Small sample test: Reasons CPU doesn't bring in closer in save situations.

[oldtimey]

I compiled a log of the intances in my first-year franchise where the cpu manager brought in a pitcher other than the closer in a save situation. Now, I play cpu-v-cpu, so each game gave me 2 possibilities of this occurrence. You can do your own test, but in my franchise, i came up with 2 common threads when this happened:

1. The save situation became a save situation quickly.
There are times when a late rally in the bottom of the 8th and the top of the ninth will happen while there are a couple of setup/middle men warming in the pen. These guys are preparing to pitch in the current situation, with their team trailing. The cpu will only get the closer up when the current situation is a save situation. So if your rally ends abruptly, say with a DP, there's insufficient time for him to be warmed up properly. Hence, the cpu manager decides to "buy" an out, maybe 2, with a reliever who is already warm. When the closer is properly warm, he will bring him, most times after the first guy has gotten into trouble. The problem is that the AI does not anticipate the situation changing by getting the closer up while the potential lead run is on base. It waits until the save situation is current. Most times, this too late.

2. The closer is fatigued. If you have used him a couple of games in a row, then he is less than 100% rested. The cpu will attempt to rest him by bringing somebody in who is rested. Now, in my franchise, because of the way I set up my bullpens, this guy is usually the pitcher in the long relief spot. He is the 6th starter, but also really the 12th man on the staff. Because he is not used everyday, he is the one most rested. So, he's the guy the cpu goes to when trying to rest the closer. But he will have the closer warming up. If this guy gets into trouble, then the cpu will reluctantly bring the closer in, albeit with is pitching arm dragging the ground.

I am relatively new to The Show franchise with a lot of time on my hands. I hope this isn't redundant and helps in trying to have the most realistic experience in the game as possible.

[metal134]

Re: Small sample test: Reasons CPU doesn't bring in closer in save situations.

I think that what you described is also the result of an equally large problem, and that is closers not being used in NON save situations. The CPU seems slavish to the notion that, in order to bring a closer in, it has to be a save situation. So this leads to the issue you described. And if you look at the season stats, you will see closers having darn near the same amount of saves as innings pitched, which doesn't even count blown saves. In reality, closer need to be used twice as much as they do because in real life, and I'm just guesstimating here, but I'd say the average closer is only used in an actual save situation approximately 60% of the time, and when I'm feeling a little less lazy later on, I'll try to come up with an actual number instead of my made up statistic.

[bfindeisen]

Re: Small sample test: Reasons CPU doesn't bring in closer in save situations.

Great thread. This issue has drove me nuts for years.

[CanOfCornCobb]

Re: Small sample test: Reasons CPU doesn't bring in closer in save situations.

Do you think turning off the option to warm up pitchers can change this? Does this this only affect HUM contrlled players?

[oldtimey]

Re: Small sample test: Reasons CPU doesn't bring in closer in save situations.

Do you think turning off the option to warm up pitchers can change this? Does this this only affect HUM contrlled players?

Possibly. I never tried that because bullpen management (warming up pitchers, defining roles, etc.) is one of my favorite aspects of baseball. When the warmup rule was broken in OOTP, that was a gamebreaker for me. This is how the cpu handles the bullpen, so it seems logical that if the AI didn't have to worry about warming him up, the closer would always be ready.

But what the above poster mentioned is also a big problem: the cpu only using the closer in save situations. A team could be on a losing streak and you will not see the closer for a week. And if the losing streak is because of ineffective starting pitching, you need him to shoulder some the burden being placed on the rest of your bullpen. This an issue also. The cpu manager's use of the closer should expand to other high leverage situations and include the "just getting some work in" appearance in blowouts.

[metal134]

Re: Small sample test: Reasons CPU doesn't bring in closer in save situations.

And if the losing streak is because of ineffective starting pitching, you need him to shoulder some the burden being placed on the rest of your bullpen. This an issue also.

And not even just that. Even if the team is on a winning streak and winning big, the manager (in real life, that is) might bring the closer in in a non-save situation just to get him some work. In reality, pulling on the stats from last year, a top closer should have about 35-50% more innings pitched than saves

[duc748s]

Re: Small sample test: Reasons CPU doesn't bring in closer in save situations.

I think that what you described is also the result of an equally large problem, and that is closers not being used in NON save situations. The CPU seems slavish to the notion that, in order to bring a closer in, it has to be a save situation. So this leads to the issue you described. And if you look at the season stats, you will see closers having darn near the same amount of saves as innings pitched, which doesn't even count blown saves. In reality, closer need to be used twice as much as they do because in real life, and I'm just guesstimating here, but I'd say the average closer is only used in an actual save situation approximately 60% of the time, and when I'm feeling a little less lazy later on, I'll try to come up with an actual number instead of my made up statistic.

