Show Development Team - Take Notes from Madden

[countryboy]

Re: Show Development Team - Take Notes from Madden

We are applauding SDS for expanding rosters from 90 to 93 players?

Come on man (in my best ESPN Prime Time voice) [emoji12]


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I was pointing out improvements in '21 over '20 from my personal perspective.

You can see yourself out if you have nothing constructive to add.

[adamj2281]

Re: Show Development Team - Take Notes from Madden

I'll undoubtedly agree that the gameplay for The Show is superior to Madden, they have it dialed in on the batter/pitcher interaction and that's really the most important thing.

However - this was about Franchise, and Franchise only. You cannot tell me there have been meaningful improvements to Franchise since what......30 team control/manual injuries/90-man roster in like 2015 or so? The Depth Chart addition, while nice, isn't really a logical improvement, just a graphical one. The FA/trade logic is umm....no.

-GM Goals were added 5 years ago I think, hasn't been touched since.
-Scouting - when was it last tweaked?
-Salary - they went into some random weekly mode, then fixed it this year, however, teams still do not behave as they would in real life (The Rays just traded for Nolan Arenado in my franchise).

I will give them two saving graces - 30 team control (wchich corrected that Arenado trade) and Ridin's rosters.

[loungefly85]

Re: Show Development Team - Take Notes from Madden

Ok but at least they have an intent to deliver lot of franchise stuff. Will they deliver is another issue but at least they’re not just ignoring it like MLBTS who’s only focused on their cards based system. They’re killing the franchise and deviated from what made their success.

I'm cautiously optimistic about Madden but we'll see how it works IRL compared to "back of the box" statements.

But you're 100% about MLBTS. It's nothing but a glorified card collecting game now. This is the first video game of the "big 3" (Madden, NBA2K, The Show) that I gave up on after a day or two since I've been playing sports games.

[Armor and Sword]

Show Development Team - Take Notes from Madden

I was pointing out improvements in '21 over '20 from my personal perspective.



You can see yourself out if you have nothing constructive to add.

No man. I am here and not going anywhere. You seriously need to lighten up.

We have discussed for years The Show getting expanded rosters when they move to PS5 and they still may do it…but 90 to 93.

Again to consider this some worthy improvement?

Again come on man. And try to relax. I seriously can’t believe the hostility towards me…..because I am calling out the shortcomings of a video game.

Love The Show….but this year they came up short….for me.

Obviously not for you….and that is cool. But your hostile attitude is way out of line.

Consider the ignore function for me…because you are definitely on mine moving forward.

Take care.



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[countryboy]

Re: Show Development Team - Take Notes from Madden

No man. I am here and not going anywhere. You seriously need to lighten up.

We have discussed for years The Show getting expanded rosters when they move to PS5 and they still may do it…but 90 to 93.

Again to consider this some worthy improvement?

Again come on man.



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Lighten up?

Yes I consider it an improvement given that it allows 90 additional players to be signed in the offseason. One of the biggest drawbacks to franchise was the fact that good players sat in free agency, unsigned, because there wasn't enough roster spots for the AI to balance its roster between the levels of talent and prospects. Add to that the new budget system where teams are more adequately set up to have enough money in the offseason to spend, and its a step in the right direction of correcting an issue the mode has suffered from for years.

No its not the 100 to 125 that franchise vets want, nor that the mode likely needs, but it is an IMPROVEMENT over where it was in previous years.

If you don't agree, then cool, discuss why you disagree instead of making smartass comments in some pretend cool voice to look good amongst peers or whatever the hell it was you were trying to accomplish.

Its funny. You're quickly becoming the very poster you once loathed on the forums.

[Jeffrey Smith]

Re: Show Development Team - Take Notes from Madden

Baby steps to improve the mode are better than nothing, but I think the majority of franchise players want a overhaul of the mode. It needs more than a coat of paint.


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[Armor and Sword]

Show Development Team - Take Notes from Madden

Lighten up?

