Alex Rodriguez wins AL MVP

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  • Misfit
    All Star
    • Mar 2003
    • 5766

    #31
    Re: Alex Rodriguez wins AL MVP

    Originally posted by jpup
    Ortiz .300/.397/.604/1.003
    Arod .321/.421/.610/1.031

    Ortiz did not deserve to win the MVP. If there is any argument to be made, it's for second place. Travis Hafner could have easily been second.

    You can't just look at overall production when the numbers are that close for a 162 game season.

    Jayson Stark wrote an excellent article on why he thinks Ortiz should have been the league MVP (espn.com):

    Alex Rodriguez had 24 more at-bats with runners in scoring position than David Ortiz this season -- and still drove in 18 fewer runs. That ought to tell you something. But if it doesn't, we'll spell it out for you.

    Ortiz hit 62 points higher than A-Rod did with runners in scoring position (.352 to .290) overall. And that's an awfully large gap in a race this close. But that's in all games, in all RBI situations. If you keep looking, you find that as the games got tighter, that gap just kept getting bigger.

    In the late innings of close games, A-Rod hit .176 with men in scoring position; Ortiz batted .313. That's a humongous, 137-point difference. But why stop there?

    David Ortiz and Alex Rodriguez
    Ortiz (right) came close to being the first full-time DH to win the MVP, but A-Rod prevailed thanks to his defense.

    Ortiz's OPS (on-base plus slugging) in those situations was 1.224 -- to A-Rod's .813. That's a 411-point chasm.

    But hold on. We're still not done. If you keep breaking down their numbers in tight games, the case for Rodriguez only gets worse.

    In the 20 games each of their teams won by six or more runs, A-Rod hit .549, had an OPS of 1.793 and racked up 46 of his 130 RBI (35 percent). Ortiz, on the other hand, batted .277, had an OPS almost 800 points lower than A-Rod's (.999) and drove in only 33 runs (22 percent of his overall total).

    But in close games (games that either went to extra innings or were decided by one or two runs in regulation), the numbers look a whole lot different.

    In those games -- and each team played exactly 65 of them -- A-Rod batted only .243, had an OPS of .805 and drove in just 38 runs (29 percent). Ortiz, meanwhile, clearly tapped some mysterious force that made him even better in moments like that -- batting .321, running up an OPS of 1.116 and knocking in nearly a run a game (62 -- or 42 percent of his overall total).
    Thats the argument for me, and I'm kind of irritated with the inconsistent writers myself. Did Ortiz get robbed? No, I won't go that far. Arod wasn't an unjust choice but, in my opinion, was not the best choice. If the MVP award is going to be for overall offensive player of the year, then let's just call it that (though I'm not sure, but didn't Ortiz win the AL offensive player of the year award?), or if a player needs to play a certain amount of games in the field then let's throw that into the criteria. The baseball writers have once again proven that they are walking contradictions since they have been so eager to give the award in the past to offensive players who stumble around in the field (I honestly cannot think of a first baseman I have seen play who was worse in the field than Jason Giambi, and even he won an MVP). If it isn't going to be about the player that is most VALUABLE(which it seems clear, Ortiz was more valuable to the Red Sox than Arod was to the Yankees) then just change the name of the award already.

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    • Kashanova
      Hall Of Fame
      • Aug 2003
      • 12695

      #32
      Re: Alex Rodriguez wins AL MVP

      Who's to say if ortiz plays defense that he won't get tired down the stretch and his numbers go down, he doesn't save the team from a double or something he doesn't make big plays defensively so i think thats why he didn't win it, and btw giambi is worlds above ortiz defensively

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      • ehh
        Hall Of Fame
        • Mar 2003
        • 28962

        #33
        Re: Alex Rodriguez wins AL MVP

        Originally posted by Misfit

        Jayson Stark wrote an excellent article on why he thinks Ortiz should have been the league MVP (espn.com):

        If it isn't going to be about the player that is most VALUABLE(which it seems clear, Ortiz was more valuable to the Red Sox than Arod was to the Yankees) then just change the name of the award already.

        I agree 100% that Papi was better at the plate this year as well as more clutch. But I'm standing firm that no DH should ever win the MVP award. And if Ortiz didn't get it this year I doubt any ever will.


        Yes, Ortiz hit so much higher w. RISP and so on and so forth. But how many runs did A-Rod save with his glove? How many times did A-Rod move up a base that allowed the Yanks to steal an extra run they wouldn't have normally had. A-Rod is far and away a better overall player than Ortiz. A Gold Glover in the field and a threat on the bases. He's a 5-tool player who beat out a 2-tool player.

        If Papi played 100 games at first base this season then he'd have won the award hands down.