I was just thinking about this today as I put a few games in with my RttS pitcher. This issue of AI bullpen management is affecting RttS SP also. I am being left in when the SU should be coming in or the closer for 4 out saves. None of this happens until there is a save situation. This is also tied to the score of the game and if anyone gets on base. I think there is another thread about a similar issue but RttS focused. It might be related and affect all modes of play.

[oldtimey]

Re: Small sample test: Reasons CPU doesn't bring in closer in save situations.

Here is another reason that the cpu manager won't go immediately to the closer in an obvious save situation. This one is the most glitchy, and kind of lame:

3. There is already a pitcher warming up.
Here is an example. Brewers are at Cardinals. This game is played after an off day, so fatigue is not a factor. Martinez is mowing down the Crew thru 6, allowing 1 run. Going into the 7th, with the Redbirds leading 4-1, cpu Matheny warms up Walden as Martinez breezes through the inning. So, Martinez starts the 8th, as cpu Matheny has closer Rosenthal join Walden. Martinez gets through the 8th, but pitch count and fatigue factor in so cpu Matheny goes to the bullpen to start the top of the ninth. With the score still 4-1 (a save situation), he brings in Walden instead of Rosenthal. Each are 100% rested. Rosenthal has had plenty of time to warm up. The only reason has to be that Walden was warmed up first. The AI is not programmed to skip over Walden and bring in Rosenthal to react to the save situation. The result? Walden pitches to one batter, PH Cecchini, who promptly hits a home run to deep right center! Of course, now, cpu Matheny yanks Walden and brings in Rosenthal, who gets the three outs for the save. I hope one day the situatonal pitching strategy part of the AI gets a serious overhaul.

[Knight165]

Re: Small sample test: Reasons CPU doesn't bring in closer in save situations.

Very interesting...

Can you get me a compiled list that I can copy/paste to get to a dev?

I know it's in the thread here...but if oldtimey who is doing the testing and finding out the info would put it together....with some brief explanation.....I can get it to Luis.

M.K.
Knight165

[Knight165]

Re: Small sample test: Reasons CPU doesn't bring in closer in save situations.

Also....what happens if you leave that LR spot empty?
or if you don't assign a closer?

M.K.
Knight165

[Azamien]

Re: Small sample test: Reasons CPU doesn't bring in closer in save situations.

Do you think turning off the option to warm up pitchers can change this? Does this this only affect HUM contrlled players?

It seems to only affect the human's players. I turn off warm ups (I still warm up my pitchers realistically, I just don't want to have to throw the eight pitches when they enter a game) and the CPU still has the bullpen management issues.

I think the OP has it exactly right. The CPU isn't able to adjust situationally when it comes to their bullpen. The only time I see the issue is when there is a sudden game situation change, such as the CPU coming from behind in the bottom of the 8th or top of the 9th (depending on who the home team is). They already have pitchers warming up for the original situation, and don't seem to be able to change it, so you end up getting the three reliever dance in the next half inning.

[oldtimey]

Re: Small sample test: Reasons CPU doesn't bring in closer in save situations.

Also....what happens if you leave that LR spot empty?
or if you don't assign a closer?

M.K.
Knight165

Hello, Knight165. I have admired your work with this game the short time I have been an MLB The Show player. Just tell me how and what needs to be submitted and I will do my best to comply. My PS3 is not usually online, but can tether it if that is needed. I would love to help out.

Answering your question: When the LRP is left empty, the AI will use your MRP when your starter is knocked out early or has to leave a start early because of an injury. If you this spot is occupied by a pitcher who is "stretched out" with the same stamina as your 4th and 5th starters (in my scale, stamina ratings of at least 60-69), he will have the best chance of being effective, as the AI will treat him as he would treat the departed starter. This includes letting him bat for himself in non-DH games. If he is effective, the cpu (AI) will let him pitch into the 6th inning in DH games if he came in with 100% rest. In non-DH, games the cpu will let him bat in bunting situations and low leverage at-bats (no one on, 2 out, for example). If he wasn't in the LRP slot, the cpu would replace the early exiting starter with a MRP and he will pinch-hit everytime the pitcher's spot in the order comes up or attempt to double-switch. If this goes on from, say the third inning on, you will go thru your bullpen, with some asked to pitch multiple innings. This is with starter stamina sliders=4, reliever stamina=0 and manager hook=5. Putting together a few of these occurrences will fatten up the IP of your MRP. In my test using the common practice of a LH and a RH in the setup slots and LRP left empty, some MRP would compile 100+ innings in season sims, which is very 1970s-80s. Everybody would have more innings than appearances with the same slider settings explained above.

