Slow/incorrect animations...

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  • Pared
    Legen - WAIT FOR IT
    • Feb 2003
    • 39337

    #91
    Re: Slow/incorrect animations...

    And this is exactly why I asked for videos.

    First of all, most of those aren't even "slow/incorrect" animations. The only one, which I've said time and time again, that is a complete issue due to bogged animation is the pitcher fielding the bunt. I've said this before the game even released and we addressed it with the developers. For some odd reason, those animations are still in the game and cause players to be able to bunt for hits and succeed in squeeze play scenarios way too often.

    With that out of the way, the last "example" was of YOU not correctly branching the throw. Perhaps the game can provide a better example of you "failing" but it's not really an animation issue.

    The issue with who you are controlling is something the developers have to struggle with all the time. In that one scenario you posted, the game calculated that you would have no shot in fielding that hit with the 2nd baseman and who knows - it may have done so incorrectly.

    The ball being missed by the second baseman is a ground ball that was out of reach. You play the same scenario other times and the fielder gets to the ball and makes a play. You're going to say you've never, EVER seen a play in real life baseball where a fielder looked like he "could have made the play" if he "just reached?"

    Perhaps I'll be the minority here but I have no issues with a majority of what you posted. Almost none of it relates to animation issues and that only cements what I've said in these threads.

    Does the CPU have these same issues? Do they misplay balls hit to them or make those same lob throbs... ever?
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    Comment

    • nomo17k
      Permanently Banned
      • Feb 2011
      • 5735

      #92
      Re: Slow/incorrect animations...

      I personally have no issues on most of the jd369 posted (except bunting... there obviously are issues there. Bunting is too successful), so I agree with Pared.

      Lobbing, though, does happen even with preloaded, hard throws. That happens when the fielders are slow covering the base. In real life, if someone is supposed to be on time covering the base, a fielding player is supposed to make a hard throw targeting the *base.* But in the game, when the covering is late, they make weak throws, maybe waiting for a fielder to cover the base... That's why 3-6-3/1 DPs are hard to turn to in this game.

      That also happens with catcher throwing to 2B for a steal. When 2B/SS is late, the catcher throws to the player, which isn't realistic. The catcher should be aiming the 2B, hoping 2B/SS gets there on time to handle it.

      So in those situations there are certainly limitations. But it seems to be more like how the game is handling the situation, not strictly an animation issue.
      Last edited by nomo17k; 06-20-2011, 05:11 PM. Reason: typo... lob, not rob lol
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      Comment

      • Bobhead
        Pro
        • Mar 2011
        • 4926

        #93
        Re: Slow/incorrect animations...

        I have to agree with Pared. I can kind of agree with the issue of the lob on the double play, because I've seen for myself cases where the game decides a underarm or lob is appropriate, when it really isn't. All the fielding issues you posted are non-issues. The fielders simply misplayed the ground balls by putting their glove in the wrong place. This happens in real life all the time.

        The issue with having control of the wrong fielder is definitely a problem, but, and I don't say this often, I think the developers deserve a pass here, because a proper algorithm for assigning you the appropriate fielder is a lot harder than it sounds, and it has been an issue in baseball video games since the beginning of time.

        The second poster's (VonD) first and third videos were also non-issues. All I saw were actual errors, the same sorts of errors that both the CPU and real life baseball players will commonly encounter. The middle video I do see a minor issue with, but that is only because the game triggers catching animations at inappropriate times, or sometimes fails to. You can still attribute it to human error, because you should not be moving your fielders before you know where the ball is, had you left the control alone, its possible that ball would have been caught.

        Comment

        • thaSLAB
          [Player 1]
          • Feb 2008
          • 4495

          #94
          Originally posted by jd369
          I will address each comment with a number so I wont get responses jumbled into the wrong replies.

