"Clutch Doesnt Exist"

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  • mjb2124
    Hall Of Fame
    • Aug 2002
    • 13649

    #16
    Re: "Clutch Doesnt Exist"

    Originally posted by Blzer
    At the same time, I don't think there is any such thing as home field advantage outside of the playing field. What I mean by that is that to me, at least when I play... boos and cheers mean crap. Don't know if anyone agrees with me there too.
    Much different at the MLB level. I think home field advantage is huge for a few reasons:

    1. Players don't have to travel. They're at home in the comforts of their own bed. Don't underestimate how important that is.

    2. Having the crowd behind a team can help swing momentum. It can rattle the opposing pitcher as much as it can pump the home team.

    3. To a lesser degree, the difference in fields. Home teams do what they want with fields (ie: ground ball pitcher, longer grass). Not to mention that the quirks at every field that the home team can use to it's advantage.



    As for clutch not existing, I don't agree entirely. It's something that's very difficult to judge and as Camulos stated, something that isn't a consistent attribute for any one player.

    Comment

    • bergie56
      T*rg*t F**ld
      • Mar 2004
      • 3984

      #17
      Re: "Clutch Doesnt Exist"

      Originally posted by joeboo
      Much different at the MLB level. I think home field advantage is huge for a few reasons:

      1. Players don't have to travel. They're at home in the comforts of their own bed. Don't underestimate how important that is.

      2. Having the crowd behind a team can help swing momentum. It can rattle the opposing pitcher as much as it can pump the home team.

      3. To a lesser degree, the difference in fields. Home teams do what they want with fields (ie: ground ball pitcher, longer grass). Not to mention that the quirks at every field that the home team can use to it's advantage.



      As for clutch not existing, I don't agree entirely. It's something that's very difficult to judge and as Camulos stated, something that isn't a consistent attribute for any one player.
      Although I feel that the place is a disgrace, the Metrodome is gives the Twins an awesome homefield advantage. The place is extremely loud and the dome still gives players fits from time to time.

      Comment

      • Stu
        All Star
        • Jun 2004
        • 7924

        #18
        Re: "Clutch Doesnt Exist"

        Originally posted by bergie56
        Although I feel that the place is a disgrace, the Metrodome is gives the Twins an awesome homefield advantage. The place is extremely loud and the dome still gives players fits from time to time.
        Yah, like the bomb David Ortiz hit off the outfield speaker when the Red Sox got swept there earlier this season. Would've been an upper deck shot but hit the speaker and dropped for a single. The worst thing is, if they had caught it, he would've been out.
        Sim Gaming Network

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        • X*Cell
          Collab: xcellnoah@gmail
          • Sep 2002
          • 8107

          #19
          Re: "Clutch Doesnt Exist"

          Originally posted by SPTO
          Ok Blzer let me ask you this:

          Was Kirk Gibson's HR in game 1 of the '88 World Series not clutch?

          Here was a man who had NO legs. He couldn't drive with his legs he had to swing with his arms and torso and hope for the best. In a situation like that where it was a 1 in a million shot of him hitting a HR, he actually does it.

          If that isn't clutch then I don't know what is.
          Guys hit homeruns all the time... but if we are talking about Kirk Gibson... then lets talk about guys that have the same ability of hitting a HR as he did... Scott Podsednik, Royce Clayton, David Eckstein, and Juan Pierre. Yet... some of those guys HAVE hit homeruns. Yes, like one, but they have. They simply got the homerun in less "clutch" spots. That term is coined in Gibson's case because it happened to be a crucial spot in the WORLD SERIES... but really its just a different situation.

          Eckstein or Pierre aren't heroes for their homeruns because their homeruns didn't come in a World Series, or crucial world series at-bat.

          When "big shot Rob" Horry was hitting "clutch" 3's, they are celebrated because it was in the "clutch" situation. However, we expect all of our players to hit the 3-pointer if they attempt to take one. That is the idea of the game, score the ball.

          So I would have to say myself... clutch "the time frame" exists, but clutch "the personal achievement" does NOT. Some players simply have delivered within the time period that we call "clutch" more than others, and therefore are called clutch players... It's kind of stupid.

          Only "clutch" personal achievement in history, was Babe Ruth calling his shot in the 1932 world series... and that hasn't even been proven. Oh, and Roy Hobbs knocking the ball into the Lighting in the biggest game of the season for the New York Knights in "The Natural".
          SAN ANTONIO SPURS

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          • bergie56
            T*rg*t F**ld
            • Mar 2004
            • 3984

            #20
            Re: "Clutch Doesnt Exist"

            Originally posted by camulos
            Yah, like the bomb David Ortiz hit off the outfield speaker when the Red Sox got swept there earlier this season. Would've been an upper deck shot but hit the speaker and dropped for a single. The worst thing is, if they had caught it, he would've been out.
            Nope the ball is dead once it hits the speaker now. That rule has changed. Also I like how the clutch list you posted above has two great Twins and another who was solid when he was here. Coincidence, I think not.

