Mixing up your Pitches

[rudyjuly2]

I'm not sure where to put this topic as it involves talking about MLB 2K12 a bit. 2K12's newest blog details their pitching changes which involve punishing/rewarding a player in order to get them to pitch like the actual pitcher they use. For example, if Verlander throws 60% fastballs and 10% sliders, you need to pitch a game similar to that. If you throw sliders 40% of the time the game will punish you for it. Same goes for abusing location. If you are always throwing low and away (more than normal) the game will punish you. Pitch confidence is tied to overall success as well as tweaked for each batter based on the previous individual outcome.

I'd like to know how the Show handles this type of stuff. I know the Show has overall confidence and individual pitch confidence. But how much does the Show build in using proper pitch types and mixing up location under the hood? I know it won't be displayed but how does the game engine handle this type of stuff? Giving a pitcher's weak pitches a low rating usually pushes the player to not use those as often as their better ones but what about abusing location? Does the cpu AI learn from your tendencies? I'm curious.

[tvman]

Re: Mixing up your Pitches

Well it's definitely under the hood so it would all depend on who tells you what.

[letsgopens66]

Re: Mixing up your Pitches

The show just does it by ratings I believe. If one of my pitchers has a bad slider, then I rarely throw it. If I throw it more than I should, I get lit up.

[tvman]

Re: Mixing up your Pitches

The show just does it by ratings I believe. If one of my pitchers has a bad slider, then I rarely throw it. If I throw it more than I should, I get lit up.

Or if you do throw it throw it for a ball.

[rudyjuly2]

Re: Mixing up your Pitches

The show just does it by ratings I believe. If one of my pitchers has a bad slider, then I rarely throw it. If I throw it more than I should, I get lit up.

I think that's a fair solution to getting people to throwing the right selection of pitches. But what about pitch location?

[bcruise]

Re: Mixing up your Pitches

The show just does it by ratings I believe. If one of my pitchers has a bad slider, then I rarely throw it. If I throw it more than I should, I get lit up.

This....the Show's been doing this for a very long time IMO. I'm pretty sure all those charts in the analysis screens aren't just for show either - the AI can see how you're pitching and adjusts to that.

I've never been able to strike out batters repeatedly in the same way unless it's a truly overpowering pitch (triple digit fastball or a slider like Carlos Marmol's)

[nomo17k]

Re: Mixing up your Pitches

A short answer would be... only the game designer knows for sure.

From it looks like, though, I don't find 2K12's system very elegant. In my opinion, if the game needs to force you to pitch certain way, despite that IRL you have all the freedom to choose, that means the A.I. isn't smart/organic enough.

Pitcher/pitch confidence only affects the ability to locate pitches (according to Woodweaver the dev)... and that's important because it makes it possible for the pitcher to execute his strategy. After all, if you cannot locate your pitch to where you want, you cannot have a plan, can you. And the ability to pinpoint is very important to paint corners.

My guess for the Show (really, a pure guess though) is that the game wouldn't punish you artificially for not following a certain pitch pattern... what happens is that the opponent (in this case, the CPU hitter) tries to recognize your pitching pattern, and continually make adjustment according to what s/he finds.

[thaSLAB]

Yes, but it is pretty much under the hood. That is what the API (Adaptive Pitching Intelligence) system is based off of. When you have API turned on, it is on the surface when you are pitching, thus your catcher is calling the game.


Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk

[tvman]

Re: Mixing up your Pitches

Yes, but it is pretty much under the hood. That is what the API (Adaptive Pitching Intelligence) system is based off of. When you have API turned on, it is on the surface when you are pitching, thus your catcher is calling the game.


Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk

If API is the brain behind the cpu then it's not done very well, it's the first thing i turn off.

[thaSLAB]

Re: Mixing up your Pitches

If API is the brain behind the cpu then it's not done very well, it's the first thing i turn off.

Of course it is... And I meant it's the other way around, the API is derived from this background logic.

Anyway, A-Gon tends to think it's effective...

http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=espn:7579148

[nemesis04]

Re: Mixing up your Pitches

If API is the brain behind the cpu then it's not done very well, it's the first thing i turn off.