          1. I use buttons, the throws were pre-loaded. I always press the button pretty hard so that shouldnt have been an issue. the lob just shouldnt happen (and hasnt happened in previous years games). on the bunt, we should be able to pre-load a throw, the glove pump shouldnt be in there. also I have tried the field and throw with no pre-load and still get the glove pump sometimes. on that throw from LF I was charging and it was a great hop (tailor made for a charging throw to home) there is absolutely no reason the LF should have charged and then taken 4 or so steps to come to a complete stop, especially charging straight at the ball, he didnt have to take an angle or anything.

          2. yeah I meang RF got that completely backwards. should have been control to the 2nd baseman 100% every time. on the double cut play it wasnt thrown to first. the ball hit off my LF and rolled just a couple of feet away. I picked it up and threw to 2nd but the ball went over the first basemans head (who was covering 2nd due to the double cut for a ball in shallow left). there was no one at first base to back up the bad throw because of the double cut (first baseman should have been there because there shouldnt have been a double cut and the 2nd baseman should have been at 2nd, thus allowing the firstbaseman to be where he belonged and grab the bad throw).

          3. it happens way more than it should have has affected the outcome of quite a few games for me both against friends and the CPU.

          I am sure you dont mean it the way it sounded, but these things arent "user error" especially for people that have been playing this game for years, we know how to make throws and what not. but when the logic/animations is flawed and things dont work that falls on the developers to make this game more true to life. when we are seeing things that would never happen in a game its annoying and irritating, even more so when you are in franchise and its costing you games you should win (or at least have a shot to win). like I said in my post above, when these things happen it makes me sympathize with the folks that rant about comeback code. Im sure Ill have some more videos soon. Im gonna keep on this until we get a dev, or multiple devs in here to acknowledge there is a problem and that they are on it for next year.
          Well, I did say user 'related'... not error, since there is really no right or wrong approach to fielding and throwing. In my opinion, it just seems like some players are actually looking for a more arcadish approach to fielding and throwing (disregarding momentum and mechanics) - I think the game is pretty realistic, if approached in a realistic fashion.

          Take a look at this video, and let me know if you see anything wrong with what me or the CPU did while in the field...



          I'm curious what you think about the 2 plays up the middle on the balls hit by Casilla and Jackson, respectively. Do you think those should have been outs, or quicker animations and throws? There is also an example of a quick throw by my second baseman on the slow dribbler by Span... I charged the ball (granted there was no collision detection with Casilla), then pressed the stick to 1st after I had it for a quick toss. There is also a ball hit over my second baseman's head, where I was given control of the RF as well; I think that was the right decision as I don't think I could have jumped to snag it... and with it being 2 outs, there was no way I was throwing to the plate, knowing that the runner was going on any contact. I definitely think the fielder control is hard to calculate tho, that's why on plays like that I often press L2 to switch manually.



          Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk
          Last edited by thaSLAB; 06-20-2011, 12:08 PM.
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          Comment

          • Pared
            Legen - WAIT FOR IT
            • Feb 2003
            • 39337

            #95
            Re: Slow/incorrect animations...

            Nice video LAB!

            The lack of fielder/runner interaction on that play certainly irks me. I'd like to see there be some contact and interference called. It would teach the user to be more aware of the situation and to wait until the runner goes by before trying to field the ball.

            I'm sure had you waited and charged a quick throw to first you could have still made the out. And that's what the game should teach you...

            Thanks for sharing!
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            Comment

            • jd369
              Banned
              • Sep 2008
              • 1341

              #96
              Re: Slow/incorrect animations...

              Originally posted by Pared
              And this is exactly why I asked for videos.


              With that out of the way, the last "example" was of YOU not correctly branching the throw. Perhaps the game can provide a better example of you "failing" but it's not really an animation issue.


              The ball being missed by the second baseman is a ground ball that was out of reach. You play the same scenario other times and the fielder gets to the ball and makes a play. You're going to say you've never, EVER seen a play in real life baseball where a fielder looked like he "could have made the play" if he "just reached?"



              Does the CPU have these same issues? Do they misplay balls hit to them or make those same lob throbs... ever?
              what are you talking about "branching the throw" I charged straight at the ball and then threw it home. how does charging the ball warrant what happened in that video? the guy came to a complete stop and then threw the ball after killing all his momentum. that isnt something *I* did wrong, thats the player going into the wrong animation (an anmiation that shouldnt even be present). take a look at this video and notice how prado charges the ball and comes up throwing. thats what should have been done in my last video. if prado had caught the ball and come to a complete stop he would have never made a good throw home.

