"Sweeper" vs. Slider vs. Sweeping Curveball

[CBoller1331]

Re: "Sweeper" vs. Slider vs. Sweeping Curveball

From the gameplay videos I've seen on YouTube, it appears that this year SDS has assigned the slurve to guys who throw what is now considered a "sweeper", and have kept the regular slider for guys who throw more of a traditional "gyro" slider.

I kind of like that approach, as the slurve has a bit more of that "frisbee" action that you see from the big sweepers compared to the traditional slider

[DonkeyJote]

Re: "Sweeper" vs. Slider vs. Sweeping Curveball

From the gameplay videos I've seen on YouTube, it appears that this year SDS has assigned the slurve to guys who throw what is now considered a "sweeper", and have kept the regular slider for guys who throw more of a traditional "gyro" slider.

I kind of like that approach, as the slurve has a bit more of that "frisbee" action that you see from the big sweepers compared to the traditional slider

Eh, the Slurve has the loopier action of a sweeper, but has a ton more downward movement. Sweepers don't emphasize vertical break, that's why some guys throw them up in the zone more than they would a slider, slurve, or curve.

The Slurve has also been used for guys that throw a Curve. Charlie Morton, for example, who doesn't throw a slider or sweeper, but rather a traditional curve. Or Kyle Wright, who Savant has throwing a Knuckle Curve, but SDS gives him a Slurve instead. So a Slurve is being used as both a type of Curveball with downward break, and a Sweeper which isn't supposed to have a ton of downward break.

I think they've used the Knuckle Curve in place of a gyro slider for some guys in the past too; guys who get a ton of downward movement on their sliders.

It's the same approach they've mostly taken the last couple years. It's probably the best approach they can take with their available tools, but they really need better tools.

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[Ghost Of The Year]

Re: "Sweeper" vs. Slider vs. Sweeping Curveball

So the sweeper is definitely in as a new pitch for 25?
I wonder if they had to get rid of another pitch to fit the sweeper in. They should probably remove the running fastball.

Eh, the Slurve has the loopier action of a sweeper, but has a ton more downward movement. Sweepers don't emphasize vertical break, that's why some guys throw them up in the zone more than they would a slider, slurve, or curve.

The Slurve has also been used for guys that throw a Curve. Charlie Morton, for example, who doesn't throw a slider or sweeper, but rather a traditional curve. Or Kyle Wright, who Savant has throwing a Knuckle Curve, but SDS gives him a Slurve instead. So a Slurve is being used as both a type of Curveball with downward break, and a Sweeper which isn't supposed to have a ton of downward break.

I think they've used the Knuckle Curve in place of a gyro slider for some guys in the past too; guys who get a ton of downward movement on their sliders.

It's the same approach they've mostly taken the last couple years. It's probably the best approach they can take with their available tools, but they really need better tools.

Yeah, it's like they need a screwdriver but all they have is a hammer. They don't even use the Running FB this year, but there it sits. If I remember right no less an authority as Neyer-James Guide to Pitchers doesn't even so much as briefly mention it. I need to pull that book out of storage and brush up on my French, so to speak.

[CBoller1331]

Re: "Sweeper" vs. Slider vs. Sweeping Curveball

So the sweeper is definitely in as a new pitch for 25?
I wonder if they had to get rid of another pitch to fit the sweeper in. They should probably remove the running fastball.

Yeah, it's like they need a screwdriver but all they have is a hammer. They don't even use the Running FB this year, but there it sits. If I remember right no less an authority as Neyer-James Guide to Pitchers doesn't even so much as briefly mention it. I need to pull that book out of storage and brush up on my French, so to speak.

Yeah as far as I'm aware there aren't any pitchers out there that claim to throw a "Running fastball." It could be used to represent pitchers whose natural arm slot/arm action lead to arm side movement on their 4-seam, but like you pointed out I don't think SDS applied the pitch to anyone in the roster.

[bcruise]

Re: "Sweeper" vs. Slider vs. Sweeping Curveball

This 100%.
Wishful thinking here: Hope they integrate the MLB Gameday 3D animations, that could solve a lot of pitching motion/batting stance issues.
The pitching motions are stiff. And MLB has animations recorded for every play that happens in a MLB or AAA stadium.
Plus:
+ Remove outlier and scale all fastball velo (sinkers, seamers, cutters, running fbs) to 100 mph.
+ Tweak all changeups on the same velo ceiling as sliders, while keeping the same changeup floor (70-92 mph instead of 88-70 mph).
+Give not scanned/cap pitchers the same velocity ceilings/floors as face scanned pitchers.
+Make 104+ mph a thing outside of the Satchel Paige storyline.
+Buff forkball horizontal movement.
+A super stretch: a robust create a pitch based off how editing a face works, like editing the grips and stuff… and like a pitch motion editor that works the same way as editing batting stances.

