TheWarmWind's Impact Sliders 2020

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  • Sairheart
    Rookie
    • Jun 2013
    • 31

    #76
    Re: TheWarmWind's Impact Sliders 2020

    I've been playing a ton with your sliders, right at the AS break. all I've changed is maxing out both human contact and human timing. I still make outs on perfect perfect, or a deep fly ball that gets caught on a good timing right in the pci, You just have to get into deep counts so that you take more swings at pitches that aren't best in execution/location, use power swing(neutral, fly ball/line drive/up and in depending) especially without two strikes regardless of the hitter, and know how to make the right pre swing input adjustments that won't nerf your swing. With two strikes I literally am just going back and forth between regular swing, regular fly ball, and regular line drive, that's it. Contact fly ball/line drive/down and in when I'm down 0-2, but I go regular line drive in big rbi spots. It blows up your ability to check swing though, but I go to it often 1-2. Also up and in regular swing is a good choice when you've already made contact with a power swing, or had a check swing power swing go against you.

    I feel like this is way more realistic, where good timing on pitches right over the plate is a much more predicative indicator of damage than always hitting the sweet spot. It's really a small amount of hitters who do consistent damage on pitches at the edge of the zone. I know some ppl might think me boosting timing/contact is a lot, but trust me it won't matter if you don't use the power swing often. I make four or five outs a game on good time/fat pci when using contact/regular. I don't sim anything ever.

    For reference I'm hitting .240 team wide, with depressed obp/slg #'s, and only 2 regulars having AS type seasons, many guys hitting below the back of the baseball card, playing with the yankees. Max speed on pitches. Hit .270 team wide in the last month of games, which is directly related to the obscene amount of pandemic time I've been able to dedicate to my approach and how I hold the controller and basically never picking a pre swing input that will nerf my swing.

    I'm implementing your fielder reaction and infield strength changes though because now that I can't blame it on me just sucking lol I realize I'm hitting into way too many DP's, and inducing too many, by far leading the league. Like unless the runner has a near 80 speed and above you're getting doubled up, not only that, but the game consistently will penalize the runner at first for tying the throw at the bag. Many, many times I've gone back and done the replay at first on a DP and I/the CPU was safe. Hard hit balls in the infield should cause way more drama. This is why shifts showed up in the first place, to deal with this problem. I have a 2.33 era team wide, so I don't mind the penalty I may get on the pitching side.

    But these are really at the edges in terms of issues, the game has played very well. I'll come back around when I see what slowing down has solved.

    Edit: played a few games, really great noticeably difference, people beating out DP's now, bad outfielders not quite being able to make a play more consistently, and something that I forget to mention, which is lasers consistently getting caught by infielders. For the the first time I lace a low line drive with power swing and it just went too fast past the infielder for him to catch it. Went to the wall but Voigt too slow to turn it into a double. Runners froze in case it was close so it was def in exit velo that did it. Runner went halfway on a ball that landed right at a outfielder's feet and still beat the throw to second while on auto. Really good.
    Last edited by Sairheart; 02-03-2021, 08:01 AM.

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    • TheWarmWind
      MVP
      • Apr 2015
      • 2620

      #77
      Re: TheWarmWind's Impact Sliders 2020

      New numbers going up in the OP soon. Changes listed here.

      Human Timing moved from 7 to 8

      The Vision vs K/9 was too often in K/9's favour, even when the batter's vision attribute was higher. This should help even things out a little more while still keeping K/9 powerful and adding a little bit more hit variety.

      Human Foul Frequency moved from 4 to 3

      Helps keep overall strikeout numbers the same while still removing some of that almighty K/9 power.

      CPU Timing moved from 7 to 9

      While overall averages were about the same, success rate on early/late swings was too low compared to the player. This should be much more even.

      CPU Foul Frequency lowered from 4 to 2

      Likewise foul rates were higher for the CPU then the player. I'm not sure this has been lowered enough, but I don't want to fall into the trap of slideristis and make a rash change based on too small a sample size.