              Coverage includes audio and video clips, interviews, statistics, schedules and exclusive stories.


              the other I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I see plays where it looks like if the fielder gave a little more effort on a stretch he could have gotten it. I dont see plays where the player doesnt even extend his arm at all and just lets the ball go by him, which is what the video I posted looks like. I also see this from the CPU on a much rarer occasion than it happens to a human controlled team. the only thing I can recall seeing from the CPU is a lob on a DP. that doesnt make it ok, I dont want to have it happen to CPU teams anymore than I want it happening to me.

              it just irks me that people ask for videos then come back to say its the users fault when it most certainly is not the users fault. I dont recall having any issues in 09 or 10 on some of these so why would I all of a sudden forget what Im doing in 11 to cause these problems?
              Last edited by jd369; 06-20-2011, 12:28 PM.

              Comment

              • jd369
                Banned
                • Sep 2008
                • 1341

                #97
                Re: Slow/incorrect animations...

                Originally posted by VonD
                All in one inning:

                <IFRAME src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/cYL4DUHSTqM" frameBorder=0 width=560 height=349 allowfullscreen></IFRAME>

                <IFRAME src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/HipOB_dk7S0" frameBorder=0 width=560 height=349 allowfullscreen></IFRAME>

                <IFRAME src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/UzD33dthuNM" frameBorder=0 width=560 height=349 allowfullscreen></IFRAME>
                I cant tell whats going on in the first one (had to view on my phone). the 2nd one is a little suspect, but again cant really tell what you were going for there it was a bad angle. the third one Im fine with, bad fielders will make errors sometimes.

                Comment

                • thaSLAB
                  [Player 1]
                  • Feb 2008
                  • 4495

                  #98
                  Originally posted by Pared
                  Nice video LAB!

                  The lack of fielder/runner interaction on that play certainly irks me. I'd like to see there be some contact and interference called. It would teach the user to be more aware of the situation and to wait until the runner goes by before trying to field the ball.

                  I'm sure had you waited and charged a quick throw to first you could have still made the out. And that's what the game should teach you...

                  Thanks for sharing!
                  Thanks Pared.

                  Yeah, that's one thing I've always wanted to see. It was defenitely affect your baserunning and fielding decisions. I "think" the game somewhat compensates by actually having the runner 'distract' the fielder on occasion, causing them to not field it cleanly (or it could be all in my head, LOL.)

                  Originally posted by jd369
                  ...

                  I dont recall having any issues in 09 or 10 on some of these so why would I all of a sudden forget what Im doing in 11 to cause these problems?
                  That may be part of the problem too... '11 adds player momentum which definitely changes the gameplay mechanics. Also, keep in mind that the left analog is pressure sensitive when moving your player as well.


                  Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk
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                  Comment

                  • jd369
                    Banned
                    • Sep 2008
                    • 1341

                    #99
                    Re: Slow/incorrect animations...

                    Originally posted by thaSLAB
                    Well, I did say user 'related'... not error, since there is really no right or wrong approach to fielding and throwing. In my opinion, it just seems like some players are actually looking for a more arcadish approach to fielding and throwing (disregarding momentum and mechanics) - I think the game is pretty realistic, if approached in a realistic fashion.

                    Take a look at this video, and let me know if you see anything wrong with what me or the CPU did while in the field...



                    I'm curious what you think about the 2 plays up the middle on the balls hit by Casilla and Jackson, respectively. Do you think those should have been outs, or quicker animations and throws? There is also an example of a quick throw by my second baseman on the slow dribbler by Span... I charged the ball (granted there was no collision detection with Casilla), then pressed the stick to 1st after I had it for a quick toss. There is also a ball hit over my second baseman's head, where I was given control of the RF as well; I think that was the right decision as I don't think I could have jumped to snag it... and with it being 2 outs, there was no way I was throwing to the plate, knowing that the runner was going on any contact. I definitely think the fielder control is hard to calculate tho, that's why on plays like that I often press L2 to switch manually.