        And for the second part of the quote, again that's a moot point because if it was actually the most valuable player then Mo would win it in a landslide.
        "You make your name in the regular season, and your fame in the postseason." - Clyde Frazier

        "Beware of geeks bearing formulas." - Warren Buffet

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        • Stu
          All Star
          • Jun 2004
          • 7924

          #34
          Re: Alex Rodriguez wins AL MVP

          Originally posted by ehh
          If Papi played 100 games at first base this season then he'd have won the award hands down.
          Nobody will ever be able to convince me that Ortiz would have been more valuable to the Red Sox if he played half a season of poor defense.

          I don't think A-Rod was undeserving of the MVP, but he was not as valuable to his team as Ortiz was, defense or no defense. As Terry Francona said: "We win games that other teams are going to lose because we have David in our lineup"
          Sim Gaming Network

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          • ehh
            Hall Of Fame
            • Mar 2003
            • 28962

            #35
            Re: Alex Rodriguez wins AL MVP

            Originally posted by camulos
            Nobody will ever be able to convince me that Ortiz would have been more valuable to the Red Sox if he played half a season of poor defense.

            I agree, he wouldn't actually be more valuable since he's an awful defensive player (he'd hurt the team actually), but it's the principal of the thing. That's the reason A-Rod won. A-Rod is valuable in the field, at the plate and on the bases. Meanwhile, Papi is only valuable at the plate.
            "You make your name in the regular season, and your fame in the postseason." - Clyde Frazier

            "Beware of geeks bearing formulas." - Warren Buffet

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            • Stu
              All Star
              • Jun 2004
              • 7924

              #36
              Re: Alex Rodriguez wins AL MVP

              Originally posted by ehh
              That's the reason A-Rod won. A-Rod is valuable in the field, at the plate and on the bases. Meanwhile, Papi is only valuable at the plate.

              That's the problem I have with the whole thing. Frank Thomas, Juan Gonzalez, Mo Vaughn, Jason Giambi, etc were not valuable in the field or on the bases. In each of these years there were runners up who were 5 tool players: A-Rod, Nomar, Jeter and Griffey just to name a few. The writers repeatedly change their criteria as to what the MVP is. Again, I'm not saying A-Rod isn't deserving, just that the process should not be in the hands of the writers who let their agendas and bias take precedence over who is truely deserving.
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              • ehh
                Hall Of Fame
                • Mar 2003
                • 28962

                #37
                Re: Alex Rodriguez wins AL MVP

                But in those instances those players still played the field.

                When Giambi won the award he played 124 games at first base. That same season Frank Thomas had very similar numbers at the plate but played in just 30 games at first base, the rest at DH.

                Again, in 1998 Juan Gonzalez beat out Nomar, but Juan played 116 games in the field.

                In 1995 Mo Vaughn played in 138 games at first while barely beating out Albert Belle.


                None of them were good fielders nor 5-tool players, but they were fielders, not designated hitters.
                "You make your name in the regular season, and your fame in the postseason." - Clyde Frazier

                "Beware of geeks bearing formulas." - Warren Buffet

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                • Stu
                  All Star
                  • Jun 2004
                  • 7924

                  #38
                  Re: Alex Rodriguez wins AL MVP

                  Originally posted by ehh
                  None of them were good fielders nor 5-tool players, but they were fielders, not designated hitters.
                  So what? The DH is a position the American League. Ortiz shouldn't be penalized for it.
                  Sim Gaming Network

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                  • NYJets
                    Hall Of Fame
                    • Jul 2002
                    • 18637

                    #39
                    Re: Alex Rodriguez wins AL MVP

                    I don't see how anyone could say the Yankees are still a 90-95 win team without Arod. The numbers he put up and his defense at 3rd isn't easy to replace. Matsui you could replace a lot easier. And they just don't normally give closers MVP's, or Rivera would be in the running every year and Gagne would have won a couple.

                    I don't penalize Ortiz for being a DH. If he played first base that wouldn't help his case in my eyes. But I do count Arod's defensive play. And when the offensive numbers are so close, I look at other aspects like defense and baserunning, and Arod is much better at both of those.
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                    • ehh
                      Hall Of Fame
                      • Mar 2003
                      • 28962

                      #40
                      Re: Alex Rodriguez wins AL MVP

                      Originally posted by camulos
                      So what? The DH is a position the American League. Ortiz shouldn't be penalized for it.
                      Whether or not it's a position is debatable. It's why Edgar Martinez probably won't make it to the Hall of Fame. Alot of people don't consider it a real position. It's also debatable that he shouldn't be penalized for it. It's not like Millar was a Gold Glover this year or Olerud played a ton. He could have played alot of games over there.

                      I guarentee if any of those other guys (Mo Vaughn, Juan Gone, etc) had DH'ed for 120 games instead of playing the field they wouldn't have won the award.



