Franchise Mode is Piece of a Bigger Picture Says San Diego Studios

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  • Archie56
    MVP
    • Feb 2009
    • 1556

    #151
    Re: Franchise Mode is Piece of a Bigger Picture Says San Diego Studios

    Originally posted by TheWarmWind
    It's true, there was no way to avoid negative blowback from the franchise loving community.

    But if you were to go back in time and be put in charge of PR at SDS, and Nick came up to you as said "I'm about to go do an interview with OS talking about franchise" what would your response be?

    Personally, I would chain him to a chair before I let him go do that interview, especially if I knew he was going to say something like "Franchise needs to be more accessible to casual players". Saying something like that directly to a hardcore franchise community was always going to evoke a vitriolic response.

    It's true that silence would have created negative feelings as well, but do you really think it would have been worse than this?

    Sent from my Pixel 3 using Operation Sports mobile app
    I'm not saying it would be better or worse. All I was saying is that whether they say something or don't, they'll get scrutinized. And believe me, I for one, completely agree that constructive criticism helps to make a better game. And there are definitely people in here that criticize in a constructive manner. But there are also others that don't do it that way, and that's where the problem in these forums lie. I've been reading these forums for many years, hardly ever post, and I remember a time where it was much more constructive. Just seems to have gotten worse lately in the past couple years.

    Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

    Comment

    • Dolenz
      MVP
      • May 2014
      • 2056

      #152
      Re: Franchise Mode is Piece of a Bigger Picture Says San Diego Studios

      Originally posted by jb12780
      They say that franchise mode can be cumbersome, yet how many hours does it take to unlock all of the immortals in DD? Less than or more than playing a whole 162 game season in franchise mode? Would be an interesting case study.
      I would guess that it is multitude more to unlock all of the immortals. of course the number who do that is small in comparison to the number that play the mode. Just like the number of franchise players who play all 162 games in franchise mode is probably not the majority.

      People have talked about the other modes as being modes for casual players but I would guess that the time spent and innings played by say the top 10% of DD players would dwarf those same numbers of top 10% of Franchise players.

      I just went and glanced at a person on the show nation who shows over 1,500 hours in the DD mode. 3,109 games played in their history. Even if those are 3 inning games that still translates to 1,036 9 inning games.

      Comment

      • ChaseB
        #BringBackFaceuary
        • Oct 2003
        • 9844

        #153
        Re: Franchise Mode is Piece of a Bigger Picture Says San Diego Studios

        Originally posted by knich
        I find it ironic defending posters who are critical of SDS since I have been one of the most vocal defenders of SDS. That said, I agree there is a big difference between constructive criticism and calling developers liars. But the feedback in this thread related to the specific article that included developer comments that were if not outright lies then extremely misleading/deceptive.

        This is the quote most people are angry about: “I read Operations Sports. I read all 26-plus pages from last night’s stream,” Livingston said. “I’m very in-touch with the Operation Sports community. I see a lot of the discussions back and forth, feeling like we’re money motivated and we’re not. We’re not at all, and it’s not a consideration.” SDS is a for profit business. Of course it is motivated by money. And there is nothing wrong with that. I have bought the game at least twice just from purchasing STUBS for RTTS. I am not complaining as I had a choice..but don't say that making money is "not a consideration." I haven't even touched on DD. So you have to call a spade a spade. And the folks in this thread called BS as do I. That is not an attack...that is a fact.

        Now folks can agree to disagree on whether SDS has done enough this year to address franchise by simply adding real contracts: “I feel like we’ve done enough this year, with the amount of focus we put on Road to the Show, with the amount of focus we put on March to October.” Note the quote makes no specific reference to franchise. This is what folks on this thread are critical about...And I think they have been civil but blunt. SDS also has to be fair to the consumer. It goes both ways.
        Both can be true. The company is money-motivated -- capitalism etc. etc. -- but it's not a developer's problem to keep that at the forefront of his thoughts when he's creating a design for something or determining what he thinks will push the game forward for the audience. It's also easy enough to point out practices where SDS has specifically removed things that would lead to profits for them, or flat out developers have told people not to buy packs with real money. Companies are large and can have various competing interests, determining something like this is black and white to say it's proof isn't really worth the trouble. Or, in another context, yes a developer can look at another game and copy what's there, or he or she might have more interest in trying to do some new things in the area rather than just improve on what's existed previously.

        Regardless, it's kind of dumb to try and prove motivations anyway because who cares really? The motivation is sort of irrelevant here, it's far more constructive to say "hey I want this, why can't it be a thing within the scope of where you're taking franchise mode?" rather than saying they're lying/spinning/don't care about the feature I like. You can say "X game has this feature, why doesn't Y game have it now as well?" rather than be like "well it's not there because they hate us." You're not going to be able to "prove" you're right about a developer's inner feelings, so it's just more useful to stick to what can or cannot be improved or fixed.

