Stats-Based CPU Sliders [MLB 18 Version Season-Mode Memorial Edition]

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  • nomo17k
    Permanently Banned
    • Feb 2011
    • 5735

    #61
    Re: Stats-Based CPU Sliders [MLB 18 Version Season-Mode Memorial Edition]

    Originally posted by NolanRyansSnowmonkey
    I find it interesting that between 4/9 and 4/10, with only strike frequency raised one notch ( from 5 to 6):
    Batting Average spiked 40 points to .286
    Babip spiked 56 points to .343
    Doubles/BIP jumped 2 points from 8.3 to 10.3

    Yet between 4/14 and 4/15, with only strike frequency lowered one notch (6 to 5):

    Batting Average still went up 9 points
    Babip only lowered 6 points
    Doubles/BIP still went up over 1.5 points

    I would have guessed you would see a similar difference in offense by adjusting only that same slider. (My expectation was that offense would decrease in a similar amount between 4/14 and 4/15, instead of increasing)

    Although some other sliders had changed in the meantime, (Timing 2 to 3, and Solid hits 6 to 5) I expected with only the one slider change the results would be similar.

    Any thoughts?
    Indeed, I was itching for this sort of paradox to be pointed out (thank you), and some results apparently does not make sense at first glance like this.

    One biggest caveat in anything being done here is that, especially for those 25-game sets, there are sampling issues and also sample size may not be big enough for some statistics to stabilize.

    Since the time you asked the question, the batting average and BABIP for the 4/15 set has changed quite a bit, so at least the direction of the change is no longer as contradictory as you mentioned.

    In general, I tend to trust less those numbers that I can gather in small numbers at once during a single game (like hits, doubles, HRs), because they converge to reliable averages only after a sample gets bigger.

    And a 25- game set is still not that a large sample and is actually a good example where an anomalous game can skew overall averages unless interpreted with care.

    One game, CWS vs. MIN game was such a crazy game in which each team had 21 hits and ended by a score of 15-13. Both teams hit 11 HRs in total (!). That game alone totally skewed the results for the rest of the measurements, and I think that game alone was a major factor why the contradiction you mentioned above happened.

    If I "assume" that game did not happen, remove it from the sample and re-compute the averages, the batting average (after 20 games now) is .259 and BABIP is .310, which are less contradictory and much closer to what I wanted to see happen by decreasing Strike Frequency by one.

    Of course you cannot always do this sort of deliberate selection to simply reject data you do not like or do not fit to your personal definition of what should happen. But when you are working with a small sample and you know you happened to be extremely unlucky to see anomalous game or two, sometimes it is useful to "clip" data points at both ends (reject highest and lowest "anomalies," just to be fair) to see what story the rest of data tell. (It may be more useful to compute medians instead of averages in order to avoid this issue.)

    Still, the difficult thing is to evaluate what are anomalous though... it's still possible the slider combination is susceptible for that kind of "anomalous" games to happen. To be fully convinced, I may need a bigger sample to see how often that sort of anomalous game happens.... things are not quite straightforward.
    The Show CPU vs. CPU game stats: 2018,17,16,15,14,13,12,11

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    • nomo17k
      Permanently Banned
      • Feb 2011
      • 5735

      #62
      Re: Stats-Based CPU Sliders [MLB 18 Version Season-Mode Memorial Edition]

      Related to the above post, is it intuitive for lower Strike Frequency to cause the game to reduce the amount of offense?

      That basically means that pitchers throwing less strikes in early counts is leading to less offense, being more successful in retiring hitters. Isn't throwing strikes an essential skill for pitchers to succeed? Why are CPU pitchers being hit harder when they attack strike zone more aggressively in early counts?
      The Show CPU vs. CPU game stats: 2018,17,16,15,14,13,12,11

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      • NolanRyansSnowmonkey
        MVP
        • Jun 2016
        • 1354

        #63
        Re: Stats-Based CPU Sliders [MLB 18 Version Season-Mode Memorial Edition]

        Originally posted by nomo17k
        Related to the above post, is it intuitive for lower Strike Frequency to cause the game to reduce the amount of offense?

