Setting pitch count limits using pitcher stamina rating

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  • The Kid 24
    It's Show Time!
    • Jan 2007
    • 14765

    #31
    Re: Setting pitch count limits using pitcher stamina rating

    Originally posted by skinscapswiz
    Sure thing bro
    Awesome, thank you!

    Sent from my LG G2 using Tapatalk
    Milwaukee Brewers | Green Bay Packers | North Carolina Tar Heels | Wisconsin Badgers

    Comment

    • oldtimey
      Rookie
      • Apr 2005
      • 97

      #32
      Re: Setting pitch count limits using pitcher stamina rating

      Originally posted by The Kid 24
      Great work here skins...

      Any chance you could finish the spreadsheet down to maybe 20? So we could make these edits to bullpen guys.
      If I may interject, the bullpen is a whole different animal. You can get realistic bullpen IP numbers if you use the stamina rating for your MRP/SU/CL as the maximum amount of pitches you would have him throw. With the reliever stamina slider at 0, he will not get close to this number usually, and he will pitch on consecutive days when he doesn't. So if you don't want your reliever to exceed 30 pitches during a single outing, then his stamina rating is 30. If you want him to throw no more than 25 pitches, then his stamina rating is 25. For my franchise, all of my relievers are between 28-35. Somewhere, maybe Fangraphs, or Baseball Reference, or perhaps Brooks Baseball, there is a record of pitches thrown per relief appearance. This should he your source for realistic pitcher-by-pitcher data. You will see the results when the cpu is using a reliever for a multiple inning outing. He may go 1.1, 1.2 or 2.0 IP, but the cpu will go the pen when his stamina rating (max number of pitches) is reached. If this happens, that reliever will usually get the next day off. But I have been surprised when the cpu brings the maxed out pitcher in the next game; but only to face one batter in a desparate situation (i.e., running out of pitchers).

      Comment

      • skinscapswiz
        Rookie
        • Aug 2011
        • 14

        #33
        Re: Setting pitch count limits using pitcher stamina rating

        Thanks man, that's exactly what I mentioned I haven't adjusted for. My main issue was with the starting pitchers having complete games all the time. As far as the bullpen, I would love to make those adjustments with OSFM comes out. I want to make it have some statistical foundation, so I'll play around with the formulas given the notion you stated. Stamina rating for CP/RP = number of pitches we'd expect them to throw. I still think their actual stamina rating should factor into this, so perhaps i'll create a separate formula based off that rating while attempting to get it closer to # of pitches thrown

        Comment

        • The Kid 24
          It's Show Time!
          • Jan 2007
          • 14765

          #34
          Re: Setting pitch count limits using pitcher stamina rating

          Oldtimey bud... For us guys who play User vs CPU... These edits will still work with User SP stamina being at 4, correct?
          Milwaukee Brewers | Green Bay Packers | North Carolina Tar Heels | Wisconsin Badgers

          Comment

          • oldtimey
            Rookie
            • Apr 2005
            • 97

            #35
            Re: Setting pitch count limits using pitcher stamina rating

            Originally posted by The Kid 24
            Oldtimey bud... For us guys who play User vs CPU... These edits will still work with User SP stamina being at 4, correct?
            I don't know. I never play the cpu. But give it a go and let me know. But realize this: when you make these adjustments to your stamina ratings and put your starter stamina at 4, DO NOT expect your starter, ANY starter to be strong for 100 pitches and then start to decline. Now, he will pitch 100, 110, even 120 pitches, but he will stumble to those numbers. This means more contact, missed locations, loud fouls, etc., because your best pitchers will start tiring at 80-85 pitches. These adjustments are based on how the cpu manages its staff, so the AI already knows this. This is more realistic, in my opinion. The cpu will have the advantage if you are slow to warm up pitchers, for example. I don't know if you "human" players can take the intensity (lol!), but give it a try. It seems that it would create a bigger challenge for you as a pitching strategist and a manager/pitching coach.