Yes I consider it an improvement given that it allows 90 additional players to be signed in the offseason. One of the biggest drawbacks to franchise was the fact that good players sat in free agency, unsigned, because there wasn't enough roster spots for the AI to balance its roster between the levels of talent and prospects. Add to that the new budget system where teams are more adequately set up to have enough money in the offseason to spend, and its a step in the right direction of correcting an issue the mode has suffered from for years.

No its not the 100 to 125 that franchise vets want, nor that the mode likely needs, but it is an IMPROVEMENT over where it was in previous years.

If you don't agree, then cool, discuss why you disagree instead of making smartass comments in some pretend cool voice to look good amongst peers or whatever the hell it was you were trying to accomplish.

Its funny. You're quickly becoming the very poster you once loathed on the forums.

I was trying to have some light fun with you CB someone who I have long respected as a great poster here. I was not trying to look cool at all.

I think you are completely mis-reading my intentions.

You should join me on a stream one time and chit chat….then you would maybe get to know me a little better and you would have probably laughed at my post knowing it was coming from a good place.

The cool thing about streaming is it has allowed me to actually get to know some really good dudes here at OS a little better.

I look at this as like a local watering hole where we are just shooting the proverbial ***t

Anyway no malicious intent was ever intended I was not trying to be a smart ***.

Just disagreeing with it being some big improvement. When it might be a small improvement…I can agree with that.

My real issue this cycle goes into the gameplay itself. Because quite frankly….I was never all hissy and up in arms about franchise mode on The Show. It functions quite well for me using 30 team control.

But I think we all hope 22 will have that big next gen leap in terms of franchise mode. But there are gameplay things that need to be addressed now too. And for me I hope they can right some wrongs that I feel they made.

Not everyone agrees with me on that…and that’s ok too. Some guys love the game.

I remember you loathed 17 and stuck with 16.

That is where I am with 21 and I have stuck with 20.


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[Funkycorm]

Re: Show Development Team - Take Notes from Madden

I disagree with the idea that franchise mode is worse in '21 than it was in '20.

There are things in '21 that is an improvement over previous titles:

* Rosters expanded to 93
* Better budget system
* AI teams signing free agents during the season to fulfill needs
* Trades are better imo
* I think the AI roster management has been better

Are there shortcomings still? Absolutely, but this year it feels as though changes were made to lay a foundation for bigger and better things to come versus just doctoring what was there.

I do think there are some counter points to be made here. And my opinions will be different. To each their own.

And this is from someone who has test simmed 10 years in twice now before setting the game down.

1. Rosters from 90 to 93: While technically an improvement, it only partially fixes the amount of high end players in free agency. It seems to be a magical cut off off 80 or more. A lot of players at the league average of 75 don't get touched and ignored even though they would easily fit into starting spots across the league.

2. Trade logic: While the balance trades are gone and you can minimize weird CPU to CPU trades keeping the slider below 5, there are still logic issues. Here are 2 examples. First, you can easily trade for Tatis with one A and 2 C or D prospects and the Padres are happy to take the deal. Second, I saw Houston off a world series appearance after signing Bregman to a 7 year extension a year earlier trade him to the Yankees for a low B and mid C prospect. The Astros would not lower their contender status with a trade like this and with money in their budget to spare. This was all CPU.

3. Budget logic: While there is some slight improvement in this for ease of understanding there are a few things here. First they took away a tool we had in extra budget. Yes you can make it up with sponsorships but it is not the same. Next I can resign a player rated 87 overall, 23 years old coming off a rookie of the year win with 1.000 service time to a 2 year/$400k total extension. This is not realistic at all. Next, you see players like Soto hit free agency and go to teams like the Royals for $18M a year in their prime. Next you see teams like TB spend big on 3 max player contracts. Again something that is not realistic. While the budget system is easier to understand, it is not truly improved.

4. Roster management and free agency kind of go into the above.


I will say they have tried to make improvements, but contract logic and trade logic are not substantially improved from last year and actually seem worse at times.

Now as for the original post taking a page from EA, I do not have my hands on the game but I know there have been improvements to franchise but like SDS the execution will have to be there. SDS did not nail the execution of off field stuff and will need to work on it. Time will tell with Madden but until EA proves they can execute, I don't think SDS should pull ideas from Madden.

