Analog control suggestions, improvements or tweaks for MLB 12

[Qb]

Re: Analog control suggestions, improvements or tweaks for MLB 12

I think Blzer has some great ideas to add some depth to analog pitching.

On a much more simplistic level, my initial take on the pitching meter was that the strike area (or 'plate width') was too wide, which in turn discouraged pitches outside the strike zone. Shrinking it somewhat is a must IMO. Also adding variable width based on the pitcher's ratings would be ideal. The other suggestions could be fantastic if implemented/balanced properly.

[Bobhead]

Re: Analog control suggestions, improvements or tweaks for MLB 12

I think Nomo hit the nail right on the head with his comments on Analog Pitching, and vertical accuracy vs horizontal....

Analog Mode: Pitching
[...]

Let's take Cliff Lee, for example. He is a dominant pitcher who has good command of all of his pitches, and knows how to work both corners. Let's do a few things with him:

1) For the sake of example, let's say he's pretty good at "living on the outside of the plate." We will redesign the analog pitching interface so that flicking the R-stick straight upward will not invariably hit the center of the plate, but rather it will lean a little more towards the outer part of the plate. This is where you will see "tilt" in the interface.

2) A pitcher who throws more strikes with accuracy should get a good bump in his "plate width." This is the area between those two hash lines on the interface. If it is smaller, it leaves a larger room for error when trying to throw it over the plate. If it is larger, he will have an easier time to throw a ball for a strike. The caveat here, of course, is that people might complain he will throw too many pitches over the heart of the plate. This is where the third tactic comes in...

3) There are some pitchers who are simply good at living on the black. Sometimes they are good at doing it just on the plate, sometimes they are good at doing it just off the plate, and sometimes they can do both. Much like the sliders in this game for Control and Consistency (control says how well pitchers can live on the black for strikes, and consistency says how well pitchers can live on the black for balls), this visual will fall in line with the same thing in mind.

[...]

Still involving analog pitching, I wanted to go over what could be done to help hide the ball cursor with this feature. I kind of posed the question to Ramone and Chris earlier this year, but there wasn’t really an easy remedy to work with when the Ball Cursor option is set to Off or Fade. I think I’ve come up with something that would kind of work, though:

[A]) Don’t let us see the analog pitching meter until we actually start our pitching motion.
[B]) Let us see the analog pitching meter upon selection of our pitch, but hide the location of the ball (and, if there is a variable yellow line, hide that as well) until we actually start our pitching motion.

The issue with this was always, “How can we find a way to still make you aim the right stick somewhere while hiding the ball cursor at the same time?” This is probably the best way to do it.

First of all let me say that this is a truly excellent post.

I don't know if I like the idea you suggested in point #1. It's a nice idea in principle, but real life trends of "living on the outside" have more to do with pitching stratagies and tendencies, and less to do with actual ability, and thus I don't think this feature should be incorporated in a way so that specific pitchers are all but locked into specific styles. I'm sure real-life Cliff Lee could revamp his style and start pitching on the inside excessively, but that adjustment time in between is not to be desired, and if it ain't broke, don't fix it, so why would he do that?

Along the same lines, with the edge-of-the-plate "blended lines" idea, I wouldn't want to see the blends incorporated in a varying asymmetrical manner, based on the pitcher, because that is also based on a tendency, and I'm a strong proponent of keeping forced-tendencies out of video games as much as possible.

The changing of the width of the "strike zone" with regards to those two lines would also cause problems
a) you don't ever want it to get to a point where strikes can literally be thrown all day, in any situation, just because of a high confidence.
b) Throwing intentional balls would be quite difficult, something that is clearly not reflected in real life pitching.

That being said, I absolutely agree with the majority of your post. The blended lines thing in itself is a fantastic idea, since it would add an entire level of depth to painting the black.

