My little brother is this game’s target audience

[canes21]

Re: My little brother is this game’s target audience

Define kids? I am 56 and play DD the majority of the time, with a sliver of time spent in RTTS.



I am also on year two of my franchise in the most recent version of Out Of The Park Baseball so I am not some anti franchise guy.

I think what they mean is the DD crowd is what they assume a majority of kids, 18ish and younger, and that the majority of those same DD players don't even give franchise any play.

There are plenty of people that are not kids that play DD, but the assumption is the vast majority are kids.

I don't know what the actual demographics are, but that's what I assume they mean when they say SDS is catering mostly to kids. If the demographics are like that, their statements are not untrue. Just because you, myself, and others that are not kids play DD does not mean the mode isn't largely played by kids and thus SDS is mostly catering to kids with their game now.

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[AUChase]

Re: My little brother is this game’s target audience

It sucks when you start realizing games aren't necessarily made with you in mind anymore. I'm 31 and I have to already watch it or I'll start feeling like grandpa Simpson yelling at the clouds. It's not just sports games either.

I have spent thousands of hours playing Battlefield games over the years and this battle royale trend that I don't care for hasn't really hit close to home until a few years ago when DICE paid someone and used resources to develop a battle royale mode for their game. They saw what is working for other devs by being able to monetize seasons, battle passes, etc. and changed their development approach.. it backfired and the core game suffered.

It's similar to what you sometimes see happening with sports games and card collector modes. I don't really blame anyone for being worried about their favorite franchise because a lot of the complaints I'm seeing are features being removed without any real reason rather than things not being added. I don't think this community has any outrageous expectation because when you look across the aisle at Madden you see a franchise where they rip a feature out of the game and then reintroduce a few years later as something new.. or they simply never come back even though they are popular or heavily requested.

I just don't think it's anyone's fault for liking or playing a certain mode. There should be plenty of room for a quality franchise mode and for card collector modes because they are clearly popular. If that can't be achieved and there's not enough time then there needs to be serious consideration for a 2 year development cycle. The money they print on these card collector modes now that didn't exist several years ago should be enough to sustain a longer development cycle without the cash flow if they can keep adding content. I know annual sports releases are tradition and a lot of people look forward to it every year, but I would love it if a developer would actually take a stab at the longer cycle. Then again I already take a year off between most sports games so I'm probably the exception.

[Armor and Sword]

Re: My little brother is this game’s target audience

It sucks when you start realizing games aren't necessarily made with you in mind anymore. I'm 31 and I have to already watch it or I'll start feeling like grandpa Simpson yelling at the clouds. It's not just sports games either.

I have spent thousands of hours playing Battlefield games over the years and this battle royale trend that I don't care for hasn't really hit close to home until a few years ago when DICE paid someone and used resources to develop a battle royale mode for their game. They saw what is working for other devs by being able to monetize seasons, battle passes, etc. and changed their development approach.. it backfired and the core game suffered.

It's similar to what you sometimes see happening with sports games and card collector modes. I don't really blame anyone for being worried about their favorite franchise because a lot of the complaints I'm seeing are features being removed without any real reason rather than things not being added. I don't think this community has any outrageous expectation because when you look across the aisle at Madden you see a franchise where they rip a feature out of the game and then reintroduce a few years later as something new.. or they simply never come back even though they are popular or heavily requested.

I just don't think it's anyone's fault for liking or playing a certain mode. There should be plenty of room for a quality franchise mode and for card collector modes because they are clearly popular. If that can't be achieved and there's not enough time then there needs to be serious consideration for a 2 year development cycle. The money they print on these card collector modes now that didn't exist several years ago should be enough to sustain a longer development cycle without the cash flow if they can keep adding content. I know annual sports releases are tradition and a lot of people look forward to it every year, but I would love it if a developer would actually take a stab at the longer cycle. Then again I already take a year off between most sports games so I'm probably the exception.

The 2 year development cycle for licensed sports games will never happen.

Period.

Unlicensed is another story. A perfect example is Super Mega Baseball. The improvements from the first to now the 3rd iteration are really stark. So while it is a great wish they could have longer to develop the game. The major governing bodies (NBA, MLB, NFL, NHL) Simply will not allow it. Did I leave out soccer? Yeah soccer does not count (LOL....no offense).