        Or, someone can just not post about it if that's all someone is going to bring to the table is "lol devs are liars" because that's, ya know, always an option.

        Again, venting is a thing and I understand what you're getting at, but the idea that venting equates to saying "they're lying" rather than just saying "this isn't good enough to me" are different things. One is assuming sinister underpinnings, and the other is simply stating I think you can do better at your job in terms of prioritizing things.
        I won't ask for Christmas or birthday gifts if you subscribe to the Operation Sports Newsletter (Not Just Another Roster Update). I write it, and it hits your inbox every Friday morning (for freeeeeee). We also have an official OS Discord you can now join.

        Comment

        • ChaseB
          #BringBackFaceuary
          • Oct 2003
          • 9844

          #154
          Re: Franchise Mode is Piece of a Bigger Picture Says San Diego Studios

          Originally posted by Dolenz
          I would guess that it is multitude more to unlock all of the immortals. of course the number who do that is small in comparison to the number that play the mode. Just like the number of franchise players who play all 162 games in franchise mode is probably not the majority.

          People have talked about the other modes as being modes for casual players but I would guess that the time spent and innings played by say the top 10% of DD players would dwarf those same numbers of top 10% of Franchise players.

          I just went and glanced at a person on the show nation who shows over 1,500 hours in the DD mode. 3,109 games played in their history. Even if those are 3 inning games that still translates to 1,036 9 inning games.
          I would think it's relatively equal for me. In terms of raw innings I would bet the 162 games and playoffs is more game time, but in terms of sitting in menus and buying crap from the marketplace it might take more overall time within DD. But then it also depends on how much time you spend in the menus within franchise mode. Having played 162 games many times and also done a good chunk of the Immortals this past season, it felt like a similar commitment, albeit the chunks of time are shorter in DD for me most of the time than when I'm racking up 3-5 9 inning games in franchise.
          I won't ask for Christmas or birthday gifts if you subscribe to the Operation Sports Newsletter (Not Just Another Roster Update). I write it, and it hits your inbox every Friday morning (for freeeeeee). We also have an official OS Discord you can now join.

          Comment

          • Dolenz
            MVP
            • May 2014
            • 2056

            #155
            Re: Franchise Mode is Piece of a Bigger Picture Says San Diego Studios

            Originally posted by ChaseB
            I would think it's relatively equal for me. In terms of raw innings I would bet the 162 games and playoffs is more game time, but in terms of sitting in menus and buying crap from the marketplace it might take more overall time within DD. But then it also depends on how much time you spend in the menus within franchise mode. Having played 162 games many times and also done a good chunk of the Immortals this past season, it felt like a similar commitment, albeit the chunks of time are shorter in DD for me most of the time than when I'm racking up 3-5 9 inning games in franchise.

            Probably true at the end of the season but isn't the way they staggered the immortals and position players pretty much a guarantee that you will wind up having to duplicate some grinds that you may have already done?


            It's an honest question. I don't even attempt the grinds when they look as daunting as this past years immortals did.

            Comment

            • Therebelyell626
              MVP
              • Mar 2018
              • 2892

              #156
              Re: Franchise Mode is Piece of a Bigger Picture Says San Diego Studios

              Originally posted by Archie56
              I'm not saying it would be better or worse. All I was saying is that whether they say something or don't, they'll get scrutinized. And believe me, I for one, completely agree that constructive criticism helps to make a better game. And there are definitely people in here that criticize in a constructive manner. But there are also others that don't do it that way, and that's where the problem in these forums lie. I've been reading these forums for many years, hardly ever post, and I remember a time where it was much more constructive. Just seems to have gotten worse lately in the past couple years.

              Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk
              In all fairness, we are going on nearly five years of this mode being neglected and treated like a redheaded step child. This is amplified by the fact that SDS did say a few years ago that this would be the 3 year cycle where franchise would actually be getting some meaningful updates (I saw underdog13 post this somewhere. Maybe he can confirm) and much needed love. Instead they have doubled back and are now just making open ended statements that are making people feel like they are even more lost on what we want then ever before.

              After 3 years people were upset. But after 5 years people are just pissed off. Maybe this is why these kind of threads seem more negative then ever before.

              I for one am glad people are pissed off. It seems as if SDS is finally taking notice of this because of it.

