Does The Show PREDETERMINE HRs or DISTANCE on ball contact?

[Skyboxer]

Re: Does The Show PREDETERMINE HRs or DISTANCE on ball contact?

IMO, I feel walks are a little to hard to get by the user and its realitively easy not to walk batters when the user is pitching. I feel that the quantity of hits and extra base hits are very accurately represented in the game, but walks are not. Because of this I'm not walking as much as I would like, and scoring fewer runs as a result.

I feel that the Discipline stat should be modified in the future to allow MLB players that actually walk a lot in real life to have some advantage within the game to draw more walks.

I don't agree at all. I was able to garner walks regularly including 4 pitch walks... and as far as pitching, you have to be willing to walk batters to throw walks.
To many gamers get 3 balls and then they totally stop painting the edges and instead throw one well inside the K zone.

No matter the count I throw to the edges etc.. UNLESS I'm waaay up and just want them to get ball in play. I've thrown many walks in my time with The Show 09 .

[Skyboxer]

Re: Does The Show PREDETERMINE HRs or DISTANCE on ball contact?

I would have to disagree. Walks are always going to be a subjective subject when they are left up to the player.

You have to work the count and earn walks in this game just as you would have to in the big leagues, and to me, it nets realistic results when I do so.

As for pitching, again, if you are always in the strike zone, you are going either get outs or get lit up, usually the latter. Thus you need to be more mindful and sometimes pitch careful enough and actually walk a few guys.

I can not believe for the life of me, that people are actually not walking enough batters (in 09), at the same time not getting lit up on a decent difficulty setting. You play on a proper difficulty setting, you get lit up if you are around the strike zone too much.

Totally Agree...
didn't see your post until writing my reply. When I read the original post I wanted to get something said right away.....

[Brian SCEA]

Re: Does The Show PREDETERMINE HRs or DISTANCE on ball contact?

Great questions. I don't want to turn this into a Q&A session because of time constraints, but I'd be happy to cover more of these topics after the game ships. It's more important what '10 actually does in your hands than what I can say about it anyways.

The most important attribute for home runs is not discipline, either in-game or in real life. The most important attribute in real life is actually power.

To illustrate, let me suggest that there is no contradiction that Ichiro is better at drawing walks but Adam Dunn will draw more of them. In other words, if you throw a ball outside of the strike zone at both Ichiro and Dunn, stats year after year prove that Dunn is way more likely to swing and chase it (and also miss). Yet Dunn actually draws double the walks as Ichiro, and the reason has to do with the fact that he simply sees way more balls than Ichiro.

The funny thing with walks is you just need a few more balls to get a lot more walks. For example, if a pitcher threw 58 balls instead of 50 balls (16% increase), he might increase his walks given up from 3 to 4 (33% increase).

The same can be said for a small increase in user skill. If you're not drawing walks, look at the PB Analysis after a game. You're definitely getting plenty of ABs where the pitcher threw you four or five balls. The only way someone might not see this is if they aren't even letting the pitcher throw them four pitches (i.e. swinging at every pitch and staying early in the count). In that case, there are bigger challenges than not drawing walks and this is an occasional problem even for MLB teams.

Back to the comparison..if Ichiro were pitched exactly the same way as Dunn or Dunn pitched exactly the same way as Ichiro, Ichiro would simply draw more walks than Dunn. Stats show Ichiro has no trouble taking balls when he gets them, whereas Dunn does in comparison.

So why do pitchers pitch around Dunn? It's all about his swing power. If he even gets lucky he can hit a home run. So it's no coincidence that he strikes out a lot and makes lots of bad contact, precisely because he's focused on swinging hard rather than well. Ironically, both Dunn and the pitcher have played their strategies to increase his walks for opposing reasons.

The fact is, whether or not you draw walks has less to do with how well you see and take pitches than how much of a power threat you are against the pitcher. There are several proofs of this based on stats. You can choose to consider intentional walks or not (which is one factor in Dunn's numbers) but the result is the same.

That said there is such as thing as skill in taking pitches, however secondary to power. That's where your DIS attribute matters. The attribute is actually compared against PWR to determine your skill at checking your swings, meaning Ichiro checks his swing better than Dunn. Visually this affects the borderline check cases in '10 and it matters in the long run. Although 09 did this under the hood, the new system should make it immediately obvious of improved animations.

