9-3 putouts

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  • Blzer
    Resident film pundit
    • Mar 2004
    • 42520

    #16
    Re: 9-3 putouts

    Originally posted by countryboy
    And I’ll ask again, how often do you see the first baseman cover first base on a single to right field?

    My perspective is that the first baseman not covering the bag isn’t a “fix to an element that is broken”, but rather simulating what you see in actual baseball.


    Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports
    Fine, then the pitcher can cover. Whoever. Right fielders in the MLB rarely have a snowball's chance of being able to get that batter-runner out, but it's more than possible in this game. I'm referring to the outfielder's timing more than anything else. There is a reason the first baseman doesn't cover in actual games, and that's because they can't get them out.

    This is true for most singles hit right to outfielders in these games. Whereas in baseball a hitter can take a nice wide turn around first base, sometimes your player actually has to run through the bag here instead of doing that tight rounding maneuver the game automatically initiates.

    The three biggest culprits are:

    1) Standard outfielder pre-positioning.
    2) Defenders' ability to charge a shot hit to them.
    3) Limited of slow-up/friction on the grass.

    But let's drop all of that for a moment and talk about real baseball. You don't think a player will cover first base on a base hit to right field? A slow-moving ground ball that the first and second basemen are trying to get to? Sure, nobody but possibly the pitcher will get there. But we're talking about throw-outs to first base, and that's pretty much legitimately impossible in real life unless you're talking about a hard shot one- or two-hopper to right field, one of those that goes by the first baseman before he has time to make a second step toward the ball, and one where he realizes that his momentum should otherwise redirect to first base. Yes, I think it's really extremely likely that he can and would cover first base in a scenario like that, unless he is shifted way over because of a right-handed pull hitter.

    Watch this video and tell me what the common trends are of the throw-outs that you see:

    <iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/Q2bdu7W3kTc" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>


    The majority of them are:

    1) Right-handed batters (farther from 1B and not as in position to run after their follow-through).

    2) Pitchers (often not meant for their speed, or ability to get out of the box, and outfielders tend to play them shallow and over toward oppo side).

    3) Hard line shots (no chance for the grass to slow the ball up, and heck some of them are on turf; also watch the first baseman react to the "base hit" and defer toward the bag). Also worth noting that there is a ground ball that sneaks through where there is a throw-out, but that was at Chase Field which has the fastest natural grass of any ballpark.

    4) Outfielders charging in a do-or-die scenario (you'll see many flail and catch off-center, and a lot could have gone wrong for them; these are not natural charges and this would often cost them on any other regular play, including a throw to home).

    5) Outfielders with cannon arms.


    Literally almost all of these things need to happen, and the result still becomes a bang-bang play. The reality is that if you had a moderate speed lefty up there hitting a semi-hard ground ball to a regularly-positioned outfielder, even if the outfielder makes a half-decent attempt to get the runner out with a player covering the bag, I bet you that batter-runner could even round first base and not have any issue whatsoever getting back to the bag.

    The biggest issue of all of these by far is the outfield positioning. Go to a ball game and make note of how deep (and off the lines for the most part) outfielders stand against every hitter. I might do that for a wishlist case when I go to a Giants game at the end of next month.

    This, much like bunts and many other oddities, are fixing broken parts but are not addressing the whole. There is still a lot of reconstructing in this game that is needed that aren't just these simple workarounds, because they aren't acknowledging the bigger issue(s).
    Last edited by Blzer; 07-02-2018, 01:34 PM.
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    • countryboy
      Growing pains
      • Sep 2003
      • 52775

      #17
      Re: 9-3 putouts

      Originally posted by NolanRyansSnowmonkey
      Except the fact that in MLB when there is a slow enough hitter and a sharp enough hit to RF the first baseman will cover the bag. That perfect storm just doesnt happen often in MLB.


      I never said it doesn’t happen, I asked how often?

      It can happen in the Show and does.

      And again if it happened routinely then people would be bitching that the game is broken because hits to right field lead to outs at first.


      Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports
      I can't shave with my eyes closed, meaning each day I have to look at myself in the mirror and respect who I see.

      I miss the old days of Operation Sports :(


      Louisville Cardinals/St.Louis Cardinals

      Comment

      • countryboy
        Growing pains
        • Sep 2003
        • 52775

        #18
        9-3 putouts

        Originally posted by Blzer
        Fine, then the pitcher can cover. Whoever. Right fielders in the MLB rarely have a snowball's chance of being able to get that batter-runner out, but it's more than possible in this game. I'm referring to the outfielder's timing more than anything else. There is a reason the first baseman doesn't cover in actual games, and that's because they can't get them out.

