WTNY's 2015 Pitch Edits ( Please read the FAQ )

[rjackson]

Re: WTNY's 2015 Pitch Edits ( Please read the FAQ )

Over the years of using pitch seanjeezy's pitch edits, the movement on pitches with movement being less hasn't had any less effect of getting hitters out either by K or weak hits.

Interesting. I found the opposite to be true. When B_Ma I think it was confirmed it a couple years ago that the control and movement ratings only apply to played games (not simmed) and that movement influenced whiffs, it basically confirmed what I was seeing. I'd still get K's but I'd be bottom of the league with a decent staff.


Just to continue discussion, Brooks seems to base things off of known grips, right? I recall redsfan doing pitch edits for '12 or '13 but most people didn't try them because of seanjeezy's rep and also they didn't like how he'd assign some pitches. He gave King Felix a splitter back then because it matched the movement and back then splitters got more whiffs in the game than changes (opposite might be true now). He had some out of the box thinking that I was able to appreciate. I didn't think of it as "Felix doesn't throw a splitter" like many did. I thought of it as that was how his pitch behaved. There were plenty of others that he did like that as well.


That said, I know Bumgarner gets a good whiff% on his "slutter" and WTNY has it as a cutter with a low movement rating. Maybe I'll edit him and play a few to see how that whiff% looks compared to SCEA's slider they gave him. Also, to see how often he throws it not being assigned as his primary pitch (I think they did that to get him to thrown it more in the game).

[Houston]

Re: WTNY's 2015 Pitch Edits ( Please read the FAQ )

When will your set be out?

Ours will be out sometimes this month. If you want to know more you can look for the MLB on FOX: 2015 Opening Day Roster thread on OS. I don't want a lot of discussion here about the rosters on someone else s thread and take the attention away WTNY great work.

[WaitTilNextYear]

Re: WTNY's 2015 Pitch Edits ( Please read the FAQ )

Three questions regarding these pitch edits:

1. Do these edits change overall ratings of pitchers? Or does it just effect the movement/velocity/pitch type/etc of the pitches that they throw?

2. For those of us who play multiple year franchise, do these pitch edits throw off balance in later years of the franchise? To be more specific, after 2-3 years are rosters loaded with young pitchers because drafted players come in on a different rating scale then current pitchers who are adjusted with these edits?

3. Are all minor league pitchers included on this spreadsheet as well? I know all major league pitchers are included, but for those using OSFM as a base, I am curious if all the minor league pitchers will have these same edits. (Again, just curious if these edits effect the SCEA "ecosystem")

Special thanks to the OP for putting these together, as well as all forum members inputting the data!

Yeah, to follow up on what teeds said...unfortunately the original answers you got before teeds were pretty much all incorrect...

1. Yes. OVRs do change. As much as 5 points. More likely 1 or 2. Some guys go up, but most go down. The answer to this question is in the FAQ already.

2. As I mentioned on the previous page, pitch edits are still being entered. I have tested single players in sims and played games but not league wide stuff.

3. No. There are basically zero minor league pitch edits. The spreadsheet is open source so you are free to look at the names in it.

[Houston]

Re: WTNY's 2015 Pitch Edits ( Please read the FAQ )

I have pitch edits seanjeezy has done dating back to 2012-2014 if anyone wants them to edit your minor league players. But I would definitely use WTNY for MLB guys and possibly some AAA guys. Anyone not on WTNY list I would just use seanjeezys edits for those players. Well thats what we are doing just wanted to pass the info along.

[WaitTilNextYear]

Re: WTNY's 2015 Pitch Edits ( Please read the FAQ )

Interesting. I found the opposite to be true. When B_Ma I think it was confirmed it a couple years ago that the control and movement ratings only apply to played games (not simmed) and that movement influenced whiffs, it basically confirmed what I was seeing. I'd still get K's but I'd be bottom of the league with a decent staff.


Just to continue discussion, Brooks seems to base things off of known grips, right? I recall redsfan doing pitch edits for '12 or '13 but most people didn't try them because of seanjeezy's rep and also they didn't like how he'd assign some pitches. He gave King Felix a splitter back then because it matched the movement and back then splitters got more whiffs in the game than changes (opposite might be true now). He had some out of the box thinking that I was able to appreciate. I didn't think of it as "Felix doesn't throw a splitter" like many did. I thought of it as that was how his pitch behaved. There were plenty of others that he did like that as well.


That said, I know Bumgarner gets a good whiff% on his "slutter" and WTNY has it as a cutter with a low movement rating. Maybe I'll edit him and play a few to see how that whiff% looks compared to SCEA's slider they gave him. Also, to see how often he throws it not being assigned as his primary pitch (I think they did that to get him to thrown it more in the game).

