Why doesn't anyone talk about Roger Clemens and steroids?

[mjb2124]

Re: Why doesn't anyone talk about Roger Clemens and steroids?

I have been saying for 2 years that Clemens must have done steroids at one time or another. When he left Boston he looked like he would be a 2 or 3 starter at best for the rest of his career. Instead he reeled off 2 consecutive Cy Young awards in 1997 & 1998.

Look at his stats throughout his career and I think you'll see that they're fairly consistent throughout. There really isn't a drastic jump in one year compared to the next. Even in one of his 2 losing seasons (right before he left for TOR), he was still quite good:

1996 for example
10-13
3.63 ERA
1.32 WHIP (higher than most years due to the worst walk total in his career)
257 K's
142 ERA+
5.15 was the league ERA

His worst stat season was perhaps in 1999 when he first went to NYY. If he was ever on them, I'd suspect late 90's, early 2000 would be the time.

If his stats really jumped at one point (ie: higher strikeout totals, lower hits/inning pitched, more CG's etc...) I'd be very suspicious. However, he's been consistenly good throughout his career.

[mjb2124]

Re: Why doesn't anyone talk about Roger Clemens and steroids?

Randy Johnson is on the juice too, because there is no way he could throw heat without them.

Julio Franco must be a massive 'roid freak. I mean come on, it's the ONLY possible way he could still be playing.

Add Greg Maddux to the list, he's too old to do anything without shooting up.

You might want to add Nolan Ryan and Satchel Paige to that list.

Ryan was throwing mid 90's in his 40's and Paige was throwing low to mid 90's in his mid 40's as well.

[snepp]

Re: Why doesn't anyone talk about Roger Clemens and steroids?

You might want to add Nolan Ryan and Satchel Paige to that list.

Ryan was throwing mid 90's in his 40's and Paige was throwing low to mid 90's in his mid 40's as well.

I mentioned Ryan in my first post, though not by name.

Paige is definately a good addition, that guy must have been taking every steroid available. [/immense sarcasm]

[countryboy]

Re: Why doesn't anyone talk about Roger Clemens and steroids?

This is getting out of control. Whose next? Sandy Koufax? Lets put Ryne Sandberg on the steroid list.

Those of you claiming that Clemens must be on steroids, what are you basing that off of? His stats?

I don't care if Bonds' stats were the same today as they were when he first got into the league. The reason I think he is guilty is because of the muscle mass that he added at his age, his head swelling up a couple of hat sizes, and the fact that he was involved with an organization that distributed steroids.

Any of you who think that Clemens took steroids believe that Bonds did as well? Or is Bonds innocent? Thats what I would like to know.

[mjb2124]

Re: Why doesn't anyone talk about Roger Clemens and steroids?

I mentioned Ryan in my first post, though not by name.

Must've missed they Ryan mention.

I think Paige and Ryan are the oldest. They both were bringing it at 46.

12 years later Paige actually came out of retirement at 58 and pitched 3 innings for the Kansas City Athletics. At 58!!! Had to be the 'roids.

[snepp]

Re: Why doesn't anyone talk about Roger Clemens and steroids?

12 years later Paige actually came out of retirement at 58 and pitched 3 innings for the Kansas City Athletics. At 58!!! Had to be the 'roids.

Every now and then I hear something about Ryan throwing BP for his minor league club and that he can still bring it if he really wants to.

[oo7Soxs]

Re: Why doesn't anyone talk about Roger Clemens and steroids?

Rather then saying the buzzword steriods maybe the better term or drug that Clemens and a heck of alot of other people were/are on is amphetamines. This is a drug still not tested for and would have a even greater effect on a pitchers game then steriods would.

FYI from dictionary.com: " . . frequently abused as a stimulant of the central nervous system"

Let's see the possible benefits:

being able to play at a high level an entire season without burning out

being able to work out harder without fatigue

being able to throw harder for longer periods of time

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I'm not saying Roger is on anything, just that we can't dismiss the fact Roger wasn't on anything.

[ZB9]

Re: Why doesn't anyone talk about Roger Clemens and steroids?

Roger Clemens wasnt a client of Balco. He didnt testify in front of a grand jury that he did steroids (Bonds and Giambi did)

Clemens hasnt had health problems which are a result of steroids (unlike Bonds and Giambi)

Clemens game has been the same since he broke into the league. Bonds all of a sudden increased his home run total by 20 in the year after he supposedly started doing steroids. Clemens game has been steadily consistent and the same throughout his entire career.

there is absolutely nothing linking Clemens to steroids.

[ZB9]

Re: Why doesn't anyone talk about Roger Clemens and steroids?

things like this grand jury testimony are the reason why Bonds is being linked to steroids.

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Track star's testimony linked Bonds to steroid use
Montgomery said BALCO owner named slugger

Lance Williams and Mark Fainaru-Wada, Chronicle Staff Writers
Thursday, June 24, 2004

San Francisco Giants slugger Barry Bonds obtained the steroid Winstrol from BALCO founder Victor Conte, track star Tim Montgomery told a federal grand jury last year.

Montgomery's testimony about Bonds is secondhand, a recounting of what Montgomery said Conte told him when the track star visited the Bay Area Laboratory Co-Operative in Burlingame in 2000 or 2001.

But Montgomery's claim that Bonds got banned substances at BALCO is corroborated by a statement that federal authorities say Conte himself made during a raid on the lab last year.

In an investigator's memo reviewed by The Chronicle, Conte is quoted as saying that during the 2003 baseball season, he gave Bonds an undetectable steroidlike drug called "the clear" and a testosterone cream. Conte said Bonds used both products regularly, according to the memo.