        This is true for most singles hit right to outfielders in these games. Whereas in baseball a hitter can take a nice wide turn around first base, sometimes your player actually has to run through the bag here instead of doing that tight rounding maneuver the game automatically initiates.

        The three biggest culprits are:

        1) Standard outfielder pre-positioning.
        2) Defenders' ability to charge a shot hit to them.
        3) Limited of slow-up/friction on the grass.

        But let's drop all of that for a moment and talk about real baseball. You don't think a player will cover first base on a base hit to right field? A slow-moving ground ball that the first and second basemen are trying to get to? Sure, nobody but possibly the pitcher will get there. But we're talking about throw-outs to first base, and that's pretty much legitimately impossible in real life unless you're talking about a hard shot one- or two-hopper to right field, one of those that goes by the first baseman before he has time to make a second step toward the ball, and one where he realizes that his momentum should otherwise redirect to first base. Yes, I think it's really extremely likely that he can and would cover first base in a scenario like that, unless he is shifted way over because of a right-handed pull hitter.

        Watch this video and tell me what the common trends are of the throw-outs that you see:




        The majority of them are:

        1) Right-handed batters (farther from 1B and not as in position to run after their follow-through).

        2) Pitchers (often not meant for their speed, or ability to get out of the box, and outfielders tend to play them shallow and over toward oppo side).

        3) Hard line shots (no chance for the grass to slow the ball up, and heck some of them are on turf; also watch the first baseman react to the "base hit" and defer toward the bag).

        4) Outfielders charging in a do-or-die scenario (you'll see many flail and catch off-center, and a lot could have gone wrong for them; these are not natural charges and this would often cost them on any other regular play, including a throw to home).

        5) Outfielders with cannon arms.


        Literally almost all of these things need to happen, and the result still becomes a bang-bang play. The reality is that if you had a moderate speed lefty up there hitting a semi-hard ground ball to a regularly-positioned outfielder, even if the outfielder makes a half-decent attempt to get the runner out with a player covering the bag, I bet you that batter-runner could even round first base and not have any issue whatsoever getting back to the bag.

        The biggest issue of all of these by far is the outfield positioning. Go to a ball game and make note of how deep (and off the lines for the most part) outfielders stand against every hitter. I might do that for a wishlist case when I go to a Giants game at the end of next month.

        This, much like bunts and many other oddities, are fixing broken parts but are not addressing the whole. There is still a lot of reconstructing in this game that is needed that aren't just these simple workarounds, because they aren't acknowledging the bigger issue(s).
        Nice essay

        How often in the Show on a ball hit to right field would you have a legimate shot to throw the runner out at first, providing the 1B was covering the bag?


        Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports
        I can't shave with my eyes closed, meaning each day I have to look at myself in the mirror and respect who I see.

        I miss the old days of Operation Sports :(


        Louisville Cardinals/St.Louis Cardinals

        Comment

        • NolanRyansSnowmonkey
          MVP
          • Jun 2016
          • 1354

          #19
          Re: 9-3 putouts

          Originally posted by countryboy
          I never said it doesn’t happen, I asked how often?

          It can happen in the Show and does.

          And again if it happened routinely then people would be bitching that the game is broken because hits to right field lead to outs at first.


          Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports
          I think the answer to 'how often does this happen' would be 100% of the time when there would be a clear play at first.

          I think the spirit of post is clear, that even when it should be possible, the first baseman isnt on the bag. I personally am perfectly fine with the first baseman not covering on a hit to the outfield.

          There are definitely more opportunities to do this in the Show than real life for some reason. I never even try to throw them out in franchise. But in 100s of games of testing i have, and no one was covering first. Sometimes the runner would have been out by several steps.

          It personally doesnt bother me at all that the first baseman doesnt cover, as i probably wouldnt try anyway. But i get what they are saying.
          Last edited by NolanRyansSnowmonkey; 06-30-2018, 12:17 PM.

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          • countryboy
            Growing pains
            • Sep 2003
            • 52775

            #20
            9-3 putouts

            Originally posted by NolanRyansSnowmonkey
            I think the spirit of post is clear, that even when it should be possible, the first baseman isnt on the bag. I personally am perfectly fine with the first baseman not covering on a hit to the outfield.