1. If you are at the bottom of the league in strikeouts, I am not going to be a jerk and tell you to "pitch better" but it might actually be something to look at with regard to your sliders? Contact and timing etc.. can have an impact.

2. Brooks has a beta feature that mentions grips, but it's hardly exhaustive. All the pitch data on Brooks is predominantly based/classified on movement and velocity, but with a grip thrown in for good measure in some cases. So, grip has very little/nothing to do with how Brooks classifies things in their tabulated data.

3. The pitch edits are to make each pitch have good fidelity to what the pitches actually do (pitch type, velocity, movement, and usage) in real life. The whole 'outcomes' side of the equation is another matter entirely. I'm completely against juicing up a pitch just to make a guy strike a bunch of fools out. For example, I'd rather have a Bumgarner pitch that is represented more realistically than some canned pitch that will strike a bunch of fools out. For reference, Bumgarner's "slutter" has almost no lateral movement (0.40 in) and the movement rating of both the slider and the cutter in the game really means it's lateral movement. By the way, the "whiff %" on that pitch is only 11.77%, which is actually only Bumgarner's 4th best pitch in that regard. I think here is another situation where the "perception" of what we've heard when watching games and conventional broadcasters making conventional comments does not match what is really happening. Bumgarner also throws this pitch 13% less often than his 4-seamer, so the fact that anyone would put that as his primary pitch is ridiculous and unrealistic regardless of intent.

[WaitTilNextYear]

Re: WTNY's 2015 Pitch Edits ( Please read the FAQ )

I got in a few games for a change as it seems that all I've been doing is editing since the game came out. I was looking mainly at the pitching after pitch edits using my [unpublished] sliders that I am also working on. Here are the stats mainly focusing on the starting pitching lines.

Game 1:

NYY 7 at SEA 0 (me)

Tanaka (cpu): 9 IP, 5 H, 0 R, 2 BB, 4 K, 88 pitches, 63% strikes

Felix (me): 7+ IP, 10 H, 6 R, 2 BB, 4 K, 109 pitches, 64% strikes

*Brian McCann is a beast. 2 homers off Felix
*Tanaka was a groundball/double play monster with the splitter..I hit zero line drives in this game


Game 2:

LAD 4 (me) at TOR 2

Greinke (me): 9 IP, 4 H, 2 R, 2 BB, 5 K, 121 pitches, 60% strikes

Buehrle (cpu): 6+ IP, 8 H, 1 R, 1 BB, 2 K, 74 pitches, 72% strikes

*Bautista ruined my shutout bid with a 1 out HR in the 9th
*Manager hook still needs work as Buehrle shouldn't have been lifted so soon...gotta love that strike % for Buehrle


Game 3:

TB 6 at NYY 2 (me)

Karns (cpu): 6+ IP, 5 H, 2 R, 0 BB, 9 K, 94 pitches, 68% strikes

Eovaldi (me): 6.2+ IP, 7 H, 3 R, 3 BB, 8 K, 121 pitches, 60% strikes

*Karns was filthy
*Boxberger's delivery is funky as heck

[jermars666]

Re: WTNY's 2015 Pitch Edits ( Please read the FAQ )

WTNY when doing the edits for Oakland for the revision roster I noticed 2 mistypes for 2 pitchers. Both on pitch 4. Barry Zito is shown throwing a 44.90mph 2SM fastball and Brad Mills is throwing a 1.79mph Cutter. I don't know if you fixed this after cultbuscis downloaded it to our working sheet, but I just happened to notice those errors. When working on the pitch edits I got the right numbers and such but just looks like there was a type-o there when you posted them.

[WaitTilNextYear]

Re: WTNY's 2015 Pitch Edits ( Please read the FAQ )

WTNY when doing the edits for Oakland for the revision roster I noticed 2 mistypes for 2 pitchers. Both on pitch 4. Barry Zito is shown throwing a 44.90mph 2SM fastball and Brad Mills is throwing a 1.79mph Cutter. I don't know if you fixed this after cultbuscis downloaded it to our working sheet, but I just happened to notice those errors. When working on the pitch edits I got the right numbers and such but just looks like there was a type-o there when you posted them.

Yes those are both typos. Zito's should be changed to 84.25 mph and Mills to 82.31 mph. Thanks for pointing them out.

[CaseIH]

Re: WTNY's 2015 Pitch Edits ( Please read the FAQ )

Interesting. I found the opposite to be true. When B_Ma I think it was confirmed it a couple years ago that the control and movement ratings only apply to played games (not simmed) and that movement influenced whiffs, it basically confirmed what I was seeing. I'd still get K's but I'd be bottom of the league with a decent staff.