I definitely like the idea of the disappearing ball icon my only concern here: I assume you mean the one at the top, immediately before you start your delivery? Hiding the other ball icon would be insanely difficult if you could not see it while trying to time your release point. I'd rather such an event be reserved for drops in confidence, to have it occur regularly would be over-compensating quite a bit.

I think I'm done now.

[Blzer]

Re: Analog control suggestions, improvements or tweaks for MLB 12

First of all let me say that this is a truly excellent post.

Thanks! I really appreciate your feedback and insight on my post. I want to rummage over some of your responses and make slight clarifications to my original intent on the new meter, though.

I don't know if I like the idea you suggested in point #1. It's a nice idea in principle, but real life trends of "living on the outside" have more to do with pitching stratagies and tendencies, and less to do with actual ability, and thus I don't think this feature should be incorporated in a way so that specific pitchers are all but locked into specific styles. I'm sure real-life Cliff Lee could revamp his style and start pitching on the inside excessively, but that adjustment time in between is not to be desired, and if it ain't broke, don't fix it, so why would he do that?

This may be true. I am simply looking for a way for the pitcher's uniqueness to be more identifiable in-game. I'm not saying this will make it easier for pitchers to hit the black (that's done with the "blended lines" feature as a part of my suggested system), but it will simply make it easier to throw outside pitches. A lot of this kind of stuff would really have to make the developers work with ratings, though. This "tweak" would require a full year kind of change, unless they're already doing these tweaks themselves.

Along the same lines, with the edge-of-the-plate "blended lines" idea, I wouldn't want to see the blends incorporated in a varying asymmetrical manner, based on the pitcher, because that is also based on a tendency, and I'm a strong proponent of keeping forced-tendencies out of video games as much as possible.

This is, unfortunately, always the toss-up. We want our players to play like themselves, but we want our input to matter. How can we find that fine line? I'm still not exactly sure. It's a toughy. However, as it stands, I think more can be done to individualize each pitcher. If this is a way to do it, I'd be all for it (after all, you still have to hit your spot).

The changing of the width of the "strike zone" with regards to those two lines would also cause problems
a) you don't ever want it to get to a point where strikes can literally be thrown all day, in any situation, just because of a high confidence.
b) Throwing intentional balls would be quite difficult, something that is clearly not reflected in real life pitching.

I especially wanted to clarify this one. The Cliff Lee revisions were purely for the sake of example, and not actually how wide I think his (or anybody's) strike zone should be. I only used it for the sake of comparison against somebody like Madson's plate width. To be honest, I actually think the widest a "strike zone" should be is how wide it currently is in MLB 11, plus or minus some tilting and blending. From there, it can only get smaller, which would help increase the number of balls thrown.

That being said, I absolutely agree with the majority of your post. The blended lines thing in itself is a fantastic idea, since it would add an entire level of depth to painting the black.

Thank you, sir!

I definitely like the idea of the disappearing ball icon my only concern here: I assume you mean the one at the top, immediately before you start your delivery? Hiding the other ball icon would be insanely difficult if you could not see it while trying to time your release point. I'd rather such an event be reserved for drops in confidence, to have it occur regularly would be over-compensating quite a bit.

What you said is correct. I am referring to the little icon on the arch of the pitching meter. It would not appear until you actually start your motion. The other ball will always be there.

Although, keep in mind that should only be removed for the pitching cursor OFF option. If we set it to FADE, once we move the icon, it will obviously fade away. To expand on this notion, I think if we turn the strike zone OFF in game, the plate width hashes should disappear on the arch of the meter, also. Currently, they do not.

That would certainly make pitching much more difficult, no?

[stealyerface]

Re: Analog control suggestions, improvements or tweaks for MLB 12

Analog Pitching: How about just scrapping the L-Stick pre-pitch aiming mechanism all together, and using the R-stick solely for the pitching process.