This comparison is in no way a criticism of Dunn's approach, because it works. In fact if Ichiro and Dunn were on the same team they'd complement each other very well because Ichiro's high OBB would translate into a lot of RBIs for Dunn.

Pitchers pitch around power hitters, and people have observed this in the game through the years. This one should be obvious. Likewise, there are many other tendencies that happen naturally both for the CPU and user. Batters who don't strike out will rarely miss and can have long at bats even with 2 strikes, and people have observed this both CPU and user. Some hitters try to pull the ball as a tradeoff between power (ex. home runs) versus contact, and even the user is at an advantage using this strategy with the right hitters. Although some tendencies are not as easy to notice, unfortunately this should never a reason for the game to exaggerate them just for show.

There are other tendencies I've listed in lots of older posts, but certainly some people are not going to see them. However you can definitely prove some of them one way or another. Put Dunn and Ichiro on the same team and run the game over and over, and see who draws more walks and who is better at taking balls when thrown. It should even be possible for some people to play the game and observe this point if they know all the hitters.

By the way, I guess this point got lost in old posts but although in '09 the strike zone is displayed according to MLB rules the average umpire actually gives you about an inch and a half off the top (some more, some less). It's hard to notice because people don't take a lot of pitches there out of fear of a strike. Although there are some improvements in '10 I think it's better to see that in action by trying it out.

Back to walks. It shouldn't be a surprise that some people can draw walks and others can't. Drawing walks takes both skill and concentration, whereas not drawing walks takes zero skill or concentration. I have trouble drawing walks when I'm playing casually, but when I play for real I have no trouble drawing them. And if you followed the Ichiro vs. Dunn comparison and have noticed that pitchers pitch around power hitters, clearly you'll see that the right hitters will draw more walks than others. This is regardless of if you are user or CPU.

It's also important to play on at least All Star if not Veteran difficulty because in Rookie the pitcher will go easy on you on purpose. For example in Rookie you can swing at every single pitch and the pitcher will not punish you by pitching around. It will do this 1/2 effectively in Veteran (i.e. he's imitating what a beginner player might do), but it will never go easy on you in Allstar and above. That said, if someone can't draw walks by a big margin but wants to, that's something the game can't easily solve and still stay a sim. One thing you can do in 09 is adjust the two sliders related to accuracy.

Bottom line, as far as power and walks is concerned the game should choose to play baseball like real life instead of popular conception. This is why power is more important for drawing walks than even discipline skill. It does mean these questions will always be asked and things in doubt, but fortunately we can always put it in next year's strategy guide.

That's really all the time I have until the game ships, but I think the game will explain things much better than words can.

[Knight165]

Re: Does The Show PREDETERMINE HRs or DISTANCE on ball contact?

Great questions. I don't want to turn this into a Q&A session because of time constraints, but I'd be happy to cover more of these topics after the game ships. It's more important what '10 actually does in your hands than what I can say about it anyways.

The most important attribute for home runs is not discipline, either in-game or in real life. The most important attribute in real life is actually power.

To illustrate, let me suggest that there is no contradiction that Ichiro is better at drawing walks but Adam Dunn will draw more of them. In other words, if you throw a ball outside of the strike zone at both Ichiro and Dunn, stats year after year prove that Dunn is way more likely to swing and chase it (and also miss). Yet Dunn actually draws double the walks as Ichiro, and the reason has to do with the fact that he simply sees way more balls than Ichiro.

The funny thing with walks is you just need a few more balls to get a lot more walks. For example, if a pitcher threw 58 balls instead of 50 balls (16% increase), he might increase his walks given up from 3 to 4 (33% increase).

The same can be said for a small increase in user skill. If you're not drawing walks, look at the PB Analysis after a game. You're definitely getting plenty of ABs where the pitcher threw you four or five balls. The only way someone might not see this is if they aren't even letting the pitcher throw them four pitches (i.e. swinging at every pitch and staying early in the count). In that case, there are bigger challenges than not drawing walks, and this is an occasional problem even for MLB teams.

