"Clutch Doesnt Exist"

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  • X*Cell
    Collab: xcellnoah@gmail
    • Sep 2002
    • 8107

    #61
    Re: "Clutch Doesnt Exist"

    Originally posted by DrJones
    The 4th quarter comeback stat doesn't mean much to me without context.

    The QB's with the most 4th quarter comebacks during the last 10 years: Jake Plummer and Peyton Manning.
    plus... doesn't that only mean that in the first 3 quarters, they aren't cutting is like they should?

    That's why I don't like that stat.
    SAN ANTONIO SPURS

    Comment

    • Beantown
      #DoYourJob
      • Feb 2005
      • 31523

      #62
      Re: "Clutch Doesnt Exist"

      Originally posted by Longhorn6
      Tell that to David Ortiz.
      I just wanted to congratulate Big Papi, who has had two walk-off hits since this thread was created.

      I 10 walk-off homeruns, and multiple walk-off singles and doubles in his career isn't clutch...then no, it doesn't exsist.

      Comment

      • X*Cell
        Collab: xcellnoah@gmail
        • Sep 2002
        • 8107

        #63
        Re: "Clutch Doesnt Exist"

        Originally posted by Longhorn6
        I just wanted to congratulate Big Papi, who has had two walk-off hits since this thread was created.

        I 10 walk-off homeruns, and multiple walk-off singles and doubles in his career isn't clutch...then no, it doesn't exsist.
        He's unreal... that walk-off 3-run homer tonight was unbelievable... once Cora reached base, I knew the save was blown, because I knew Papi would deliver. If he doesn't get MVP I have no faith in the league anymore. He deserves it 100%... no-one else compares.

        Sucks that in the post-game interview you could not understand 1 word he said though.
        SAN ANTONIO SPURS

        Comment

        • DrJones
          All Star
          • Mar 2003
          • 9109

          #64
          Re: "Clutch Doesnt Exist"

          Originally posted by Longhorn6
          I just wanted to congratulate Big Papi, who has had two walk-off hits since this thread was created.

          I 10 walk-off homeruns, and multiple walk-off singles and doubles in his career isn't clutch...then no, it doesn't exsist.
          Walk-off doubles?
          Originally posted by Thrash13
          Dr. Jones was right in stating that. We should have believed him.
          Originally posted by slickdtc
          DrJones brings the stinky cheese is what we've all learned from this debacle.
          Originally posted by Kipnis22
          yes your fantasy world when your proven wrong about 95% of your post

          Comment

          • eXperiment63
            MVP
            • Mar 2004
            • 3077

            #65
            Re: "Clutch Doesnt Exist"

            It's 11 walkoff homers now BTW. ;P

            and DrJ, you could in theory, get a walk-off double. If the game is tied and a runnr onf irst. If Ortiz reaches 2B before the runner scores from first he could have a 'walkoff double'.

            Comment

            • CMH
              Making you famous
              • Oct 2002
              • 26203

              #66
              Re: "Clutch Doesnt Exist"

              Is David Ortiz clutch or is he just a great hitter?

              I tend to believe he is a great hitter so of course he'll succeed in "clutch" situations. There are many times this season that Ortiz has failed in "clutch" situations.
              "It may well be that we spectators, who are not divinely gifted as athletes, are the only ones able to truly see, articulate and animate the experience of the gift we are denied. And that those who receive and act out the gift of athletic genius must, perforce, be blind and dumb about it -- and not because blindness and dumbness are the price of the gift, but because they are its essence." - David Foster Wallace

              "You'll not find more penny-wise/pound-foolish behavior than in Major League Baseball." - Rob Neyer

              Comment

              • Stu
                All Star
                • Jun 2004
                • 7924

                #67
                Re: "Clutch Doesnt Exist"

                Originally posted by YankeePride_YP
                Is David Ortiz clutch or is he just a great hitter?