Example: The Pitching Meter woudl look exactly as it does, but there would be a Vertical line at the top of the meter indicating the middle of the plate. A pull down on the R-stick, going through the windup, and then a release at 12:00 would be a pitch over the heart of the plate. A pull down, and release at approx 2pm would be a ball on the inner half to a righty. The faster you flicked it forward would skew the results as risk/reward, and the better control ratings the pitcher has, the more leeway you have in your aiming via the R-stick input. There would really be no need for the baseball shaped cursor prior to the pitch, you would use the R-stick to dictate inside and outside pitches, and the release point would help to dictate up and down based on teh yellow "perfect" line. I pitched a whole game this way by never moving the pitch icon from the default middle position, and just used the R-stick to determine the pitch placement. Give it a shot... It is really nerve wracking, and requires a bit more panache than aiming at the very edge of the plate, and throwing it vertically up and down all game to hit spots. At least this option would be a nice toggleable.

~syf

[DJ]

Re: Analog control suggestions, improvements or tweaks for MLB 12

Analog Pitching: How about just scrapping the L-Stick pre-pitch aiming mechanism all together, and using the R-stick solely for the pitching process.

Example: The Pitching Meter woudl look exactly as it does, but there would be a Vertical line at the top of the meter indicating the middle of the plate. A pull down on the R-stick, going through the windup, and then a release at 12:00 would be a pitch over the heart of the plate. A pull down, and release at approx 2pm would be a ball on the inner half to a righty. The faster you flicked it forward would skew the results as risk/reward, and the better control ratings the pitcher has, the more leeway you have in your aiming via the R-stick input. There would really be no need for the baseball shaped cursor prior to the pitch, you would use the R-stick to dictate inside and outside pitches, and the release point would help to dictate up and down based on teh yellow "perfect" line. I pitched a whole game this way by never moving the pitch icon from the default middle position, and just used the R-stick to determine the pitch placement. Give it a shot... It is really nerve wracking, and requires a bit more panache than aiming at the very edge of the plate, and throwing it vertically up and down all game to hit spots. At least this option would be a nice toggleable.

~syf

Interesting idea. I like the thought of eliminating the L-stick. I've found it hard to keep the cursor out of the strike zone because of the rumble feedback; it seems that the cursor tends to drift back towards the zone the further out you push the L-stick.

By just using the R-stick, that could be a way to make it easier to pitch around batters and issue more walks.

[nomo17k]

Re: Analog control suggestions, improvements or tweaks for MLB 12

NOT FINISHED!!! I have to come back and finish later... all these grannies are having a story telling party in the cafe I'm in and purging all other customers now....

Analog Pitching: How about just scrapping the L-Stick pre-pitch aiming mechanism all together, and using the R-stick solely for the pitching process.

I first thought this would be a cool idea to reduce pitch accuracy, but then I realized that it's already the R3 that really determines all aspect of pitch location, regardless of where we place the target with L3.

The thing that differs in vertical and lateral locations is that, vertically, you always want R3 to move the same way to have a decent release since L3 determines the pitch height, and a perfect release means the pitch will go there in terms of height. But lateral pitch location is pretty much entirely depends on how you move R3; don't know if there's any penalty for missing the initial target laterally, but it really doesn't matter where the initial target was as far as where the pitch really goes laterally. And probably the biggest reason why we rarely miss wide, as already pointed out, is that the strike zone is quite wide on the pitch meter. So obviously one way to reduce the lateral pitch accuracy is to reduce that width...

But I actually think no visual aids whatsoever for analog pitching is an idea worth pursuing. (Obviously I'm not talking about having this as an only option for analog pitching. Just as we have timing and zone for button hitting, we can have multiple interfaces.)

I think there are different ways to implement this, but one way that's pretty close to what we have already is just using R3 to control both the release point and the lateral location. The release point needs to be a bit earlier to throw a high pitch, a bit later to throw a low pitch. You pull up right or left to pitch inside (to RHB) or outside. Or we can add "zone pitching," which uses L3 to determines the (visually hidden) target and use R3 for release timing.