Just to continue discussion, Brooks seems to base things off of known grips, right? I recall redsfan doing pitch edits for '12 or '13 but most people didn't try them because of seanjeezy's rep and also they didn't like how he'd assign some pitches. He gave King Felix a splitter back then because it matched the movement and back then splitters got more whiffs in the game than changes (opposite might be true now). He had some out of the box thinking that I was able to appreciate. I didn't think of it as "Felix doesn't throw a splitter" like many did. I thought of it as that was how his pitch behaved. There were plenty of others that he did like that as well.


That said, I know Bumgarner gets a good whiff% on his "slutter" and WTNY has it as a cutter with a low movement rating. Maybe I'll edit him and play a few to see how that whiff% looks compared to SCEA's slider they gave him. Also, to see how often he throws it not being assigned as his primary pitch (I think they did that to get him to thrown it more in the game).

That's interesting, an since a dev said it has a effect then I would take his word for it.


Personally I cant say I felt any difference, but I probably have a small sample size with the stock edits, as I don't really get into the game until pitch edits are out.


IRL though, its not so much the amount of break on a pitch but the late break that gets whiffs on.


If this is the case then SCEA needs to change their way because its not a true replication of pitch movement by jacking up movement to get K's.


I still think I prefer the pitch edits because they are have the realistic movement, and I can adjust AI hitting sliders if I feel Im not getting realistic K results with pitchers, although I do hate to do that. Since this actually don't effect sim results that's probably the best way for me to do it anyway. I always thought K9 is what effected both sim and gameplayed results, but it must not be, as I trust a Show devs not to lie like you will see out of others sports companies.

[rjackson]

Re: WTNY's 2015 Pitch Edits ( Please read the FAQ )

1. If you are at the bottom of the league in strikeouts, I am not going to be a jerk and tell you to "pitch better" but it might actually be something to look at with regard to your sliders? Contact and timing etc.. can have an impact.

2. Brooks has a beta feature that mentions grips, but it's hardly exhaustive. All the pitch data on Brooks is predominantly based/classified on movement and velocity, but with a grip thrown in for good measure in some cases. So, grip has very little/nothing to do with how Brooks classifies things in their tabulated data.

3. The pitch edits are to make each pitch have good fidelity to what the pitches actually do (pitch type, velocity, movement, and usage) in real life. The whole 'outcomes' side of the equation is another matter entirely. I'm completely against juicing up a pitch just to make a guy strike a bunch of fools out. For example, I'd rather have a Bumgarner pitch that is represented more realistically than some canned pitch that will strike a bunch of fools out. For reference, Bumgarner's "slutter" has almost no lateral movement (0.40 in) and the movement rating of both the slider and the cutter in the game really means it's lateral movement. By the way, the "whiff %" on that pitch is only 11.77%, which is actually only Bumgarner's 4th best pitch in that regard. I think here is another situation where the "perception" of what we've heard when watching games and conventional broadcasters making conventional comments does not match what is really happening. Bumgarner also throws this pitch 13% less often than his 4-seamer, so the fact that anyone would put that as his primary pitch is ridiculous and unrealistic regardless of intent.

Prefacing "I'm not going to be a ..." is essentially disguising your acknowledgment that you realize you are about to be a ... Anyways, you make my point for me. With the OSFM rosters, I had no problems with realistic K's. with pitch edits, my team RA was so low I needed to be on Legend. Things like hits allowed and team ERA, I led the league. I had to raise CpU solid hits an contact but lower CPU timing which got me more K's.

I get that you are trying to replicate repertoires and true movement for each pitcher. I am merely saying that you are also sacrificing another area of realism to do so and that people need to be prepared to adjust sliders to equalize the lowered movement ratings. You might call it juiced which is a poor and ignorant hyperbole in this case if you ask me. However, the 'outcome' is just as important to a sim as the hmov of a pitch. They are married in the programming, like it or not.

I read the FAQs but that was a few days ago. I see you graded control on a bell curve, is that right? Did you do the same on movement?

[rjackson]

Re: WTNY's 2015 Pitch Edits ( Please read the FAQ )

Case, the /9 ratings affect both sim and play but the individualized pitch ratings only affect play. Hey, if it feels right to you by all means use them. WTNY put a ton of work into them and my criticism, if that is how it is perceived, is purely constructive in intent. I debated a few days saying anything at all and probably shouldn't have but another post made it an interating segue into what I hoped might be a porvocative and educational conversation.

PS please forgive my typos. Me and my phone don't get along!

[WaitTilNextYear]

Re: WTNY's 2015 Pitch Edits ( Please read the FAQ )

I am merely saying that you are also sacrificing another area of realism to do so and that people need to be prepared to adjust sliders to equalize the lowered movement ratings. You might call it juiced which is a poor and ignorant hyperbole in this case if you ask me. However, the 'outcome' is just as important to a sim as the hmov of a pitch. They are married in the programming, like it or not.

