Once again. No love for the White Sox.

[snepp]

Re: Once again. No love for the White Sox.

Here are my pre-free-agent-pre-spring-training picks....

[soxboy7]

Re: Once again. No love for the White Sox.

It's ok snepp, go ahead and pick the Twins to win it all. I won't make fun of you ....promise. Oh who am I kidding, sure I'd make fun of you

[Thrasha]

Re: Once again. No love for the White Sox.

A.J. Burnett - Can you say OVERRATED? What ever team that signs him will definately overpay him. He' been in the league for 5 season and hasn't won no more than 12 games in a season. PLUS! He's a head case. Florida management told him to go home after an outburst. Sound like a crybaby to me.
Kevin Millwood - Cleveland definately overpaid for him. $7 million for a 9-11 pitcher?

Wins and losses are the absolute worst stats to cherry pick to determine if a pitcher is good or not.

[Dice]

Re: Once again. No love for the White Sox.

Wins and losses are the absolute worst stats to cherry pick to determine if a pitcher is good or not.

This is true BUT after 5 FULL seasons in the majors you should have won more than 12 games in a season by now. And for the money teams are willing to pay for him I don't think he's worth all that.

[PdiddyPop]

Re: Once again. No love for the White Sox.

This is true BUT after 5 FULL seasons in the majors you should have won more than 12 games in a season by now. And for the money teams are willing to pay for him I don't think he's worth all that.

He's not, and good grief so what it's a poll!! You have a World Series Title. Enjoy it for goodness sakes. Why are you guys so paranoid about getting pub? Didn't you win without pub last year? Why would you want any? It's just even more pressure than it's going to be to repeat. Baseball Playoff berth's aren't done by polls. Just win games and you have nothing to worry about.

[mjb2124]

Re: Once again. No love for the White Sox.

This is true BUT after 5 FULL seasons in the majors you should have won more than 12 games in a season by now.

Doesn't matter. Wins are purely a byproduct of the team one plays on. IMO they aren't even worth keeping as a stat for pitchers.

[Dice]

Re: Once again. No love for the White Sox.

Doesn't matter. Wins are purely a byproduct of the team one plays on. IMO they aren't even worth keeping as a stat for pitchers.

And I'm not denying that. BUT it's to a certain point. Yes. Any average pitcher can pitch on a great team and get 20+ wins. Now over the course of a career(particually 5 years) you have to prove that you can win SOMETHING. Burnett has to prove that he can win more than 12 games in a season. And it's not like he's played on some horrid teams. Maybe early in his career he played on bad teams but the Marlins are much better than they were in his first years there and he still can't win more than 12 games.

Sometimes Wins can be overlooked as in the case of Roger Clemens this year(who should have won the Cy Young). But good pitchers can still find ways to collect wins in a season despite the teams performance. Mike Mussina pulled out 19 wins in 1995 for a 71-73 Baltimore team. Greg Maddux won 20 games for a 78-84 team in 1992. Denny Neagle won 14 games for the 73-89 Pirates in 1996 and he's not even a hall of fame player.

Going back to Clemens, it's really not nesseccary to make a case for him. We already know he's a proven winner. But there comes a time where you have to starting winning as a pitcher. And after 5 years Burnett needs to prove himself of the dollars he's going to make by at least winning more than 12 games.

[Misfit]

Re: Once again. No love for the White Sox.

How can you say Burnett has had 5 full seasons when injuries have only allowed him to make 27 or more starts 3 times in his career? He's also played on some horrible offensive teams as the Marlins have never been known for their hitting. He missed almost the entire year when they won it all in 2003. Burnett is a solid pitcher. He probably isn't a number 1 but he can be a good number 2 on many teams. I'll even go out on a limb and say, barring injury, he out performs Jon Garland next year. The only area where Garland was better than Burnett this year was in the walks department. Garland allowed opposing hitters to hit .255 off of him last year. While not terrible, he only struck out 4.68 batters per nine innings. And for a sinker-ball type pitcher, he certainly gives up a ton of homeruns. I would expect him to come down to earth next year.

[mjb2124]

Re: Once again. No love for the White Sox.

How can you say Burnett has had 5 full seasons when injuries have only allowed him to make 27 or more starts 3 times in his career?

Bingo. It's widely known that Burnett has some of the best stuff in the majors. His ONLY problem is he hasn't stayed healthy.

Again, I don't buy the wins arguement. Maybe Burnett is just one of those hard luck guys who only gets 2 runs per game on average? Wins are the very last thing anyone should ever look at to judge a pitcher. ERA is a little better, ERA+ is better than ERA, WHIP is better than both of those stats and VORP is also a very intriguing pitcher stat.