                    Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk
                    the casilla hit is ok with me, that was a tough play and the SS was off balance (almost falling down) when he got to the ball so it would take more time to get a throw off properly.

                    the span quick throw was good, Im guessing it wasnt pre-loaded? I get quick throws from pre-loads also as long as Im charging (like what should have happened in my LF throw to home video).

                    The jackson hit is sort of an in between. the SS wasnt quite as off balance as on the casilla ball, but jackson can fly so any kind of off balance would make it tough to get him. on that one Im gonna lean towards should have been a better animation, he probably would have still been safe, but still a more realistic animation would have made the play seem more true to life.

                    Comment

                    • jd369
                      Banned
                      • Sep 2008
                      • 1341

                      #100
                      Re: Slow/incorrect animations...

                      Originally posted by thaSLAB
                      Thanks Pared.




                      That may be part of the problem too... '11 adds player momentum which definitely changes the gameplay mechanics. Also, keep in mind that the left analog is pressure sensitive when moving your player as well.


                      Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk
                      exactly, so I dont get why charging a ball in a straight line and pre-loading a throw to home should cause my LF to grab the ball and come to a complete stop instead of letting his momentum have him come up with a much better throw to home plate.

                      Comment

                      • Pared
                        Legen - WAIT FOR IT
                        • Feb 2003
                        • 39337

                        #101
                        Re: Slow/incorrect animations...

                        Originally posted by jd369
                        what are you talking about "branching the throw" I charged straight at the ball and then threw it home. how does charging the ball warrant what happened in that video? the guy came to a complete stop and then threw the ball after killing all his momentum. that isnt something *I* did wrong, thats the player going into the wrong animation (an anmiation that shouldnt even be present). take a look at this video and notice how prado charges the ball and comes up throwing. thats what should have been done in my last video. if prado had caught the ball and come to a complete stop he would have never made a good throw home.

                        Coverage includes audio and video clips, interviews, statistics, schedules and exclusive stories.


                        the other I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I see plays where it looks like if the fielder gave a little more effort on a stretch he could have gotten it. I dont see plays where the player doesnt even extend his arm at all and just lets the ball go by him, which is what the video I posted looks like. I also see this from the CPU on a much rarer occasion than it happens to a human controlled team. the only thing I can recall seeing from the CPU is a lob on a DP. that doesnt make it ok, I dont want to have it happen to CPU teams anymore than I want it happening to me.

                        it just irks me that people ask for videos then come back to say its the users fault when it most certainly is not the users fault. I dont recall having any issues in 09 or 10 on some of these so why would I all of a sudden forget what Im doing in 11 to cause these problems?
                        You didn't have this level of control in the games prior to '11. You had no DIRECT IMPACT on the different levels of animation blending on throws out of fielding the ball. You either pre-loaded the throw or didn't. Your example shows to me you didn't pre-load in time.

                        Nemesis put up a great video of a player fielding a ball and pre-loading the throw from the outfield correctly. If I can find a link I'll post it.

                        You know you did it correctly when it is one smooth motion. When your player jerks like that, it's because your input wasn't how it "should" be in the situation. I'm not sure if you recall All Star Baseball but they had a similar issue with the infamous "crouch" that would happen on every single throw. Hated that damn thing.

                        Anyways, I'm only here to try and provide some help on the situation. Had it been a correct input by you, the user, in that situation you would have seen a different result. Again, if you see the CPU fielding these balls cleanly then it should give you an idea how it would work if you did it the same way...
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                        Comment

                        • jd369
                          Banned
                          • Sep 2008
                          • 1341

                          #102
                          Re: Slow/incorrect animations...