No, I am not "sacrificing another area of realism." Adding in how the pitches move to the best ability the game allows is not sacrificing anything. Sliders are there to compensate for things including the lack of realism inherent in the game when it ships. The combination of pitch edits and making the sliders so that it plays a good game of baseball is exactly my approach and there is nothing unrealistic about that. If you have to adjust contact down a click to get your strikeouts where you want them, that's much preferable to having contact a click higher with pitches that hardly resemble the real thing. Nobody cares what the sliders are as long as they allow you to play sim baseball if that's what you desire. It's the exact same reason people clamor over realistic rosters or pitch edits--people want the game to be more sim.

[CaseIH]

Re: WTNY's 2015 Pitch Edits ( Please read the FAQ )

Case, the /9 ratings affect both sim and play but the individualized pitch ratings only affect play. Hey, if it feels right to you by all means use them. WTNY put a ton of work into them and my criticism, if that is how it is perceived, is purely constructive in intent. I debated a few days saying anything at all and probably shouldn't have but another post made it an interating segue into what I hoped might be a porvocative and educational conversation.

PS please forgive my typos. Me and my phone don't get along!

It is unfortunate that to SCEA does such a poor job with pitcher repertoires that if you want realistic repertoires and movement on those pitches that you actually have to adjust the hitting sliders to compensate for realistic pitching.
Thankfully the pitch edits being made dont effect all the simulated games in franchise mode, or we would all be stuck with SCEA poor pitching repertoires to make sure stats are accurate.


It has crossed my mine to just go with SCEA pitches since you pointed it out to me that it does have a impact on your K's, but I just don't think I could stand using them as bad as they are and get frustrated by lack of realism on pitches. So if I feel Im having to low K numbers, then I will just adjust sliders accordingly to get the results realistic.


The only pitch I have ever noticed not being as powerful as far as K's go with pitch edits is the 4 seam FB, especially when it comes to Chapman's 4 seamer. So what I do with that is just up the movement to 99 on his FB. The other breaking pitches Ive never really noticed a drop off for K's with using pitch edits, but I Have actually never played a franchise without pitch edits, to actually compare any difference in K's.


What needs to happen is SCEA gets this right from the start, so people don't have to do so much to get pitching to replicate real life repertoires and movement. I do like how they changed movement this yr, and repertoires are actually better the past 2 years than they use to be, but still overall its a bad job done by them on this. This is the only issue I have ever had with this game, as it is overall a great replication of baseball.

[rjackson]

Re: WTNY's 2015 Pitch Edits ( Please read the FAQ )

No, I am not "sacrificing another area of realism." Adding in how the pitches move to the best ability the game allows is not sacrificing anything. Sliders are there to compensate for things including the lack of realism inherent in the game when it ships. The combination of pitch edits and making the sliders so that it plays a good game of baseball is exactly my approach and there is nothing unrealistic about that. If you have to adjust contact down a click to get your strikeouts where you want them, that's much preferable to having contact a click higher with pitches that hardly resemble the real thing. Nobody cares what the sliders are as long as they allow you to play sim baseball if that's what you desire. It's the exact same reason people clamor over realistic rosters or pitch edits--people want the game to be more sim.

Sliders can't compensate for neutered pitches. If you take a pitchers out pitch and lower the movement on it, it can become ineffective as an out pitch and that pitcher is now completely changed. It is being reflected in the OVR's dropping and you seem to have not tested this thoroughly and are attempting to minimize the idea that you have altered what someone else called "the game's ecosystem". It is a valid concern that you are dismissing merely with the explanation that you are attempting to make it more realistic.

Let's look at Bumgarner's cutter. This is straight from Brooks: His cutter generates an extremely high number of swings & misses compared to other pitchers' cutters. Also, when you click on usage and outcomes then whiff% on the left, it shows that his cutter has been his best pitch to get whiffs contrary to your previous claim. It gets 19.33%. The average whiff rate for all pitches combined is 20.9% making it about an average pitch overall but his best for whiffs. You gave it about a 30 movement, making the quality of it equal to a AA pitcher's average pitch when it is most definitely a MLB quality pitch. This is no fault of your own as the hmov/vmov shows a lower break but whiff % is inherently tied to the movement rating in the game. Which leads to my next questions you never answered. Your FAQ's state that control AND movement ratings were determined via comparison to others throwing the same pitch. Is control done on a bell curve? Why would you do movement like that instead of comparing movement in game? Instead of replicating 6" of break you are replicating that it breaks more than so and so's pitch? That's what I got out of it.

The batter-pitcher duel is the heart of the game and I applaud your efforts to improve upon that. I am trying to help others make an informed decision on whether to use them or not AND help to improve upon them further.

[knich]

Re: WTNY's 2015 Pitch Edits ( Please read the FAQ )

My only question is since these edits are only done to MLB players, if a minor league player is called up, will the minor league player be a better pitcher than the established MLB because the minor league player will still be on SCEA ratings?