            Comment

            • kcsalx
              Rookie
              • Mar 2016
              • 75

              #36
              Re: Setting pitch count limits using pitcher stamina rating

              Originally posted by oldtimey
              If I may interject, the bullpen is a whole different animal. You can get realistic bullpen IP numbers if you use the stamina rating for your MRP/SU/CL as the maximum amount of pitches you would have him throw. With the reliever stamina slider at 0, he will not get close to this number usually, and he will pitch on consecutive days when he doesn't. So if you don't want your reliever to exceed 30 pitches during a single outing, then his stamina rating is 30. If you want him to throw no more than 25 pitches, then his stamina rating is 25. For my franchise, all of my relievers are between 28-35. Somewhere, maybe Fangraphs, or Baseball Reference, or perhaps Brooks Baseball, there is a record of pitches thrown per relief appearance. This should he your source for realistic pitcher-by-pitcher data. You will see the results when the cpu is using a reliever for a multiple inning outing. He may go 1.1, 1.2 or 2.0 IP, but the cpu will go the pen when his stamina rating (max number of pitches) is reached. If this happens, that reliever will usually get the next day off. But I have been surprised when the cpu brings the maxed out pitcher in the next game; but only to face one batter in a desparate situation (i.e., running out of pitchers).
              I would still like to see a chart of bullpen usage stamina down to 20 based on inning.

              Comment

              • oldtimey
                Rookie
                • Apr 2005
                • 97

                #37
                Re: Setting pitch count limits using pitcher stamina rating

                Originally posted by kcsalx
                I would still like to see a chart of bullpen usage stamina down to 20 based on inning.
                I am not the chart guy. I give my bullpen guys ratings of 28-35 based more on my knowledge of how they are used by their teams than based on actual stats The range 28-35 keeps them at a max of 2 IP, if needed, but rarely do they pitch more. In season sims, most relievers will end up averaging around 1 IP/G or less and that is my goal.

                Comment

                • nola2728
                  Rookie
                  • Jan 2013
                  • 40

                  #38
                  Re: Setting pitch count limits using pitcher stamina rating

                  When you say human starting pitcher slider is that up 4 fromzero setting or up four from default settings. I just played a play now game and set o'day stamina to "1" and threw 28 pitches before I got the tired warning and that was with sliders set from 0 to 4 up human starter stamina and slider bar set to 0 for human relief stamina.

                  Comment

                  • The Kid 24
                    It's Show Time!
                    • Jan 2007
                    • 14765

                    #39
                    Re: Setting pitch count limits using pitcher stamina rating

                    Originally posted by oldtimey
                    I don't know. I never play the cpu. But give it a go and let me know. But realize this: when you make these adjustments to your stamina ratings and put your starter stamina at 4, DO NOT expect your starter, ANY starter to be strong for 100 pitches and then start to decline. Now, he will pitch 100, 110, even 120 pitches, but he will stumble to those numbers. This means more contact, missed locations, loud fouls, etc., because your best pitchers will start tiring at 80-85 pitches. These adjustments are based on how the cpu manages its staff, so the AI already knows this. This is more realistic, in my opinion. The cpu will have the advantage if you are slow to warm up pitchers, for example. I don't know if you "human" players can take the intensity (lol!), but give it a try. It seems that it would create a bigger challenge for you as a pitching strategist and a manager/pitching coach.
                    Ok thanks bro!

                    I still plan on making the changes but I'll probably put User SP Stamina at 5 or 6... More likely 5.

                    Sent from my LG G2 using Tapatalk
                    Milwaukee Brewers | Green Bay Packers | North Carolina Tar Heels | Wisconsin Badgers

                    Comment

                    • The Kid 24
                      It's Show Time!
                      • Jan 2007
                      • 14765

                      #40
                      Re: Setting pitch count limits using pitcher stamina rating

                      Originally posted by nola2728
                      When you say human starting pitcher slider is that up 4 fromzero setting or up four from default settings. I just played a play now game and set o'day stamina to "1" and threw 28 pitches before I got the tired warning and that was with sliders set from 0 to 4 up human starter stamina and slider bar set to 0 for human relief stamina.
                      He means from 0.
                      Milwaukee Brewers | Green Bay Packers | North Carolina Tar Heels | Wisconsin Badgers