            Comment

            • BGarrett7
              All Star
              • Jul 2003
              • 5890

              #21
              Re: "Clutch Doesnt Exist"

              Originally posted by camulos
              If you get a chance, read the chapter that deals with this in Baseball Between the Numbers. It gives a good, easy to read overview of the whole argument.
              That was going to be my only input, as well.

              Comment

              • Stu
                All Star
                • Jun 2004
                • 7924

                #22
                Re: "Clutch Doesnt Exist"

                Originally posted by bergie56
                Nope the ball is dead once it hits the speaker now. That rule has changed. Also I like how the clutch list you posted above has two great Twins and another who was solid when he was here. Coincidence, I think not.
                Really? I thought they had different ground rules for the OF speakers than the IF speakers. I could've sworn the ball was in play. It should at least have been a ground rule double, even though the ball would've been way out. Here's an article from the Globe that said it's in play:

                Sim Gaming Network

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                • SPTO
                  binging
                  • Feb 2003
                  • 68046

                  #23
                  Re: "Clutch Doesnt Exist"

                  Originally posted by xcelldarim31

                  So I would have to say myself... clutch "the time frame" exists, but clutch "the personal achievement" does NOT. Some players simply have delivered within the time period that we call "clutch" more than others, and therefore are called clutch players... It's kind of stupid.

                  Only "clutch" personal achievement in history, was Babe Ruth calling his shot in the 1932 world series... and that hasn't even been proven. Oh, and Roy Hobbs knocking the ball into the Lighting in the biggest game of the season for the New York Knights in "The Natural".
                  So you're saying a guy that could barely walk to the plate, much less swing a competent bat didn't achieve a personal clutch moment? Remember Gibson was so injured that he didn't have a single AB the rest of the series. His only contribution to the '88 WS was that HR.

                  If that isn't a personal achievement of a great magnitude then I don't know what is.
                  Member of the Official OS Bills Backers Club

                  "Baseball is the most important thing that doesn't matter at all" - Robert B. Parker

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                  • bergie56
                    T*rg*t F**ld
                    • Mar 2004
                    • 3984

                    #24
                    Re: "Clutch Doesnt Exist"

                    Well according to everything I have heard and read, they changed the rule this year where a ball is dead as soon as it hits a speaker. I think that the Big Papi shot would have been the longest HR in the Metrodome ever. I saw the speaker that hit this past weekend and have no doubt that it could have reached the curtain in the upper deck.

                    Comment

                    • X*Cell
                      Collab: xcellnoah@gmail
                      • Sep 2002
                      • 8107

                      #25
                      Re: "Clutch Doesnt Exist"

                      Originally posted by SPTO
                      So you're saying a guy that could barely walk to the plate, much less swing a competent bat didn't achieve a personal clutch moment? Remember Gibson was so injured that he didn't have a single AB the rest of the series. His only contribution to the '88 WS was that HR.

                      If that isn't a personal achievement of a great magnitude then I don't know what is.
                      no, its a fantastic achievement... a story you tell your kids for generations... but I'm saying is that if it wasn't a clutch spot in the game and Kirk Gibson came in to pinch-hit, he wouldn't have hit a homerun, because he saves that for clutch performances only? I think he would have (or it really doesn't matter) hit a homerun in any circumstance... it just happened to be the most crucial point of the 1988 world series.
                      SAN ANTONIO SPURS

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                      • Blzer
                        Resident film pundit
                        • Mar 2004
                        • 42520

                        #26
                        Re: "Clutch Doesnt Exist"

                        Originally posted by joeboo
                        Much different at the MLB level. I think home field advantage is huge for a few reasons:

                        1. Players don't have to travel. They're at home in the comforts of their own bed. Don't underestimate how important that is.

                        2. Having the crowd behind a team can help swing momentum. It can rattle the opposing pitcher as much as it can pump the home team.

                        3. To a lesser degree, the difference in fields. Home teams do what they want with fields (ie: ground ball pitcher, longer grass). Not to mention that the quirks at every field that the home team can use to it's advantage.



                        As for clutch not existing, I don't agree entirely. It's something that's very difficult to judge and as Camulos stated, something that isn't a consistent attribute for any one player.
                        Remember, I agree with #3. I said "outside of the playing field" isn't really so homey when it comes to success.

                        Granted, I do see a nice coincidence of Game 7's going to the home team, but for now... I'm going to just call them coincidences. I also understand #1, but most veterans are just so used to it, that if it's within their division, it doesn't really matter. The only way that I think it would greatly differ is if a West Coast team travels East. They lose time, and their "body clock" isn't accustomed to the certain hours they need to be awakened for (earlier hours).