      CPU Solid Hits lowered from 5 to 4

      While the success rate on early/late swings was too low compared to a human, the success rates on good timing were too high. This change has, so far, created better parity between the CPU and Human.

      CPU Pitcher Control lowered from 1 to 0

      CPU still had too much ability to pinpoint the pitch too often, even with bad BB/9 or Control. Honestly I still think parity has not been achieved. The Human still has higher consistency and the CPU higher control, but I don't really want to change the feel of human pitching, which is my only option at this point.

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      • baseballrosters
        Banned
        • Jan 2021
        • 83

        #78
        Re: TheWarmWind's Impact Sliders 2020

        Great work.

        Sent from my SM-J327T1 using Operation Sports mobile app

        Comment

        • TheWarmWind
          MVP
          • Apr 2015
          • 2620

          #79
          Re: TheWarmWind's Impact Sliders 2020

          Ok so I spent all day today testing out what factors do and don't effect the time dilation effect of the game, and then matching them as best I could to create a speedy game with as little time dilation effect as possible.

          I think I might have it, but the issue is on my V6 settings, there is a clear swing into batter favourable territory.

          There is good news and bad news here. The good news is that I already have a clear culprit on the batting side of things that needs to be toned down. The bad news is that culprit is bat exit velocity floors, and the best way to lower them is to lower contact, which I cannot do while maintaining Human/CPU parity.

          I'm currently exploring lowering power. The theory is that this will allow the bat exit velocity floor to proc more often by lowering the average. It also has the potential to have a profound impact on offense overall, swinging our batter favoured sliders back to a balanced state with one simple, clean tick on a slider. What little I've tested so far shows very promising results, and the bat exit velocity ceiling results are well within my margin for error, but at the end of the day I do not like this solution.

          My concern is not power hitters. Yes, their averages will dip, but overall I doubt this change will even register for some of them them. No, it's the guys who are career single digit home run per year hitters that concern me. Guys who can, and should, hit only 5 to 7 home runs a year, or even just 1 or 2. I'm worried they'll now hit none.

          Guys with developing power is also a concern. If a prospect is relying on power development to become relevant, then they may struggle with this slider change. Even worse in my eyes, the likelihood of "breakout" seasons for power will be far less likely, and power development will have to rely on a slower, more predictable progress.

          I could be wrong about all of this. I'll post my "currently testing" sliders as a response to this thread next time I play. However, expect me to test thoroughly before declaring a V7 and posting in the OP and in the vault. Just wanted you guys to know where I was at right now.

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          • TheWarmWind
            MVP
            • Apr 2015
            • 2620

            #80
            Re: TheWarmWind's Impact Sliders 2020

            Ok yeah lowering power is not the answer. It creates even more hit variety, gets me some wonderfully low bat exit velocities, still generates enough power to get reasonable stats, and completely swings things back to a balanced experience.

            So what's my issue with it? It completely ruins fear of the zone. It's far too easy to just pound the corners as a half decent pitcher and get good results. There is no zone fear and therefore the player has no reason to give up walks. Removing some pitcher control might help, but we might go a little too far into sim territory doing that. This is where ideas like comeback code come from. I do not want to remove the feeling of being in control.

            I've got a few clever ideas to help solve the problem. The first is to just keep things as they are and lower strike frequency one notch, making the CPU more cautious and leaving the onus on the player to avoid the strike zone more often as well.

            My second idea is to concede that I need to turn the difficulty from Legend pitching, refind human/CPU parity in contact, hope like hell the rest of the sliders remain in parity and then find some way to make pulse pitching harder, probably through removing UI elements. Then I could lower contact. I'd also have to refind pitching parity, so it's an option I REALLY don't want to explore. Yet I still find it better than my third option.

            My third option is to give up on the speedy, non-time-dilated game I've discovered and rebalance the pitcher/batter balance with that.