The API system is too generic. The catcher basically calls the game based on the pitcher's strengths and does not really factor in a specific batter or counts imo. I generally turn it off as well because I can call a much better game concerning pitch selection and location.

The CPU does pick up on your pitching tendencies and will punish you but it is not advertised. You need to figure out how to change it up and gain success with selection and location.

I am not sure how I feel about what 2k is implementing. They are putting you on rails to force you to pitch exactly like a particular MLB pitcher.

[tvman]

Re: Mixing up your Pitches

The API system is too generic. The catcher basically calls the game based on the pitcher's strengths and does not really factor in a specific batter or counts imo. I generally turn it off as well because I can call a much better game concerning pitch selection and location.

The CPU does pick up on your pitching tendencies and will punish you but it is not advertised. You need to figure out how to change it up and gain success with selection and location.

I am not sure how I feel about what 2k is implementing. They are putting you on rails to force you to pitch exactly like a particular MLB pitcher.

Ok that's what i thought, it's hidden. The cpu hitters will kill you eventually if you keep repeating the same pitch type and locations. Like you say though the API is more or less useless.

[SoxFan01605]

Re: Mixing up your Pitches

I am not sure how I feel about what 2k is implementing. They are putting you on rails to force you to pitch exactly like a particular MLB pitcher.

Yeah, I can see why some would assume that, but I think that impression is more a case of who the creator is rather than the creation itself...lol. I mean, I'm not sure how I feel either (given the history), but I don't know that the level of guidance you're assuming will be the case.

To me, it simply sounds more like you are being rewarded for pitching like MLB pitchers and risk not being as effective if you don't. The fact that Inside Edge is driving it is what intrigues me. I'd rather have legit scouting data driving the system than something arbitrary or generic, but the actual influence of IE has always been tenuous in the game, so I'm curious as to just how much impact it really has.

Functionally though, it doesn't sound a whole lot different than The Show IMO, other than it's more on the surface and has indicators to hold the user's hand more (hopefully they can either be turned off or, on PC at least, modded away). So you might be more aware of it than in The Show which, I guess, could contribute to that "on rails" impression some seem to have.

The resulting "punishment" seems the same in both games though-you fall into predictable patterns and you get hurt. In theory, it sounds like a needed and, frankly, long overdue upgrade for 2K. Of course, it all comes down to execution...which is always the question mark with 2K baseball.

[rudyjuly2]

Re: Mixing up your Pitches

Totally agree Soxfan. Never know how 2K is going to implement it or if it will be different than what the Show does under the hood but I like the idea.

Personally I have never used the Show or 2K's suggestions while pitching. I've never liked them that much and prefer to call my own game. I do pitch to my player's strengths and try to mix it up so I can only assume that the game would just reward me for playing the way I normally play.

What I would love to see (in all sports games really) is a learning cpu with regards to all tendencies. I may use Verlander and throw 60% fastball, 20% curverball, 15% changeup and 5% slider to match his real life selection. But would the game pick up on stuff if 90% of my first pitch was a fastball? Or if on every 0-2 or 1-2 count I'm throwing a curveball? Would a specific batter learn if I always pounded him up and in with fastballs even though I may not do that with everyone? Those are the kinds of AI things that I thought we would be getting in all sports games after NFL 2K started developing their VIP system back in 2003 (or earlier). I don't think we are close to being there yet.

I do love how 2K had the VIP tendencies last year and you could track your hit charts and percentages. Anyone know if the Show will have something like that?

[nomo17k]

Re: Mixing up your Pitches

One thing I really don't like about the said 2K12 system is because I feel the system is backward.

The fact that a pitcher tends to mix pitches at certain fractions is a result of his approach, which depends on situational factors as well, and not because that's necessarily the right way to mix pitches.

One thing I like about the pitch confidence system in the Show is that it simulates how on certain days certain pitches may not just be working for the pitcher.

If your changeup isn't working at all on a certain day, would it make sense for him to still use changeup certain amount of time, because apparently that's his average usage which the game interprets to be the best strategy? I don't think so... If you are RHP going against a lineup filled with LHBs, does it make sense to use slider as often as he does against RHBs? I don't think so...

If the system is working like that under the food, I think at some point we end up feeling something is not realistic.