Do you think this would be too hard? Release timing with respect to pitcher delivery would be slightly different to different pitchers, but I actually think the learning curve would be fun, not painful. Pitching practice becomes more important obviously, but it might be enjoyable to find the right release points for all different pitchers on your team. For RTTS, you obviously need to know your pitcher very well...

One thing that I noticed is that people are quite good at making adjustments (at least myself because... ugh, I'm a genius....no). When the patch came out to reduce pitch accuracy, I initially thought it was great because I started walking people, something I did rarely pre-patch. But then after racking up several more games, I wasn't walking anyone again. That's because I made enough adjustment to make myself a good control pitcher, despite the patch made it slightly harder.

So even if pitching with only a few visual aids sounds too difficult, it may actually work out. Basically zone hitters do this already.

And one reason why I kinda like this idea is that I really don't like pitch meter interface in general. Not that it's a bad interface (in fact it's good and many games use it for good reasons...), but when I pitch with meter as a visual aid, the game becomes just that (i.e., time things right to hit the visual mark) and I don't feel like pitching baseball. When I pitch, I want to be looking at the catcher's mitt, not an imaginary visual aid.

For a higher difficulty level, I think this may add a cool interface......

[nomo17k]

Re: Analog control suggestions, improvements or tweaks for MLB 12

Analog Mode: Fielding

Biggest obstacle when using this particular mode: Not that there's anything wrong with the current system, but I feel the fielding and base running are parts of the game that can get spiced up a bit some way or another... I think part of the issue is that these two parts of the game uses user inputs as "commands" (via preloading) rather than directly dictating actions on the field. This is pretty different from pitching and hitting, where we have a lot of direct controls on how players move.

Any improvements to the mechanic that could help overcome the above obstacle:

Don't know if this should go here as analog suggestions or general gameplay suggestions, but...

(1) Some user input for "catching" the ball. Currently many parts of fielding is automatic or AI controlled. Making an error for the most part appears to be based on a dice roll. What about making user do something, like press a button, when catching the ball? If the time is way off, it would increase the chance of committing an error, for example.

(2) Momentum -- this is fairly good I think... I enjoy more I learn how to control the player momentum. However, I think the current momentum system kicks in only when user input goes almost opposite to the direction in which the player is currently moving. So when I "circle" L3 so that a player goes in round unphysically (many kids online make this kind of funky moves to kill time on the field haha), there's not much resistance in doing so. Similarly, I can almost suddenly make a perpendicular move, which is unphysical... the player should keep moving in the original direction a bit...

I don't wanna go in detail about physics but the devs can improve the momentum system by considering the momentum in terms of perpendicular vectors, one in the forward direction with respect to the player and another one perpendicular to it. As long as the L3 is not pushed in exactly the same direction as the player movement, there should be momentum left toward the.original direction. I think that will make the momentum system even more realistic...

Anything you feel is missing or needs to be taken away from the mechanic to make it function better:

If applicable, is the visual feedback/graphics ample when using this mechanic. If not what is lacking or needs to be changed?

Are there any tutorials or practice modes you feel that are needed or changed to gain a better understanding of the mechanic? Oh fielding really would benefit from good documentations and tutorials given the not-so-apparent complexity that we have to discover by playing a lot. There was a major discussion on the slow animations thread earlier in the year...

Misc:

[nemesis04]

Re: Analog control suggestions, improvements or tweaks for MLB 12

Are there any tutorials or practice modes you feel that are needed or changed to gain a better understanding of the mechanic? Oh fielding really would benefit from good documentations and tutorials given the not-so-apparent complexity that we have to discover by playing a lot. There was a major discussion on the slow animations thread earlier in the year...Misc:

Would there be any interest in an interactive tutorial where it first showed you how to perform the function and then had the user try to mimic the command? Also where it would give you visual feedback on how well or poorly you performed the function?

