SCEA needs to find a way to mimic hitters with patience/good eyes

[SoxFan01605]

Re: SCEA needs to find a way to mimic hitters with patience/good eyes

It wouldn't happen all the time just because a guy has a good eye. I thought the overall idea was for it to happen on a very obvious ball that the user just haphazardly swung at.

My issue with having something like "better recognition of the spin of the ball" is that you're basically also taking something away from the user by only making it possible to read the spin with some hitters and not others.

Why bump up the quality of the seams of the ball and then say: Only good hitters can see this.

I would think that upping the quality of the ball should be something all developers would work on no matter pitch recognition or eye or anything. It should just happen because graphics say it should.

One thing that has not been mentioned is how MLB 2K10 went about this.

Guys with good eyes will a lot of the time (not all the time) have the strike zone flash to show where a pitch was headed.

So if a pitch was going to be outside, the outside part of the strike zone would flash quickly, and instantly your eyes went to that part of the plate. That focus on the outer part made it easier for the user to read ball or strike.

If we're going with visual indicators, that was my favorite in a video game. Never liked the MVP approach, especially considering that I'm color blind.

That's fine. Like I said, I'm not advocating Hitter's Eye or flashing seams. In fact, I prefer it as it is, mostly. The Show accounts for hitters patience by making check swings and fouling off pitches easier for guys with higher ratings. I can much more easily work a walk with Youk than Beltre.

If they expanded on that (maybe make the spread a bit more dramatic, like making check swings super easy for high patience guys and vice versa) then that might be enough. I dunno.

Anyway, my only point was that it sounds a lot easier to determine how to appropriately tackle a visual indicator or something along those lines than the many "what if's" of locking a swing. I'm just thinking bugs, situations, etc. Like I said though, if they make it an option, I won't gripe (and I'm sure whatever SCEA chose to do would be well thought out and balanced).

We'll see what, if anything, they come up with down the road.

[Blzer]

Re: SCEA needs to find a way to mimic hitters with patience/good eyes

I think the more important thing they need to do (outside of tendencies) is make pitches outside of the zone more accessible for solid contact. Something that's right off the plate isn't a weak pitch to hit by any means, but the past games have reflected it as such. I don't know how good tendencies will be if that means they are going to be swinging at relatively poor-choice pitches.

[jbprice20]

Re: SCEA needs to find a way to mimic hitters with patience/good eyes

first off, one of the devs has already said that adam dunn, ryan howard, etc. will see more balls because the game takes into account the power rating (among other ratings i'm sure) when deciding how to pitch to a batter.

someone mentioned the consistency slider as a fix but that slider also affects wild pitches, hit batters, etc. so that's a problem, imo. the easiest fix is to decouple hit batters, wild pitches, etc. from the consistency slider but i'm thinking this is easier said than done...

so, i've always thought the easiest way to implement a hitter's eye (i'm not interested in mirroring a hitter's patience...imo, that's up to me so i'm not a fan of the auto no-swing ideas) is just to make balls really look like balls to guys with a "good eye". by the time the ball leaves the pitchers hand, the computer knows where it's going...add a x% distance increase/decrease for balls depending on the hitter's eye, maybe the pitcher's k/9 and bb/9, etc. the problem is that if the show doesn't do a "die roll" to determine wild pitches, hit batters, etc. which i'm assuming it doesn't, you'll increase those things when a "good eye" batter is at the plate which isn't desirable...

[Blzer]

Re: SCEA needs to find a way to mimic hitters with patience/good eyes

Yeah, as I said in another thread it would be really cool if each and every hitter kind of ended up having their own camera angle/system when coming up to the plate, but that would take a lot into account to make it work right and I'm sure some people would be none too pleased.

[CMH]

Re: SCEA needs to find a way to mimic hitters with patience/good eyes

I'm not sure I understand what people mean by "make it really look like a ball."

How do you do that without messing with the integrity of a pitch? If you make pitchers throw balls wider than usual because Player X has an amazing eye, it's entirely unrealistic to the game.

The point of having a patient hitter is that they take the close pitches because they know they are balls. Or they take pitches because they wait for their pitch.

[VideoTyrant]

Re: SCEA needs to find a way to mimic hitters with patience/good eyes

I'm not sure I understand what people mean by "make it really look like a ball."

How do you do that without messing with the integrity of a pitch? If you make pitchers throw balls wider than usual because Player X has an amazing eye, it's entirely unrealistic to the game.

The point of having a patient hitter is that they take the close pitches because they know they are balls. Or they take pitches because they wait for their pitch.