Back to the comparison..if Ichiro were pitched exactly the same way as Dunn or Dunn pitched exactly the same way as Ichiro, Ichiro would simply draw more walks than Dunn. Stats show Ichiro has no trouble taking balls when he gets them, whereas Dunn does in comparison.

So why do pitchers pitch around Dunn? It's all about his swing power. If he even gets lucky he can hit a home run - and arguably that's what a lot of his HRs are! So it's no coincidence that he strikes out a lot and makes lots of bad contact precisely because focused on swinging hard rather than well. Ironically, both Dunn and the pitcher have played their strategies to increase his walks for opposing reasons.

The fact is, whether or not you draw walks has much less to do with how well you see and take pitches than how much of a power threat you are against the pitcher. There are several proofs of this based on stats.

That said there is such as thing as skill in taking pitches this example also shows, however secondary. That's where your DIS attribute matters. The attribute is actually compared against PWR to determine your skill at checking your swings, meaning Ichiro checks his swing better than Dunn. Visually this affects the borderline cases and it matters in the long run.

This comparison is in no way a criticism of Dunn's approach, because it works. In fact if Ichiro and Dunn were on the same team they'd complement each other very well because Ichiro's high OBB would translate into a lot of RBIs for Dunn.

Pithcers pitch around power hitters, and people have observed through the years. This one should be obvious. Likewise, there are many other tendencies that happen naturally both for the CPU and user. Batters who don't strike out will rarely miss and can have long at bats even with 2 strikes, and people have observed this both CPU and user. Some hitters try to pull the ball as a tradeoff between power (ex. home runs) versus contact, and even the user is at an advantage using this strategy with the right hitters. Although some tendencies are not as easy to notice, unfortunately this should never a reason for the game to exaggerate them just for show.

There are other tendencies I've listed in lots of older posts, but certainly some people are not going to see them. However you can definitely prove some of them one way or another. Put Dunn and Ichiro on the same team and run the game over and over, and see who draws more walks and who is better at taking balls when thrown. It should even be possible for some people to play the game and observe this point if they know all the hitters.

By the way, I guess this point got lost in old posts but even in '09 the strike zone is displayed according to MLB rules but the average umpire gives you about an inch and a half off the top (some more, some less). It's hard to notice because people don't take a lot of pitches there out of fear of a strike. Although there are some improvements in '10 I think it's better to see that in action.

Back to walks. It shouldn't be a surprise that some people can draw walks and others can't. Drawing walks takes both skill and concentration, whereas not drawing walks takes zero skill and concentration. I have trouble drawing walks when I'm playing casually, but when I play for real I have no trouble drawing them. And if you followed the Ichiro vs. Dunn comparison and have noticed that pitchers pitch around power hitters, clearly you'll see that the right hitters will draw more walks than others. This is regardless of if you are user or CPU.

It's also important to play on at least All Star if not Veteran difficulty because in Rookie the pitcher will go easy on you on purpose. For example in Rookie you can swing at every single pitch and the pitcher will not punish you by pitching around. It will do this 1/2 effectively in Veteran (i.e. he's imitating what a beginner player might do), but it will never go easy on you in Allstar and above. That said, if someone can't draw walks by a big margin but wants to, that's something the game can't easily solve and still stay a sim. One thing you can do in 09 is adjust the two sliders related to accuracy.

Bottom line, as far as power and walks is concerned the game should chooses to play baseball like real life instead of popular conception. This is why power is more important for drawing walks than even discipline skill. It does mean these questions will always be asked and things in doubt, but fortunately we can always put it in next year's strategy guide.

That's really all the time I have until the game ships, but I think the game will explain things much better than words can.

M.K.
Knight165

[Knight165]

Re: Does The Show PREDETERMINE HRs or DISTANCE on ball contact?

Just a little FYI


I am SO glad that Brian works on "our" game.

M.K.
Knight165

[JT30]

Re: Does The Show PREDETERMINE HRs or DISTANCE on ball contact?

Just a little FYI


I am SO glad that Brian works on "our" game.

M.K.
Knight165

hahah you got that right. That picture of the exploding head is hilarious.. lol

[42]

Re: Does The Show PREDETERMINE HRs or DISTANCE on ball contact?

Just a little FYI


I am SO glad that Brian works on "our" game.

M.K.
Knight165

Cheers to that!