It would be truly sick if they added a real pitch speed option, it would literally change the game.

Man, I could go on and on and on and on about this.

Not to sidetrack this discussion (it's a great topic), but just one note on this - those aren't animations - at least not ones that were mo-capped in a studio or created from scratch. They're actual player movements tracked by cameras inside the stadium and converted to CG. It's pretty amazing tech.

What is Gameday 3D?

Gameday 3D uses the Hawk-Eye high-speed cameras installed in every MLB ballpark and Statcast's tracking data to recreate the game, live as it happens, in a homegrown 3D environment.

Every play is tracked in full -- from the speed and movement of the pitch, to the trajectory of the hit, to the position and movement of the fielders, to the runners' paths around the bases -- and rendered into a 3D version of the game on MLB.com and in the MLB App.

The goal is to create a more immersive experience of the game. Gameday 3D features everything from real MLB ballpark layouts to player avatars wearing the teams' actual uniforms.

It almost looks like MLB The Show -- but Gameday 3D is using the real game-tracking data to represent what's actually happening on the field.

https://www.mlb.com/news/mlb-gameday-3d-guide

It does make one wonder how far we are from getting video game animations that are directly sourced from those on-field player movements, but we probably aren't there yet in making everything look seamless. There's actually a lot of jank in Gameday 3D, impressive as the tech behind it is.

[Ghost Of The Year]

Re: "Sweeper" vs. Slider vs. Sweeping Curveball

Yeah as far as I'm aware there aren't any pitchers out there that claim to throw a "Running fastball." It could be used to represent pitchers whose natural arm slot/arm action lead to arm side movement on their 4-seam, but like you pointed out I don't think SDS applied the pitch to anyone in the roster.

I was very pleased to see the devs removed the unutilized Running Fastball and replaced it with the Sweeper.

[InASimulation]

Re: "Sweeper" vs. Slider vs. Sweeping Curveball

Not to sidetrack this discussion (it's a great topic), but just one note on this - those aren't animations - at least not ones that were mo-capped in a studio or created from scratch. They're actual player movements tracked by cameras inside the stadium and converted to CG. It's pretty amazing tech.

It does make one wonder how far we are from getting video game animations that are directly sourced from those on-field player movements, but we probably aren't there yet in making everything look seamless. There's actually a lot of jank in Gameday 3D, impressive as the tech behind it is.

I meant finding a way to turn what's captured from games into animations. But yea, exactly. Taking that and cleaning it up would be monumental.

[InASimulation]

Re: "Sweeper" vs. Slider vs. Sweeping Curveball

I was very pleased to see the devs removed the unutilized Running Fastball and replaced it with the Sweeper.

Hate this, 4-seamers and Running Fastballs in this game behave differently.

A 4-seamer with high break mimics carry/ride fastballs while 'Running' is the best way to achieve 4-seamers with a lot of natural run.

So now if a pitcher with a lot of run on his fastball has a high break rating and the pitch can only be a 4-seamer... it feels like he's throwing a pitch he doesn't throw at all, kind of like when the game has regular sliders with 99 break.

As a pitch editor, trying to recreate 4-seamers with run got harder for no reason. The thought of turning 4-seamers into 2-seamers makes me sick. They could've just removed the palmball instead. Or better yet, not removed any pitches and just added the sweeper.

Oh well, done complaining now.

[CBoller1331]

Re: "Sweeper" vs. Slider vs. Sweeping Curveball

Hate this, 4-seamers and Running Fastballs in this game behave differently.

A 4-seamer with high break mimics carry/ride fastballs while 'Running' is the best way to achieve 4-seamers with a lot of natural run.

So now if a pitcher with a lot of run on his fastball has a high break rating and the pitch can only be a 4-seamer... it feels like he's throwing a pitch he doesn't throw at all, kind of like when the game has regular sliders with 99 break.

As a pitch editor, trying to recreate 4-seamers with run got harder for no reason. The thought of turning 4-seamers into 2-seamers makes me sick. They could've just removed the palmball instead. Or better yet, not removed any pitches and just added the sweeper.

Oh well, done complaining now.

I'd really love for them to give 2 dimensional pitch break ratings - i.e. vertical break and horizontal break. Would be a game changer to better capture guys with unique shapes

[Cod]

Re: "Sweeper" vs. Slider vs. Sweeping Curveball

I'm glad to see the sweeper made it into the game, but the pitch is not model very well right now. There's way to much vertical break which makes the pitch more like a slurve in game.