Players expect owners to seek cap

[deeman11747]

Re: Players expect owners to seek cap

Then why are you advocating a cap? Everyone knows the Yanks and even the Sawx can get preety much any player they covet. The 5 year period of World Series is nice and all, but It doesn't change the fact that teams like the Royals, Rays and Pirates have zero shot at making the playoffs unless there's a way for teams to not be able to spend a rediculous 185 million dollars on payroll. Seriously, I look at the Yanks payroll and it's an absolute joke. Even if the owners aren't pocketing some money, there's no way they will come close to 200 million, let alone 100 million.

Besides, you don't need a hard cap. The one the NBA has is fine and I'd love to see MLB implement it.

I'm not adovcating a cap... look in my other post.

[Vince]

Re: Players expect owners to seek cap

whoops

[Thrasha]

Re: Players expect owners to seek cap

http://tsn.ca/nhl/news_story.asp?id=131048

I'm not sure a salary cap is needed in baseball but the current luxury tax is a huge joke.

There's no way Bud Selig and Donald Fehr can look any D-Rays, Royals, Brewers, Pirates, etc... fan in the eye and tell them they're on a level playing field.

I'm pretty sure no sports league in the world has a big of a payroll gap between what the Yanks and D-Rays have.

Give me a f*cking break

If those owners weren't stingy SOB's they would field a contending team with the rest of the league, but they choose not to.

I say strengthen the luxury tax and that's it. Their is no reason to cap teams that actually want to put money back into their team and field a winning ball club.

Now people will throw the Yankees out their for an example, but look at their roster. they are the worst team IMO that 200 million can buy. And until recently they've been struggling to get at the top of the AL East.

[Thrasha]

Re: Players expect owners to seek cap

There's no way in hell there should be a hard cap without at least a hard floor. This will never happen because the ****head "small market" billionaire owners (David Glass of KC, Carl Pohlad of MIN, Steve Schott of the A's, Vince Naimoli of TB, etc etc) will never agree to the floor, so it's all a moot point.

The other thing is, there's no way in hell the MLBPA will agree to a hard cap. The MLBPA is the most powerful union in North America. They will not make a concession such as this, especially with their latest caving on the steroid issue AND the recent economic success for most teams.

I honestly don't see what's wrong with the current system... The Yankees are paying up the *** every year in luxury taxes. For every dollar they spend on talent, they pay an additional 40 cents during this 2005 season. Given a payroll of $208M, you're looking at a tremendous amount of money being dished out to the other teams.

I think in the next CBA, they should increase the hit for going over the set tax amount for repeat offenders such as NY and Boston.

this guy is easily my favorite poster here on OS

nice to have you aboard although you've been here for a little bit

[lkreb6135]

Re: Players expect owners to seek cap

Then why are you advocating a cap? Everyone knows the Yanks and even the Sawx can get preety much any player they covet. The 5 year period of World Series is nice and all, but It doesn't change the fact that teams like the Royals, Rays and Pirates have zero shot at making the playoffs unless there's a way for teams to not be able to spend a rediculous 185 million dollars on payroll. Seriously, I look at the Yanks payroll and it's an absolute joke. Even if the owners aren't pocketing some money, there's no way they will come close to 200 million, let alone 100 million.

Besides, you don't need a hard cap. The one the NBA has is fine and I'd love to see MLB implement it.

to challenge what you just said that the royals D rays and Pirates will never compete for a WS. That is totally wrong it takes time for a development plan to be put in place. first look a the pirates, yes a couple of years ago they traded away a talented player in A. Ramirez for a bag of balls but there was reasoning because there was word that he was a selfish player. Next, they have made poor prospect decisions, which causes them to reload like a Twins team could. All they have to do is sign O. Perez, and Jason Bay to long term deal they will have the makings of a solid cornerstone, but they lack the strong minor leagues to compete in the near future.

D - Rays
Now they are in a position to make some noise in the next couple of years. Given yes Lamar is a pud, but they have some of the most talented prospects in MLB. If i am not mistaken they have also just signed Carl Cawford to a long term deal. Dealing people like Huff and Baez is not a big deal because they got Orvella, gaithwright, upton, young all waiting in the wings. If some of their young pitchers develop in the next couple of years they will be the next florida marlins. Lets not forget what got the D - Rays in this mess in the first place, spending for overpriced talent.

