Fixing God-like Outfielder Ability

[CPT]

Re: Fixing God-like Outfielder Ability

not trying to be a pot stirrer but I have been watching baseball for a long time. From that I deduct the following....if you do not agree - fine:

When balls are hit over a guys head it is mostly because he was lined up wrong to begin with, correct? Except on shots off the wall, correct? How often do you see this really happen in (real-life) MLB unless the OF is playing WAY in (situational)... like a deep SS/2B. Are they going to be playing that far in for a power hitter? For a guy LIKELY to have the power to hit it over their heads? Ideally, dont the OF'ers play to the general depth they believe the batter will hit the ball thus minimizing the chance that the ball IS hit over their heads? Dont they generally try to avoid that by playing deep enough?

If SCEA sees this as a big issue and they address it....fine. Will I notice the difference? Probably not, maybe I will and be proven wrong but as of today... I cant even remember the last time I saw a ball hit over a guys head (end of game situations excluded) unless he flat out misplayed it right off the bat.

[Amoo316]

Re: Fixing God-like Outfielder Ability

You want different alignment, okay, but there are "workarounds" if a slider is a workaround. That's what they're there for.

Can I please have my workaround for throwing runners out @ home while my outfielders are in "shallow" depth. As I said previously in this thread I played OF for years. You really can't put a specific number to shallow depth, but you can define it. Shallow depth should allow you to at minimum tie an average speed runner to the plate tagging from third on any ball hit in the air directly to you or in front of you that you catch on the fly.

I can understand for the sake of a video game just giving it an arbitrary average value so that a different calculation doesn't need to be made for each fielder.

Like I said earlier in this post I don't know what harm exactly it would do to the gameplay by moving the fielders in so I'm not necessarily saying that's the answer. I do know that claiming there is a slider fix for fielder misalignment is not a completely accurate statement.

[TripleThreat1973]

Re: Fixing God-like Outfielder Ability

No, you said this....among other things.

I see a noticeable difference in Dunn tracking down a ball/and not (and you aren't talking about over the head above) compared to Pierre. So, and I'm just quoting you, Quentin catches everything hit to right field in the air? That's what you're saying.

Okay, if that's it, but I dunno. I've got a different game, I guess. If that's what you're seeing when you play, cool. But this forum would be on fire if this were the case. If you exaggerated to prove a point...

As far as exaggeration or fishing for attention or anything of that sort ... I really don't have much interest in that aspect of the internet.

I did take screenshots last night of exactly what I am talking about. Wells hits a ball deep in the gap on a line. TCQ takes 12 strides and catches in on the jog just in front of the track. At contact, my initial feeling is that it was at least two, maybe three ... then I remembered and chuckled "He gone" (knowing that it would be caught). TCQ hasn't made a catch like that in his entire career. *grin* I've seen Vlad make the same catch when playing Texas, and Cust do the same at Oakland. I just assummed that it doesn't really matter who's in the OF because those 3 guys are all "DH caliber fielders". My preference would not to have to have this conversation at all. I don't get any particular enjoyment or fulfillment out of it.

Incidently, a similar play occurred later on with Wells in RF and I saw the animation where the fielder "misplays" the ball or it gets past him for a triple. I had not seen that before.

-----------------------------------------

The reason why this is discussion-worthy (in response to another poster asking how common it is) is because going back on the ball is the most difficult part of playing the outfield ... especially when balls are struck hard, right at you. Your first notion is to step in and then you realize it's over your head ... or, it's hit over your head and you're running to the wall, tracking the ball, as your eyes are bouncing, and the ball is travelling through all sorts of colors of t-shirts.

I would say, just by experience and observation, that generally a ball is played off the wall once a game. Not because the OF's are positioned incorrectly (unless you're assuming that the coach should have known the batter was going to drive the ball over the OF head). Most OF's are fine going side to side and in (easier to read trajectory, etc). Going back is a completely different matter. You can see good outfielders fooled on balls like that.

[jmik58]

Re: Fixing God-like Outfielder Ability

not trying to be a pot stirrer but I have been watching baseball for a long time. From that I deduct the following....if you do not agree - fine:

When balls are hit over a guys head it is mostly because he was lined up wrong to begin with, correct? Except on shots off the wall, correct? How often do you see this really happen in (real-life) MLB unless the OF is playing WAY in (situational)... like a deep SS/2B. Are they going to be playing that far in for a power hitter? For a guy LIKELY to have the power to hit it over their heads? Ideally, dont the OF'ers play to the general depth they believe the batter will hit the ball thus minimizing the chance that the ball IS hit over their heads? Dont they generally try to avoid that by playing deep enough?

If SCEA sees this as a big issue and they address it....fine. Will I notice the difference? Probably not, maybe I will and be proven wrong but as of today... I cant even remember the last time I saw a ball hit over a guys head (end of game situations excluded) unless he flat out misplayed it right off the bat.