Using this method for setting up the bullpen, my contending teams very much look forward to September when the rosters expand. Then, you can max out all 3 LRP slots, plus utilize both SU slots. This cpu will use only the most rested pitchers first in the long relief slots when needed for early KOs and those long extra-inning affairs. But the entire pen gets a boost as you proceed on your stretch drive and prepare for the postseason. Now, with this bullpen setup, combined with the slider setting, you will see MRP pitch multiple innings in some situations. But you will also see the cpu parade reliever after reliever during close game situations in the 7th, 8th and 9th innings. So your MRP will have appearances where the might pitch 1.1, 1.2 or 2.0 innings. But the will also have appearances where they will be yanked without retiring a batter or with 0.1 or 0,2 innings pitched. During the course of the season, it balances out to pretty much to realistic innings pitched numbers of today's baseball. I have also tried slicing the reliever stamina rating on certain LH pitchers to try an replicate the popular LOOGY reliever. My usual minimum for a MRP/SU/CL is 28, max 35. I slashed some to 15 to get the cpu to allow them to face one batter. But that experiment didn't work because the cpu would not bring the LOOGY into the right matchup, LHP v LHB, all the time. But he would only face the one batter. Also, with the stamina rating so low, the cpu would not pitch him on consecutive days.

I hope this helps and gets into the proper hands to make a difference.

[Knight165]

Re: Small sample test: Reasons CPU doesn't bring in closer in save situations.

That's good info.
Thanks.

I think what I would need to send to Luis is...

-a problem situation(the closer not coming in....the LRP getting the S situation...etc) and what you
--What you see is precipitating that problem and/or exacerbating that problem.

If you just put it all in a post here or PM me....I'll just copy and paste it and send off the info.

Thanks!

M.K.
Knight165

[BrianU]

Re: Small sample test: Reasons CPU doesn't bring in closer in save situations.

I'm glad the bullpen management AI is getting so much attention from people n here. It's one of the biggest legacy issues that go overlooked because it won't sell many copies but it's a big deal to me too.

I think it's a bit tough to make the AI manage their roster in the game as in real life most sports games do not get this right. One thing I recommend you can do is this:

Switch controllers to the CPU team and manage their bullpen for them. as if you were the manager.

I want to beat the team at their full strength. So I will make sure all their relievers are warming up, they use platoon advantage properly, closers come in, etc. To me the CPU will NEVER get all of this right correctly nor should we expect that, we will always have issue with their questionable decisions. The best option is to give the user complete control and make it as easy as possible to do this. Lucky for us you can do it pretty easily just switched controllers in the pause screen and doing what you gotta do to make them play at full strength. It is a bit of a hassle and I would like the CPU to manage their team more effective but for the realest most challenging experience I think it is a necessary.

I believe they removed the issue where relievers in the bullpen could warm up 'too much' and be affected negatively, so always make sure the CPU has a lefty and a righty up and throwing and when the proper situation arises put them in the game and put another same-handed reliever in the bullpen to replace them. This ensures you are prepared for any game situation. It takes some real life baseball knowledge, you have to think what would a manager do in real life, when would he remove his starter, would he use a reliever for one batter or leave him in for the next inning too? Let his closer get 4-5 out save in this situation?

The only thing I wish is that we could disable CPU substitutions entirely so they don't override my decisions for them.

[oldtimey]

Re: Small sample test: Reasons CPU doesn't bring in closer in save situations.

I play cpu-v-cpu. I try to intervene with the game as little as possible. I did manage both teams for the five years I played MVP Baseball 2005. The only time that I grab the joystick after the game has started is to correct a silly substitution by the cpu. Just saw the Marlins play the Mets. In the 8th inning, cpu pinch-runs for d'Arnaud with De Aza, then leaves him in to catch. Then, I grab the stick, pause, control the Mets and insert Plawecki behind the plate.
But as far as the pitching aspect goes, the adjustments I explain in this thread, http://www.operationsports.com/forum...na-rating.html, I get a very satisfying MLB experience with the current game engine. Not perfect, but much better, and I don't have to manage the pitching staffs. I sit back, keep a scorebook and broadcast the action in my own little baseball world. But that's just me. Everybody plays different.