                I tend to believe he is a great hitter so of course he'll succeed in "clutch" situations. There are many times this season that Ortiz has failed in "clutch" situations.
                Agreed. People still don't understand that it's not that clutch doesn't exist, just that it's not an attribute players display consistently. Ortiz is the exception, not the rule.
                Sim Gaming Network

                Comment

                • nyyanksfan20
                  MVP
                  • Feb 2003
                  • 1650

                  #68
                  Re: "Clutch Doesnt Exist"

                  Originally posted by YankeePride_YP
                  Is David Ortiz clutch or is he just a great hitter?

                  I tend to believe he is a great hitter so of course he'll succeed in "clutch" situations. There are many times this season that Ortiz has failed in "clutch" situations.
                  Well thats part of the game. Great hitters fail 7 out of 10 times.
                  Yankees
                  Cowboys
                  Knicks
                  Rangers

                  Comment

                  • eXperiment63
                    MVP
                    • Mar 2004
                    • 3077

                    #69
                    Re: "Clutch Doesnt Exist"

                    Here is a stat to all you non-believers.

                    Since the end 2004(playoffs included) Ortiz has been to the plate in 19 walk-off situations... Can you guess how many of those situations he has reached base in? 16 of them. 16/19.... CLUTCH!

                    Comment

                    • CMH
                      Making you famous
                      • Oct 2002
                      • 26203

                      #70
                      Re: "Clutch Doesnt Exist"

                      Originally posted by eXperiment63
                      Here is a stat to all you non-believers.

                      Since the end 2004(playoffs included) Ortiz has been to the plate in 19 walk-off situations... Can you guess how many of those situations he has reached base in? 16 of them. 16/19.... CLUTCH!
                      Terribly small sample size.

                      Hey guess what. In the last 30 games Chase Utley has hit in guess how many games...30.

                      CLUTCH!
                      "It may well be that we spectators, who are not divinely gifted as athletes, are the only ones able to truly see, articulate and animate the experience of the gift we are denied. And that those who receive and act out the gift of athletic genius must, perforce, be blind and dumb about it -- and not because blindness and dumbness are the price of the gift, but because they are its essence." - David Foster Wallace

                      "You'll not find more penny-wise/pound-foolish behavior than in Major League Baseball." - Rob Neyer

                      Comment

                      • Briman123
                        MVP
                        • Oct 2004
                        • 1361

                        #71
                        Re: "Clutch Doesnt Exist"

                        Originally posted by YankeePride_YP
                        Terribly small sample size.

                        Hey guess what. In the last 30 games Chase Utley has hit in guess how many games...30.

                        CLUTCH!
                        Clutch:

                        adj. Informal
                        Being or occurring in a tense or critical situation: won the championship by sinking a clutch putt.
                        Tending to be successful in tense or critical situations: The coach relied on her clutch pitcher.

                        Chase Utley is not Clutch, more likely to fall under "consistent"
                        18-1 hell of a season regardless

                        Comment

                        • TerpsJunkie
                          Pro
                          • Apr 2003
                          • 792

                          #72
                          Re: "Clutch Doesnt Exist"

                          I think the term clutch should only be considered when the player's stats in clutch situations exceed their stats in normal conditions.

                          Comment

                          • CMH
                            Making you famous
                            • Oct 2002
                            • 26203

                            #73
                            Re: "Clutch Doesnt Exist"

                            Originally posted by Briman123
                            Clutch:

                            adj. Informal
                            Being or occurring in a tense or critical situation: won the championship by sinking a clutch putt.
                            Tending to be successful in tense or critical situations: The coach relied on her clutch pitcher.

                            Chase Utley is not Clutch, more likely to fall under "consistent"
                            Exactly my point.

                            The stats being used to show that Ortiz is clutch are too small to be consistant or even critical in terms of value. Many players can have a stretch of performing well in 19 at-bats no matter the situation.