        That basically means that pitchers throwing less strikes in early counts is leading to less offense, being more successful in retiring hitters. Isn't throwing strikes an essential skill for pitchers to succeed? Why are CPU pitchers being hit harder when they attack strike zone more aggressively in early counts?
        I was hoping you would answer that question lol. Strike Frequency is one slider that I haven't touched in years (in my own played franchise. In CPU vs CPU I always just follow the Nomo Codex.) I have consistently ended up at 63-64% strikes and 60-61% first pitch strikes by simply adjusting CPU control and consistency in Human vs CPU games, and I'm sure part of that is due to how much i "give" the pitcher strikes by chasing, fouling etc.

        So I can say strike frequency is one of the slider that I understand the least, due to rarely experimenting with it. Although this year I've been tempted to try it, not because strike percentages are off, but because I can't seem to get Human offense right...

        But to the question, my guess would be that strike frequency at 10 would be jamming the zone early with not-so-quality strikes, but "dang blammit, I'm gon' throw a strike." Which would increase the number of very hittable pitches, and therefore averages go up. Likewise, I would guess that strike frequency at 0 would be (with a little exaggeration) avoiding the zone at all costs, "im gon' throw it but please dont hit my pitches." Which would decrease the number of hittable pitches early in counts, and increase walks.

        The problem with my assumption is that with my take on lower strike frequency, the pitcher should be behind in more counts, producing more 2-0 and 3-1 counts. Which should increase averages also, unless strike frequency has an effect later in counts also, contradicting its explanation.

        I guess in my very limited experience with strike frequency is, at 0 "I'm not touching the plate", while 10 is "let's see how often I can hit the middle of the plate." With everything in between being various degrees of meats and cheeses.


        So I guess i basically I said all that to say "I dont know" haha.

        Would love to hear what you think, and what you were expecting to achieve when you raised or lowered only strike frequency.

        Comment

        • KBLover
          Hall Of Fame
          • Aug 2009
          • 12172

          #64
          Re: Stats-Based CPU Sliders [MLB 18 Version Season-Mode Memorial Edition]

          Originally posted by nomo17k
          Related to the above post, is it intuitive for lower Strike Frequency to cause the game to reduce the amount of offense?

          That basically means that pitchers throwing less strikes in early counts is leading to less offense, being more successful in retiring hitters. Isn't throwing strikes an essential skill for pitchers to succeed? Why are CPU pitchers being hit harder when they attack strike zone more aggressively in early counts?
          Strike Frequency works with control and consistency to set the CPU's Zone %, the number of pitches the pitcher actually throws in the strike zone. This isn't Strike % because chases = strikes but chases, by definition, aren't in the zone.

          I could see it lowering offense if the hitters chase too much. Generally, pitches out of the zone are harder for hitters to hit with authority/good trajectories, so they are easier outs or weaker hits most of the time.

          I know playing vs the CPU (on HoF) I hit MUCH easier when the CPU gets into "throw a strike" mode as it does sometimes. I only have to think of one thing - velocity. I don't have to judge the zone because the pitcher is throwing a stream of strikes, so I can just sell out on it being a strike and just worry about timing.

          When I put strike frequency at 0, I had to learn to hit. If I get in chase mode - I don't get squat as an offense. No walks, few hits, little damage, more K's and bad contact.

          Also, consider mistake pitches. A mistake in the zone might be more easily hit hard. A mistake out of the zone might just be a more obvious ball. Maybe a chase chance lost since it missed so bad, but no other damage.

          Just my take on it.
          "Some people call it butterflies, but to him, it probably feels like pterodactyls in his stomach." --Plesac in MLB18

          Comment

          • KBLover
            Hall Of Fame
            • Aug 2009
            • 12172

            #65
            Re: Stats-Based CPU Sliders [MLB 18 Version Season-Mode Memorial Edition]

            Originally posted by NolanRyansSnowmonkey
            But to the question, my guess would be that strike frequency at 10 would be jamming the zone early with not-so-quality strikes, but "dang blammit, I'm gon' throw a strike." Which would increase the number of very hittable pitches, and therefore averages go up. Likewise, I would guess that strike frequency at 0 would be (with a little exaggeration) avoiding the zone at all costs, "im gon' throw it but please dont hit my pitches." Which would decrease the number of hittable pitches early in counts, and increase walks.