                      Comment

                      • rumplefust
                        Just started!
                        • Apr 2016
                        • 4

                        #41
                        Re: Setting pitch count limits using pitcher stamina rating

                        Long time lurker of this site for OSFM and trade discussions but when I found this thread I finally needed to make an account. I think this is amazing and have been looking for a 'solution' to the complete game issue in franchise. Using OSFM 1.5 I went and altered the stam on all starting pitchers and only have 2 or 3 at 85 stam; Kershaw, Bum, someone else. A majority of starters are in the 70s with sliders set to 4 for starters and 0 for relievers and manager hook at 5. While in franchise I only play games for my main team, Yankees, but use 30 team control so I sim the other games for other teams. With that said I am still noticing a number of complete games, mainly shutouts. Does anyone know if the sliders work when simming games such as pitcher stam and manager hook? If so, what have others found using this method of lowering stam when it comes to complete games during the year.

                        Comment

                        • Mike Lowe
                          All Star
                          • Dec 2006
                          • 5287

                          #42
                          Re: Setting pitch count limits using pitcher stamina rating

                          Originally posted by rumplefust
                          Long time lurker of this site for OSFM and trade discussions but when I found this thread I finally needed to make an account. I think this is amazing and have been looking for a 'solution' to the complete game issue in franchise. Using OSFM 1.5 I went and altered the stam on all starting pitchers and only have 2 or 3 at 85 stam; Kershaw, Bum, someone else. A majority of starters are in the 70s with sliders set to 4 for starters and 0 for relievers and manager hook at 5. While in franchise I only play games for my main team, Yankees, but use 30 team control so I sim the other games for other teams. With that said I am still noticing a number of complete games, mainly shutouts. Does anyone know if the sliders work when simming games such as pitcher stam and manager hook? If so, what have others found using this method of lowering stam when it comes to complete games during the year.
                          To a lot of ours' surprise, certain sliders do affect simulated games, especially the pitcher stamina and hook, and also injuries.

                          Comment

                          • Jolly Roger
                            Prince of Plakata
                            • Sep 2011
                            • 871

                            #43
                            Re: Setting pitch count limits using pitcher stamina rating

                            Originally posted by rumplefust
                            Long time lurker of this site for OSFM and trade discussions but when I found this thread I finally needed to make an account. I think this is amazing and have been looking for a 'solution' to the complete game issue in franchise. Using OSFM 1.5 I went and altered the stam on all starting pitchers and only have 2 or 3 at 85 stam; Kershaw, Bum, someone else. A majority of starters are in the 70s with sliders set to 4 for starters and 0 for relievers and manager hook at 5. While in franchise I only play games for my main team, Yankees, but use 30 team control so I sim the other games for other teams. With that said I am still noticing a number of complete games, mainly shutouts. Does anyone know if the sliders work when simming games such as pitcher stam and manager hook? If so, what have others found using this method of lowering stam when it comes to complete games during the year.
                            You need to lower starter stamina lower than 4 and probably bump the Hook slider up as well. To what exact values, I don't know. However, realize that in doing so you'll increase bullpen usage and have a considerable number of guys with 100+ innings/games out of the pen. I've tried tweaking all sorts of different variables and still haven't solved this issue. The CPU seems to value using their best rated relievers over resting their 'pen evenly. As an aside, in doing research on real life MLB bullpen usage, I was surprised to realize that, barring injuries, the 6 main relievers (i.e., excluding the long man) get roughly the same amount of innings. Anyway, I'm not sure that we can achieve a realistic balance in pitcher usage in The Show at this point, but hopefully I'm wrong.