[strosdood]

Re: Show Development Team - Take Notes from Madden

I was trying to have some light fun with you CB someone who I have long respected as a great poster here. I was not trying to look cool at all.

I think you are completely mis-reading my intentions.

You should join me on a stream one time and chit chat….then you would maybe get to know me a little better and you would have probably laughed at my post knowing it was coming from a good place.

The cool thing about streaming is it has allowed me to actually get to know some really good dudes here at OS a little better.

I look at this as like a local watering hole where we are just shooting the proverbial ***t

Anyway no malicious intent was ever intended I was not trying to be a smart ***.

Just disagreeing with it being some big improvement. When it might be a small improvement…I can agree with that.

My real issue this cycle goes into the gameplay itself. Because quite frankly….I was never all hissy and up in arms about franchise mode on The Show. It functions quite well for me using 30 team control.

But I think we all hope 22 will have that big next gen leap in terms of franchise mode. But there are gameplay things that need to be addressed now too. And for me I hope they can right some wrongs that I feel they made.

Not everyone agrees with me on that…and that’s ok too. Some guys love the game.

I remember you loathed 17 and stuck with 16.

That is where I am with 21 and I have stuck with 20.


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You’ve stated several times you’re not playing 21 this year, why even involve yourself in threads about 21? You open yourself up for these types of interactions as you’ve been very vocal you were upset how SDS handled the next gen transition year……people automatically assume u are being condescending when u talk about 21 now 🤷🏻*♂️


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[Armor and Sword]

Show Development Team - Take Notes from Madden

You’ve stated several times you’re not playing 21 this year, why even involve yourself in threads about 21? You open yourself up for these types of interactions as you’ve been very vocal you were upset how SDS handled the next gen transition year……people automatically assume u are being condescending when u talk about 21 now 🤷🏻*♂️


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I actually put some real time in with 21 and I gotta tell ya if you have a dissenting view it should not be poo pooed on at every turn. But this thread was about SDS’s shortcomings. I am staying out of threads where there is a love fest as I do not share that same love and am not looking to be a doosh.

As far as my post in this thread….it was taken the wrong way…..I can’t say anything more on it that I already have not.

I should not have to be ready for out of line “get outta here” retribution for a dissenting opinion. That is not what a public forum is all about.

I get the “if you have nothing constructive to add” stuff. Again I thought a lot of us have known each other for years….guess not.

I am not getting bent out of shape, but it was a little “whoa” moment for me. Yes I am not a fan of 21 but I am objective and have been a long time fan of The Show.

I don’t think they get a pass with the moves they made this cycle. And yeah have been vocal about it.

It is a huge bummer not only for me but a lot of other Show fans this year.

I guess I will compare it to a crappy season of your favorite TV Show….they jumped the shark.

And the OP and point of this thread was about franchise mode. IMO they did nothing substantial at all that justified some of the design decisions they made.

Other opinions will differ and that is ok. I thought I was having fun with another long time member and he took it the wrong way.

If it came from some random poster with little to no history….I would not have batted an eye. But CB is long time Show guy like me and I was surprised he got….for lack of a better term “uptight” about some fun I was having in pointing out one of his bullet points.

No harm no foul.


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[countryboy]

Re: Show Development Team - Take Notes from Madden

I do think there are some counter points to be made here. And my opinions will be different. To each their own.

And this is from someone who has test simmed 10 years in twice now before setting the game down.

First and foremost before going further I want to reiterate that I only stated those bullet point items were things I deemed to be an improvement from '20, as an explanation for my disagreement to the idea that '21 is worse than '20 in terms of franchise mode. None of the bullet points I listed were mentioned to be taken as they are perfect and solve all the problems franchise mode, or the individual sections themselves have.

1. Rosters from 90 to 93: While technically an improvement, it only partially fixes the amount of high end players in free agency. It seems to be a magical cut off off 80 or more. A lot of players at the league average of 75 don't get touched and ignored even though they would easily fit into starting spots across the league.

I haven't gone through an offseason just yet, but have seen others that have. And yes, there are still good players in free agency because of the limited roster spots, but the fact that we have an additional 90 roster signings per year, does help lessen those in the free agent pool, even if by a fraction which is an improvement over previous years. And the fact the CPU will sign FA during the season also helps ease the frustration of these talented players being left unsigned.