            Pretty much, and with only mild exaggeration. Depending on who's up, that's EXACTLY what the pitcher says on 0. I've had my 99 Power slugger get 4 balls that weren't within a foot of the zone before...even with no one on base. Commentary even said he got "the treatment". In fact, I get him out more than the pitcher does sometimes because I wanna hit with him and the pitcher is like "yeah okay, here, hit this stuff 2 inches off the black and 2 inches above the letters". If I don't swing, it's a 4-or-5 pitch walk. If I do, usually a lazy out or just a single, which is a win, basically.

            Count, who's at the plate, game situation, who's on deck, all work into the "effective" strike frequency, i.e. how the pitcher will pitch that at-bat. The slider is like the base mentality.

            Where control and consistency come it is: how effectively does the pitcher hit the spot.

            0 with higher control/consistency might make a pitcher aim for, and hit, those edges and corners nicely. With lower, you get more walks, more obvious misses, and the occasional "hit me" pitch. You also might get borderline strikes, which is why I like 0 with lower control/consistency. I might get lulled into being worked around, then paint-paint suddenly it's 2-2. Or maybe he's nibbling, but nabs the edge - 1-2 and he's still not "trying" to throw strikes. Lots of variety, imo, and generally around the 45% Zone% range of real MLB and I'm constantly having to think at the plate. 0 with high control/consistency is like the Greg Maddux setting. Live on (or just off) the corners all game and rarely miss.

            10 with higher control/consistency, I almost never saw a ball except on 2-strike counts. Sky high strike and zone rates - was actually easier, aside from the effect of control/consistency on hitting. 10 with lower is interesting. You could get a lot of misses or a lot of "hit me" balls...or hit batters... It's like it's the "effectively wild" setting. Or maybe Young Randy Johnson setting.

            Like with all settings, it's just taste and who you want to highlight and how you want players to succeed and fail and why. That's pretty much what Control/Consistency/Strike Frequency do. That's why so many combinations of those three can create "sim" experiences.
            Last edited by KBLover; 04-17-2018, 03:39 PM.
            "Some people call it butterflies, but to him, it probably feels like pterodactyls in his stomach." --Plesac in MLB18

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            • NolanRyansSnowmonkey
              MVP
              • Jun 2016
              • 1354

              #66
              Re: Stats-Based CPU Sliders [MLB 18 Version Season-Mode Memorial Edition]

              Awesome KB. I love hearing others takes on sliders.

              Going to change subjects a bit, but along the same lines... Excuse me for a moment while i talk about Human vs CPU in a CPU vs CPU thread...Im sure that in all your slider testing, Nomo, you've had to attempt to fix a similar issue at some point with CPU sliders - For the third year in a row I've had the same issue, that others do not seem to have - I've checked other people's numbers and it's not there if they are in a good slider set up....

              That is, that I can get sliders to give me, the human, a near perfect .300 babip, and .255 average (playing with multiple teams for many games - i understand sample size) but every time I settle in those averages, I look at doubles and and my doubles per hit is around 26 to 30%. Which is way too high. Basically I live on doubles, while all other percentages look great.

              So I mess with Solid hits to maybe bring down the doubles, and the ball feels like they turned the Humidor up to about 300%. Or maybe they just stored the balls in a swimming pool. Singles go down, home runs go down, doubles go down. Now I'm getting near perfect 1B,2B,3B, HR ratios, but babip falls to .250 and my batting average to .220. Then the cycle starts over: raise solid hits or power back again, or raise timing or foul frequency and my babip and doubles percentage always go up together.

              To tie this back in to the topic at hand, I've wondered if raising strike frequency might help, with Solid hits lowered a notch. I guess I'm just thinking out loud now...

              If you had perfect babip, perfect batting average, perfect strike %, perfect amount of strikeouts and walks, etc, but only one thing was off - too many doubles, what sliders might you try to bring that down without going through this same cycle? I usually hear solid hits... any ideas?

              FYI im on legend hitting and i love it. (I've had the exact same issue on other levels for 3 years) and my hitting sliders are usually around 5, 5, 1, 3, 3. With CPU pitching at default, fielder speed and reaction at 2 and 2 (which just looks perfect on just about all balls in play) and BR speed at 4. I've thought about raising fielder speed to 3 but 2 just looks right on every bip. Especially since the majority of my doubles seem to be line drives that perfectly split the gaps anyway, and fielder speed wouldn't make much difference...

