Is it time for SDS to kill the win?

[Caulfield]

Re: Is it time for SDS to kill the win?

The Shows algorithm for choosing award winners is frustrating. They definitely value wins far too much. I have seen a 18 game winner with a 3.6ish ERA win the CY over a 14 game winner with a 2.3.

Its the same for the MVP award. They value certain stats far more then they should.

yeah, I want an opt-out on the cpu naming awards winners. let me look over ALL the stats & I'll tell who mvps & such are.

[nflman2033]

Re: Is it time for SDS to kill the win?

I don't think anyone is saying that. What I'm saying is that a guy with a .275 average and a .370 OBP is more valuable than a guy with a .300 average and a .340 OBP. Why? Because the guy with the .370 OBP makes less outs and that's the name of the game. Making less outs and getting on base. You can't score runs if you can't get on base.

Not to be that guy, but I will.

There is no 1 stat, you need to look at them all.

Your .275 hitter with .370 obp would be more valuable if all his ABs were with no one on base. But if his increased obp are a result of being walked with runners on 2nd and 3rd. I want the guy hitting .300. This is where that overrated RBI stat comes into play.

If you want one stat, I say you look at OPS. This will tell you who your best hitter is. For those sabermetric fans WAR is good, but if you sort the top 10 in WAR you'll usually see the same guys are top 10 in OPS.

[AUTiger1]

Re: Is it time for SDS to kill the win?

Not to be that guy, but I will.

There is no 1 stat, you need to look at them all.

Your .275 hitter with .370 obp would be more valuable if all his ABs were with no one on base. But if his increased obp are a result of being walked with runners on 2nd and 3rd. I want the guy hitting .300. This is where that overrated RBI stat comes into play.

If you want one stat, I say you look at OPS. This will tell you who your best hitter is. For those sabermetric fans WAR is good, but if you sort the top 10 in WAR you'll usually see the same guys are top 10 in OPS.

I never said look at only 1 stat. I never said average didn't have its place. I said OBP is more important.

[nflman2033]

Re: Is it time for SDS to kill the win?

I never said look at only 1 stat. I never said average didn't have its place. I said OBP is more important.

In the long run, yes, I agree. Ot just sounded like you cued it as the most important stat. I dont think it is the most important stat. I thi k it's part of a larger component. OPS

I still rather have a .300 hitter up withrunners in scoring position than a .400 OBP guy.

It's why as a Reds fan i hated Adam Dunn so much.

He'd get on base near .400 and with runners in scoring position he'd take his walk and the Reds would end up not scoring.

Brandon Phillips who wasn't a huge OBP guy would drive that run in. Nut then no one gives him credit for his RBIs, but people gushed over Dunns OBP.

Gotta give Dunn credit he was ahead of his time. It was either a Strike out a walk or a HR with him. The quintessential modern day player.

[AUTiger1]

Re: Is it time for SDS to kill the win?

In the long run, yes, I agree. Ot just sounded like you cued it as the most important stat. I dont think it is the most important stat. I thi k it's part of a larger component. OPS

I still rather have a .300 hitter up withrunners in scoring position than a .400 OBP guy.

It's why as a Reds fan i hated Adam Dunn so much.

He'd get on base near .400 and with runners in scoring position he'd take his walk and the Reds would end up not scoring.

Brandon Phillips who wasn't a huge OBP guy would drive that run in. Nut then no one gives him credit for his RBIs, but people gushed over Dunns OBP.

Gotta give Dunn credit he was ahead of his time. It was either a Strike out a walk or a HR with him. The quintessential modern day player.

No. OPS is more valuable than OBP. But then you've got to consider the type of player you're judging too. For example, take a guy like Juan Pierre in his day. If you judge him only by looking at OPS then you're doing him a big disservice since he wasn't a power guy. But he was one of the best lead off hitters of his generation.

[mlblover15]

Re: Is it time for SDS to kill the win?

I will never be on this newfangled bandwagon of stats... old school all the way... starters need to still go 6-9 innings so that you're not completely decimating your bullpen. which if you guys havent paid attention it has already started... bullpen pitchers were and are not build to pitch every day and or multiple innings.

wins will always matter.. but when it comes to Cy Young award... it has almost always LEARNED toward the ERA side of the table. which to me is less important than wins... if I were a writer voting I would always put wins over ERA.

we as baseball fans can not completely forget our history and just reinvent the game how we see fit. old school over new school every day all day!

[JaFFiTh]

Is it time for SDS to kill the win?

I will never be on this newfangled bandwagon of stats... old school all the way... starters need to still go 6-9 innings so that you're not completely decimating your bullpen. which if you guys havent paid attention it has already started... bullpen pitchers were and are not build to pitch every day and or multiple innings.



wins will always matter.. but when it comes to Cy Young award... it has almost always LEARNED toward the ERA side of the table. which to me is less important than wins... if I were a writer voting I would always put wins over ERA.



we as baseball fans can not completely forget our history and just reinvent the game how we see fit. old school over new school every day all day!