            There are definitely more opportunities to do this in the Show than real life for some reason. I never even try to throw them out in franchise. But in 100s of games of testing i have, and no one was covering first. Sometimes the runner would have been out by several steps.



            It personally doesnt bother me at all that the first baseman doesnt cover, as i probably wouldnt try anyway. But i get what they are saying.


            But apparently they do cover first at times because the OP has done it 3 or 4 times.

            That still seems excessive but it’s not that it can’t happen.

            Maybe there are more opportunities to do it that don’t happen because the 1B isn’t covering the bag, but that is probably a good thing.

            As for an underlying issue causing the devs to pull the 1B maybe in the world of video games it has to be done this way to help balance the game in terms of hitting.





            Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports
            Last edited by countryboy; 06-30-2018, 12:18 PM.
            I can't shave with my eyes closed, meaning each day I have to look at myself in the mirror and respect who I see.

            I miss the old days of Operation Sports :(


            Louisville Cardinals/St.Louis Cardinals

            Comment

            • NolanRyansSnowmonkey
              MVP
              • Jun 2016
              • 1354

              #21
              Re: 9-3 putouts

              Originally posted by countryboy
              But apparently they do cover first at times because the OP has done it 3 or 4 times.

              That still seems excessive but it’s not that it can’t happen.

              Maybe there are more opportunities to do it that don’t happen because the 1B isn’t covering the bag, but that is probably a good thing.

              As for an underlying issue causing the devs to pull the 1B maybe in the world of video games it has to be done this way to help balance the game in terms of hitting.
              I read that too but it surprises me that he ever was able to do it. In testing arm strengths and baserunner speeds he never covered first. Not one time.

              The last two sentences you wrote, i completely agree with, thats exactly why i am completely ok with it. (But i also get their valid point that in a "perfect" game this precautionary balance would not be necessary. Unfortunately for them, this is a video game, and its hard to balance everything perfectly - but this game gets it dang close -. Thus the first baseman not covering the bag)

              Comment

              • Blzer
                Resident film pundit
                • Mar 2004
                • 42520

                #22
                Re: 9-3 putouts

                Originally posted by countryboy
                Nice essay

                How often in the Show on a ball hit to right field would you have a legimate shot to throw the runner out at first, providing the 1B was covering the bag?
                Can't say I know for sure. I bet my mind has given up trying so I just don't bother even if/when it's possible. But it's enough that this thread has been created to state that the game has to take its own countermeasures to eliminate the possibility.
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                • countryboy
                  Growing pains
                  • Sep 2003
                  • 52775

                  #23
                  Re: 9-3 putouts

                  Originally posted by Blzer
                  Can't say I know for sure. I bet my mind has given up trying so I just don't bother even if/when it's possible. But it's enough that this thread has been created to state that the game has to take its own countermeasures to eliminate the possibility.


                  Beats the alternative


                  Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports
                  I can't shave with my eyes closed, meaning each day I have to look at myself in the mirror and respect who I see.

                  I miss the old days of Operation Sports :(


                  Louisville Cardinals/St.Louis Cardinals

                  Comment

                  • Blzer
                    Resident film pundit
                    • Mar 2004
                    • 42520

                    #24
                    Re: 9-3 putouts

                    Originally posted by countryboy
                    Beats the alternative
                    In some ways it does, but in other ways it doesn't. It makes me feel they won't find a need to fix it for real by putting a band-aid on it now.
                    Samsung PN60F8500 PDP / Anthem MRX 720 / Klipsch RC-62 II / Klipsch RF-82 II (x2) / Insignia NS-B2111 (x2) / SVS PC13-Ultra / SVS SB-2000 / Sony MDR-7506 Professional / Audio-Technica ATH-R70x / Sony PS3 & PS4 / DirecTV HR44-500 / DarbeeVision DVP-5000 / Panamax M5400-PM / Elgato HD60

                    Comment

                    • countryboy
                      Growing pains
                      • Sep 2003
                      • 52775

                      #25
                      Re: 9-3 putouts

                      Originally posted by Blzer
                      In some ways it does, but in other ways it doesn't. It makes me feel they won't find a need to fix it for real by putting a band-aid on it now.


                      Maybe in regards to the game as a whole in terms of not having unrealistic amounts of 9-3 putouts while also balancing the hitting for the game overall this is the fix.




