Is Nolan Ryan overrated?

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  • Vince
    Bow for Bau
    • Aug 2002
    • 26017

    #31
    Re: Is Nolan Ryan overrated?

    Originally posted by sportsdude
    that is the goal of the team. The goal of the pitcher is to not allow the batter an opportunity to reach base, either via a walk or a hit. ERA is often out of a player's control, eg. bad defense, incorrect score keeping, whereas whip is a much much better indicator of a good pitcher. There's a much better explanation of this in Moneyball, which I post but unfortunately I have to go to work soon.

    Bad defense will be counted on as an error, not as an earned run.

    I disagree big time in you saying ERA is an overrated stat.
    @ me or dap me

    http://twitter.com/52isthemike

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    • GBrushTWood
      Banned
      • Mar 2003
      • 1624

      #32
      Re: Is Nolan Ryan overrated?

      Saying ERA is an overrated stat is one of the most astoundingly stupid things I have heard in a while.

      Ditto for no-hitters. When you allow no hits, it pretty much means you aren't allowing runs (unless you walk > 4 in an inning), so it is the greatest performance that a pitcher can achieve in any one outing (next to a perfect game of course). You can argue about DIPS and fielders until you are blue in the face, but I happen to think pitchers have SOME ability to control where the ball is hit. No hitters = rule.

      Comment

      • faster
        MVP
        • Dec 2002
        • 2182

        #33
        Re: Is Nolan Ryan overrated?

        If you guys think pitchers have half of the heart and talent that Ryan you're nuts. Ryan walked guys because he didn't care if there was a guy on base. He'd throw hard and dare you to hit it. If he walked you, he'd strike out the next guy.

        I don't care how many guys he walked, very few of them lead to actual runs. When you have a 3.19 ERA, you aren't giving up runs. Walks mean NOTHING if you don't let the runner score... and he didn't.

        Ryan dominated every batter that stepped into the box against him. He'd throw inside on anyone, anytime. He was absolutely horrible team and many times single-handedly kept them in games.

        Overrated... give me a break. No one played harder, longer or knew the science of pitching like Ryan. You put him on a team like the Braves, the Yankees, the Red Sox of today and he would have been 28-4 every year.

        Pitchers today are half products of the fact that hitters today are not only poor, they're bad. Strikeouts are up, averages are down, the HR is cool, and nobody plays real baseball anymore. Now there is no hit and run, there's no stealing, and there's no manufacturing runs. Hitters are babied by umps and the game and they can sit 1 inch from the plate. If there's a ball near them they don't like, it's intentional and the pitcher is warned. Hitter are wearing freakin body armor on top of it all.

        Ryan overrated... ha... you wanna talk overrated, lets talk Schilling, Carpenter, Buerhle, Mussina, Wood, etc. bah, i'm done, this thread sickens me...
        "Well the NBA is in great hands but if I had to pick the single greatest player on the planet, I take Kobe Bryant without hesitation." - Michael Jordan, 2006

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        • deeman11747
          G-M*nnnn
          • Feb 2003
          • 3194

          #34
          Re: Is Nolan Ryan overrated?

          I think ERA is more valuable than WHIP. The object of the game is to keep men from scoring, not from reaching base. Reaching base just happens to often lead to scoring.

          There are guys who are every good at getting out of trouble and giving their team the same chance to win as if they had never let the men reach base by not letting them score... but its a tough arguement either way.

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          • TheLetterZ
            All Star
            • Jul 2002
            • 6752

            #35
            Re: Is Nolan Ryan overrated?

            Originally posted by penguit
            I don't care how many guys he walked, very few of them lead to actual runs. When you have a 3.19 ERA, you aren't giving up runs. Walks mean NOTHING if you don't let the runner score... and he didn't.
            But in the context of his era, a 3.19 ERA wasn't that impressive at all. He was giving up runs.

            Comment

            • glucklich
              Banned
              • Jun 2004
              • 4272

              #36
              Re: Is Nolan Ryan overrated?

              Originally posted by ZXLT
              But in the context of his era, a 3.19 ERA wasn't that impressive at all. He was giving up runs.
              3.19 was a good era then. It wasnt Pedro 1999 good or Bob Gibson 1968 good but 3.19 is excellent never the less.

              Comment

              • faster
                MVP
                • Dec 2002
                • 2182

                #37
                Re: Is Nolan Ryan overrated?

                Since when is 3.19 a bad lifetime ERA?

                Originally posted by ZXLT
                But in the context of his era, a 3.19 ERA wasn't that impressive at all. He was giving up runs.
                "Well the NBA is in great hands but if I had to pick the single greatest player on the planet, I take Kobe Bryant without hesitation." - Michael Jordan, 2006

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                • Brandon13
                  All Star
                  • Oct 2005
                  • 8915

                  #38
                  Re: Is Nolan Ryan overrated?