[nomo17k]

Re: Analog control suggestions, improvements or tweaks for MLB 12

Would there be any interest in an interactive tutorial where it first showed you how to perform the function and then had the user try to mimic the command? Also where it would give you visual feedback on how well or poorly you performed the function?

This would be definitely cool.

However, I think it needs not be something to added entirely new. We already have all these practice modes, mainly for RTTS right now which are quite useful already. But quite a few people have said that similar practice modes for the "regular" gameplay would be welcome. Many guys abandoned analog for fielding purely because they don't know how to use it effectively, and perhaps didn't feel like learning by playing their franchise games, etc.

As I have become more conscious about controlling player momentum/throw strengths, etc., I'm now realizing how rich the fielding animation really is. We induce a lot of slow animations without realizing we have to play certain ways for the game to "choose" appropriate animations.

I think fielding practice modes that make us realize this (make us make certain plays certain ways to trigger right animation, and then you get higher score, etc.) would be very cool.

[sandmac]

Re: Analog control suggestions, improvements or tweaks for MLB 12

I'd like to second this, as someone who bats from the pitcher view and still enjoys using the analog controls. Because the game doesn't adjust to your view, swinging "inside" or "outside" is reversed. An option to only have to go "down-and-up" would be really nice. Thanks!

Great post. I too hit from behind the pitcher and have trouble swinging the opposite way to influence hit direction.

[Cozar]

Re: Analog control suggestions, improvements or tweaks for MLB 12

Analog Mode: Fielding
(1) Some user input for "catching" the ball. Currently many parts of fielding is automatic or AI controlled. Making an error for the most part appears to be based on a dice roll. What about making user do something, like press a button, when catching the ball? If the time is way off, it would increase the chance of committing an error, for example.

Good idea. Let me expand on the idea.

Pre-loading could be the catch button. The goal would be to time the pre-load to reach max power just as the ball is caught and to release the throw button at the moment the ball is caught. The error results would be:

1. Releasing too early results in a fielding error (Player tries to throw before completing the catch).

2. Releasing too late results in a late throw (ball sticks in the glove, double pump, extra hop animation).

3. Starting Pre-load too early (max power reached before the catch) results in a throwing error (too much power).

4. Starting pre-load too late (max power not reached at catch) results in a weak throw or hopper.


As an alternative, they could just add a catch button so you can pre-load then press catch with good time. Simple version would be R1 jumping catch, R2 diving/sliding catch, x normal catch. Advanced version would include triangle above the head catch, circle/square normal catch, x low catch.

[Heroesandvillains]

Re: Analog control suggestions, improvements or tweaks for MLB 12

I think Blzer has some great ideas to add some depth to analog pitching.

On a much more simplistic level, my initial take on the pitching meter was that the strike area (or 'plate width') was too wide, which in turn discouraged pitches outside the strike zone. Shrinking it somewhat is a must IMO. Also adding variable width based on the pitcher's ratings would be ideal. The other suggestions could be fantastic if implemented/balanced properly.

Precisely!

QB! The man with the infamous post I think I've quoted on here for quite some time!

I love the idea of the plate width changing on the meter; a direct correlation with the pitcher's control and BB/9 rating. I think it's an ideal solution. Blazr has some wonderful suggestions too, but this one in itself would go a long way in increasing wildness...targeted specifically at wild pitchers. Great idea.

I can understand the argument behind an invisible aspect to the system...especially since that would allow for a uniform system where player ratings would be the primary factor dictating control (like the other interfaces). I just think a variable plate width could be an interesting avenue for SCEA to explore.

[stealyerface]

Re: Analog control suggestions, improvements or tweaks for MLB 12

Adding to this, I thought the addition of the eight warmup pitches were a great idea to get the user used to the motion, and feel of the pitcher they are throwing with.

How about a "Take Infield" option before the game start, that would allow for some fielding practice, based on the conditions for that particular game. Wet infield, turf, dry day, cold night and slippery hands...

I would not like it to be a mini-game, but to at least get the feel for the mechanics after a lay off.