              I know there is no perfect answer to this without more trial and error, but I'm about trialed and errored out with my own ideas.

              Anyway, if this is too far off-topic i apologize and can pose the question elsewhere. I just love talking sliders and stats, and it seems im in good company.

              Comment

              • nomo17k
                Permanently Banned
                • Feb 2011
                • 5735

                #67
                Re: Stats-Based CPU Sliders [MLB 18 Version Season-Mode Memorial Edition]

                Originally posted by NolanRyansSnowmonkey
                ...

                That is, that I can get sliders to give me, the human, a near perfect .300 babip, and .255 average (playing with multiple teams for many games - i understand sample size) but every time I settle in those averages, I look at doubles and and my doubles per hit is around 26 to 30%. Which is way too high. Basically I live on doubles, while all other percentages look great.

                So I mess with Solid hits to maybe bring down the doubles, and the ball feels like they turned the Humidor up to about 300%. Or maybe they just stored the balls in a swimming pool. Singles go down, home runs go down, doubles go down. Now I'm getting near perfect 1B,2B,3B, HR ratios, but babip falls to .250 and my batting average to .220. Then the cycle starts over: raise solid hits or power back again, or raise timing or foul frequency and my babip and doubles percentage always go up together.

                ...

                FYI im on legend hitting and i love it. (I've had the exact same issue on other levels for 3 years) and my hitting sliders are usually around 5, 5, 1, 3, 3. With CPU pitching at default, fielder speed and reaction at 2 and 2 (which just looks perfect on just about all balls in play) and BR speed at 4. I've thought about raising fielder speed to 3 but 2 just looks right on every bip. Especially since the majority of my doubles seem to be line drives that perfectly split the gaps anyway, and fielder speed wouldn't make much difference...

                ...
                This type of discussion is totally fine as far as I'm concerned. Since I decided to make the spreadsheet public, there haven't been many opportunities to actually talk about things (people just silently peek at the sheet), so that's one reason why I just posed the question about Strike Frequency.

                In any case, which hitting interface are you using? From all the other settings I'm assuming you are using Zone, but that's one big piece of useful information missing from your post.
                The Show CPU vs. CPU game stats: 2018,17,16,15,14,13,12,11

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                • NolanRyansSnowmonkey
                  MVP
                  • Jun 2016
                  • 1354

                  #68
                  Re: Stats-Based CPU Sliders [MLB 18 Version Season-Mode Memorial Edition]

                  Originally posted by nomo17k
                  This type of discussion is totally fine as far as I'm concerned. Since I decided to make the spreadsheet public, there haven't been many opportunities to actually talk about things (people just silently peek at the sheet), so that's one reason why I just posed the question about Strike Frequency.

                  In any case, which hitting interface are you using? From all the other settings I'm assuming you are using Zone, but that's one big piece of useful information missing from your post.
                  My bad. Yeah I was rushed at the end of that post, and left that out. Yes you are right I'm using zone. I've had very realistic results every year except for the issue I mentioned.

                  I like to play a lot of games with every team to get decently close to league average, much like you do with CPU, although I can't get near the sample size since that would take up way too much time, actually playing every pitch. I still play enough with different sets to start to get a decent sample size. The goal of getting the stats close to league average is almost as fun to me as when I start playing my actual franchise.

                  But anyway, have seen the same doubles trend enough to recognize it. I also play a full 162 game season every year, playing every pitch, and zone hitting, so in that case I do get a good sample size.

                  Comment

                  • KBLover
                    Hall Of Fame
                    • Aug 2009
                    • 12172

                    #69
                    Re: Stats-Based CPU Sliders [MLB 18 Version Season-Mode Memorial Edition]

                    Originally posted by NolanRyansSnowmonkey
                    If you had perfect babip, perfect batting average, perfect strike %, perfect amount of strikeouts and walks, etc, but only one thing was off - too many doubles, what sliders might you try to bring that down without going through this same cycle? I usually hear solid hits... any ideas?

                    I would need more information. Why are the doubles happening?

                    If it's because you're a Zone hitter and you're hitting line drives because you're a good hitter...I would do...nothing. The sliders are probably reflecting your own ability as well as your team's ability.