                            Comment

                            • rumplefust
                              Just started!
                              • Apr 2016
                              • 4

                              #44
                              Re: Setting pitch count limits using pitcher stamina rating

                              Originally posted by Jolly Roger
                              You need to lower starter stamina lower than 4 and probably bump the Hook slider up as well. To what exact values, I don't know. However, realize that in doing so you'll increase bullpen usage and have a considerable number of guys with 100+ innings/games out of the pen. I've tried tweaking all sorts of different variables and still haven't solved this issue. The CPU seems to value using their best rated relievers over resting their 'pen evenly. As an aside, in doing research on real life MLB bullpen usage, I was surprised to realize that, barring injuries, the 6 main relievers (i.e., excluding the long man) get roughly the same amount of innings. Anyway, I'm not sure that we can achieve a realistic balance in pitcher usage in The Show at this point, but hopefully I'm wrong.
                              Correct, the bullpen usage does seem to be base on overall which makes sense for a video game. My main concern, as pointed out in this thread, is the cpu sticking with starters deep into starts with supposedly high pitch counts. I can only presume high pitch counts since the games are simulated and I cannot view the pitch counts.

                              Comment

                              • oldtimey
                                Rookie
                                • Apr 2005
                                • 97

                                #45
                                Re: Setting pitch count limits using pitcher stamina rating

                                Originally posted by rumplefust
                                Correct, the bullpen usage does seem to be base on overall which makes sense for a video game. My main concern, as pointed out in this thread, is the cpu sticking with starters deep into starts with supposedly high pitch counts. I can only presume high pitch counts since the games are simulated and I cannot view the pitch counts.
                                With the guidelines and settings explained earlier in this thread, your pitching staff will achieve far more realistic pitching staff use over an MLB full season. Yes, you will experience a pitcher allowed to go 120+ pitches when: a.) when the starter has a no-hitter going; b.) when the starter has a shutout going and his team has a big lead, i.e. not a save situation; and c.) if the pitcher is dominating (10+ K's). With the current game engine, these times are when the cpu manager is attempting to rest his bullpen, so they are necessary. But pitching stamina is cumulative from start-to-start. If, for example, Kershaw shuts out Padres over 9 with 13 k's while throwing 122 pitches, he has given the bullpen a break. If the 5th starter had a lousy start where he couldn't go more than 3 IP, this would be welcome. Or if the game before Kershaw's went into extra innings. But, if there are no days off before Kershaw's next start, he will make that start with less than his max stamina. Then, you will see cpu Roberts bringing the hook out at the first sign of trouble in the sixth inning, especially if he is close to, at, or over 100 pitches. I know that many people who make these adjustments, then start a franchise freak out when they see early complete games with high pitch counts in April, but that is because when the teams break spring training; everyone is at maximum stamina. Then, the season starts and there are more off days than usual. The AI takes advantage of this and the starters, particularly the aces will go longer. I have experienced this in multiple seasons. But once the regular season gets it's rhythm and teams are practically playing everyday, you will see your franchise's starters close to IP and CG of the real MLB, and relievers will settle in to 1 IP or less per appearance. In my current franchise, at the beginning of May, Bumgarner, Wainwright, Greinke and Koehler(!) lead the NL in CG with 2. In the AL, it's Keuchel with 2. That seems like too many, but it's just the way the AI handles it's starters in April, taking advantage of starters going out there with maximum stamina. Your leaders at the end of the season will have 5 or 6 CG in both leagues. This is according to my personal history playing cpu-vs-cpu.

                                Here's the thing, bottomline: Stamina is the most valued attribute for a pitcher to the game AI.
                                Adjusting the stamina will adjust a pitcher's OVR more than any of his other attributes. In-game, the stamina ratings, out-of-box, do not represent true pitcher's fatigue. A pitcher with a 95 stamina rating will start to show definite signs of fatigue at 95 pitches, with the current game engine. If you are getting realistic pitch counts in your Show experience, 95-100 pitches is an average of 6 IP. This number of pitches is the end of the average pitcher's day in the real MLB. But in The Show, a 95 stamina rating means that, in the 6th, the starter is just starting to fatigue. When, realistically, he should already be out of the game. That's why I lowered the maximum stamina in my franchise to 85. That is the number of pitches that your ace will start to show signs of fatigue--80-85, not 95-99. I'm watching a real MLB game as I am writing this and I am seeing Lackey of the Cubs struggle out of a tough 6th inning against the Braves, pitch count 79. Scroll up in this thread for explanations of adjustments and slider settings.
                                Last edited by oldtimey; 05-01-2016, 03:07 PM.

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