[AUChase]

Re: My little brother is this game’s target audience

The 2 year development cycle for licensed sports games will never happen.

Period.

Unlicensed is another story. A perfect example is Super Mega Baseball. The improvements from the first to now the 3rd iteration are really stark. So while it is a great wish they could have longer to develop the game. The major governing bodies (NBA, MLB, NFL, NHL) Simply will not allow it. Did I leave out soccer? Yeah soccer does not count (LOL....no offense).

Wishful thinking is just me being wishful after all lol.

The fact that it doesn't happen is why I had to make my own rule for it.

[canes21]

Re: My little brother is this game’s target audience

Wishful thinking is just me being wishful after all lol.

The fact that it doesn't happen is why I had to make my own rule for it.

This is why I wish a sports dev would finally take a stab at having their teams split up in a way to where you leave X number of employees working on the core game year over year like they do now. You take another group and have then work on the next upcoming release, and then you take the remaining group and have them work on the release that is after the upcoming release. Then those two prior groups essentially alternate releases giving then 2 cycles and not just 9 months to flesh out features.

It's worked for other genres. I don't think sports games are some special unique genre where the approach would work here either. These card modes are bringing in more money than ever, the funds are there to reinvest back into the game in new ways.

If anyone was to do it first, it'd probably be 2k and then EA. Both have massive amounts of resources to try that approach out with and see. 2k is the best selling game, prints money with MyPlayer and MyTeam, and they also have that Take-Two money behind them as well.

I guess the sales say otherwise, but something needs to change in sports game development because about all annually released sports titles have gotten worse and worse at fleshing their games out and I don't think it is a lack of trying.

It's not 2005 anymore. Games are more complicated than ever and 9 months is hardly enough time for these devs to do anything significant.

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[Gagnon39]

Re: My little brother is this game’s target audience

I have three kids, two that play games fairly regularly and I agree completely that these games are geared towards those crowds. What’s worse is that my kids and every single one of their friends have absolutely zero interest in franchise mode. They play Diamond Dynasty and some Road to The Show.

So, as I’ve said for years and years, franchise is dying. I’m not telling anyone anything to they don’t already know but it’s depressing.


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[dalger21]

Re: My little brother is this game’s target audience

Everyone enjoys the game the way they want. But when features that are critical to your enjoyment are removed without hearing reasons???

We have every right to question it and be upset about it without getting snarky responses from elitist posters here or trolls.

The forum here is not what it once used to be.

My 2 cents.


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My sentiments exactly. RttS is so drastically changed that I do not see myself buying another TS game.

[Caulfield]

Re: My little brother is this game’s target audience

The 2 year development cycle for licensed sports games will never happen.

Period.

Unlicensed is another story. A perfect example is Super Mega Baseball. The improvements from the first to now the 3rd iteration are really stark. So while it is a great wish they could have longer to develop the game. The major governing bodies (NBA, MLB, NFL, NHL) Simply will not allow it. Did I leave out soccer? Yeah soccer does not count (LOL....no offense).

yeah, the absolutely only way that could happen is if the developers (actually their bosses bosses) all told either the nfl, nba, nhl & mlb they could no longer make a yearly game for their league for financial reasons and they were going to have to get out developing/publishing games for their league. then those leagues would have to decide if they want to look elsewhere for their game to be made or if they could live with 2 year cycles.

but again, not gonna happen as long as they are making money. and all indications are they clearly are.
now occasionally you will see something like with 2k getting out of baseball because of not being able to compete with the Show, or EA getting out of NBA (off again, on again) can't compete with 2k.

but I really don't like saying never because 5 years ago it was unthinkable that Sony would ever make the Show for any other platform other than PlayStation

[Tweeg]

Re: My little brother is this game’s target audience

I don’t understand where this mentality comes from to want nothing but action and speed the games up. Even as a kid I loved playing full 9 inning games and the full atmosphere of every type of game. That’s the beauty of Baseball, sometimes it’s a relaxed atmosphere, sometimes it’s tense, sometimes it’s routine and sometimes it’s crazy.