                            Utley has a 33 game hitting streak. Does that make him a Hall Of Famer all of a sudden? No.

                            So, how does someone's performance in 19 at-bats tell you what type of player they are?


                            edit: Being or occurring in a tense or critical situation? Isn't that just your batting average and stats in close/late situations? Why are we sepearting close/late from close/early? Why is a player that hits the game-winning homerun in the 3rd inning not clutch but the guy who did it in the ninth is?
                            Last edited by CMH; 08-02-2006, 06:17 AM.
                            "It may well be that we spectators, who are not divinely gifted as athletes, are the only ones able to truly see, articulate and animate the experience of the gift we are denied. And that those who receive and act out the gift of athletic genius must, perforce, be blind and dumb about it -- and not because blindness and dumbness are the price of the gift, but because they are its essence." - David Foster Wallace

                            "You'll not find more penny-wise/pound-foolish behavior than in Major League Baseball." - Rob Neyer

                            Comment

                            • Blzer
                              Resident film pundit
                              • Mar 2004
                              • 42520

                              #74
                              Re: "Clutch Doesnt Exist"

                              Originally posted by TerpsJunkie
                              I think the term clutch should only be considered when the player's stats in clutch situations exceed their stats in normal conditions.
                              Perhaps, but I still wouldn't consider them "clutch". Remember that there's a good chance that... meh, nevermind, I've said it earlier in this thread, and I'll find it again. Hold on.
                              Samsung PN60F8500 PDP / Anthem MRX 720 / Klipsch RC-62 II / Klipsch RF-82 II (x2) / Insignia NS-B2111 (x2) / SVS PC13-Ultra / SVS SB-2000 / Sony MDR-7506 Professional / Audio-Technica ATH-R70x / Sony PS3 & PS4 / DirecTV HR44-500 / DarbeeVision DVP-5000 / Panamax M5400-PM / Elgato HD60

                              Comment

                              • Blzer
                                Resident film pundit
                                • Mar 2004
                                • 42520

                                #75
                                Re: "Clutch Doesnt Exist"

                                Okay, I think this is the post:



                                Originally posted by Blzer
                                There's a difference between being "clutch", and hitting the right pitch at the right time.

                                Every hit, home run, and at bat is independent. There's nothing that says a pro ball player can't hit .600 in a year, let alone hit a home run every game (or every at bat). Sometimes people will have a "hot bat", but it's because they've found their stroke for a few games. It has nothing to do with a real "hot bat", though.


                                At the same time... some players are clutch only because they don't CHOKE during pressure situations. It's not that they get "better" per se, but they don't choke unlike others. Also, if you have runners in scoring position, you have the advantage of a better average (or opportunity to do something) for several reasons anyway: 1) The pitcher is throwing from the stretch (less velocity, less movement); 2) You have a better chance to keep your average up because of the potential sacrifice fly... I know that sounds small, but this gives players an incentive to try and hit the ball in the air. This results in a few shots over the outfielders' head, including home runs; 3) Infield tight, hitter's delight. Runner on 3rd in a close game, they're pinched in. You have a nice shot for a poke there, also.




                                Most players SHOULD be "clutch"... where their chance to deliver with runners in scoring position is greater than their overall average. When you're not... well... just remember that in 10 at bats, you can get 10 more hits. ALL hits are independent.

                                There should be a formula (or very good reason) as to WHY players do not hit about .380 in a season, and it will have to do with the amount of players on the field, their spread, and their amount of ground cover.
                                Samsung PN60F8500 PDP / Anthem MRX 720 / Klipsch RC-62 II / Klipsch RF-82 II (x2) / Insignia NS-B2111 (x2) / SVS PC13-Ultra / SVS SB-2000 / Sony MDR-7506 Professional / Audio-Technica ATH-R70x / Sony PS3 & PS4 / DirecTV HR44-500 / DarbeeVision DVP-5000 / Panamax M5400-PM / Elgato HD60

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