Wins means nothing. You’re winning cause you’re getting run support. If you get none which was the case with DeGrom. He led the league starters in ERA which means he limited them to as less run support as possible for the best chance to win but his team was much worse than he’s been trying for. There could be pitchers with 5 ERA but leads league in wins. You’d take that as Cy Young over someone like deGrom or Felix Hernandez during his prime?

Plus there are lots of factors into that than the win/loss and ERA. Scherzer could easily have won yet another one but the writers probably wanted someone new lol. I think deGrom is deserving for the award.

It’s for the individual not for the team work which win/loss comes in factor.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Caulfield]

Re: Is it time for SDS to kill the win?

I will never be on this newfangled bandwagon of stats... old school all the way... starters need to still go 6-9 innings so that you're not completely decimating your bullpen. which if you guys havent paid attention it has already started... bullpen pitchers were and are not build to pitch every day and or multiple innings.

we as baseball fans can not completely forget our history and just reinvent the game how we see fit.

not old school enough lol umm Rollie Fingers Sparky Lyle Goose Gossage.


The game has evolved constantly for 150+ years. It must continue to do so to be healthy, or face the same fate as horse racing and boxing.


revisionist history is reinventing the past.

[itsmb8]

Re: Is it time for SDS to kill the win?

I will never be on this newfangled bandwagon of stats... old school all the way... starters need to still go 6-9 innings so that you're not completely decimating your bullpen. which if you guys havent paid attention it has already started... bullpen pitchers were and are not build to pitch every day and or multiple innings.

wins will always matter.. but when it comes to Cy Young award... it has almost always LEARNED toward the ERA side of the table. which to me is less important than wins... if I were a writer voting I would always put wins over ERA.

we as baseball fans can not completely forget our history and just reinvent the game how we see fit. old school over new school every day all day!

you'd be great as a broadcaster. seems like all of those guys are super old school and not willing to accept the change. Valuing wins over ERA is basically saying you'd rather have a pitcher that wins a 13-12 game over a pitcher that loses a 1-0 game. If wins are more important to a pitchers value, Lester would be better than DeGrom in 2018, but if DeGrom was pitching instead of Lester, DeGrom would easily have 20+ wins compared to Lester's 18.

[Caulfield]

Re: Is it time for SDS to kill the win?

Assigning a win to one player, who just happens to be a pitcher, is shortsighted at best. As bad as giving a win to a goalie in hockey.

[reyes the roof]

Re: Is it time for SDS to kill the win?

I still think wins can be a useful stat, but you need to look at the bigger picture and not focus on any one stat. What deGrom did this year was an outlier, generally speaking a guy with 18-20 wins will have had a better season than a guy with 10 wins

[OneTonneBaby]

Re: Is it time for SDS to kill the win?

Been calling for advanced stats in the show for some time and the addition of WAR a few years ago was a good one. I would like more and them to be valued more when taking into account the awards, all star game and trade value.

[nflman2033]

Re: Is it time for SDS to kill the win?

The stat is at best out dates, back when Cy Young pitched, you pitched until the game was over, great pitchers held their opponent down until his team score enough runs to win the game.

By the 70s pitchers started to get taken out more in late inning, making the stat less important.

Now the bullpen is becoming the showcase of the staff making wins irrelevant.

But to be honest, even for Cy Young, is win loss record important?

Cy loses his game 0-1 but Joe Schmoe wins his game 8-7. Who's the better pitcher? Remember Cy Young also has most career losses.

Unless you include a pitchers hitting stats, which eliminates the AL, a good pitcher can not win a game by himself, he can in fact only lose a game.

So by that logic you should be more apt at looking at the number if losses a pitcher has.... But honestly, win loss record tells you nothing about the pitcher. ERA is still right at the top for important stats, at least for SPs, maybe not so much for RP, as guys can have bad years, but low era, remember if a pitcher leaves the game with a runner on base, that run is still charged to him. If the RP gives up that run, but allows no other runs, his era is 0.00, but did he really do a good job.

I like WHIP a lot better especially for RP, but even good for SP.

[AUTiger1]

Re: Is it time for SDS to kill the win?

The stat is at best out dates, back when Cy Young pitched, you pitched until the game was over, great pitchers held their opponent down until his team score enough runs to win the game.

By the 70s pitchers started to get taken out more in late inning, making the stat less important.

Now the bullpen is becoming the showcase of the staff making wins irrelevant.

But to be honest, even for Cy Young, is win loss record important?

Cy loses his game 0-1 but Joe Schmoe wins his game 8-7. Who's the better pitcher? Remember Cy Young also has most career losses.

Unless you include a pitchers hitting stats, which eliminates the AL, a good pitcher can not win a game by himself, he can in fact only lose a game.

So by that logic you should be more apt at looking at the number if losses a pitcher has.... But honestly, win loss record tells you nothing about the pitcher. ERA is still right at the top for important stats, at least for SPs, maybe not so much for RP, as guys can have bad years, but low era, remember if a pitcher leaves the game with a runner on base, that run is still charged to him. If the RP gives up that run, but allows no other runs, his era is 0.00, but did he really do a good job.

I like WHIP a lot better especially for RP, but even good for SP.

WHIP and Inherited runners are the top two stats I use to judge relief pitchers. For starting pitchers it's ERA and WHIP.