But kids and even adults these days just want nothing but action lol. Nothing wrong with that but as a more traditional baseball fan I fear that The Show is going to start being more arcade like.

You ever see a Youtube video from somebody under 30? So many quick cuts, they put 10 minutes of real life speaking into 3 and a half minutes.

[JayhawkerStL]

Re: My little brother is this game’s target audience

Not trying to hate on him obviously, but he is a poster child for this game’s audience. He likes the simplicity and hand-holding of MTO, and isn’t even aware of the franchise community. He thinks I’m a unicorn for spending hundreds of hours on my franchise.

I am many things, but I am no unicorn!



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There are two HUGE problems with this.

First. You are a unicorn. Take a look at the downloaded rosters on The Show. The download totals show that the impact of even the most popular rosters have almost no impact on the community.

Second, one of the reasons publishers would rather cater to your brother and not you, and the same reason the devs don’t come here anymore is this exact toxic crap.

They would prefer a community that doesn’t encourage others to shun the people responsible for buying most of the games they sell.

If franchise guys could just enjoy their mode without attacking people that prefer others, they might invest more in the mode. But franchise gamers cost them sales, on purpose.

That’s the gist of your message. Shame people like your brother into not playing, so Sony caters to you.

[Armor and Sword]

Re: My little brother is this game’s target audience

There are two HUGE problems with this.

First. You are a unicorn. Take a look at the downloaded rosters on The Show. The download totals show that the impact of even the most popular rosters have almost no impact on the community.

Second, one of the reasons publishers would rather cater to your brother and not you, and the same reason the devs don’t come here anymore is this exact toxic crap.

They would prefer a community that doesn’t encourage others to shun the people responsible for buying most of the games they sell.

If franchise guys could just enjoy their mode without attacking people that prefer others, they might invest more in the mode. But franchise gamers cost them sales, on purpose.

That’s the gist of your message. Shame people like your brother into not playing, so Sony caters to you.

Now this is load of horse ****. I say that in a light manner BTW as JayHawk you have always made great points about the industry throughout the years.

But several of us have had great rapport with developers from SDS (myself included) and they have moved on not because of toxic franchise whiners (yes there are plenty of those) but because of the trends in sports games and video games in general.

I have fully come to grips with it. It just sucks that it finally is affecting some of our enjoyment. I love this game. I think everyone knows that. It is my favrotire all time sports game bar none.

But things have changed.

At least we have MLB 20 to keep us very happy. And in the meantime I hope SDS can re-evaluate what we (offline franchise and RTTS players) really love about the series in addition to the outstanding gameplay. They had genre changing features (Y2Y, SOTS) that were removed and IMO never coming back.

I hope to hear otherwise as do many of us. Until then.....we are out. And that is ok.

But the point is.....it is not because of a handful of toxic whiners they ignore franchise mode. It simply because their is no financial incentive at all with the advent of micros transactions. I mean.....geez they even removed the ability to earn XP and stubs playing franchise the way I always have.....because some exploit it?

Awful bandaid. I loved earning XP and reward path packs on 20 (still earning them in fact) That was my pleasure with Diamond Dynasty.....not the actual playing of the mode (I am just no into it except maybe player path moment missions which are fun) but simply collecting cards.....playing the market to sell cards for stubs to turn around and use to purchase sponsorships and budget for franchise and equipment for my 1987 RTTS player I have had since MLB 18. Yeah I play RTTS too. I just never advertise it. That mode is a shadow of itself. I went over to a buddy’s house last night and played some 21. Man.....gameplay...great. I never expected less. But the package and the gutting of modes and systems....huge fail.

It happens.

I hope SDS circles back on 22 and gives us all what we have come to expect. Total freedom to play our way and bring back critical franchise features that have been removed. RTTS was turned on it’s head. There was a time that offline mattered. There was a time Franchise mattered. That time has clearly passed.

Time will tell if it ever get’s better.

[JayhawkerStL]

Re: My little brother is this game’s target audience

Define kids? I am 56 and play DD the majority of the time, with a sliver of time spent in RTTS.