[EnigmaNemesis]

Re: Does The Show PREDETERMINE HRs or DISTANCE on ball contact?

Just a little FYI


I am SO glad that Brian works on "our" game.

M.K.
Knight165

Bat speed is key, but that would also be done by a shorter compact stroke and power.

[bcruise]

Re: Does The Show PREDETERMINE HRs or DISTANCE on ball contact?

M.K.
Knight165

We warned 'em, didn't we?

Fantastic post Brian. I noticed you mentioned checking the pitcher analysis, and I'd like to mention one more thing there. Along with just checking how many pitches were balls, we can also check how many times we chase out of the zone on that same screen.

When I'm watching my CPU games, I like to keep track of how many times they chase out of the zone (whether they make contact or not), knowing that there are plenty of walks in those games (with the human element removed). Rarely do I see that "chased" number exceed 20% of a team's total pitch count in those games. So, the way I see it, if our own user-controlled chase numbers approach those of the CPU games, then the walk totals would start going up.

It's all about patience...and the right settings. I know a lot of people turn their noses up at guess pitch, but if you think of it as a way of covering more of the plate than just locking in on one pitch, you might find that those pitches you chased and struck out on might instead be safely fouled off. Another option is the pitch speed slider, to slow down the entire hitting process and give you more time to make a swing decision.

Just some thoughts. Like Enigma, I love this under the hood stuff too.

[Speedy]

Re: Does The Show PREDETERMINE HRs or DISTANCE on ball contact?

This is so nasty...but I keep looking at it!

Awesome stuff, Brian!

[Zinger]

Re: Does The Show PREDETERMINE HRs or DISTANCE on ball contact?

I have definitely changed my mind on walks in The Show over time. I used to think it was too hard to draw them when batting and too easy not to give them up when pitching. I've now realised that my lack of walks when batting was definitely due mainly to my impatience, however much I didn't want to admit it. As Brian says, it requires full concentration and when playing too casually I relapse into old ways and try to hit too much. But overall, by leaving many more borderline pitches, I now get a realistic amount of walks and, what's more, real satisfaction at having done so. If walks were any easier it would spoil the sim element of the game.

With regard to giving up walks when pitching, my situation is slightly different. I still don't give up many, but I have belatedly realised that this comes at the expense of giving up more hits and runs than most other teams. My stats in those departments were pretty awful in 09 and prevented me from ever challenging in my division. This year I am going to have to force myself to pitch more out of the zone in order to keep the opposing offence a bit more subdued. I love the fact that there is a real point to pitching like this and not just to artificially boost walks while pitching.

Keep up the good work, SCEA!

[Brian SCEA]

Re: Does The Show PREDETERMINE HRs or DISTANCE on ball contact?

When I'm watching my CPU games, I like to keep track of how many times they chase out of the zone (whether they make contact or not), knowing that there are plenty of walks in those games (with the human element removed). Rarely do I see that "chased" number exceed 20% of a team's total pitch count in those games. So, the way I see it, if our own user-controlled chase numbers approach those of the CPU games, then the walk totals would start going up.

Yeah, the CPU plays a pretty patient game at the plate and 20% is a good rule of thumb for chasing pitches. The only way you can achieve that (taking 80% of balls) is to also take the borderline strikes. That's how the guys in the majors do it.

Borderline strikes don't tend to make good hits anyways, unless they're right where you were looking.

[ty5oke]

Re: Does The Show PREDETERMINE HRs or DISTANCE on ball contact?

Excellent post Brian. Loved reading that explanation.

[TribeFan80]

Re: Does The Show PREDETERMINE HRs or DISTANCE on ball contact?

Thanks for the reply Brian, it was very interesting to read.

I will be very anxious to try my patience in mlb 10. I think my problem was I had a hard time laying off the border line pitches.

[Chef Matt]

Re: Does The Show PREDETERMINE HRs or DISTANCE on ball contact?

That said, if someone can't draw walks by a big margin but wants to, that's something the game can't easily solve and still stay a sim. One thing you can do in 09 is adjust the two sliders related to accuracy.

I adjusted these and drawing walks was no longer a problem for my own impatience at the plate.

Great write up Brian. That's a good read. I printed it for future reference LOL.