                    League averages are good benchmarks...but don't forget why there's deviations. Not every team is league average, nor every player. And since we hit for every player and you're using zone where you control the bat itself for every player...you have to think more about your playstyle archetype at least as much. Because if you hit like, say, Altuve, you're going to be better than league average at something and doubles sounds about right if you're a long-term line drive hitter. That's one of the advantages of line drives. Removing that would be more wrong than right, in my opinion. It might also mess with your BABIP.

                    The most I would consider doing is lowering Power by 1. I wouldn't touch solid hits - too many side effects. I really wouldn't want to touch Power either...that might mess with line drive rate (batted ball velocity informs batted ball type a lot of times with the new hitting engine in 17 and now 18, imo).

                    Of course, this is coming from the perspective of a Directional hitter. I don't have control of the bat so playing with solid hits and power would have more implications since I'm counting on event chances (i.e RNG) more than squaring up with the PCI (which is an event chance of it's own impacting all the other chances). Or I would probably have to raise contact and hope that didn't do too much.
                    "Some people call it butterflies, but to him, it probably feels like pterodactyls in his stomach." --Plesac in MLB18

                    Comment

                    • keveyd
                      Rookie
                      • Jun 2017
                      • 39

                      #70
                      Re: Stats-Based CPU Sliders [MLB 18 Version Season-Mode Memorial Edition]

                      Genesis

                      Sent from my SM-G930V using Operation Sports mobile app

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                      • keveyd
                        Rookie
                        • Jun 2017
                        • 39

                        #71
                        Re: Stats-Based CPU Sliders [MLB 18 Version Season-Mode Memorial Edition]

                        Are you still using veteran hitting and all-star pitching

                        Sent from my SM-G930V using Operation Sports mobile app

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                        • NolanRyansSnowmonkey
                          MVP
                          • Jun 2016
                          • 1354

                          #72
                          Re: Stats-Based CPU Sliders [MLB 18 Version Season-Mode Memorial Edition]

                          Originally posted by KBLover
                          I would need more information. Why are the doubles happening?

                          If it's because you're a Zone hitter and you're hitting line drives because you're a good hitter...I would do...nothing. The sliders are probably reflecting your own ability as well as your team's ability

                          League averages are good benchmarks...but don't forget why there's deviations. Not every team is league average, nor every player. And since we hit for every player and you're using zone where you control the bat itself for every player...you have to think more about your playstyle archetype at least as much. Because if you hit like, say, Altuve, you're going to be better than league average at something and doubles sounds about right if you're a long-term line drive hitter. That's one of the advantages of line drives. Removing that would be more wrong than right, in my opinion. It might also mess with your BABIP.
                          Yeah, I've never been one to try to use league average to measure any one team. But by using every team an equal amount of times, those combined numbers and averages usually fall very close to MLB league average. The game impresses me that it is even somewhat possible. I dont care if any one team is at league average or not, since every team has different strengths and weaknesses. But I do I want each team to be within the pretty standard year to year range of MLB teams. In other words I dont want any one team to set record high or low numbers in any statistic. Especially not consistently. No team hits close to 30% doubles. As it is right now, and last year, etc, I could set league records in doubles with many teams.

                          As far as my skill level, I can't see that being the issue. I can't hit line drives any more than anyone else. I struggle to hit in many games with some teams. But those teams still hit close to 30% of hits being doubles. The problem seems to be not too many line drives, but too high of a percentage of line drives being gap doubles.. Even if i experiment and get my line drive % down to 14%, way too many of those are gap doubles. But at that rate babip and average drops. When I hover right around league average of 19-20% line drives, all other stats start to fall right in line, except doubles.

                          I have been testing some other settings and I'll let you know how it's going. I will also try your power suggestion since that is the slider I've touched the least so far.

                          Thank you for the suggestions and input. I think I'm in the right thread. As soon as it gets to be too much on this topic, let me know and I can start a new one. I dont want to overtake it and change the subject from the original purpose. I just knew Nomo had probably at least dealt with this from a numbers standpoint, albeit from CPU vs CPU.