                      I know you think the DH is a great rule and you're a big supporter of it, and I'm the polar opposite. I think it's an idiotic rule and maintain that no DH will ever be an MVP.
                      "You make your name in the regular season, and your fame in the postseason." - Clyde Frazier

                      "Beware of geeks bearing formulas." - Warren Buffet

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                      • Stu
                        All Star
                        • Jun 2004
                        • 7924

                        #41
                        Re: Alex Rodriguez wins AL MVP

                        Originally posted by ehh
                        I know you think the DH is a great rule and you're a big supporter of it, and I'm the polar opposite. I think it's an idiotic rule and maintain that no DH will ever be an MVP.
                        Whether or not people like it, it's still a rule which is why Ortiz shouldn't be penalized. The writers who decide the award use their bias in deciding it, which is never a good thing, whether or not you agree with them.
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                        • elicoleman
                          Im The Baby/Gotta Love Me
                          • Sep 2002
                          • 34655

                          #42
                          Re: Alex Rodriguez wins AL MVP

                          Originally posted by NYJets
                          I don't penalize Ortiz for being a DH. If he played first base that wouldn't help his case in my eyes. But I do count Arod's defensive play. And when the offensive numbers are so close, I look at other aspects like defense and baserunning, and Arod is much better at both of those.
                          Exactly. They mentioned this on MLB Radio earlier.

                          Also, Red Sox fans can make an argument for Ortiz with the numbers he put up and how clutch he was, but it's not fair for them to take away from what Arod did.
                          Originally posted by CardsFan27
                          This is the 3rd time John Calipari has been to his first Final Four!
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                          • Stu
                            All Star
                            • Jun 2004
                            • 7924

                            #43
                            Re: Alex Rodriguez wins AL MVP

                            Originally posted by elicoleman
                            Exactly. They mentioned this on MLB Radio earlier.

                            Also, Red Sox fans can make an argument for Ortiz with the numbers he put up and how clutch he was, but it's not fair for them to take away from what Arod did.
                            Which is the exact argument I would make, that Ortiz's clutch hitting more than accounts for Arod's defense. I do agree with you though, ARod is absolutely deserving of the MVP. I just don't like the way its decided, since the writers have obvious bias in their choices. That and it has a history of Red Sox players getting jobbed.
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                            • deeman11747
                              G-M*nnnn
                              • Feb 2003
                              • 3194

                              #44
                              Re: Alex Rodriguez wins AL MVP

                              Originally posted by camulos
                              Whether or not people like it, it's still a rule which is why Ortiz shouldn't be penalized. The writers who decide the award use their bias in deciding it, which is never a good thing, whether or not you agree with them.
                              Unfortunately, common sense tells me that the whole system of MVP voting is full of bias.... so saying that writers are just biased against the DH rule is inaccurate. Don't you think voters are less inclined to vote for a guy who he has a bad relationship with over someone else? So pretty much the whole thing is flawed.

                              If you bump up my A-Rod vs Ortiz thread I made in September, I thought Ortiz's bat was enough for him to be considered more valuable tha A-Rod's bat and glove. But in these past few weeks... I've watched a bunch of Yankee games and I finally noticed how much of an impact A-Rod made defensively... with a lot of plays saving runs in close games that we probably would have lost with any other person at 3B.


                              I'm not a big A-Rod fan... but both he and Ortiz had the exact same amount of Game Winning RBIs this year if you look up the stat which surprised me even though Ortiz had the big edge in close and late game situations.

                              Basically like a lot of writers said... A-Rod is more valuable over a whole season than Ortiz... but if I need one hitter up in a big spot... I'd take Ortiz in a heartbeat.

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                              • Stu
                                All Star
                                • Jun 2004
                                • 7924

                                #45
                                Re: Alex Rodriguez wins AL MVP

                                Originally posted by deeman11747
                                Unfortunately, common sense tells me that the whole system of MVP voting is full of bias.... so saying that writers are just biased against the DH rule is inaccurate. Don't you think voters are less inclined to vote for a guy who he has a bad relationship with over someone else? So pretty much the whole thing is flawed.
                                Agreed, see my comments earlier on Ted Williams and Pedro. Ted was notoriously hated by writers and thus didn't win the MVP when he won either of his triple crowns or batted .406. Pedro was very similar and the bias of a few writers cost him the MVP.

                                I don't think the voters are just biased against the DH rule, but the current voting system certainly highlights everything the voters are biased against. This MVP race was more about finding excuses not to give it to Ortiz rather than why to give it to A-Rod. It was the same argument when Pedro finished 2nd. (Not saying people are out to get the Red Sox, but these are the races that i've followed more closely so feel more qualified to comment on them)
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