            I also have the fourth option of lowering solid hits, but that can come with the same issue that lowering power did: removing zone fear.

            Clearly option 1 is going to be my first stop.

            Edit: just thought of a fifth option. I can keep power lowered but raise solid hits. That will keep zone fear high while allowing those lovely low bat exit velocities. Might be my new favourite option.

            I'm glad I'm writing this all down.

            Sent from my Pixel 3 using Operation Sports mobile app
            Last edited by TheWarmWind; 02-19-2021, 12:39 PM.

            Comment

            • TheWarmWind
              MVP
              • Apr 2015
              • 2620

              #81
              Re: TheWarmWind's Impact Sliders 2020

              Ok I'm confident enough to post a "Here's what I'm testing" post.

              These are the speed changes I've made to the game. You will have to pitch more carefully, to keep the offense down, in spite of defense getting a slight boost.

              CPU Strike Frequency moved to 4

              The CPU had the need to pitch a little bit more carefully.

              CPU Manager Hook moved to 4

              I've been testing various settings here, and I've thus far concluded it's a personal preference this based on how brave or nervous you want opposing managers to be. I'm just testing 4 for my own personal preference, but I'd say 3 to 6 for modern rosters and 2 to 4 for classic rosters.

              Fielder Run Speed and Fielder Reaction both moved to 2

              After extensive and meticulous testing on the time dilation effect and how to remove it, I found this point to be the best spot.

              Infield Arm Strength moved to 0

              Same reason as above. Best point to remove the time dilation effect.

              Outfield Arm Strength moved to 1

              Out of all the changes, this is actually the one I'm least confident in. On previous settings it seemed outfield needed to be one tick above infield, but maybe the relationship isn't linear and outfield might need an extra tick. More testing is needed.

              Baserunner Speed moved to 8

              Yup, that's right. 8. You can see why I was worried about being too offence favoured. Based on my testing, the difference between baserunner speed and fielder arm strength had the largest impact on the time dilation effect. A delta this large was needed in order to shake the effect.

              Baserunner Steal Ability moved to 1

              This needed to be tanked in order to compensate for the baserunning buffs. So far feels very natural, but I'm keeping a close eye on this one.

              This will mostly get rid of the time dilation effect. If you want to get rid of it completely, you have to turn up both pitch speed sliders to 10. It's a very minor difference though.

              And there you have it, no more time dilation effect. Posted bat exit velocity speeds will match appropriately with the rest of the game, and replays will closely resemble what you saw during play, as opposed to looking like a Benny Hill clip.

              Comment

              • TheWarmWind
                MVP
                • Apr 2015
                • 2620

                #82
                Re: TheWarmWind's Impact Sliders 2020

                V7 now available in the OP and the vault. The changelog is the same as the testing post above.

                As posted above, the only way to truly eliminate the time dilation effect is to max out pitch speeds, however their impact is minimal compare to throw power/baserunner speed delta or other factors.

                Comment

                • TheWarmWind
                  MVP
                  • Apr 2015
                  • 2620

                  #83
                  Re: TheWarmWind's Impact Sliders 2020

                  So I've run into a few problems, and also wanted to speed up the game some. I've been testing some changes for about 6 hours of gameplay and it's past muster so far, which makes me confident enough to make a "this is what I'm testing" post.

                  I'll make an update post with all the changes and why next time I'm in front of the TV with my laptop.

                  Comment

                  • The Kid 24
                    It's Show Time!
                    • Jan 2007
                    • 14762

                    #84
                    Re: TheWarmWind's Impact Sliders 2020

                    You not moving to 21?
                    Milwaukee Brewers | Green Bay Packers | North Carolina Tar Heels | Wisconsin Badgers

                    Comment

                    • TheWarmWind
                      MVP
                      • Apr 2015
                      • 2620

                      #85
                      Re: TheWarmWind's Impact Sliders 2020

                      Originally posted by The Kid 24
                      You not moving to 21?
                      No, without year to year I need to weigh improvements each year over dropping my 2014 carry over.