              Comment

              • BigOscar
                MVP
                • May 2016
                • 2971

                #157
                Re: Franchise Mode is Piece of a Bigger Picture Says San Diego Studios

                When you consider that completing 5 Team Epics was a way of skipping 5% of an immortal and each one required 200 innings pitched with players from that team, it's probably fair to say DD was a hugely time consuming mode, far moreso than a single 162 game season. Conquest Extreme required you to pretty much play about 500 3 inning games iirc, then as was mentioned above, the marketplace was a huge time sink as well. That's before you even get into the second wave of player arc grinds (some of the pitcher ones were particularly long)

                The whole "162 games is cumbersome" line doesn't really add up as an excuse when you look at a lot of the DD content from last year.

                But DD is so much more supported and has so much more depth, so that huge grind doesn't seem quite so long as there is other stuff going on while it's happening, you are always working on multiple things at once and there is a plethora of things to check and do between games.

                Whereas Franchise is so bare bones that it can get to feel like you're just playing 162 games in a row without really anything in between. If they make more things to do between games, more reason to check on things, then the season wouldn't seem as long and "cumbersome".

                Comment

                • Dolenz
                  MVP
                  • May 2014
                  • 2056

                  #158
                  Re: Franchise Mode is Piece of a Bigger Picture Says San Diego Studios

                  I actually find both the DD grinds and a 162 game franchise daunting.

                  But I play a ton of other games. Some devote all their gaming time to The Show but it winds up being a relatively small chunk of my overall gaming hours.

                  Maybe I will try my player lock franchise again this year. I basically assigned a position to each day of the week (minus Pitcher and Catcher) and as I went through the schedule I player locked a position based on that day.

                  Comment

                  • speels
                    Pro
                    • Feb 2004
                    • 781

                    #159
                    Re: Franchise Mode is Piece of a Bigger Picture Says San Diego Studios

                    What I don't hear talk about with the new March to October is the really great possibility that this may lead to even more players looking at starting a franchise. Here you have a first foray into something other than card collection that doesn't tie up a lot of time to complete a season and see the end of a full year of ball. Plus, having the different types of team (ie Favorites, Contenders, etc) will allow people a chance to see what it takes to turn a long shot into a contender and how hard it is to stay on top, all the while keeping the game short and fun.

                    What I like is through March to October is that any team seems to have a chance to win it all. Whereas in Franchise it may take a couple seasons for the Miami Marlins to field a competitive team. This opens up the possibilities of new fans of the game to take a recognized team and fall in love with them because they get to make them relevant. This is a great thing for franchise mode because that challenge of turning a pretender into a contender may just draw people to do it over a longer period of time.

                    I believe them when they say that franchise mode is a Piece of the bigger picture because I think that a mode like March to October is a definite piece that will get more people interested in franchise, and the more people interested in franchise will lead to an online franchise where you get to play others rather than the computer because that is what people are interested in.
                    Last edited by speels; 03-12-2019, 01:38 PM.

                    Comment

                    • Dolenz
                      MVP
                      • May 2014
                      • 2056

                      #160
                      Re: Franchise Mode is Piece of a Bigger Picture Says San Diego Studios

                      Originally posted by speels
                      What I don't hear talk about with the new March to October is the really great possibility that this may lead to even more players looking at starting a franchise.
                      I brought it up in one of the MTO threads and it was pretty much dismissed as nonsense by the hardcore, 162 game, custom roster players.

                      I can't see a ton of people carrying over their saves and giving it a try but I can see others doing so. Maybe I will be one.

                      Comment

                      • MoneyMan17
                        Rookie
                        • Jan 2017
                        • 336

                        #161
                        Re: Franchise Mode is Piece of a Bigger Picture Says San Diego Studios

                        Nice for someone from SDS to at least address the issues that we talk so much about on these forums and let us know that we are heard.

                        Confirms a lot of what we already know, such as that a one year development cycle really isn’t a lot of time to do a massive overhaul of franchise when there are other modes to think about too. And I understand that they have to reach the “casual gamer” or else there wouldn’t be a game at all. There simply aren’t enough diehards to sustain the game long term, business wise.

                        Also leaves me feeling like we probably won’t ever get a major one year franchise overhaul, but a continuation of incremental improvements year by year.

                        Also nice that he addressed the claims that they are only after money from DD mode.

                        Comment

                        • kehlis
                          Moderator
                          • Jul 2008
                          • 27738

                          #162
                          Franchise Mode is Piece of a Bigger Picture Says San Diego Studios

                          So many people on both sides have put together so very well thought out posts only to ruin it by throwing in a degrading statement right at the end in order to get their shot in.

                          Guys, leave the stupid crap out of your posts like “so people can whine and complain all they want” and your entire point will be taken more seriously. The second you throw out your degrading statement, the rest of your post pretty much becomes null.