2. Trade logic: While the balance trades are gone and you can minimize weird CPU to CPU trades keeping the slider below 5, there are still logic issues. Here are 2 examples. First, you can easily trade for Tatis with one A and 2 C or D prospects and the Padres are happy to take the deal. Second, I saw Houston off a world series appearance after signing Bregman to a 7 year extension a year earlier trade him to the Yankees for a low B and mid C prospect. The Astros would not lower their contender status with a trade like this and with money in their budget to spare. This was all CPU.

I've mentioned in tbarnes thread about a head scratcher or two that I've seen in regards to trades, but my experience, as limited as its been (one trade deadline), its been better than years before. I haven't attempted to trade for Tatis, but that is an example of the logic needing to be better.

For myself, I traded for Max Scherzer in my franchise. 36 years old, pitching well (all-star) and final year of contract. I tried various combinations to get Scherzer because I thought the asking price of the Nats was high, but they wouldn't budge. I parted with Harrison Bader and high potential players because the Nats wouldn't take less. I saw the cpu make some solid trades as well as one or two that had me scratching my head. From my experience, its better but agree some trades baffle me.

3. Budget logic: While there is some slight improvement in this for ease of understanding there are a few things here. First they took away a tool we had in extra budget. Yes you can make it up with sponsorships but it is not the same. Next I can resign a player rated 87 overall, 23 years old coming off a rookie of the year win with 1.000 service time to a 2 year/$400k total extension. This is not realistic at all. Next, you see players like Soto hit free agency and go to teams like the Royals for $18M a year in their prime. Next you see teams like TB spend big on 3 max player contracts. Again something that is not realistic. While the budget system is easier to understand, it is not truly improved.

Again, I haven't experienced an offseason, but from what I've seen in FA signings during the year, trades, and what others have posted/said, I believe its better than previous years. The fact that teams are more adequately suited to have the budget/means to make signings is a plus versus previous seasons. I'll know this weekend how well its done as my season is about to conclude.

Like I originally said, there are still shortcomings with the mode that need TLC ASAP, but this year does feel, at least to me, that a solid foundation is being laid so that bigger and better things (logic) can be implemented in future installments. And what has been done this year, feels like an improvement over '20.

[Funkycorm]

Re: Show Development Team - Take Notes from Madden

First and foremost before going further I want to reiterate that I only stated those bullet point items were things I deemed to be an improvement from '20, as an explanation for my disagreement to the idea that '21 is worse than '20 in terms of franchise mode. None of the bullet points I listed were mentioned to be taken as they are perfect and solve all the problems franchise mode, or the individual sections themselves have.



I haven't gone through an offseason just yet, but have seen others that have. And yes, there are still good players in free agency because of the limited roster spots, but the fact that we have an additional 90 roster signings per year, does help lessen those in the free agent pool, even if by a fraction which is an improvement over previous years. And the fact the CPU will sign FA during the season also helps ease the frustration of these talented players being left unsigned.



I've mentioned in tbarnes thread about a head scratcher or two that I've seen in regards to trades, but my experience, as limited as its been (one trade deadline), its been better than years before. I haven't attempted to trade for Tatis, but that is an example of the logic needing to be better.

For myself, I traded for Max Scherzer in my franchise. 36 years old, pitching well (all-star) and final year of contract. I tried various combinations to get Scherzer because I thought the asking price of the Nats was high, but they wouldn't budge. I parted with Harrison Bader and high potential players because the Nats wouldn't take less. I saw the cpu make some solid trades as well as one or two that had me scratching my head. From my experience, its better but agree some trades baffle me.



Again, I haven't experienced an offseason, but from what I've seen in FA signings during the year, trades, and what others have posted/said, I believe its better than previous years. The fact that teams are more adequately suited to have the budget/means to make signings is a plus versus previous seasons. I'll know this weekend how well its done as my season is about to conclude.

Like I originally said, there are still shortcomings with the mode that need TLC ASAP, but this year does feel, at least to me, that a solid foundation is being laid so that bigger and better things (logic) can be implemented in future installments. And what has been done this year, feels like an improvement over '20.