                      21 just doesn't have enough for me to do that.

                      Besides, I still haven't figured out the sliders in 20 yet. I think as I do this more and my testing methodology gets more refined, I'll take progressively longer and longer to build my sliders, so honestly I'm thankful for the break. I'll work on perfecting the sliders for 20, and some of the stuff I've learned will still apply in 21. I'll still be able to answer the "Hey I have x problem, what should I change?" question better than ever.
                      Last edited by TheWarmWind; 04-20-2021, 07:47 AM.

                      Comment

                      • TheWarmWind
                        MVP
                        • Apr 2015
                        • 2620

                        #86
                        Re: TheWarmWind's Impact Sliders 2020

                        Ok so here's the deal with what went wrong.

                        Long term testing was showing, in spite of my seemingly increased user offence, an extreme reduction in user controlled offence. My carry over had dropping numbers across the board, and my control franchise felt impossible to hit on. Either I was extremely unlucky, or my understanding of how one of the sliders worked was wrong.

                        My first guess was pitcher consistency. I had pumped CPU consistency all the way up to 10, yet I hadn't noticed much of a difference in the placement of pitches from even level 5. Sure there were less passed balls, but not by an amount worthy of discussion.

                        I also noticed that my pitchers were giving up far more high bat exit velocities then their CPU counterparts on solidly hit balls, in spite of having higher HR/9 and facing weaker competition.

                        Those two factors got me thinking that I didn't understand pitcher consistency. So, I committed to finding out, spending nearly 6 hours in my practice mode control scenario and another 6-10 hours in both carry over and control franchises, testing the effect of the pitcher consistency slider.

                        Here's the conclusion that I've come to. Pitcher consistency effects three things. They are listed in order of impact.

                        1. How consistently well the ball moves out of a pitchers hands. This scales non-linearly with the different pitches in a pitchers repertoire. For example: Lowering consistency to zero will only have a small impact on a pitcher's primary pitch. However, it will have exponentially rising impacts on the secondary, tertiary, etc pitches. Raising pitching consistency to max will also have the lowest impact on the primary pitch, but will make the rest of the pitcher's repertoire move with similar consistency to their primary pitch. Note: this is just about pitch movement, or how late/deceptive a pitch is. Will have an impact on strikeouts.

                        2. Effects the application of HR/9. Power effects bat exit velocity ceilings. Contact effects bat exit velocity floors. Pitcher consistency effects the bat exit velocity bell curve, moving the averages left or right.

                        3. Effects the control of pitches with bad inputs. Scales based on an exponent value with pitcher control. For example, in the sliders I'm testing, I raised human pitcher consistency 1 tick but lowered pitcher control 1 tick. Because it's harder to get a "perfect" input (ignore the "good" "ok" "bad" feedback, it's mostly wrong and usless, judge input based on how small the circle was compared to how small it could get) you'll actually get more "inconsistent" pitch locations. Since I can't control CPU inputs I've decided to make pitching more difficult for both parties.

                        Unfortunately all of this means there is no real test for knowing what the "right" setting for pitcher consistency is. It's all got to be done using the rough eyeball test, and over long periods of time. On top of that, the setting could need changing based on the particular roster or even just personal tastes. The difference between 1 tick on the slider is very subtle, so I'm going to slap an old "adjust to roster and personal taste" on this one. I firmly believe their can't be a one size fits all solution to this slider. Also, due to the obvious difference it CPU pitcher consistency between HoF and legend difficulties, I have even less of an idea of what the setting should be there than before. I'm not even sure there is overlap (ie a setting of 0 on legend might still be higher consistency than 10 on HoF). Without the time or inclination to test, I have to dump all first-hand support for any legend set. At this point I feel like I'd have to rebuild it from the ground up anyways. Sorry if you were holding out hope for that.

