                      Watch me play video games

                      Comment

                      • nemesis04
                        RIP Ty My Buddy
                        • Feb 2004
                        • 13530

                        #12
                        Re: Reaction time and acceleration time

                        Originally posted by Speedy

                        EDIT: Watched Ramone talk thru the trailer; maybe this is much bigger than the 2 seconds he mentioned it being.
                        From my understanding it is a multi layered process so to me it will gradually evolve where it will get applied to more and more aspects where specific human interaction is involved. It will be interesting to see what they specifically have this technology applied to. We know foot planting to start.
                        “The saddest part of life is when someone who gave you your best memories becomes a memory”

                        Comment

                        • bcruise
                          Hall Of Fame
                          • Mar 2004
                          • 23274

                          #13
                          Re: Reaction time and acceleration time

                          Another one (that I'd personally rather not remember ):

                          <iframe src='http://m.mlb.com/shared/video/embed/embed.html?content_id=524273683&topic_id=73955164& width=400&height=224&property=mlb' width='400' height='224' frameborder='0'>Your browser does not support iframes.</iframe>

                          .28?!

                          Comment

                          • Russell_SCEA
                            SCEA Community Manager
                            • May 2005
                            • 4161

                            #14
                            Re: Reaction time and acceleration time

                            Originally posted by Bobhead
                            For a few years now I've felt that fielders in MLB The Show react at superhuman speeds.... far quicker than fielders do in real life. The crux of the problem is that human reaction is a multi-layered and variable concept, while MLB The Show just lumps it all together into one number.

                            Before I say anything, I'll define some terms. I am not talking about a fielder's ability to catch a ball hit directly to them (one that doesn't require them to move their legs). This thread is strictly about a fielder's ability to begin moving/running in response to a batted ball.

                            I know statistical/scientific evidence is always appreciated here. Ideally I could just post a bunch of random videos of actual MLB fielders reacting to balls, and point to the timestamps. However, MLB's media and copyright policies mean that all we have is the small random sample of videos available on MLB's website. Maybe someone more internet-savvy than me can produce raw reaction data for MLB athletes, but I can't. So I'll try a different approach.

                            I've timed it in the past, and in The Show, fielders tend to break (first movement in a direction) for balls at a range of about .3 to .6 seconds. Defined exactly, that is .3 to .6 seconds from the crack of the bat, until the fielder's first step hits the ground.

                            Now it's true that human brains are capable at reacting to stimuli at a rate faster than that. A quick google search tells you that 100 to 200 milliseconds is all it takes for many subjects of reaction-tests. But that's sitting in a chair with your finger hovering over a button, or having your brain hooked up to scanners to monitor activity. In the former case, you are 100% focused on only one possible stimulus, and there's only one possible reaction to it. In the latter case, you don't even have to do anything.

                            As the stimuli gets more complex, reaction speed drops dramatically. I thought a good comparison was driving, since it's non-reflexive and requires physical response. A driver's typical reaction time is .75 seconds. Your foot is only four inches from the brake pedal at all times, and already the time has doubled, compared to basic stimuli testing. Four inches. 750 Milliseconds.

                            Neither of those tests come close to the act of reacting to a baseball. You are not waiting for a single stimulus, you are responding to one of many (the baseball can go in many directions and speeds). It's not enough to just mentally recognize a location or direction. You then have to process instructions sent to your muscles, your muscles have to respond to that signal, and then your body fights inertia and begins accelerating.

                            Yes, drivers are not athletes. MLB players represent an elite selection of athletes, compared to other baseball players, and all those players are at a higher level of athleticism than the typical human being. It's both safe and reasonable to assume that MLB fielders, in turn, have slightly higher reaction speeds than the typical person.

                            But given the information above, it's also safe and reasonable to assume that it is physically impossible for a first step to be made in anything less than 400 milliseconds.

                            I hope this is something that is looked at going forward. These forums are (rightfully) littered with complaints about gap hits not falling in, line drives not making it to the outfield, etc... It's true that ball physics factors into that, and the physics should be improved. However, a correction to how fielders react would be a fairly simple, and tremendous boost to the overall realism of the game.
                            Our reaction time range is set to where it is on purpose for balancing reasons. It’s actually very close to being spot on as far as when a MLB corner infielder vs a middle infielder vs an OF react to a hit ball. We do a very good job of simulating reaction time. We've also proven that now, with better routes to the ball, the right amount of balls get down in the OF.

                            Comment

                            • tessl
                              All Star
                              • Apr 2007
                              • 5683

                              #15
                              Re: Reaction time and acceleration time

                              Originally posted by Blzer
                              Nope, it just has programming. Alongside programming, you can create convincingly realistic AI given the computer power of these systems. It's hard to create "imperfections" at times though, it seems. But everything is logic-based.
                              I agree and there is nothing wrong with trying to improve the game where possible but some things are just too "human" to program. For example there are a lot of things which impact how fast a fielder picks up a batted ball. Is the ball coming out of white shirts in the stands, day or night game, sunny or cloudy, is the sun setting, the trajectory of the ball - all of that impacts how fast the brain interprets what the eyes see and sets the body in motion.

                              If the complaint is lack of offense I suspect the pitcher no longer getting hit by batted balls - which almost always result in an out - will create more hits and more offense.

                              Comment

                              Working...