Internal Revenue Service investigator Jeff Novitzky reported that Conte told him that Bonds, through his trainer Greg Anderson, sought undetectable steroids out of concern about baseball's new steroid-testing program, which began in 2003.

Novitzky wrote that Conte named 27 athletes -- from professional football and baseball players to track and field stars -- who had been getting "the clear" and "the cream" from him.

After the September 2003 raid, Conte, Anderson and two other men associated with BALCO were indicted on steroid conspiracy charges.

The Chronicle reported in April that federal investigators had been told that Bonds had obtained steroids from BALCO. Montgomery's grand jury testimony and Conte's statement provide new details on those allegations.

Bonds has denied using steroids, saying that he took only Conte's nutritional supplements, including a product called ZMA.

"That's the first I've ever heard of that. I have reason to have serious doubts about the accuracy of all that," Bonds' attorney, Michael Rains, said about Montgomery's testimony. "I doubt very much that Conte would be talking about anything he's giving to anybody."

As to the investigator's memo, Rains said: "I have reason to believe that Conte didn't say what Novitzky claims he said in the memo ..."

Conte and Anderson have pleaded not guilty. Conte's lawyer, Robert Holley, has challenged the accuracy of the investigator's memo, saying he never named athletes. Holley declined to comment Wednesday.

Montgomery gave his testimony about Bonds when federal prosecutor Jeff Nedrow asked whether, on his visits to BALCO, Montgomery had seen any "traditional anabolic steroids," as opposed to the "clear," the substance he said Conte gave him in exchange for a ZMA endorsement.

Montgomery replied that in a locker above BALCO's weight room, Conte kept several steroids, including Winstrol, also known as Stanozolol. The drug, long popular with bodybuilders, can be taken via pill or injection. It is the steroid that disgraced Canadian sprinter Ben Johnson was found to have used before his gold-medal run at the 1988 Olympics.

Montgomery said Conte didn't give Winstrol to Olympians because it was so easily detected in drug screenings. "You would definitely get busted off of them steroids," he testified. Instead, Montgomery said Conte gave Winstrol to athletes in sports in which drug testing was lax or nonexistent.

"Mr. Conte has athletes from baseball to football to -- professional bodybuilding to, to -- you name it," Montgomery said.

"Any sport there is, Mr. Conte got someone in it ... he would brag on Barry Bonds, he would brag on Ronnie Coleman," he continued, referring to the 2003 "Mr. Olympia" bodybuilder.

The prosecutor asked: "Did he say he gave any steroids, Winstrol or any of the other ones to Mr. Bonds?"

"Yes, he did," Montgomery replied.

"Did he say specifically which ones?"

"Winstrol," Montgomery said.

The IRS investigator's memo quotes Conte as saying he was helping "several" players elude baseball's new drug-testing program by giving them undetectable steroids.

"Barry Bonds was one of the players that Anderson brought to Conte to obtain 'the clear' and 'the cream,' " the investigator wrote. "Bonds takes 'the clear' and 'the cream' on a regular basis." Athletes took each substance twice weekly for three weeks, then took a week off, Conte allegedly said.

The investigator also wrote that "Barry Bonds does not pay Conte for 'the clear' and 'the cream' that he receives. Bonds' payment is in the form of promotion for Conte's ZMA product."

[BatsareBugs]

Re: Why doesn't anyone talk about Roger Clemens and steroids?

Remember when Ensberg said the offense was up this year because some pitchers might be off the juice and people who used to throw blazing fastballs have nothing on them anymore? He did use the fact that more pitchers are getting caught with the testing than hitters.

But I really doubt the Rocket was on Steroids. I'd be shocked if he was.

[Lost Dog]

Re: Why doesn't anyone talk about Roger Clemens and steroids?

Of all the players that tested postive last year how many were pitchers?

[ZB9]

Re: Why doesn't anyone talk about Roger Clemens and steroids?

Of all the players that tested postive last year how many were pitchers?

lol Clemens was not one of them

[countryboy]

Re: Why doesn't anyone talk about Roger Clemens and steroids?

ZB9, not to get too far off the topic at hand, but I love your avatar.

That pic isn't worth a thousand words, more like $360. Damn, I love betting on the derby!!!!


And for the topic at hand, anyone find a link between Clemens and steroids, other than age and stats, and we'll discuss it. Until then, just enjoy the fact that you are getting to see one of the best pitchers to ever play the game.

[BGarrett7]

Re: Why doesn't anyone talk about Roger Clemens and steroids?

Of all the players that tested postive last year how many were pitchers?

Of the twelve players who tested positive under MLB's steroid policy last year, six were pitchers.

[SportsTop]

Re: Why doesn't anyone talk about Roger Clemens and steroids?

If anyone in there was ever a Bonds apologist and still thinks there is a remote chance that he didn't use steroids, then you need to read Game of Shadows. The overwhelming amount of circumstancial and factual information against Bonds is too much to ignore.

Also, to the comment about players from the Bay Area being the primary clients of BALCO....read the book and you'll understand why that is the case.

As for Clemens.....the only thing I think he could be guilty of ever using would be amphetamines and/or EPO (for recovery purposes). I think his body has been too old for a number of years now for steroids to not have some sort of adverse effect on him by now. A tendon or muscle would've had to have been damaged by now at his age if he would've used the true muscle building steroids.

I looked at Clemens' career numbers towards the end of last season and couldn't see anything too out of the ordinary, even after he left Boston (injuries played a major role in his last few seasons there).

There have been numerous pitchers who have continued to throw hard, put up very good numbers, and pitch over 200 innings at 39+.....Ryan, Seaver, Carlton, Johnson, Sutton....and the list goes on and on. This indicates that Clemens is not an anomaly.....while what Bonds has accomplished is truly out of the norm.