                  Originally posted by penguit
                  Since when is 3.19 a bad lifetime ERA?
                  Maybe if you played in the early 1900's. Even then I don't think it would be bad.

                  Comment

                  • TheLetterZ
                    All Star
                    • Jul 2002
                    • 6752

                    #39
                    Re: Is Nolan Ryan overrated?

                    Originally posted by penguit
                    Since when is 3.19 a bad lifetime ERA?
                    I didn't say it was bad, but his lifetime ERA+ was only 112. I'm not arguing that he was a bad pitcher; only that he isn't among the best of all-time.

                    Comment

                    • faster
                      MVP
                      • Dec 2002
                      • 2182

                      #40
                      Re: Is Nolan Ryan overrated?

                      Isn't among the best? Ok, fine, I'll give you that. No, he's not in the top 10.

                      To put it into perspective though, let's compare Nolan Ryan's career ERA versus today's current active career ERAs. Keep in mind today's pitchers get taken out earlier and rarely pitch into late innings... well shoot... don't even take that into account... here's TODAY...

                      http://www.baseball-reference.com/le...A_active.shtml

                      Nolan Ryan would be 4th........

                      Originally posted by ZXLT
                      I didn't say it was bad, but his lifetime ERA+ was only 112. I'm not arguing that he was a bad pitcher; only that he isn't among the best of all-time.
                      "Well the NBA is in great hands but if I had to pick the single greatest player on the planet, I take Kobe Bryant without hesitation." - Michael Jordan, 2006

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                      • dce1228
                        MVP
                        • Mar 2003
                        • 1016

                        #41
                        Re: Is Nolan Ryan overrated?

                        Ryan was more thrower than pitcher. He was the anti-Maddux. He tried to throw unhittable pitch after unhittable pitch, regardless of who was at the plate or the situation... and the result was a lot of strike-outs, walks and very few hits, and his life-time line shows it... not a Hell of a lot more wins than losses and no CY YOUNG awards.

                        Talk about an over-rated stat... how about the strikeout. Give me a 4-3 grounder on the first pitch thrown any day. As a culture we've been reared on too much red-meat, not everyone needs to be 'blown away' at the plate when there are easier and smarter ways of getting the job done. Give me a Greg Maddux any day.

                        And a career ERA of 3.19 means you're giving up about 3.19 runs a game, not 0 runs a game.
                        Last edited by dce1228; 05-31-2006, 12:03 AM.

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                        • faster
                          MVP
                          • Dec 2002
                          • 2182

                          #42
                          Re: Is Nolan Ryan overrated?

                          Yep, and that 3.19 would sadly be 4th versus active pitchers... so he was clearly giving up runs left and right... my god people....
                          "Well the NBA is in great hands but if I had to pick the single greatest player on the planet, I take Kobe Bryant without hesitation." - Michael Jordan, 2006

                          Comment

                          • Stu
                            All Star
                            • Jun 2004
                            • 7924

                            #43
                            Re: Is Nolan Ryan overrated?

                            Originally posted by penguit
                            Isn't among the best? Ok, fine, I'll give you that. No, he's not in the top 10.

                            To put it into perspective though, let's compare Nolan Ryan's career ERA versus today's current active career ERAs. Keep in mind today's pitchers get taken out earlier and rarely pitch into late innings... well shoot... don't even take that into account... here's TODAY...

                            http://www.baseball-reference.com/le...A_active.shtml

                            Nolan Ryan would be 4th........
                            But you have to understand what ERA+ is showing. It compares a pitchers ERA to the league ERA with 100 being the league average. While his career ERA might look impressive compared to todays pitchers, a career ERA+ of 112 shows that his ERA wasn't really anything special in comparing him to his peers.
                            Sim Gaming Network

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                            • Stu
                              All Star
                              • Jun 2004
                              • 7924

                              #44
                              Re: Is Nolan Ryan overrated?

                              Originally posted by penguit
                              Yep, and that 3.19 would sadly be 4th versus active pitchers... so he was clearly giving up runs left and right... my god people....
                              He had a 3.19 ERA when the league ERA was 3.57. Not that impressive...
                              Sim Gaming Network

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                              • TheLetterZ
                                All Star
                                • Jul 2002
                                • 6752

                                #45
                                Re: Is Nolan Ryan overrated?

                                Cam's exactly right. Compare Ryan's ERA+ to active pitchers instead. His 112 has him tied for 30th with Wilson Alvarez. I'm not saying that Alvarez was anywhere near as good a pitcher as Ryan, but it clearly shows that Ryan's ERA wasn't that impressive.

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