First off, don't take this quote as a direct rebuttal to everything you said. I am just quoting you because I thought you brought up some good points worth talking about, and because you helped guide some discussion.

With that said, I'm going to have to disagree with your statement that the the majority of hits over fielders' heads is due to misalignment.

That argument doesn't really make sense, because why would a professional baseball player be out of position that often? If you're trying to apply the findings regarding this game to real life, then it's not there. If what you're saying is correct and if The Show is correct, then that means that outfielders ALWAYS line up 30-50 feet deeper than they should in "normal" depth and "shallow" depth. If they were to line up there every time, then that would be the correct way to play it. But it's not.

And keep in mind, the devs have ADMITTED that they don't have the outfielders in the correct place in relation to real life. That's not even up for debate.

And to answer your next question. No, outfielders don't align based on how deep they think the fielder will hit the ball. If that was the case, when Pujols or Howard came up they would climb into the stands.

Outfielders align in normal alignments for normal situations. They may get a little deeper for power hitters in a normal situation, but we're not talking about situational issues. We're saying that on the majority of the plays where a normal alignment is used, fielders are too deep. It's proven and it's been confessed to by the makers of the game.

Outfielders play at a depth and shade that allows them to get to the high percentage hit-chart spots that a hitter typically hits to in that situation. Fielders line up to stop the law of averages, not the extremes. Unless, of course, the situation calls for an extreme alignment.

But this isn't about extremes. This is about the ordinary play.

And again, this discussion isn't about line shots off the wall over the fielder's head. The issue many have with this is that we know for a fact the fielders are misaligned, and we also observe that the outfielders are catching balls that are hit deep that a player in the correct starting position should not get to with the frequency that outfielders in The Show achieve.

Another interesting point is that a large majority of the people who are seeing this as an issue, are current or former baseball players. And current or former coaches. So we have people who are very educated on the game of baseball who are making this point.

[thaSLAB]

Re: Fixing God-like Outfielder Ability

I can say that I see a variety of hits and catches by outfielders, and it seems to vary depending on the fielder. Here is an example of the CPU (Arizona) not making great plays on the ball. Note that the batter (C. Thomas) and fielder (B. Young) are involved in both plays, so defensive depth should be the same.

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Now I have seen the long run & catch, as well as made a few myself, but nothing that I felt was out of the abilities of the particular fielder. I've even made a long run/catch where I had to leap at the end to make the catch (which there is an animation for.)

[joesaysso]

Re: Fixing God-like Outfielder Ability

Not trying to be difficult here but if you hit a shot into the gap, how much is the depth of the OF really going to prevent a double?

.

I literally just played a game where I hit the ball off of the right-center wall. The outfielders was in position so quick that hit literally caught the ball off of the wall (it never touched the ground) and threw me out a 2nd base. I'd say that it could happen.

[BobSacamano]

Re: Fixing God-like Outfielder Ability

I've started playing with fielder run speed at 0 and reactions at 10. It goes a loooong way to making the outfield play more realistically. It actually feels like you have to work to cover a lot of ground and more balls get into the gaps.

On the other hand, I don't think there's anything that can be done about the CPU's absurd ability at playing the ball off the wall. Every now and then they get sucked into the wall or do something not-quite-perfect, but far too often they are perfectly positioned to play the carom and fire the ball back in. This is especially glaring when you play at Fenway (where I play half my games), as the CPU routinely catches the ball off the Monster, without letting it bounce first. Meanwhile, I have no idea where the ball is going to bounce because the camera won't show me.

[TripleThreat1973]

Re: Fixing God-like Outfielder Ability

Another interesting point is that a large majority of the people who are seeing this as an issue, are current or former baseball players. And current or former coaches. So we have people who are very educated on the game of baseball who are making this point.

That's pretty much my issue ... not necessarily the catches that are being made, but the player that's doing it. If it were a one time deal or something that seemed like a fluke, it would be a "oh well, that's baseball" moment. But, it's too consistent, based on what we know from experience, observations, and defensive metrics.

I've tried to use examples of this works in my favor so the issue doesn't stray from what it is to me complaining about losing or not being good.

As for watching OF play .... as a Cradinals fan I got to see Chris Duncan* do the impossible ... by making Rick Ankilel's routes and reads look amazing. *grin*

* I do feel bad for Duncan. He's a DH/1B that was being forced into the OF because they wanted his bat in the lineup, and well, that's what 1B's look like in the OF. "On Skates" is the slang term. When you're a poor IF, you get the "wears boxing gloves" description.

[jim416]

Re: Fixing God-like Outfielder Ability

As far as exaggeration or fishing for attention or anything of that sort ... I really don't have much interest in that aspect of the internet.

Well, nobody said you do, but I've asked you questions and you haven't answered them. If you're gonna post that Quentin has caught

every ball hit to right field in the air

is going to get questioned. You said it, not me, lol. You still haven't answered it, but.....enough for me. Dead horse.