                      Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports
                      I can't shave with my eyes closed, meaning each day I have to look at myself in the mirror and respect who I see.

                      I miss the old days of Operation Sports :(


                      Louisville Cardinals/St.Louis Cardinals

                      Comment

                      • CujoMatty
                        Member of Rush Nation
                        • Oct 2007
                        • 5445

                        #26
                        Re: 9-3 putouts

                        i have the first baseman not covering the bag most the time but I have also had the game change my throw from green to pulling the first baseman off the bag intentionally a couple times. I get why they do it though and appreciate trying to make sure it doesn't happen too often.

                        I did manage to do it once this year though and saved a video.

                        <iframe width="640" height="360" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/dSEF43hMTzk" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>
                        2016 NLL Champion Saskatchewan Rush
                        2018 NLL Champion Saskatchewan Rush
                        2019 CEBL Champion Saskatchewan Rattlers

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                        • KnightTemplar
                          MVP
                          • Feb 2017
                          • 3282

                          #27
                          Re: 9-3 putouts

                          Originally posted by CujoMatty
                          i have the first baseman not covering the bag most the time but I have also had the game change my throw from green to pulling the first baseman off the bag intentionally a couple times. I get why they do it though and appreciate trying to make sure it doesn't happen too often.

                          I did manage to do it once this year though and saved a video.

                          <iframe width="640" height="360" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/dSEF43hMTzk" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>
                          So, it appears something in the AI keys this, e.g. slow runner, certain type of hit/velocity. If so, it appears they’ve done a good job with this.

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                          • bcruise
                            Hall Of Fame
                            • Mar 2004
                            • 23274

                            #28
                            Re: 9-3 putouts

                            Originally posted by KnightTemplar
                            So, it appears something in the AI keys this, e.g. slow runner, certain type of hit/velocity. If so, it appears they’ve done a good job with this.
                            I think the hit type and direction is what matters the most on this. Basically, any hit directly to the RF that the 1b does not react to off the bat (either because it was hit too hard or too nearer to 2nd). Those are the ones that cause the 1B to cover 1st and have a chance of a 9-3 putout.

                            Whether that chance turns into success depends on who's running and who's throwing (their ratings)

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                            • Unlucky 13
                              MVP
                              • Apr 2009
                              • 1707

                              #29
                              Re: 9-3 putouts

                              Good thread.

                              Its hard to do, but it is possible. I try A LOT, and I get the runner once in a while. As others have said, there needs to be the right circumstances. I understand the desire for realism, but its still always frustrating when I'm pounding on the button, and my OF refuses to throw the ball.

                              As for real life, I think that this is one of those unwritten rules among the players. On a hit to RF, the player feels safe to lollygag to first base, knowing that the opposition is unlikely to try and get him out. I'll be lazy now, and you can be lazy later, type of deal, rather than everyone running it out and trying their hardest. While I love baseball and MLB, those type of things have always bothered me.
                              Anyone who claims to be a fan of two teams in the same pro sport is actually a fan of none.

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                              • Ace1234NY
                                Rookie
                                • Jan 2018
                                • 92

                                #30
                                Re: 9-3 putouts

                                I'm seeing people dismiss the problem entirely simply because the first baseman usually doesn't cover and therefore the 9-3 putouts are usually prevented. But I disagree this is problem solved. There is definitely an underlying issue here and it has a real impact in the game when you have a similar hit with a runner on first. On these plays, the SS (or 2B) does cover second and you get far too many 9-6 (or 7-4) put outs at 2nd.

                                This usually happens on a line drive to RF that comes close to the runner, causing him to do the animation to jump of the way and delaying his start to 2nd. It also happens on bloops where the runner has to wait halfway because he's unsure if the ball will drop. The CPU is merciless about taking these opportunities. But it's something you very rarely see in real life. I have a video saved that really illustrates this point. I just haven't bothered linking my PS account to upload it. Perhaps I should do that if people want a visual of what I'm talking about.

                                So my point is that I agree with those who say this is indicative of an underlying problem and that simply applying a band-aid like not having the first baseman cover and thinking it's fixed is not sufficient. These things shouldn't be possible in the first place. And it causes a significant number of outs at 2nd, where the same safeguard isn't applied.
                                Last edited by Ace1234NY; 07-02-2018, 01:28 PM.

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