EDIT - I almost forgot about FIP. That stat is actually designed to measure all those things for which a pitcher is specifically responsible. The formula is (HR*13+(BB+HBP)*3-K*2)/IP, plus a league-specific factor (usually around 3.2) to round out the number to an equivalent ERA number.

[Dice]

Re: Once again. No love for the White Sox.

Bingo. It's widely known that Burnett has some of the best stuff in the majors. His ONLY problem is he hasn't stayed healthy.

And that's why he isn't worth the money he's about to make. And there's no denying his stuff. The kid has excellent stuff but he can never put a complete season together because of injuries, bad teams or whatever excuse you want to make for this guy.

Burnett has had great moments and great games BUT he's not a great pitcher and isn't worth great-pitcher money. For now, he'll be the kid with great stuff but can't put together a great season.

[Dice]

Re: Once again. No love for the White Sox.

How can you say Burnett has had 5 full seasons when injuries have only allowed him to make 27 or more starts 3 times in his career? He's also played on some horrible offensive teams as the Marlins have never been known for their hitting. He missed almost the entire year when they won it all in 2003. Burnett is a solid pitcher. He probably isn't a number 1 but he can be a good number 2 on many teams. I'll even go out on a limb and say, barring injury, he out performs Jon Garland next year. The only area where Garland was better than Burnett this year was in the walks department. Garland allowed opposing hitters to hit .255 off of him last year. While not terrible, he only struck out 4.68 batters per nine innings. And for a sinker-ball type pitcher, he certainly gives up a ton of homeruns. I would expect him to come down to earth next year.

My momma always says, "you go out on a limb and you might fall from the tree." When you talk about Garland and Burnett it could be true that Burnett can out perform Garland. BUT the key words of 'barring injury' is something that's going to keep Burnett from doing that.

And also remember, Burnett is a pre-madonna. He's a head-case and a cancer. When the Marlins started to slide in September this was the same guy that ripped Jack McKeon and the coaching staff in public because he stated that the staff was 'too negative'. Shortly after that he was told by management to go home and never come back. Sounds like Terrell Owens before Terrell Owens? And this was after he dropped his 6th straight decision. Oh yeah, and for those who don't like the 'wins' stat he had an ERA of 7.46 during the 6-game loosing streak. Maybe the coaching staff might have been right to tell him he was playing like crap and just suck it up!

Now Garland hasn't been any better career wise against Burnett but I will say this about Garland: He better mentally than Burnett and he's more reliable. Garland had his problems on the field also. Matter of fact, he was brutal his first couple of years. He also was moved to the Bullpen in his second season with the White Sox. And did Garland cry about it? Nope. He knew he played like crap and he had to do something about it or he was going to be shipped out of there. As time went on he was just like Burnett, a pitcher with good stuff and never a good season. And Garland had no execuses because he always started 30+ games. But he finally rid himself of the problem he had in the past, WALKS. And turned it into a 18 win season and World Series championship for his team.

Garland doesn't have Burnett 'stuff' BUT if he did Garland would be in the running for the Cy Young award every year. And if Garland was a free agent he probably wouldn't get offered the type of money Burnett is getting because he doesn't deserve it either.

[Thrasha]

Re: Once again. No love for the White Sox.

I'll even go out on a limb and say, barring injury, he out performs Jon Garland next year. The only area where Garland was better than Burnett this year was in the walks department. Garland allowed opposing hitters to hit .255 off of him last year. While not terrible, he only struck out 4.68 batters per nine innings. And for a sinker-ball type pitcher, he certainly gives up a ton of homeruns. I would expect him to come down to earth next year.

Well put, he had a pretty crappy GB/FB rate this year as well. I can't remember what it was, wish I could find it, but it just seems this is a one "fluke" type year some pitchers seem to stumble upon at time.

[SportsTop]

Re: Once again. No love for the White Sox.

GB: 332
FB: 230
GB/FB: 1.44

[deeman11747]

Re: Once again. No love for the White Sox.

Well put, he had a pretty crappy GB/FB rate this year as well. I can't remember what it was, wish I could find it, but it just seems this is a one "fluke" type year some pitchers seem to stumble upon at time.

Garland of 2005= Loaiza of 2003

Great for one year fantasy..... wouldnt dream of drafting them the next year.

[Stoud]

Re: Once again. No love for the White Sox.

Garland of 2005= Loaiza of 2003

Great for one year fantasy..... wouldnt dream of drafting them the next year.

I wouldn't go that far. The guy is like 26, right? That's still pretty young for a starting pitcher. Although his ERA might go up a bit next year, it appears he's found his stuff to some point, and is going to be a formidable opponent for years to come. Loaiza is an old fart. Comparing him to Garland is like Comparing a potato chip to a fly on the wall. They just don't go together.