I agree that the mode needs TLC.

Part of the budget fix though has been to lower the demands for many players and there is a discrepancy between what pitchers and what hitters are valued at during contract time and during trades.

The rosters increase to 93 did help a little but there is still the bigger problem of players rated 79 still sitting their untouched and all during the season when there are spots that they would be improvements over the current starter in the lineup or rotation.

Tatis was just an example. I tried others after that after someone mentioned it could be done.

As far as contract and budget signings, I have seen big issues here. I can build a team of all 85+ plus overall players all in renewal or arbitration with maybe a few free agents to supplement and my payroll is $50m. I can sign players in renewal years to 200k per year. Though under team control and renewal, most of those guys, especially if they are rated 85+ should be asking and being paid at least $1m. In the past, players requested more reasonable salaries, some excessive in free agency. But not this year. I can sign players to contracts that are unrealistic which is allowing the CPU to better budget because they get 90+ overall players at better rates and have MLB players in the renewal period getting 200k per year.

Honestly I hated the morale system but it at least kept player salaries more realistic.

In the end we won't sway the other so let's agree to disagree here.

[countryboy]

Re: Show Development Team - Take Notes from Madden

Wasn't trying to sway you or anyone, just elaborating on my perspective, since it was brought into discussion.

[Fuimus Troes]

Re: Show Development Team - Take Notes from Madden

Some things to consider...

SDS does way more each year to improve TS than EA does with Madden. Unfortunately for franchise fans, it's almost all in Diamond Dynasty. Love DD or hate it, it's a labor of love for SDS. I play it a lot, but mainly because Franchise and RTTS are not good.

Franchise and RTTS have been disrespected by SDS. Trades are atrocious -- you can literally add a D potential player in the 50's to top off trades for superstars. That never would have occurred in previous years. No meaningful additions/upgrades have happened in franchise in years that would appeal to franchise fanatics. Things to make the mode "more approachable" don't count for us.

Scouting and generated prospects are beyond a joke. Arguably the CORE of any good franchise mode -- longevity depends on this -- has been IGNORED for years.

Lastly, something simple like adding a script that says "You can't trade ______ because he was recently signed" -- how hard can that be?! Instead, we still get "We're not interested in that trade." STILL.

Shame on Madden for needing to be shamed on social media to change, but it's clear that 22 will represent a huge leap forward for its franchise while The Show's mode has been pathetic now for years on end.

[Funkycorm]

Re: Show Development Team - Take Notes from Madden

Some things to consider...

SDS does way more each year to improve TS than EA does with Madden. Unfortunately for franchise fans, it's almost all in Diamond Dynasty. Love DD or hate it, it's a labor of love for SDS. I play it a lot, but mainly because Franchise and RTTS are not good.

Franchise and RTTS have been disrespected by SDS. Trades are atrocious -- you can literally add a D potential player in the 50's to top off trades for superstars. That never would have occurred in previous years. No meaningful additions/upgrades have happened in franchise in years that would appeal to franchise fanatics. Things to make the mode "more approachable" don't count for us.

Scouting and generated prospects are beyond a joke. Arguably the CORE of any good franchise mode -- longevity depends on this -- has been IGNORED for years.

Lastly, something simple like adding a script that says "You can't trade ______ because he was recently signed" -- how hard can that be?! Instead, we still get "We're not interested in that trade." STILL.

Shame on Madden for needing to be shamed on social media to change, but it's clear that 22 will represent a huge leap forward for its franchise while The Show's mode has been pathetic now for years on end.

So I don't disagree with you as you can read above.

But the one thing I will say about your observations is about the generated prospects. After simming 20 seasons amongst 2 franchises I will say that they did improve slightly here. There are more serviceable 1b, 3b, and C in draft classes not rated in the 40s overall to start. It is not fixed but improved. But there are still too few power hitters generated, especially in the corner outfielders spots.

Even though I have moved on from 21, this is still a slight improvement though not enough in my opinion. Scouting and progression need reworked but the prospect generation is the one thing that improved slightly. Though massive editing is still needed.