                        I also wanted to speed the game up some based on baseball being back and watching some live stuff. I had to turn everything up in order to keep the time dilation effect out of the game. I thing I've accomplished it, but this wasn't as thoroughly tested for the effect as V7 was.

                        Here is What I'm Currently Testing/Changelog

                        Human Pitcher Control: 3

                        Human Pitcher Consistency: 6

                        CPU Pitcher Consistency: 6
                        Hoping this causes CPU/human parity, but honestly this is a shot in the dark for now.

                        Fielder Run Speed: 3

                        Fielder Reaction: 3

                        Fielder Arm Strength Infield: 1

                        Fielder Arm Strength Outfield: 3

                        Baserunner Speed: 10

                        Baserunner steal ability may need to be turned down to 0, but I don't have enough data pointing one way or the other so it stays for now.

                        Edit: Something to keep in mind if you decide to try these sliders is that just because Human Pitcher consistency has gone up doesn't mean you can be less afraid of the zone. Yes, raising human pitcher consistency does lower the bell curve of bat exit velocities, but that's assuming all other factors are equal, including pitch location. If you pitch the same as you did in V7, you'll give up higher quality pitches to swing on more often. You can (and probably will) give up more home runs and hard hit balls. You need to be even more cautious of the zone on these settings, not less.
                        Last edited by TheWarmWind; 04-22-2021, 03:44 PM.

                        Comment

                        • The Kid 24
                          It's Show Time!
                          • Jan 2007
                          • 14762

                          #87
                          Re: TheWarmWind's Impact Sliders 2020

                          Ur sliders should work on 21, no? Cant see why the wouldnt.


                          Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports
                          Milwaukee Brewers | Green Bay Packers | North Carolina Tar Heels | Wisconsin Badgers

                          Comment

                          • TheWarmWind
                            MVP
                            • Apr 2015
                            • 2620

                            #88
                            Re: TheWarmWind's Impact Sliders 2020

                            Originally posted by The Kid 24
                            Ur sliders should work on 21, no? Cant see why the wouldnt.


                            Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports
                            Impossible to say. The hitting engine has recieved updates so it's unlikely. However stuff like raising pitching staminas in order to get the CPU to better manage their bullpen or changing fielding/baserunning speeds on order to remove the time dilation effect should still work.

                            Even if everything is different, it's not a bad place to start. You can always come here and ask me for advice if you see any long term issues pop up.

                            Sent from my Pixel 3 using Operation Sports mobile app

                            Comment

                            • TheWarmWind
                              MVP
                              • Apr 2015
                              • 2620

                              #89
                              Re: TheWarmWind's Impact Sliders 2020

                              Originally posted by TheWarmWind

                              Here is What I'm Currently Testing/Changelog

                              Human Pitcher Control: 3

                              Human Pitcher Consistency: 7

                              CPU Pitcher Consistency: 6
                              Hoping this causes CPU/human parity, but honestly this is a shot in the dark for now.

                              Fielder Run Speed: 3

                              Fielder Reaction: 2

                              Fielder Arm Strength Infield: 1

                              Fielder Arm Strength Outfield: 3

                              Baserunner Speed: 10

                              Baserunner steal ability may need to be turned down to 0, but I don't have enough data pointing one way or the other so it stays for now.
                              modifications to changelog highlighted in blue

                              Comment

                              • bryanm1982
                                MVP
                                • Nov 2016
                                • 3782

                                #90
                                Re: TheWarmWind's Impact Sliders 2020

                                I am trying to get the AI to better handle the bullpen. I think 21 is better. But I’m not sure how much they are using the pitcher in the SU #2 slot. So I been trying to remove that if they have room in the MR spots. What would happen if you put their weakest pitcher in the LR #2 spot?

                                I’m thinking the weakest pitcher will be used for games that are out of hand.
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