Yes you're right that having a good eye at the plate is a skill level for each batter just the same as power and contact are, and that cheating a pitch would be unfair for them if each batter was represented with this skill as they are in real life....However its a video game and you are controlling all 9 batters so basically that skill of hitters eye and patience is just a user skill that will be the same whether your batting with Vlad Guerrero or Brett Gardner...so in the end if you play every game of your season and don't sim at all basically all of your BB #s will end up around the same for nearly everyone on your roster. So while it may be cheap and cheating the system to have a pitcher throw blatantly more obvious balls to one hitter and not to hitters with bad eyes is one way people are thinking to try to bring this hitting skill into meaning, other than the small meanings it does have such as check swing. So I can't see why it'd hurt to make it an option you can either play with the "cheat" pitch systems to help make hitters with good eyes and patience easier to walk with or you can play it out has it has always been and make the stats more user defined than ratings defined. I see the argument for either side on this one, but more options can never hurt and making some kind of way to implement a hitters eye or patience and making it an option would be fine by me.

[Heroesandvillains]

Re: SCEA needs to find a way to mimic hitters with patience/good eyes

But how do you do that without adding colors to the screen or slowing down pitch speed? I would think that's more of a distraction.

I think the easiest way is to tie it into consistency.

See my first post.

[CMH]

Re: SCEA needs to find a way to mimic hitters with patience/good eyes

I can see that. I think that's more in line with what SCEA would do. I originally read your post as suggesting that pitchers throw wider balls to make it more obvious. I cannot support such a method.

[Heroesandvillains]

Re: SCEA needs to find a way to mimic hitters with patience/good eyes

first off, one of the devs has already said that adam dunn, ryan howard, etc. will see more balls because the game takes into account the power rating (among other ratings i'm sure) when deciding how to pitch to a batter.

someone mentioned the consistency slider as a fix but that slider also affects wild pitches, hit batters, etc. so that's a problem, imo. the easiest fix is to decouple hit batters, wild pitches, etc. from the consistency slider but i'm thinking this is easier said than done...

so, i've always thought the easiest way to implement a hitter's eye (i'm not interested in mirroring a hitter's patience...imo, that's up to me so i'm not a fan of the auto no-swing ideas) is just to make balls really look like balls to guys with a "good eye". by the time the ball leaves the pitchers hand, the computer knows where it's going...add a x% distance increase/decrease for balls depending on the hitter's eye, maybe the pitcher's k/9 and bb/9, etc. the problem is that if the show doesn't do a "die roll" to determine wild pitches, hit batters, etc. which i'm assuming it doesn't, you'll increase those things when a "good eye" batter is at the plate which isn't desirable...

Yes, I agree (I was the one that mentioned it, pg. 1).

But, let's not discount the idea because wild pitches/bean balls are over done in 10'.

A. The system already exists.

B. It takes zero input away from the user.

C. There's a slider for it, so it can be tweaked to each users liking.

Even great pitchers are more cautious with elite hitters, pitching around them when necessary. Consistency seems like a decent idea to me.

Now...what to do about the bean balls?........

[Heroesandvillains]

Re: SCEA needs to find a way to mimic hitters with patience/good eyes

JBPrice, I sort of misread your post.

Good point. Removing bean balls/wild pitches from consistency is exactly what I'd like to see.

[ChaseB]

Re: SCEA needs to find a way to mimic hitters with patience/good eyes

I feel like the change would have to be more on the pitching AI side of things rather than having the AI control you as the hitter. I say that because if you let the AI control when you swing on one end, do you then let it decide that you can't throw a first-pitch strike to some player with a high OBP while you are pitching? It would seem only fair to do it that way.

Generally speaking, the guys who get walked the most are walked the most because of their power/skill/lack of protection. You run into some unique cases like Daric Barton -- a guy who does not have amazing power/average but gets a ton of walks -- but many other times it is a pitcher's discretion/nibbling that leads to a walk.

So really the hitter's "eye" is a tricky thing to really incorporate correctly I would think because it still has to come back to the user -- I'm not talking about implementing a hitter's eye mechanic either, I simply mean how the users use their own hitter's "eye" while approaching an at-bat.

But even if you incorporate an AI pitching system that throws more balls to high OBP guys, it's still not a cure all. A user has to be smart enough to know that a Daric Barton or a Chone Figgins (2009 version) is going to take pitches. From there, you then also have to know that the game is programmed in a way that it respects high-OBP guys, and will artificially throw more balls just to suit that need.

It's obviously even more complicated because all of this is thrown out if you incorporate a human pitcher into the equation.