I am also on year two of my franchise in the most recent version of Out Of The Park Baseball so I am not some anti franchise guy.

That’s pretty much me. I play OOTP for sim franchise stuff, and console sports games for the fun of the action and in game strategy.

There has yet to be a single AAA game that does franchise well enough that I will sit on a couch and try to read stats. It’s just terrible compared to playing Strat, Diamond Mind and OOTP on PC.

So far, in 21, I kinda hate DD, Franchise is as bowering as I assumed it would be. But I love MTO, and was mostly of the mind I would hate it.

Honestly, SMB3 has the best console franchise mode, and that’s because they aren’t constrained to replicate labor agreements as though there is anything fun about them.

But I did get a game winning HR last night in my MTO game. Came in with a 1 run lead, but gave up runs in the 7th and 10th. I hit a two run shot in the bottom to win.

The late game decision making was fun. The tension of every pitch was there. The result had impact. It’s flipping great.

I’m still on the fence about this game, or going back to SMB3. But I’m enjoying it so far.

[JayhawkerStL]

Re: My little brother is this game’s target audience

Now this is load of horse ****. I say that in a light manner BTW as JayHawk you have always made great points about the industry throughout the years.

But several of us have had great rapport with developers from SDS (myself included) and they have moved on not because of toxic franchise whiners (yes there are plenty of those) but because of the trends in sports games and video games in general.

I have fully come to grips with it. It just sucks that it finally is affecting some of our enjoyment. I love this game. I think everyone knows that. It is my favrotire all time sports game bar none.

But things have changed.

At least we have MLB 20 to keep us very happy. And in the meantime I hope SDS can re-evaluate what we (offline franchise and RTTA players) really love about the series in addition to the outstanding gameplay. They had genre changing features (Y2Y, SOTS) that were removed and IMO never coming back.

I hope to hear otherwise as do many of us. Until then.....we are out. And that is ok.

But the point is.....it is not because of a handful of toxic whiners they ignore franchise mode. It simply because their is no financial incentive at all with the advent of micros transactions. I mean.....geez they even removed the ability to earn XP and stubs playing franchise the way I always have.....because some exploit it?

Awful bandaid. I loved earning XP and reward path packs on 20 (still earning them in fact) That was my pleasure with Diamond Dynasty.....not the actual playing of the mode (I am just no into it except maybe player path moment missions which are fun) but simply collecting cards.....playing the market to sell cards for stubs to turn around and use to purchase sponsorships and budget for franchise and equipment for my 1987 RTTS player I have had since MLB 18. Yeah I play RTTS too. I just never advertise it. That mode is a shadow of itself. I went over to a buddy’s house last night and played some 21. Man.....gameplay...great. I never expected less. But the package and the gutting of modes and systems....huge fail.

It happens.

I hope SDS circles back on 22 and gives us all what we have come to expect. Total freedom to play our way and bring back critical franchise features that have been removed. RTTS was turned on it’s head. There was a time that offline mattered. There was a time Franchise mattered. That time has clearly passed.

Time will tell if it ever get’s better.

That fair. But I’m not trying to answer why they changed focus. I’m trying to understand why they changed focus AND made substantial changes that only drove franchise players away.

And I think some people don’t understand toxic. The OP didn’t violate TOS, and wasn’t attacking people. It’s the complete nature of his comment.

And it is the franchise community alone that spend a ton of time, not just here, but on Reddit and elsewhere, trashing, not just a part of their customer base, but their core fans.

So, yes, they moved on because of trends. But because of the way the franchise community treats the people playing other modes, they give off the impression the game isn’t for them.

MLB the Show, despite the praises, has always had pretty crappy sales totals. EA sold far more copies with Triple Play and MVP before 2K screwed the whole market up.

The entire tone of the series has been a mistake. Not for those that love it, but for publishers that want sales and revenue, the tone told a ton of gamers to find fun else where. And the community embraced that, and we’ve all see it play out for years.

They are doing exactly what EA did with NHL. Make it about the play on the field, and the characters doing crazy things.

I do believe those actions are designed to drive off gamers that create a tone around those games that you have to be an Uber genius of the sport to “truly appreciate” the game.