~syf

[WAZ]

Re: Analog control suggestions, improvements or tweaks for MLB 12

Analog Mode: Hitting

Biggest obstacle when using this particular mode:
Feels a little "empty" or "airy"... no "oomph" when you make contact... so despite the improved step/swing timing mechanic, it ends of feeling less tactile than even the traditional buttons.

Any improvements to the mechanic that could help overcome the above obstacle:
Add a little force feedback (vibration) when you make contact with the ball. This sounds minor, but I really believe it would go a long way toward making analog hitting more tactile and immersive. A light buzz for when you foul tip it, a solid jolt when you make solid contact. You'd really know when you made contact or completely whiffed -- which isn't always that apparent when using analog hitting.

The strength of the vibration could be easily based on the quality of contact and/or where you hit it on the bat (i.e. one in on the hands or off the end of the bat is not going to have the satisfying "oomph" that a solid hit off the sweet spot would). This would be a subtle but BIG addition to the hitting.

[WAZ]

Re: Analog control suggestions, improvements or tweaks for MLB 12

I guess this applies to both button AND analog setups:

Mode: Fielding

Biggest obstacle when using this particular mode:

#1) SUPER suction when you get near the ball (obviously mostly noticeable on fly balls). Once you enter the Catch Region, it's basically an inescapable "molasses pit" and you are locked in to catching the ball with minimal-to-no effort, well before the ball gets there. You don't really have to be anywhere near where the ball will land, taking any thrill/skill out of it, and leaving it to the CPU to basically auto-catch everything.

Once on a blooper to the outfield, I took my hands off the controller and the fielder automatically jogged about 10 feet to his left, lined up for the ball, and fielded it cleanly. This was on Assisted, not Auto... I didn't even have to touch anything and my fielder did it all (except throwing) for me.

#2) Also, lots of double-clutching and/or delayed animations when using the Throw Meter in any capacity. This was never a problem previously, so it may be a bug in '11? If not, perhaps the new intended timing is not quite as ironed out as it could be. Turning off the Throw Meter makes animations silky smooth again, and eliminates the constant throwing delays.

#3) Still the big, distracting, swirling baseball icon, showing where the ball will land.



Any improvements to the mechanic that could help overcome the above obstacle:

#1) Unassisted manual fielding. Let us get TO the ball, where it's actually landing to make the play, without taking auto control of our fielder from us 5 seconds before the ball lands.

#2) May just be a bug fix to make the throwing like it was in previous years. Again, works ok when the throw meter is off. Otherwise may just need some tweaking to the new throw timing/animations to make them more responsive.

#3) Instead of the big swirling baseball icon, why not a simple circle or "large shadow" that shrinks as the ball gets closer? Or a little circle that slowly fades in the closer the ball gets?

You stand in the catch region, and if you're a really good fielder, the ball's actual landing spot appears quickly as a dot -- representing someone who gets great reads on the ball and knows where it will land. If you have lower fielder ratings the dot may not fade in till almost the last second -- representing the higher possibility that you misjudge a ball and may have to adjust at the last instance, i.e. Soriano.

#4) Adding a "Catch" button could make fielding much more interesting. For example, tapping R1 (or maybe clicking in L3 or R3) right when the ball gets to you, to squeeze the glove on the ball. A little timing window would be necessary, with good fielders having a bigger window (easier and more likely to make the catch), while a rookie would have less time to time it (making it more likely you squeeze the glove too early and brick a fly ball).

Who knows, this may be too radical, but I imagine feeling more immersed in the game when I have to actually CATCH the ball. This would make flyouts more interesting (I mean, yeah, it's routine, but a player still has to physically catch the ball)... and make a hot grounder that you snag yourself with a perfectly timed button-press catch, very exciting.

As great as the game is, I think fielding is still its weakest aspect... due in large part to a feeling of not having a lot of control over your fielders. Maybe some of these things would help. Thanks for everything!