Royals
Just a few years ago this was the team on the rise. What did they do? They went out and spent some money. So don't make is sound like they would never do it. They made the right move by trading Beltran he wanted to much and they had Dejesus waiting.

To conclude i just feel that excessive spending of small market teams gets them in this problem in the first place.

[DGetz]

Re: Players expect owners to seek cap

First off, it should be pretty clear that money doesnt mean success automatically.

Aside of that, under the crrent luxury tax/revanue sharing system the poorer teams get a lot of money. If I recall correctly in either 2004 or 2005 the Devil Rays picked up like 25 million from it - more than their entire payroll. And I'm also sure that in a recent Outside the Lines it was said the D-Rays made like the third or fourth highest profit of any MLB team, their problem is not that they dont have enough money to add payroll, it's that their owner is intereted in making a personal profit off the team.

Aside of that not having a luxury tax allows teams to take risks. If a team wants to overspend, trying to to buy a championship, knowing full well they could lose a lot of money, then they should be able to take that risk. A lot of that sort of thing a root of the NHL problems. Take the Capitals for example, they signed Jagr to a 11 mil/year deal and sign free agents trying to make a run at the Cup, failed, and then Leonsis went on to cry about how the league should institute a financial structure under which the owners are protected from themselves, an absurd concept. Now I definetly think there should be a great deal of revenue sharing and a luxury tax, but I also think teams should be able to take the risk of stretching their finances to try and win a title.

[mjb2124]

Re: Players expect owners to seek cap

If those owners weren't stingy SOB's they would field a contending team with the rest of the league, but they choose not to.

And if these owners don't have the money to do so?

Some are stingy and others really don't have that much money. There's a serious problem in baseball when one team spends 35 Million and another spends 208 Million (and a stingy Owner isn't it when the gap is that large). A luxury tax/revenue sharing plan is not going to fix that. The gap is way too big for that 35 million dollar team to even come close to competing. It's not a choice of the owner, but a problem with the economics of the game.

It's a redundant cycle. If you don't have the luxury of spending the big money on bigtime players, you won't put a good product on the field. Fans don't want to see a poor product and won't come. Fans don't come and reveune drops even further. Now what do you do? You can build from within and through the draft, but that takes many years. Once you do build from within, how do you keep those star players when they become free agents and when other owners offer them 7-8 million more than a small market owner can offer?

If a cap is installed, a floor needs to be set as well. I think 50-60 is acceptable as a floor and a 150 cap is acceptable.

That's just the way I see it though. Small market fans see the struggles their team goes through every year and know how far off they really are. Large market don't see the struggles of the small market and don't care. Can't blame them, but it doesn't eliminate the fact that there's a big economi problem in baseball right now.

[GBrushTWood]

Re: Players expect owners to seek cap

From what I can tell based on readings about these issues, there are TONS of little loopholes that allow ownerships such as the ones for the Yankees, Red Sox, Mets, Cubs, et al to funnel revenues towards accounts not counted against the MLB taxable monies.

In English: the big market teams have ways of creating entities (such as "New England Sports Ventures" with Henry, Werner, Lucchino, I think) that remain separate from the actual "Boston Red Sox" of Major League Baseball. These monies can be pumped back into the team, thus creating an advantage for the larger market teams when you have a cash cow cable network (YES, NESN, WGN, Mets will have one starting in '06 IIRC). This is one of the MAJOR problems with the current system IMO, and I don't see any way that it gets fixed. I would imagine it gets swept under the carpet until the issue turns nuclear.

At the point we're at now, I can't imagine the owners and players bringing up these hardcore economic issues. Everybody's making so much money that I would think at the bargaining table, each side would essentially say, "You're making dough, we're making dough, let's table this for now..."
Of course, greed and trying to bone the other side in the rear end could always change this..

Another thing- all books for MLB teams are closed and are not disclosed to the public. We have a good idea of payroll situations, but we have no clue about money made from outside ventures such as NESN, YES, and "non-baseball related activities". The owners will never open the books up, so we'll never have an idea of who is actually making the most money (probably the Yankees just guessing), who has the most dough and is unwilling to spend, etc etc

These issues are fairly complex, so it's funny to see people suggesting "just put in a hard cap!". In a vaccuum, that might work, but in reality, there's just too many factors that muddy the issues..