                          I remember that video, but that video was at a different angle and also showed more poor logic in the baserunning area (which helps my point that the devs are responsible for most of this). I can see that I didnt have a 100% dead on angle, but I still dont feel like it was an angle that warranted the the stop and start motion (dont know what else to call it). it looks like my LF backhanded the ball (didnt see that at first) when he should have come around it a bit which is probably what caused that animation. the purpose of pre-loading is to get into the correct animation if you are "close" which I think in this case it was. also these issues dont seem to arise in early innings which is a head scratcher to me. Im definitely gonna keep an eye out for more and post more videos.

                          Comment

                          • Joey
                            Pr*
                            • Mar 2004
                            • 1836

                            #103
                            Re: Slow/incorrect animations...

                            Does that OF animation happen to you all the time, frequently, occassionally, or seldomly? Just wondering what kind of frequency we're talking about here.

                            Comment

                            • jd369
                              Banned
                              • Sep 2008
                              • 1341

                              #104
                              Re: Slow/incorrect animations...

                              Originally posted by Joey
                              Does that OF animation happen to you all the time, frequently, occassionally, or seldomly? Just wondering what kind of frequency we're talking about here.
                              I havent really started paying attention hard until recently so its tough to say. Im definitely gonna keep track of it now though.

                              Comment

                              • Woodweaver
                                Developer
                                • Apr 2006
                                • 1145

                                #105
                                Re: Slow/incorrect animations...

                                Originally posted by jd369
                                ok I finally got some time to put some videos up of things that should not be happening in this game and need to be fixed pronto. I have 6 videos here, the last 2 really piss me off cause they just cost me a game in franchise and they also make me sympathetic to all the folks that rant about comeback code.

                                http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26lsiKBvM6Q

                                pretty self explanatory, slow lob that should have been a good hard throw causes a DP not to be turned. shouldnt be happening



                                here we have a guy going to field a ground ball, but why does he keep his glove tucked down by his foot and let the ball roll by him? where is the glove extension to make this an easy play?



                                with furcal running the pitcher has no precious seconds at all for the glove pump. should have been a bare hand pick and up and immediate throw to first.



                                this one is a little hard to see, but it was an error on a shallow fly ball to left. my questions is WHY is a double cut needed when the ball was still in shallow left field? it didnt roll to the wall and when I then threw the ball to 2nd it went over the first basemans head and then rolled to first base. this should have been the 2nd baseman and then the first baseman would have still been standing at first to grab the wild throw. instead there was no one there.



                                ok this one really pisses me off. this is a shot to 2nd base, but WHY IN THE WORLD do I have control of the right fielder here?!! instead of having control of the second baseman LIKE I SHOULD it goes right past him all the way to the wall letting a run score instead of getting me out of the inning.



                                this one basically cost me the game. again, WHY IN THE WORLD is he charging the ball and instead of grabbing it and firing home home does he come to a complete stop and then lob a throw in?!!! that animation just needs to be removed.

                                so as you can see there are plenty instances of insane and unrealistic game logic or whatever you call it that needs to be overhauled. I definitely will not purchase this game next year if things like this that affect gameplay and make it unrealistic stays in the game.
                                1) You have a point here. Another poster in this thread mentioned the point that throws to bases are targeted to the cover position. This means that if the coverer is not there yet we try to select an "on the run" DP catch to faciliate a fast throw. Unfortunately, we have a limited number of catch animations to cover a huge set of possible scenarios. We can try to slow down the covering fielder or slide him as he plays the catch, but obviously there are limits before it looks "bad". So, we have to wait until the fielder gets the cover location to play a static catch. This delay necessarily causes the throw to travel slower to "meet" the covering fielder. That being said we are constantly expanding our catch animation set to eliminate this problem...and additional coding has been done to allow for other soltuions. I think you be much happier when you see the game next...

                                2) Not to be flip, but sometimes you just can't get to every ball.

                                3) Good point. We should get some faster throw animations from pick up catches.

                                4) I have to look at this play closer.

                                5) I can't see clearly what's going on with the ball @ 2B, but I'm guessing that the hit was just not catchable for the infielder. It's tough to say...my eyes aren't very good anymore. But, the poster who mentioned that the code to selected the best fielder is not trivial is absolutely correct.

                                6) Good point. We should get some faster throw animations for outfielders from charging catches
                                "Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man"

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