                        While there is a difference in atmosphere between the regular season and the playoffs, here's a list of teams that have better away records so far this year:




                        Detroit Tigers
                        Oakland Athletics
                        Los Angeles Angels [of Anaheim]
                        New York Mets
                        Atlanta Braves
                        Philadelphia Phillies
                        Washington Nationals
                        Cincinnati Reds
                        Chicago Cubs
                        San Diego Padres
                        Arizona Diamondbacks
                        Colorado Rockies





                        While there's a much bigger amount of teams just plain outwinning their road record, there are still a few that drop below the mark. Can we find the correlation? Well, I can see it in Detroit in the beginning (smaller fanbase). This same reason would possibly go to teams like Oakland, Atlanta, Washington, Arizona, and Colorado. Then there are the Mets and Angels... can't think of their losses at home (perhaps they just got beat?). The Phillies and the Reds don't quite have the pitching to satisfy their ballparks like teams that come in have. And San Diego built their team around power at one point... power that can't quite lift it out of their ballpark 100% of the time that it should have. I can't find a reason for Chicago, since they are of the top four homey fanbases.



                        Just pointing something out. I am convinced that the playing field (and the "welcomeness" of being at home) are real reasons for the difference between a win and a loss, but I can't quite understand the crowd thing just yet. At least... not in baseball. I can see where somebody may be MOTIVATED to try and go the extra distance, but sometimes that leads to failure (read one of my posts about clutch hitting earlier to see what I mean).

                        Here's something I like to try and do: If you're in a pressure situation as the pitcher on the road, pretend like that crowd is cheering for you.
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                        • Blzer
                          Resident film pundit
                          • Mar 2004
                          • 42520

                          #27
                          Re: "Clutch Doesnt Exist"

                          Originally posted by xcelldarim31
                          no, its a fantastic achievement... a story you tell your kids for generations... but I'm saying is that if it wasn't a clutch spot in the game and Kirk Gibson came in to pinch-hit, he wouldn't have hit a homerun, because he saves that for clutch performances only? I think he would have (or it really doesn't matter) hit a homerun in any circumstance... it just happened to be the most crucial point of the 1988 world series.
                          Just like Willie Mays' catch. It is known to be the best baseball defensive play of all time. I made a post earlier this year in the thread congratulating Aaron Rowand's catch that basically stated I've seen better catches before. I keep bringing up a Bill Hall catch that I saw earlier this year, but I can't retrieve it from a site anywhere. I guess it just wasn't that known because it's a "young rook" on the "Brew Crew".

                          But, Mays' catch... I suppose... was "clutch". It came in the World Series, and the way that he brought it back in to hold the runners really assisted into making the catch seem that much better.
                          Samsung PN60F8500 PDP / Anthem MRX 720 / Klipsch RC-62 II / Klipsch RF-82 II (x2) / Insignia NS-B2111 (x2) / SVS PC13-Ultra / SVS SB-2000 / Sony MDR-7506 Professional / Audio-Technica ATH-R70x / Sony PS3 & PS4 / DirecTV HR44-500 / DarbeeVision DVP-5000 / Panamax M5400-PM / Elgato HD60

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                          • RedRooster
                            Rookie
                            • Mar 2003
                            • 346

                            #28
                            Re: "Clutch Doesnt Exist"

                            If it can't be measured, it doesn't exist. Just like "heart" and "grit" and "chemistry".

                            Comment

                            • X*Cell
                              Collab: xcellnoah@gmail
                              • Sep 2002
                              • 8107

                              #29
                              Re: "Clutch Doesnt Exist"

                              Originally posted by RedRooster
                              If it can't be measured, it doesn't exist. Just like "heart" and "grit" and "chemistry".
                              true that my man... as a huge statistic dude, I first have to put everything away, and recognize that there ARE things that CAN'T be measured... and we'll never know who is the best purely off statistics.
                              SAN ANTONIO SPURS

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                              • Cletus
                                MVP
                                • Oct 2004
                                • 1771

                                #30
                                Re: "Clutch Doesnt Exist"

                                Originally posted by Blzer
                                Just like Willie Mays' catch. It is known to be the best baseball defensive play of all time. I made a post earlier this year in the thread congratulating Aaron Rowand's catch that basically stated I've seen better catches before. I keep bringing up a Bill Hall catch that I saw earlier this year, but I can't retrieve it from a site anywhere. I guess it just wasn't that known because it's a "young rook" on the "Brew Crew".

                                But, Mays' catch... I suppose... was "clutch". It came in the World Series, and the way that he brought it back in to hold the runners really assisted into making the catch seem that much better.

                                the thing that was great about Mays catch was that it was in the Polo Grounds, which had more CF ground to cover than any field i've ever heard of. Of course, I've never seen the Polo Grounds, but from everything I've heard CF was huge. The fact that it happened in the WS doesn't hurt the legacy of it either. Clutch to me is just the ability to be confident and a good hitter. Kirk Gibson's HR to me was almost divine intervention. The guy couldn't run and most of the power is in your legs. But I'm sure when Gibson came up he knew he was going to get a hit. Clutch can be measured by a person's confidence, ability and nerves.

                                Home field advantage, to me, has more to do with the field than the fans. Every field has it's nuances that the home teams know about. I think you also get confidence from playing at home because you know it so well.
                                PSN:BrrbisBrr

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