[Thrasha]

Re: Players expect owners to seek cap

And if these owners don't have the money to do so?

Some are stingy and others really don't have that much money. There's a serious problem in baseball when one team spends 35 Million and another spends 208 Million (and a stingy Owner isn't it when the gap is that large). A luxury tax/revenue sharing plan is not going to fix that. The gap is way too big for that 35 million dollar team to even come close to competing. It's not a choice of the owner, but a problem with the economics of the game.

It's a redundant cycle. If you don't have the luxury of spending the big money on bigtime players, you won't put a good product on the field. Fans don't want to see a poor product and won't come. Fans don't come and reveune drops even further. Now what do you do? You can build from within and through the draft, but that takes many years. Once you do build from within, how do you keep those star players when they become free agents and when other owners offer them 7-8 million more than a small market owner can offer?

If a cap is installed, a floor needs to be set as well. I think 50-60 is acceptable as a floor and a 150 cap is acceptable.

That's just the way I see it though. Small market fans see the struggles their team goes through every year and know how far off they really are. Large market don't see the struggles of the small market and don't care. Can't blame them, but it doesn't eliminate the fact that there's a big economi problem in baseball right now.

Billy Beane and the Oakland A's say hello

Like Brush just stated, we aren't privy to the actual ammounts other teams are receiving via non-baseball related activities.

But I am dead positive, that if you have enough money, with or without a cable network purchasing rights to broadcasts the bulk of your games, that you are rich enough to invest more than 50-65 million into your franchise.

I feel bad for the fans of teams like the Twins, Pirates, Royals etc. But the league shouldn't have to change because some owners, like I've already delicately put it, are greedy SOB's.

You've got a team like the Baltimore Orioles, who without a doubt in my mind have to be tops in the league in revenue but are refusing to buckle on a trade that could possibly catapault them to a divsion title, because of a contract by Mike Lowell. Do I understand not wanting to be burdened by a contract of that nature? Most definitely. But too build a team into contention, you sometimes have to bite the bullet. Which they are appearing to be more than willing to not to do and stand pat while the Yankees and Red Sox continue the race without them.

[Vince]

Re: Players expect owners to seek cap

Billy Beane and the Oakland A's say hello

The A's are exhibit A,B and C of why we need a cap. BB can only do so much, but after that he has to trade his players because he knows he won't be able to afford them.

[mjb2124]

Re: Players expect owners to seek cap

Billy Beane and the Oakland A's say hello

Like Brush just stated, we aren't privy to the actual ammounts other teams are receiving via non-baseball related activities.

But I am dead positive, that if you have enough money, with or without a cable network purchasing rights to broadcasts the bulk of your games, that you are rich enough to invest more than 50-65 million into your franchise.

The A's actually prove some of my point. They didn't have the money to keep Tejada, Mulder and Hudson (and whomever else I'm forgetting about). Yes they were playoff contenders for a few years due to great drafts and players panning out, but still never had enough to win the big one so it really was all for naught. Once those players finished their 6 years of service to the team who drafted them, they were gone.

I see the same thing in Pittsburgh. Lots of good players have been sent elsewhere due to cost cutting. Aramis Ramirez was traded for a bucket of balls. Jason Bay will be gone when his 6 years of MLB service is up, same with Zack Duke, Oliver Perez etc...

Anyhow, I realize that money isn't going to change everything. Teams still need to draft well and make other positive moves. However, something ultimately needs to be done to even the playing field.

I think there are a lot of teams in a lot worse shape than people realize. When a team like the Pirates can only draw 20K per game due to poor performance for 13 straight years and is in a smaller city, the revenue just isn't there. The Pirates Owner stated he's lost over 30 million on this team since he purchased it. Whether that's true or not is another thing. However, why wouldn't an owner put more money into a team if he could? Afterall, you create a winner, you'll draw more fans which in turn creates more revenue. Reach the playoffs and there's more money coming your way as an owner. Reach the World Series and there's even more money.

[GBrushTWood]

Re: Players expect owners to seek cap

However, why wouldn't an owner put more money into a team if he could? Afterall, you create a winner, you'll draw more fans which in turn creates more revenue. Reach the playoffs and there's more money coming your way as an owner. Reach the World Series and there's even more money.