[jim416]

Re: Fixing God-like Outfielder Ability

Can I please have my workaround for throwing runners out @ home while my outfielders are in "shallow" depth.

I don't know how to respond to this one. You're playing shallow and can't throw anyone out at home? Don't know what to tell you.

[johnnyg83]

Re: Fixing God-like Outfielder Ability

I would agree that they generally play too deep ...

[CPT]

Re: Fixing God-like Outfielder Ability

That argument doesn't really make sense, because why would a professional baseball player be out of position that often?

Outfielders align in normal alignments for normal situations. They may get a little deeper for power hitters in a normal situation, but we're not talking about situational issues. We're saying that on the majority of the plays where a normal alignment is used, fielders are too deep. It's proven and it's been confessed to by the makers of the game.

Outfielders play at a depth and shade that allows them to get to the high percentage hit-chart spots that a hitter typically hits to in that situation. Fielders line up to stop the law of averages, not the extremes. Unless, of course, the situation calls for an extreme alignment.

And again, this discussion isn't about line shots off the wall over the fielder's head. The issue many have with this is that we know for a fact the fielders are misaligned, and we also observe that the outfielders are catching balls that are hit deep that a player in the correct starting position should not get to with the frequency that outfielders in The Show achieve.

Another interesting point is that a large majority of the people who are seeing this as an issue, are current or former baseball players. And current or former coaches. So we have people who are very educated on the game of baseball who are making this point.

ok. I dont think we are really on different pages here. With all those things you just stated - why would we expect to see balls hit over the OF heads except for the very rare situation when they are indeed following the law of averages?

Not trying to be difficult I just dont see this very often in real life, so why should it be more than a rare occurrence in the game? I am simply stating that I have seen slow guys get to balls and I have seen them get balls hit over their heads even aligned too deep to begin with.

I know you are not labeling this thing "gamekiller," just something to look at for 2011 and I hope they do...whatever makes the game better, I am all for - we just are seing things from different viewpoints.

[jmik58]

Re: Fixing God-like Outfielder Ability

ok. I dont think we are really on different pages here. With all those things you just stated - why would we expect to see balls hit over the OF heads except for the very rare situation when they are indeed following the law of averages?

Not trying to be difficult I just dont see this very often in real life, so why should it be more than a rare occurrence in the game? I am simply stating that I have seen slow guys get to balls and I have seen them get balls hit over their heads even aligned too deep to begin with.

I know you are not labeling this thing "gamekiller," just something to look at for 2011 and I hope they do...whatever makes the game better, I am all for - we just are seing things from different viewpoints.

I think we all agree that it's difficult to give specific numbers on how many balls are hit to a certain spot at this time. I also think we all agree that the fielders aren't getting to everything they shouldn't, and sometimes they don't catch the ones they should (just to be fair).

What we know and have to agree with is that the outfielders are lined up too deep in normal and shallow. We don't have to debate that.

For me and others (maybe you as well) that's something that should be fixed, if for no other reason that to achieve a reflection of what is true to the game. Of course results are important, but I believe that we should have the correct alignment and then make adjustments with sliders if the correct alignment leads to unrealistic results.

Until one of us goes through and documents the types of hits (and finds a way to categorize them) in a season, this is a tough argument to back up with facts or statistics regarding results. We would then have to document the hits that are in "The Show." I don't see anyone (including myself) really wanting to do this.

I guess until someone compares hit and out charts between real life and The Show, it's difficult to convince anyone the results are being impacted. And I accept that without argument. My opinion is that I (and several others) are observing based on our experiences playing, coaching, and watching, that the outfielders get to balls they shouldn't. We now know the players are lined up too deep in normal and shallow alignments. We also have turned down sliders on fielding and improved hitting sliders to compensate, but it hasn't been near adequate.

I'm glad everyone could be civil, for the most part, and like you said, let's hope they do something about this for '11. If not, the game is still a winner.

[JT30]

Re: Fixing God-like Outfielder Ability

A good example of the alignment problem is at Fenway. Look at where the CPU OFers play. No one plays 5 feet from the Monster in real life, but they do in this game.... and the CF was so far back in a game I played, I actually got a stand up double with Ellsbury when I hit a ground ball up the middle.

The CFer was basically on the warning track and it took forever for him to run in and field the ball.

[jmik58]

Re: Fixing God-like Outfielder Ability

A good example of the alignment problem is at Fenway. Look at where the CPU OFers play. No one plays 5 feet from the Monster in real life, but they do in this game.... and the CF was so far back in a game I played, I actually got a stand up double with Ellsbury when I hit a ground ball up the middle.

The CFer was basically on the warning track and it took forever for him to run in and field the ball.

This is another great example of how this is more than whether you think the fielders are getting to balls they shouldn't.

Here you have an example of a fielder not getting to something when he should and it affecting the gameplay negatively.

Thanks for sharing.