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                          • nomo17k
                            Permanently Banned
                            • Feb 2011
                            • 5735

                            #73
                            Re: Stats-Based CPU Sliders [MLB 18 Version Season-Mode Memorial Edition]

                            Originally posted by keveyd
                            Are you still using veteran hitting and all-star pitching
                            I don't consider difficulty levels mattering in CPU vs. CPU, so it's arbitrary. But I tend to just set them to All-star all the way.


                            And I'm sorry for the relative quietness of me in the thread lately. I fully intend to respond to the recent discussions since they are all interesting, but I want to set aside a chunk of time to properly respond instead of blowing them off quickly with a couple /10char responses.
                            The Show CPU vs. CPU game stats: 2018,17,16,15,14,13,12,11

                            Comment

                            • NolanRyansSnowmonkey
                              MVP
                              • Jun 2016
                              • 1354

                              #74
                              Re: Stats-Based CPU Sliders [MLB 18 Version Season-Mode Memorial Edition]

                              Originally posted by nomo17k
                              I And I'm sorry for the relative quietness of me in the thread lately. I fully intend to respond to the recent discussions since they are all interesting, but I want to set aside a chunk of time to properly respond instead of blowing them off quickly with a couple /10char responses.
                              You dont know how much that is appreciated. That happens far too often with some I think. So no worries and take your time. I always appreciate your thoroughness and detail, and look forward to your input, whether its sooner or later.

                              Comment

                              • flinnian
                                Rookie
                                • Mar 2018
                                • 7

                                #75
                                Re: Stats-Based CPU Sliders [MLB 18 Version Season-Mode Memorial Edition]

                                Originally posted by NolanRyansSnowmonkey
                                Awesome KB. I love hearing others takes on sliders.

                                Going to change subjects a bit, but along the same lines... Excuse me for a moment while i talk about Human vs CPU in a CPU vs CPU thread...Im sure that in all your slider testing, Nomo, you've had to attempt to fix a similar issue at some point with CPU sliders - For the third year in a row I've had the same issue, that others do not seem to have - I've checked other people's numbers and it's not there if they are in a good slider set up....

                                That is, that I can get sliders to give me, the human, a near perfect .300 babip, and .255 average (playing with multiple teams for many games - i understand sample size) but every time I settle in those averages, I look at doubles and and my doubles per hit is around 26 to 30%. Which is way too high. Basically I live on doubles, while all other percentages look great.

                                So I mess with Solid hits to maybe bring down the doubles, and the ball feels like they turned the Humidor up to about 300%. Or maybe they just stored the balls in a swimming pool. Singles go down, home runs go down, doubles go down. Now I'm getting near perfect 1B,2B,3B, HR ratios, but babip falls to .250 and my batting average to .220. Then the cycle starts over: raise solid hits or power back again, or raise timing or foul frequency and my babip and doubles percentage always go up together.

                                To tie this back in to the topic at hand, I've wondered if raising strike frequency might help, with Solid hits lowered a notch. I guess I'm just thinking out loud now...

                                If you had perfect babip, perfect batting average, perfect strike %, perfect amount of strikeouts and walks, etc, but only one thing was off - too many doubles, what sliders might you try to bring that down without going through this same cycle? I usually hear solid hits... any ideas?

                                FYI im on legend hitting and i love it. (I've had the exact same issue on other levels for 3 years) and my hitting sliders are usually around 5, 5, 1, 3, 3. With CPU pitching at default, fielder speed and reaction at 2 and 2 (which just looks perfect on just about all balls in play) and BR speed at 4. I've thought about raising fielder speed to 3 but 2 just looks right on every bip. Especially since the majority of my doubles seem to be line drives that perfectly split the gaps anyway, and fielder speed wouldn't make much difference...

                                I know there is no perfect answer to this without more trial and error, but I'm about trialed and errored out with my own ideas.

                                Anyway, if this is too far off-topic i apologize and can pose the question elsewhere. I just love talking sliders and stats, and it seems im in good company.
                                What I've done is raise the fielder arm strength to 7 for infield and 8 for outfield while having fielder speed and reaction being at 1 and 0 in response to a different problem aka the game doesn't seem to allow ground balls through the infield unless they are utterly scorched. Statcast data shows that ground balls can/will get through the infield at 75mph, so the game has and has had that wrong. It looks and feels more like what I see in the MLB and on the exit velocities they show on broadcasts.

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