Because putting more money into the team doesn't guarantee anything. It might increase your likelihood of reaching the promised land, but you still need to make the right decisions WITH that money.
The owner thinks to himself: "Well, I could try to put some more money back into the game, work on building it into a bigger cash cow, and potentially be even more profitable in 3 years. It could also possibly come crashing onto my head if my baseball ops people are moe-rons.

Or, I could just pocket the money I have in my hand right now from ticket gate revenues, sponsorship, luxury tax distribution, merchandise, and all that stuff with no possible risk. I'll take the less risky proposition."

It's all about managing risk and potential rewards/costs.

I think we're all overstating the cheapness factor however. The owners money is his money. Nobody else's. Who are we to judge what another man does with his money? If you really don't like, then stop pumping money into the team.

There are certainly cheap ownerships out there, but to simply disregard the enormous advantage the Red Sox and Yankees have in terms of markets is simply disingenuous. There's no question that it IS a factor in the economics. The real question is: should it be a factor? Should a team with more fans because of popularity, market, or what have you be in a better position than a team without?

I have no answer to that question. Though on a purely superficial level, it's similar to the big states vs. little states disagreement on representation in our United States government about 250 years ago..

[mjb2124]

Re: Players expect owners to seek cap

I agree. That's why I stated that these small market Owners need to spend money wisely and make good personnel decisions first and foremost. Small Market teams can't throw 15 million/yr at a Mario Mendoza type hitter and expect things to be OK. Whereas a large market team can make a mistake like that and it won't hurt them as much. In either case it's a terrible move, but it affects a small market much more.

I have stopped putting money into the Pirates. I used to have season tickets, then it dropped to a 30 game plan, then it dropped to a 10 game plan, now it's nothing. I attend 1 game/yr at most. It's just not worth my time and energy anymore to spend $80-$100 to attend a game when the product on the field is so poor. I'd much rather go out to a movie or sit on my couch and watch the game on my HDTV. Not that it means much though....

[Thrasha]

Re: Players expect owners to seek cap

The A's are exhibit A,B and C of why we need a cap. BB can only do so much, but after that he has to trade his players because he knows he won't be able to afford them.

The A's are exhibit A, B and C as to why owners should stop being greedy and actually put money back into bettering their team.

The A's actually prove some of my point. They didn't have the money to keep Tejada, Mulder and Hudson (and whomever else I'm forgetting about). Yes they were playoff contenders for a few years due to great drafts and players panning out, but still never had enough to win the big one so it really was all for naught. Once those players finished their 6 years of service to the team who drafted them, they were gone.

Partly true. Tejada was let go because Beane thought/thinks that Chavez was the better investment, and seeing as though he had Crosby waiting in the wings, it made the most sense for the team.

With Mulder and Hudson, the odds were that he wasn't able to keep them at the end of the year. But in the deal where he shipped Mulder off to the Cardinals, he easily got the best of them. The only area in which Haren hasn't gotten the better of Mulder is in the W/L category, pretty much all attribute to the fact that the A's were struggling to score runs early on. I believe in the Hudson deal he took younger players who haven't contributed much to the team as of yet.

High payrolls don't mean that you are automatically a contender, I think that's evident if you give the 03/04 Mets as an example.

There are certainly cheap ownerships out there, but to simply disregard the enormous advantage the Red Sox and Yankees have in terms of markets is simply disingenuous. There's no question that it IS a factor in the economics. The real question is: should it be a factor? Should a team with more fans because of popularity, market, or what have you be in a better position than a team without?

Do you think if the Yankees didn't spend like they do or did, they would have a cable deal or have the fan following they do? I know they would still have fans even if they weren't spending at will as they've done in the past. But I can't imagine them being as well received if Steinbrenner ran his organization like the Pirates. It all goes hand in hand.

You guys don't think the Tribune Company has the ability to add to their payroll? Please

They knew they needed outfield help this year, but still stuck it out with Patterson and whoever the hell else they've got out their. A premiere franchise player is on the market this offseason that could help their team for a long time, and they choose to keep costs down. (Carlos Beltran)

You will never convince me that an owner, even if he isn't rich as Steinbrenner, John Henry etc. That they still can't afford to improve their ballclub via FA or the trade market, no matter the cost.

[GBrushTWood]

Re: Players expect owners to seek cap

Again, we have no way of proving what is coming in, so arguing either way is a waste..

If you wanted to do some investigating regarding each team owner's finances outside of baseball, this would help shed light on the matter.