[CMH]

Re: SCEA needs to find a way to mimic hitters with patience/good eyes

I feel like the change would have to be more on the pitching AI side of things rather than having the AI control you as the hitter. I say that because if you let the AI control when you swing on one end, do you then let it decide that you can't throw a first-pitch strike to some player with a high OBP while you are pitching? It would seem only fair to do it that way.

Generally speaking, the guys who get walked the most are walked the most because of their power/skill/lack of protection. You run into some unique cases like Daric Barton -- a guy who does not have amazing power/average but gets a ton of walks -- but many other times it is a pitcher's discretion/nibbling that leads to a walk.

So really the hitter's "eye" is a tricky thing to really incorporate correctly I would think because it still has to come back to the user -- I'm not talking about implementing a hitter's eye mechanic either, I simply mean how the users use their own hitter's "eye" while approaching an at-bat.

But even if you incorporate an AI pitching system that throws more balls to high OBP guys, it's still not a cure all. A user has to be smart enough to know that a Daric Barton or a Chone Figgins (2009 version) is going to take pitches. From there, you then also have to know that the game is programmed in a way that it respects high-OBP guys, and will artificially throw more balls just to suit that need.

It's obviously even more complicated because all of this is thrown out if you incorporate a human pitcher into the equation.

You use Barton, I use Nick Johnson as my basis.

I think it is a given that power guys will draw more walks. We know why they do. But guys like Barton and Nick Johnson do not scare pitchers with the homerun. They just have amazing eyes.

I think that's more a result of them taking the pitches on the corner then because pitchers are throwing around them.

That's why I disagree with hitter's eye. It doesn't say anything about location. It just says: Here's a fastball.

I'm for the no swing because it allows those guys that take corner balls to hold up like they would. I'm not sure why you say it has to be incorporated for the human pitcher as well. The CPU hitter already knows not to swing at corner balls and knows this most especially if the hitter has a great eye.

I don't think the no swing force mechanic would be set if you get a pitch over the plate. I'm meaning only for pitches that are balls. Those pitches that you hate yourself for swinging at after the fact because you knew it was a ball but you somehow still pressed the swing button anyway.

And if not that then MLB 2K10's system would be great. Using Nick Johnson you are pretty much given a quick flash of where a pitch was headed as it was being thrown. It happened most of the time, but not all of the time. Derek Jeter happened a lot of the time. Robinson Cano much less of the time.

[Blzer]

Re: SCEA needs to find a way to mimic hitters with patience/good eyes

They just have amazing eyes.

That's why I'm for the system I was referring to: make "mock" strike zones for every player. I'll have to do a Photoshop job to much more easily explain what I'm talking about, but it will kind of make you feel like you have to swing if it's within that zone even if it's not really a strike.

But again, if they do any of this even the players who swing out of the zone can't instantly be penalized. A guy like Vlad Guerrero feeds off bad balls, so does Pablo Sandoval. But the past iterations of this game has no sympathy for people who even swing at corner pitches, let alone off the plate. You end up tapping out nearly every time. There definitely needs to be a wider range of what you can put in play, I'm just saying. And hey, some players are better at that than others. If there was a "bad ball" attribute, that would help tremendously (it should basically redistribute the discrepancy between how you hit good pitches versus bad pitches, all against the player's ratings themselves).

But yeah, I'll get to work on that system I was referring to. I just have to find a way to put Photoshop back on my computer.

[CMH]

Re: SCEA needs to find a way to mimic hitters with patience/good eyes

What if people play with strike zone off?

I do agree that there should be some variation on what players can do with pithes out of the zone.

Players like Vlad do not seem to be modeled well in the "outside the zone" penalty system.

[Blzer]

Re: SCEA needs to find a way to mimic hitters with patience/good eyes

What if people play with strike zone off?

I do agree that there should be some variation on what players can do with pithes out of the zone.

Players like Vlad do not seem to be modeled well in the "outside the zone" penalty system.

I play with strike zone off all of the time (hell, I don't have anything on that probably doesn't need to be). I understand that this thing would be a visual, but it would only be ever so slight. The point of this was even if people play with strike zone off, they might find themselves tempted to swing at pitches they never thought they would have because of the player's individual strike zone.

I think the last thing I want though is to have the game force me not to swing, though I understand why you might want that. I have some other "visual" ideas that will hint toward where the ball is coming (and whether it's looking like a ball or strike), but that would only be during the flight of the pitch and not before, and it wouldn't be very obtrusive of a graphic either. But again, these would all be rating-dependent and would force a hand for SCEA to really go all in with it. I'm guessing we don't have something in place this year, but here's to looking into the future.