That’s the tone 2K gamers got on the daily from the Show trolls. That we could enjoy our “kiddie game” while The Show was designed for more mature fans. That may have beaten 2K, but it never turned The Show into a game that sells particularly well.

And I don’t think you are a part of that tone. You love the game and franchise, but loving the game should mean loving watching others find their own ways to love the game. I think you you get that.

But I’ve never believed the devs and the Show community in general ever got that. It does seem like they get it now.

[hockeyyt988]

Re: My little brother is this game’s target audience

There are two HUGE problems with this.

First. You are a unicorn. Take a look at the downloaded rosters on The Show. The download totals show that the impact of even the most popular rosters have almost no impact on the community.

Second, one of the reasons publishers would rather cater to your brother and not you, and the same reason the devs don’t come here anymore is this exact toxic crap.

They would prefer a community that doesn’t encourage others to shun the people responsible for buying most of the games they sell.

If franchise guys could just enjoy their mode without attacking people that prefer others, they might invest more in the mode. But franchise gamers cost them sales, on purpose.

That’s the gist of your message. Shame people like your brother into not playing, so Sony caters to you.

I don't think the reason they don't develop franchise mode further is because "the community is toxic". Actually, I think the franchise community has been very patient. Many of us have seen marginal updates year-after-year and still buy the game (more on that in a second). The real reason is money. Money talks. If franchise community was toxic but the revenue was extremely high, they would put up with the toxic community because their wallets get bigger.

Also, I don't think think franchise guys are "hurting them in sales", that really doesn't make much sense. Think about it, the franchise community tends to pay $60 for the new game. They play it all year and don't pay a cent more till next release. Yeah, they might rant and holler about this or that (old guy at cloud) but from SDS perspective, they still ink out the pockets of the franchise crowd. SDS has one guy working on franchise (rumor has it), they aren't losing sales from franchise guys, they're realized that the real revenue is in the pay-to-play "freemium" modes (DD, card packs, etc.). I'm afraid that will be the case until they can find a way to incorporate micro transactions into franchise but that's another guy screaming at cloud moment waiting to happen.

The only way they start losing sales is the franchise crowd truly stops buying the game annually. Others have pointed out a 2 year development cycle. While I don't know all the legalities between publisher and sports leagues, from a business profit viewpoint, the reason this won't happen is because consumers buy the game every year.

Look at these boards when the new game comes out and you'll see people determined not to buy the game, then shortly after release, they'll say "I caved and bought the new game". I'm guilty as charge but to SDS (or any publisher), they just see dollars and decimals. I would ask "why" would they put more effort towards franchise? Until it's hurting them financially, it won't happen.

Now I'm not saying SDS sucks or anything, I think they've done a fantastic job with the MLB series. Yes, franchise has got stale, I'm just trying to say that from a business standpoint, there's a reason it's not seeing immense amount of improvement.

I think the gist of this thread isn't "if we were less toxic they would improve it" but rather that we know we're not the majority anymore so yes we might sound like old man screaming at clouds at times but I really don't think if we yelled at less clouds that all the sudden SDS would improve franchise mode.

If we stopped shelling out $60 bones every March/April then they might happen.

PS - I'm trying to hold my word. I haven't bought MLB 21 (PS4) and I don't think I will with what I'm seeing on these boards regarding franchise/roster/SOTS bugs. If I cave, I will be sure to tell everyone haha.

[Therebelyell626]

Re: My little brother is this game’s target audience

There are two HUGE problems with this.

First. You are a unicorn. Take a look at the downloaded rosters on The Show. The download totals show that the impact of even the most popular rosters have almost no impact on the community.

Second, one of the reasons publishers would rather cater to your brother and not you, and the same reason the devs don’t come here anymore is this exact toxic crap.

They would prefer a community that doesn’t encourage others to shun the people responsible for buying most of the games they sell.

If franchise guys could just enjoy their mode without attacking people that prefer others, they might invest more in the mode. But franchise gamers cost them sales, on purpose.

That’s the gist of your message. Shame people like your brother into not playing, so Sony caters to you.

Jayhawker, you seem like a good dude. But this entire post was Balognie and hyperbole my dude