                          Comment

                          • ty5oke
                            87%
                            • Feb 2003
                            • 2912

                            #163
                            Re: Franchise Mode is Piece of a Bigger Picture Says San Diego Studios

                            Originally posted by speels
                            What I don't hear talk about with the new March to October is the really great possibility that this may lead to even more players looking at starting a franchise. Here you have a first foray into something other than card collection that doesn't tie up a lot of time to complete a season and see the end of a full year of ball. Plus, having the different types of team (ie Favorites, Contenders, etc) will allow people a chance to see what it takes to turn a long shot into a contender and how hard it is to stay on top, all the while keeping the game short and fun.

                            What I like is through March to October is that any team seems to have a chance to win it all. Whereas in Franchise it may take a couple seasons for the Miami Marlins to field a competitive team. This opens up the possibilities of new fans of the game to take a recognized team and fall in love with them because they get to make them relevant. This is a great thing for franchise mode because that challenge of turning a pretender into a contender may just draw people to do it over a longer period of time.

                            I believe them when they say that franchise mode is a Piece of the bigger picture because I think that a mode like March to October is a definite piece that will get more people interested in franchise, and the more people interested in franchise will lead to an online franchise where you get to play others rather than the computer because that is what people are interested in.

                            So people can whine and complain about the lack of improvement to franchise all they want, that is their right, but to not see a bigger picture and just throw away SDS as a company that is only in it for the money because they added a new mode but didn't upgrade an existing mode, is just foolish IMHO.
                            I'm worried if March to October is part of a bigger franchise picture. It sounds to me like it would lead to more scripted, story-telling franchise mode without customization and dynamic changes.
                            Seattle Pilots GM (2011 - ) Record: 152 - 195

                            Operation Sports OOTP League

                            Comment

                            • BigOscar
                              MVP
                              • May 2016
                              • 2971

                              #164
                              Re: Franchise Mode is Piece of a Bigger Picture Says San Diego Studios

                              Originally posted by Dolenz
                              I brought it up in one of the MTO threads and it was pretty much dismissed as nonsense by the hardcore, 162 game, custom roster players.

                              I can't see a ton of people carrying over their saves and giving it a try but I can see others doing so. Maybe I will be one.
                              I am pretty surprised they didn't mention that in the interview, or any suggestion that some of the things implemented for Mto might make their way into franchise. They didn't really mention it in the streams either, which again was surprising. I really thought they'd at least try and sell it as a gateway to franchise but they more sort of just mentioned you could go onto a franchise at the and then just moved on without any real attempt to sell people on the idea.

                              It seemed like a missed opportunity tbh

                              Comment

                              • knich
                                MVP
                                • Jan 2005
                                • 1116

                                #165
                                Re: Franchise Mode is Piece of a Bigger Picture Says San Diego Studios

                                Originally posted by ChaseB
                                Both can be true. The company is money-motivated -- capitalism etc. etc. -- but it's not a developer's problem to keep that at the forefront of his thoughts when he's creating a design for something or determining what he thinks will push the game forward for the audience. It's also easy enough to point out practices where SDS has specifically removed things that would lead to profits for them, or flat out developers have told people not to buy packs with real money. Companies are large and can have various competing interests, determining something like this is black and white to say it's proof isn't really worth the trouble. Or, in another context, yes a developer can look at another game and copy what's there, or he or she might have more interest in trying to do some new things in the area rather than just improve on what's existed previously.

                                Regardless, it's kind of dumb to try and prove motivations anyway because who cares really? The motivation is sort of irrelevant here, it's far more constructive to say "hey I want this, why can't it be a thing within the scope of where you're taking franchise mode?" rather than saying they're lying/spinning/don't care about the feature I like. You can say "X game has this feature, why doesn't Y game have it now as well?" rather than be like "well it's not there because they hate us." You're not going to be able to "prove" you're right about a developer's inner feelings, so it's just more useful to stick to what can or cannot be improved or fixed.

                                Or, someone can just not post about it if that's all someone is going to bring to the table is "lol devs are liars" because that's, ya know, always an option.

                                Again, venting is a thing and I understand what you're getting at, but the idea that venting equates to saying "they're lying" rather than just saying "this isn't good enough to me" are different things. One is assuming sinister underpinnings, and the other is simply stating I think you can do better at your job in terms of prioritizing things.
                                I agree mostly with your post but like I said you have to call a spade a spade. I was very specific in my post. I wasn't venting (perhaps others were), and I don't toss any criticism at SDS lightly. And if SDS looks at the history of my posts, it will know that. I was addressing this thread and that specific article only. We are rightly asked on this forum to choose our words carefully. I try to do that. If Nick is going to speak for SDS (and I know he knows this) he should too. You have to ask why give an interview whose questions focused primarily on franchise..there had to be a reason for it? Now Woodweaver (whom I respect greatly as a developer and has done an amazing job with gameplay) liked your post so perhaps he (or Nick) can explain where I have gone wrong in my interpretation of Nick's quotes.

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